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ceebo


Apr 10, 2012, 6:20 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Woman climbers, arm strength [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
You realize you are posting in the beginners forum right? Yes a beginner needs to focus solely on technique, the strength can come later, whereas focusing on strength too early leads to ingraining poor technique the majority of the time. most people are susceptible to it.

Where did you get that conclusion from?. I have never came across solid evidence from people who have tested this indepth. I have seen new climbers with no help doing just that, im yet to see a climber with good guidence have their strength ruine their learning of technique as you imply.

How can you expect them to learn what feels efficient if its all easy for them?. These links below kinde demonstrate how being strong would alow a climber to skip what would be considered ''good technique''. Woods is clearly just pissing the problems for fun, new strong climbers may attempt a less gracefull version on a lower level with lack of guidence. The guidence is to put them on a level of climbing where he benifit of technique can be felt.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKruqscrzT4


hannah.wolfmom


Apr 10, 2012, 6:59 PM
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Re: [ShannonT] Woman climbers, arm strength [In reply to]
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<
ShannonT wrote:
I've just recently started climbing ALOT and find i have no pull strength which is a pain as i find it hard to do overhang bolder problems. Honestly i can hardly do 2 pull ups.

What shall i do, i'm kind of needing a training programme but don't know where to start.Frown
>

I like this question... I haven't been ciimbing that long, only a little over a year but I can consistently lead most 5.9 sport routes, and a lot of 10's. I really fell in love with climbing. I know it's annoying to bring up the length of time climbing : grade ratio, but I think it has some value here. When I am suplementing "just climbing" with strength training, I can more consistently climb .10's. Maybe there are some people out there who climbed .10's their first season without doing any training, but I am not one of those people. So, from one noob to another...

I very often get "oh, just climb and you'll get better" from people, mostly guys, but that hasn't been my experience. When I am doing strength training consistently, basic push ups and (really simple, often assisted) hangboard exercises, and focused ab workouts, I can climb harder and more fun routes. The focused ab workout have really helped maintain tension on a lot of routes, and especially traversing moves. It's really improved my balance and footwork, so I can push down on weirder, less secure, footholds, with more strength. I love yoga as a recovery workout, and it develops more awareness for how my body works, where my balance is, what muscles to shift... the ecstasy of movement definitely translates to climbing!

I lose muscle mass really quickly, maybe because I am a vegetarian, so I have found that even climbing 2-3 times a week doesn't always equal strength or muscle maintenance. Maybe there is because climbing can require more strength in focused muscle groups to complete certain moves, muscle groups you might not "hit" as hard if you lift just your body weight.

A big Yes! to focusing on technique early on, but there are some really helpful things about muscle training.

I find it really interesting that most climber guys tell me not to do strength training (except for my boyfriend, yay), but I've never gotten that advice from a lady climber. As far as the gender dynamics of this question go, I ran a question by a coworker of mine who also owns a crossfit gym. "Do you think people don't tell women to do weight training becasuse it's considered 'unfeminine' or they don't want them to succeed?" His answer was a pretty quick "yes". It was intimidating and foreign to do strength training for me was a chic, but when I started to see my climbing improving and my pain while climbing go down, it's a no-brainer. I have to draw on that awareness sometimes to keep doing strength training. I have to rely more on what I know about what my limits are, and less on what people tell me I "need to be doing".

Cute story: there is a really beautiful female trainer who is always encouraging women to do weight-bearing exercises at her gym. When her clients say "but I don't want to bulk up." she says "do I look bulky to you?" muscle tone isn't always unattractive.

oh, also, even if you can't do 2 pullups now, don't give up! If you can't do a pullup, just hold a hang with bent arms for as long as you can. Start where you are, and things will improve! I did pushups on my knees for a long, long, time, and now I can do a bunch from my toes, with weights! It's really humbling to do things that seem "easy" to other people, but keep pushing yourself!

As far as the flame and ego wars on the rc. go... fuckit. everybody wants to help each other out by giving each other advice, but it is a little much when everyone insists they are "right", or dive in to cutting up each others "arguments". Take some time to do some training, climb, and see what works for you. Change your routine and see how your climbing changes. Isn't that part of the beauty of climbing? That we are working with who we are, what our strengths and "weaknesses" are, humble ourselves to try new things, talk and listen to each other, and f'ing enjoy it? It's a practice, not a perfect prescription. I try to edit out some of the back and forth on rc.

enough rambling... this has just been on my mind a lot. with spring starting and the rock season starting again, i've been wanting to get in better shape. great question. oh yeah, and get the most expensive pair of climbing shoes you can find and you'll increase your skill level like 3 grades... JUST KIDDING.


ceebo


Apr 11, 2012, 12:50 PM
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Re: [hannah.wolfmom] Woman climbers, arm strength [In reply to]
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hannah.wolfmom wrote:
<
ShannonT wrote:
I've just recently started climbing ALOT and find i have no pull strength which is a pain as i find it hard to do overhang bolder problems. Honestly i can hardly do 2 pull ups.

What shall i do, i'm kind of needing a training programme but don't know where to start.Frown
>

I like this question... I haven't been ciimbing that long, only a little over a year but I can consistently lead most 5.9 sport routes, and a lot of 10's. I really fell in love with climbing. I know it's annoying to bring up the length of time climbing : grade ratio, but I think it has some value here. When I am suplementing "just climbing" with strength training, I can more consistently climb .10's. Maybe there are some people out there who climbed .10's their first season without doing any training, but I am not one of those people. So, from one noob to another...

I very often get "oh, just climb and you'll get better" from people, mostly guys, but that hasn't been my experience. When I am doing strength training consistently, basic push ups and (really simple, often assisted) hangboard exercises, and focused ab workouts, I can climb harder and more fun routes. The focused ab workout have really helped maintain tension on a lot of routes, and especially traversing moves. It's really improved my balance and footwork, so I can push down on weirder, less secure, footholds, with more strength. I love yoga as a recovery workout, and it develops more awareness for how my body works, where my balance is, what muscles to shift... the ecstasy of movement definitely translates to climbing!

I lose muscle mass really quickly, maybe because I am a vegetarian, so I have found that even climbing 2-3 times a week doesn't always equal strength or muscle maintenance. Maybe there is because climbing can require more strength in focused muscle groups to complete certain moves, muscle groups you might not "hit" as hard if you lift just your body weight.

A big Yes! to focusing on technique early on, but there are some really helpful things about muscle training.

I find it really interesting that most climber guys tell me not to do strength training (except for my boyfriend, yay), but I've never gotten that advice from a lady climber. As far as the gender dynamics of this question go, I ran a question by a coworker of mine who also owns a crossfit gym. "Do you think people don't tell women to do weight training becasuse it's considered 'unfeminine' or they don't want them to succeed?" His answer was a pretty quick "yes". It was intimidating and foreign to do strength training for me was a chic, but when I started to see my climbing improving and my pain while climbing go down, it's a no-brainer. I have to draw on that awareness sometimes to keep doing strength training. I have to rely more on what I know about what my limits are, and less on what people tell me I "need to be doing".

Cute story: there is a really beautiful female trainer who is always encouraging women to do weight-bearing exercises at her gym. When her clients say "but I don't want to bulk up." she says "do I look bulky to you?" muscle tone isn't always unattractive.

oh, also, even if you can't do 2 pullups now, don't give up! If you can't do a pullup, just hold a hang with bent arms for as long as you can. Start where you are, and things will improve! I did pushups on my knees for a long, long, time, and now I can do a bunch from my toes, with weights! It's really humbling to do things that seem "easy" to other people, but keep pushing yourself!

As far as the flame and ego wars on the rc. go... fuckit. everybody wants to help each other out by giving each other advice, but it is a little much when everyone insists they are "right", or dive in to cutting up each others "arguments". Take some time to do some training, climb, and see what works for you. Change your routine and see how your climbing changes. Isn't that part of the beauty of climbing? That we are working with who we are, what our strengths and "weaknesses" are, humble ourselves to try new things, talk and listen to each other, and f'ing enjoy it? It's a practice, not a perfect prescription. I try to edit out some of the back and forth on rc.

enough rambling... this has just been on my mind a lot. with spring starting and the rock season starting again, i've been wanting to get in better shape. great question. oh yeah, and get the most expensive pair of climbing shoes you can find and you'll increase your skill level like 3 grades... JUST KIDDING.

I liked that post very much. Please share some more of your thoughts.

How long in your opinion should ''early on'' last?. I have seen much debate on when people should consider other types of training outside climbing. Some say after year 1, others after year 2. Some have the opinion (as i once did) not to bother till you are able to climb X grade. Yes, some say dont bother at all.

Where do we draw those pieces of advice from, other than what others have told us. What did the ''others'' base it off?. Perhaps from the risk of injury gathere by people who probably over trained?, thats a debate in itself. Body builders for example deal with far heavier load than we would ever need or dare, and they achieve that gain far earlier. I know many body builders and they have never been injured as of yet. Thats logicaly down to the sets/reps and alternations between what they train. If the real threat only boils down to fingers then why not water it down to a level of safety (as with fleshes big open hand ideals, expanded ofc to the indivduals level). To ignore the training of other vitel body parts for fear of finger injury imo is a bad deal.

The other point you made i thought is very good. You said that being stronger opened more doors to you and you basically had more choice of technique to apply.

I'd like to add more to that. Climber A has very little arm strength, climber B has ''enough''.

1 Single move, over hanging and the move was intended to be completed in a static to lock off nature.

Climber A does not have the arm strength to do that.. so insteat goes for it dynamicly. The move is completed dynamicly, job done.

Climber B first goes for it staticly and completes the move. Climber B then repeats the move dynamicly.

From a learning point climber B has took the advantedge. Climber A has more likely ingrained the habit ''to hard for my arms.. engage dynamic/dyno''. Where as climber B has done it both ways and has the irst hand experiance to now compare, along with the muscle memory/motor gains of both ways.

Whats interesting is that climber A is likely at a greater risk of injury because the move is being done closer to the realms of physical desperation. Their is a tipping point where you should realy grab the hold during the weightles period. Climber A is at far greater risk of grabing the hold when the tipping point has just been lost, that gives very little time for the other muscles to coushin the weight as it slams onto the fingers. I find that a logical due to the weaker muscles being more prone to under shooting the mark.

Now ofc its possible that climber A can try to do the move staticly to the lock off. Depending on how steep the angle is and the position of foot holds (or bad technique) this will result in the climber being exposed very closely to the conditions of a 1 arm lock off. Now, to a person who can barely do a pull up with both arms.. having a single arm momenteraly axposed to maybe 20 pound less weight than a 1 arm lock off is a elbow/shoulder injury waiting to pounce.

In that light, regardless of how long the climber has climbed.. don't you think they are at far less risk of injury if they build that arm strength with pull ups. the weight is controlled and spread over 2 arms (perhaps even feet too) and the holds on the hang board are naturaly the most finger friendly.

The idea that new climbers + any form of strength training = injury is rediculess (unless left to their own devices). Today i went to train at the local gym and i heard a comment from a new climber to his friend. He said ''we have been bouldering for 6 hours''. I very politely commented that its too long climbing even for a good climber. When i left they were still climbing. I guess we have all done it right?, mostly as a result of being missinformed, that you would expect from a new climber left to their own will.

But again i get back to body builders. They have regimented reps, sets wieght incriments to abide by, even to a new lifter they know the rules and play by them (mostly). In climbing we have no such rules becuase nobody is willing to advise a climber onto strength training. Why do you balieve they don't do that?. I personally balieve they don't do it out of complete fear they will be responsible for the injury of a new climber, not because they actualy think its a terrible idea. So it's realy a self preservation act deleating out what could actualy be a better way to become a stronger climber.

Im prety damn confident if their was a ''noob'' strength training plan so regerasly set out like you find amoung body builders.. we would see a generation of far stronger men and especialy women.

feel free to slate everything i wrote, before the rest do ;p.


boadman


Apr 11, 2012, 1:13 PM
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Re: [rgold] Woman climbers, arm strength [In reply to]
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Steph Davis isn't a great example, she doesn't really climb that hard for being a full time climber.


Partner rgold


Apr 11, 2012, 7:31 PM
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Re: [boadman] Woman climbers, arm strength [In reply to]
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boadman wrote:
Steph Davis isn't a great example, she doesn't really climb that hard for being a full time climber.

Meaning what? She doesn't spend a week redpointing a bolted forty-foot 5.14? She's exceeded by far what most men (and everyone commenting in this thread) will ever achieve in the sport. Most people on this site would consider any one of her main achievements to be the crowning accomplishment of their careers, if they could do it at all (which most could not).

Free Solos

  • The Diamond (Longs Peak). The Casual Route (V 5.10) two times, Pervertical Sanctuary (V 5.11-) two times.

  • North Face, Castleton Tower (5.11)

  • Coyne Crack (5.11+) Indian Creek.

  • Scarface (5.11) Indian Creek.


  • Some Routes

  • Freerider (VI 5.12.d/13a). El Capitan. Second woman to free El Cap in a day.

  • Salathé Wall (El Capitan) (VI 5.13 b/c) El Capitan. First woman to free the Salathe Wall.

  • Concepcion (5.13b/c) Moab. Third ascent of the route, first woman to redpoint it. The free ascent links the full pitch, bypassing the anchors partway up the route.

  • The Tombstone (5.13) Moab. First free ascent, team style with Dean Potter.

  • The Crackhouse, Moab. First female ascent.

  • Shipton Spire, Pakistan. Inshallah VI 5.12 A1. Third ascent of Shipton Spire, new route climbed all free except for a blank 10 foot section. With Kennan Harvey and Seth Shaw.

  • Tahir Tower, Pakistan. All Quiet on the Eastern Front (VI 5.11 A3). First ascent of the tower in the Kondus Valley with Jimmy Chin, Brady Robinson and Dave Anderson.

  • Jushua Tower, Baffin Island. Zen and the Art of Leadership (VI 5.11 A4). First ascent of the tower with Russ Mitrovich and Brandon Kannier.

  • Peak 3850, Kyrgyzstan. Big Yellow Moon. (V 5.12). First free ascent with Kennan Harvey.

  • Peak 4520, Kyrgyzstan. “A Thousand Years of Christianity” (V 5.9). Solo ascent.

  • Poincinot North Face, Potter-Davis Route (V 5.11 C1 WI4). First ascent with Dean Potter, alpine style.

  • Torre Egger, Titanic. (East Pillar) (UIAA VI+ A2) First one-day ascent of Torre Egger, with Dean Potter.

  • Cerro Standhardt. New route with Dean Potter.

  • Fitzroy, Franco-Argentine. First American woman to summit Fitzroy.

  • Poincinot, Whillans Route.

  • Guillaumet, 3 ascents.

  • Mermoz, Red Pillar (V 5.12).

  • L’Aiguille de l’S. Two times. With Charlie Fowler and Laurence Monnoyeur.

  • Innominata.

  • Saint Exupery. The Englishman’s Route.

  • The North Tower of Paine, with Charlie Fowler.


  • I'd say it might be worth taking a moment from our comparatively trivial climbing pursuits to listen to what she has to say. So I'm going to have to disagree with you Boadman. Steph Davis is about as good an example as you are likely to find anywhere.

    [Edit: Steph's list of climbs was taken from the Wikipedia page on her.]


    (This post was edited by rgold on Apr 11, 2012, 7:58 PM)


    shotwell


    Apr 11, 2012, 8:02 PM
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    rgold wrote:
    boadman wrote:
    Steph Davis isn't a great example, she doesn't really climb that hard for being a full time climber.

    Meaning what? She doesn't spend a week redpointing a bolted forty-foot 5.14? She's exceeded by far what most men (and everyone commenting in this thread) will ever achieve in the sport. Most people on this site would consider any one of her main achievements to be the crowning accomplishment of their careers, if they could do it at all (which most could not).

    Free Solos

  • The Diamond (Longs Peak). The Casual Route (V 5.10) two times, Pervertical Sanctuary (V 5.11-) two times.

  • North Face, Castleton Tower (5.11)

  • Coyne Crack (5.11+) Indian Creek.

  • Scarface (5.11) Indian Creek.


  • Some Routes

  • Freerider (VI 5.12.d/13a). El Capitan. Second woman to free El Cap in a day.

  • Salathé Wall (El Capitan) (VI 5.13 b/c) El Capitan. First woman to free the Salathe Wall.

  • Concepcion (5.13b/c) Moab. Third ascent of the route, first woman to redpoint it. The free ascent links the full pitch, bypassing the anchors partway up the route.

  • The Tombstone (5.13) Moab. First free ascent, team style with Dean Potter.

  • The Crackhouse, Moab. First female ascent.

  • Shipton Spire, Pakistan. Inshallah VI 5.12 A1. Third ascent of Shipton Spire, new route climbed all free except for a blank 10 foot section. With Kennan Harvey and Seth Shaw.

  • Tahir Tower, Pakistan. All Quiet on the Eastern Front (VI 5.11 A3). First ascent of the tower in the Kondus Valley with Jimmy Chin, Brady Robinson and Dave Anderson.

  • Jushua Tower, Baffin Island. Zen and the Art of Leadership (VI 5.11 A4). First ascent of the tower with Russ Mitrovich and Brandon Kannier.

  • Peak 3850, Kyrgyzstan. Big Yellow Moon. (V 5.12). First free ascent with Kennan Harvey.

  • Peak 4520, Kyrgyzstan. “A Thousand Years of Christianity” (V 5.9). Solo ascent.

  • Poincinot North Face, Potter-Davis Route (V 5.11 C1 WI4). First ascent with Dean Potter, alpine style.

  • Torre Egger, Titanic. (East Pillar) (UIAA VI+ A2) First one-day ascent of Torre Egger, with Dean Potter.

  • Cerro Standhardt. New route with Dean Potter.

  • Fitzroy, Franco-Argentine. First American woman to summit Fitzroy.

  • Poincinot, Whillans Route.

  • Guillaumet, 3 ascents.

  • Mermoz, Red Pillar (V 5.12).

  • L’Aiguille de l’S. Two times. With Charlie Fowler and Laurence Monnoyeur.

  • Innominata.

  • Saint Exupery. The Englishman’s Route.

  • The North Tower of Paine, with Charlie Fowler.


  • I'd say it might be worth taking a moment from our comparatively trivial climbing pursuits to listen to what she has to say.

    Part of this response is uncharacteristically hasty, but Steph's ticklist is very impressive and bold. However, I don't agree that no one commenting on this thread never has a chance to build an equivalent ticklist, whether it is by sport climbing significantly harder, bouldering significantly harder, or even climbing long free routes at a higher standard. If anyone on this thread ever does, it will be significant.

    Steph's ticklist impresses me at least as much as Sasha's or Lisa Rands'. The long and free nature of many of the climbs on that list have serious significance, especially Freerider. These accomplishments just need to be viewed for what they really are, not for what they first appear to be.


    Partner rgold


    Apr 11, 2012, 8:10 PM
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    Hasty? It took me forever to put those bullets in. I ran out of time to say anything.

    Of course, I have no business saying people I know nothing about have no chance of equaling Steph's accomplishments. Maybe someone here will do that. As you say, it will be a significant event, because climbers like Davis are extremely rare.

    My main point is that the idea that she doesn't climb hard enough to offer advice to beginners about training is beyond absurd.


    shotwell


    Apr 11, 2012, 8:16 PM
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    rgold wrote:
    Hasty? It took me forever to put those bullets in. I ran out of time to say anything.

    Of course, I have no business saying people I know nothing about have no chance of equaling Steph's accomplishments. Maybe someone here will do that. As you say, it will be a significant event, because climbers like Davis are extremely rare.

    My main point is that the idea that she doesn't climb hard enough to offer advice to beginners about training is beyond absurd.

    Couldn't agree more. Even if I do continue to see things a different way!


    boadman


    Apr 12, 2012, 9:12 AM
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    She's very impressive, and her ascents are very difficult. However, they don't represent huge physical challenges for someone who's climbing full time. Her mental game is impressive, but her physical accomplishments, which relate the argument as to the efficacy of pull-up training, are not much better than what you'd expect out of an average obsessed climber who has the time to get out whenever they want to.


    bearbreeder


    Apr 12, 2012, 10:11 AM
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    im wondering how many pull ups beth rodden could do when she sent meltdown 5.14 trad ... anyone know ...

    different styles, different needs ...

    to say that you NEED arm strength for all types of climbing is a fallacy ...

    however footwork pays dividends no matter what you climb ...


    hannah.wolfmom


    Apr 19, 2012, 7:05 AM
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    i would like to send V9 my first few seasons as much as I'd like to reverse global warming, have santa claus come down my chimney with flowers, and to not have peeps explode in the microwave.

    the point being, are you guys sure following the training regimens of pros, or using them as examples, is going to yield the same results?


    hannah.wolfmom


    Apr 19, 2012, 7:11 AM
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    Re: [ceebo] Woman climbers, arm strength [In reply to]
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    <
    ceebo wrote:
    hannah.wolfmom wrote:
    <
    ShannonT wrote:
    I've just recently started climbing ALOT and find i have no pull strength which is a pain as i find it hard to do overhang bolder problems. Honestly i can hardly do 2 pull ups.

    What shall i do, i'm kind of needing a training programme but don't know where to start.Frown
    >

    I like this question... I haven't been ciimbing that long, only a little over a year but I can consistently lead most 5.9 sport routes, and a lot of 10's. I really fell in love with climbing. I know it's annoying to bring up the length of time climbing : grade ratio, but I think it has some value here. When I am suplementing "just climbing" with strength training, I can more consistently climb .10's. Maybe there are some people out there who climbed .10's their first season without doing any training, but I am not one of those people. So, from one noob to another...

    I very often get "oh, just climb and you'll get better" from people, mostly guys, but that hasn't been my experience. When I am doing strength training consistently, basic push ups and (really simple, often assisted) hangboard exercises, and focused ab workouts, I can climb harder and more fun routes. The focused ab workout have really helped maintain tension on a lot of routes, and especially traversing moves. It's really improved my balance and footwork, so I can push down on weirder, less secure, footholds, with more strength. I love yoga as a recovery workout, and it develops more awareness for how my body works, where my balance is, what muscles to shift... the ecstasy of movement definitely translates to climbing!

    I lose muscle mass really quickly, maybe because I am a vegetarian, so I have found that even climbing 2-3 times a week doesn't always equal strength or muscle maintenance. Maybe there is because climbing can require more strength in focused muscle groups to complete certain moves, muscle groups you might not "hit" as hard if you lift just your body weight.

    A big Yes! to focusing on technique early on, but there are some really helpful things about muscle training.

    I find it really interesting that most climber guys tell me not to do strength training (except for my boyfriend, yay), but I've never gotten that advice from a lady climber. As far as the gender dynamics of this question go, I ran a question by a coworker of mine who also owns a crossfit gym. "Do you think people don't tell women to do weight training becasuse it's considered 'unfeminine' or they don't want them to succeed?" His answer was a pretty quick "yes". It was intimidating and foreign to do strength training for me was a chic, but when I started to see my climbing improving and my pain while climbing go down, it's a no-brainer. I have to draw on that awareness sometimes to keep doing strength training. I have to rely more on what I know about what my limits are, and less on what people tell me I "need to be doing".

    Cute story: there is a really beautiful female trainer who is always encouraging women to do weight-bearing exercises at her gym. When her clients say "but I don't want to bulk up." she says "do I look bulky to you?" muscle tone isn't always unattractive.

    oh, also, even if you can't do 2 pullups now, don't give up! If you can't do a pullup, just hold a hang with bent arms for as long as you can. Start where you are, and things will improve! I did pushups on my knees for a long, long, time, and now I can do a bunch from my toes, with weights! It's really humbling to do things that seem "easy" to other people, but keep pushing yourself!

    As far as the flame and ego wars on the rc. go... fuckit. everybody wants to help each other out by giving each other advice, but it is a little much when everyone insists they are "right", or dive in to cutting up each others "arguments". Take some time to do some training, climb, and see what works for you. Change your routine and see how your climbing changes. Isn't that part of the beauty of climbing? That we are working with who we are, what our strengths and "weaknesses" are, humble ourselves to try new things, talk and listen to each other, and f'ing enjoy it? It's a practice, not a perfect prescription. I try to edit out some of the back and forth on rc.

    enough rambling... this has just been on my mind a lot. with spring starting and the rock season starting again, i've been wanting to get in better shape. great question. oh yeah, and get the most expensive pair of climbing shoes you can find and you'll increase your skill level like 3 grades... JUST KIDDING.

    I liked that post very much. Please share some more of your thoughts.

    How long in your opinion should ''early on'' last?. I have seen much debate on when people should consider other types of training outside climbing. Some say after year 1, others after year 2. Some have the opinion (as i once did) not to bother till you are able to climb X grade. Yes, some say dont bother at all.

    Where do we draw those pieces of advice from, other than what others have told us. What did the ''others'' base it off?. Perhaps from the risk of injury gathere by people who probably over trained?, thats a debate in itself. Body builders for example deal with far heavier load than we would ever need or dare, and they achieve that gain far earlier. I know many body builders and they have never been injured as of yet. Thats logicaly down to the sets/reps and alternations between what they train. If the real threat only boils down to fingers then why not water it down to a level of safety (as with fleshes big open hand ideals, expanded ofc to the indivduals level). To ignore the training of other vitel body parts for fear of finger injury imo is a bad deal.

    The other point you made i thought is very good. You said that being stronger opened more doors to you and you basically had more choice of technique to apply.

    I'd like to add more to that. Climber A has very little arm strength, climber B has ''enough''.

    1 Single move, over hanging and the move was intended to be completed in a static to lock off nature.

    Climber A does not have the arm strength to do that.. so insteat goes for it dynamicly. The move is completed dynamicly, job done.

    Climber B first goes for it staticly and completes the move. Climber B then repeats the move dynamicly.

    From a learning point climber B has took the advantedge. Climber A has more likely ingrained the habit ''to hard for my arms.. engage dynamic/dyno''. Where as climber B has done it both ways and has the irst hand experiance to now compare, along with the muscle memory/motor gains of both ways.

    Whats interesting is that climber A is likely at a greater risk of injury because the move is being done closer to the realms of physical desperation. Their is a tipping point where you should realy grab the hold during the weightles period. Climber A is at far greater risk of grabing the hold when the tipping point has just been lost, that gives very little time for the other muscles to coushin the weight as it slams onto the fingers. I find that a logical due to the weaker muscles being more prone to under shooting the mark.

    Now ofc its possible that climber A can try to do the move staticly to the lock off. Depending on how steep the angle is and the position of foot holds (or bad technique) this will result in the climber being exposed very closely to the conditions of a 1 arm lock off. Now, to a person who can barely do a pull up with both arms.. having a single arm momenteraly axposed to maybe 20 pound less weight than a 1 arm lock off is a elbow/shoulder injury waiting to pounce.

    In that light, regardless of how long the climber has climbed.. don't you think they are at far less risk of injury if they build that arm strength with pull ups. the weight is controlled and spread over 2 arms (perhaps even feet too) and the holds on the hang board are naturaly the most finger friendly.

    The idea that new climbers + any form of strength training = injury is rediculess (unless left to their own devices). Today i went to train at the local gym and i heard a comment from a new climber to his friend. He said ''we have been bouldering for 6 hours''. I very politely commented that its too long climbing even for a good climber. When i left they were still climbing. I guess we have all done it right?, mostly as a result of being missinformed, that you would expect from a new climber left to their own will.

    But again i get back to body builders. They have regimented reps, sets wieght incriments to abide by, even to a new lifter they know the rules and play by them (mostly). In climbing we have no such rules becuase nobody is willing to advise a climber onto strength training. Why do you balieve they don't do that?. I personally balieve they don't do it out of complete fear they will be responsible for the injury of a new climber, not because they actualy think its a terrible idea. So it's realy a self preservation act deleating out what could actualy be a better way to become a stronger climber.

    Im prety damn confident if their was a ''noob'' strength training plan so regerasly set out like you find amoung body builders.. we would see a generation of far stronger men and especialy women.

    feel free to slate everything i wrote, before the rest do ;p.
    >

    i like the way this is put... i don't know.... what about training yourself to focus on footwork, balance, and technique early on, regardless of arm strength? like, you don't have to chose between being strong and having good technique. i feel like this includes training yourself to time rests appropriately when doing longer and more challenging wall climbs.


    johnwesely


    Apr 19, 2012, 7:54 AM
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    rgold is really delivering beat down after beat down in this thread.


    shotwell


    Apr 19, 2012, 8:03 AM
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    hannah.wolfmom wrote:
    i would like to send V9 my first few seasons as much as I'd like to reverse global warming, have santa claus come down my chimney with flowers, and to not have peeps explode in the microwave.

    the point being, are you guys sure following the training regimens of pros, or using them as examples, is going to yield the same results?

    My wife (the V9 example in this thread) is not a pro. No sponsorship, no free shoes, no discounts. That is exactly why I used her as an example. She was a raw beginner two years ago, and even weaker than the OP.

    To recap, she started unable to do a pull up. She climbed, and only climbed. This got her onsighting 5.12a and redpointing 5.12c in one year, to V9 in two years, taught her to campus (on route), and built the strength to do pull ups.

    You probably won't achieve her results, but if you dedicate enough time and effort to climbing I bet you improve drastically. That isn't a secret, climbing is a complex skill. Most people just need to get way more mileage and put in far more effort during their sessions.


    bearbreeder


    Apr 19, 2012, 8:54 AM
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    better footwork pays dividends no matter how low yr level ...

    not to say you shouldnt do more funky things later ..


    ceebo


    Apr 19, 2012, 1:32 PM
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    bearbreeder wrote:
    better footwork pays dividends no matter how low yr level ...

    not to say you shouldnt do more funky things later ..

    In a 2 hour ''training'' session what is stopping you from doing both. A 45 min warm up is a long time, enough to kill a few birds with the same stone. With the remaining time, get funky?.

    For every move you find that any amount of strength will not pass with ought the right foot work, i'll find you one that any amount of foot work will not pass with ought the strength.

    It's not a fking war.. or a foot ball game.. you don't have to pick sides. Have both Unimpressed.


    (This post was edited by ceebo on Apr 19, 2012, 1:35 PM)


    bearbreeder


    Apr 19, 2012, 3:36 PM
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    that depends on what type of conditions yr in IMO ... many people i see are limited by time (work, life, family) .... and IMO many newer people could spend the time working on their technique than doing pullup or other such ...

    as noted previously it all depends what your goals are and where you climb .. out here its pretty useless on most climbs to be able to do a pullup unless you are climbing hard overhanging sport ...

    footwork and technique is eternal ... strength fades away ...


    BClear


    Apr 19, 2012, 4:38 PM
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uds2CwrMwBI

    Watch the three videos in the links. Do the work, eat the food, get results. No mystery in how to gain strength or endurance. Advice from world record holding max weighted pullup holder via youtube (former Marine...shocking right) v. craptastic opinions from inflated egos.


    (This post was edited by BClear on Apr 19, 2012, 4:47 PM)


    shotwell


    Apr 19, 2012, 5:07 PM
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    BClear wrote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uds2CwrMwBI

    Watch the three videos in the links. Do the work, eat the food, get results. No mystery in how to gain strength or endurance. Advice from world record holding max weighted pullup holder via youtube (former Marine...shocking right) v. craptastic opinions from inflated egos.

    I'll say this as kindly as I can.

    How exactly do you think being the world record holder for weighted pull ups helps with climbing?

    Do as much pull up work as you want. When you 'get results' from your pull up training that applies to your climbing, post a video. Spray on. Just don't expect me to care until you can show real world climbing results. If this was a pull up forum, results would be doing more pull ups or pull ups at a higher weight. The truth is, it isn't. This is rockclimbing.com.

    I respect rgold's opinion even if I disagree. I think you're an idiot.


    BClear


    Apr 19, 2012, 6:07 PM
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    You may notice the topic is "arm strength" not give me your opinion on whether its needed in climbing. The vids give instruction and ideas on how to gain reps and strength from someone who undeniably has gained both.

    Any climber who states that upper body strength does not help in rockclimbing is a buffoon. Just like anyone who denies the benefits of proper footwork or leg strength is a buffoon. Anyone wanting to argue the lack of benefits doing a pullup has to upper body/back strength is a buffoon. They aren't the only method of making gains but they are arguably the most efficient, simplistic and reliable.

    And as for my opinion of you, the world needs egotistical jackasses too I suppose.


    (This post was edited by BClear on Apr 19, 2012, 6:52 PM)


    shotwell


    Apr 19, 2012, 7:12 PM
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    BClear wrote:
    You may notice the topic is "arm strength" not give me your opinion on whether its needed in climbing. The vids give instruction and ideas on how to gain reps and strength from someone who undeniably has gained both.

    Any climber who states that upper body strength does not help in rockclimbing is a buffoon. Just like anyone who denies the benefits of proper footwork or leg strength is a buffoon. Anyone wanting to argue the lack of benefits doing a pullup has to upper body/back strength is a buffoon. They aren't the only method of making gains but they are arguably the most efficient, simplistic and reliable.

    And as for my opinion of you, the world needs egotistical jackasses too I suppose.

    I have upper body strength. So does my wife. So do plenty of people that just climb. I just disagree that you will gain any real climbing skill by doing a mind numbing number of pull ups.

    The topic may be arm strength, but it is specifically about application. This is still on rockclimbing.com.

    Sorry that everyone here thinks you are wrong, including the proponents of targeted strength training. Maybe we are all jackasses for thinking you are foolish.


    Greggle


    Apr 19, 2012, 7:29 PM
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    Where's Sungam? This thread is in serious need of some Pinkie Pie.


    BClear


    Apr 19, 2012, 7:34 PM
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    I'm not entirely sure what your having a problem wrapping that massive brain of yours around here but nowhere did I propose a mind numbing number of pullups. I merely stated the ability of the individuals to do said mind numbing number and the ability of their training methods to help those who are at all of 2 or 3 pullups attain a reasonable number of pullups aka 20ish in the fastest period of time. Same methods have been used by literally thousands of men and women to get gains in strength and endurance in as short a period of time as possible. But then again I'd miss all the comments of how "pumpy" routes are because so many climbers have neither.


    (This post was edited by BClear on Apr 19, 2012, 8:14 PM)


    jt512


    Apr 19, 2012, 9:18 PM
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    BClear wrote:
    I'm not entirely sure what your having a problem wrapping that massive brain of yours around here but nowhere did I propose a mind numbing number of pullups. I merely stated the ability of the individuals to do said mind numbing number and the ability of their training methods to help those who are at all of 2 or 3 pullups attain a reasonable number of pullups aka 20ish in the fastest period of time. Same methods have been used by literally thousands of men and women to get gains in strength and endurance in as short a period of time as possible. But then again I'd miss all the comments of how "pumpy" routes are because so many climbers have neither.

    Listen, you idiot, the OP doesn't want to know how to do pull-ups. She wants to know how to climb better, and she mistakenly thinks the answer is to build "arm strength." Everyone in this thread except you understands this and is trying to give her advice to attain her tacit goal.

    Nobody here cares about how Marines train for pullups. I'm sure there are websites where your knowledge would be appreciated. I suggest you go find one.

    Jay


    BClear


    Apr 19, 2012, 9:43 PM
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    Lol, yeah your a real leet pro I forgot. Great usage of the comma there as well. Op identified a weakness and asked for help for training. Personally could care less if she uses the info but its there. As far as I can tell not a single person has posted another effective way of getting more pullups or armstrength. To say climb more and leave it at that is just ignorant without knowing more about the ops situation. Not everyone lives near a gym or crags. But hey she's a woman so I guess you figure you should do her thinking for her. Or wait maybe because your such a leet pro who sends with no armstrength.


    (This post was edited by BClear on Apr 19, 2012, 9:48 PM)

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