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Gym Death- Knot Failure
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jt512


Apr 23, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight. I have tested and found that you can tie only 2/3 of a figuer eight and it still holds body weight. If you forget to finish a fig 8 you still have a chance. forget to finish a bowline and you are toast! I do use the bowline in many other climbing aplications such as my 6mm chalkbag cord and my 9mm home made adjustable daisy. Bowlines loosen up, Fig 8's do not. pretty simple stuff.

It's only "pretty simple" because you've oversimplified it to the point that it is untrue.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Apr 23, 2012, 11:27 AM
Post #52 of 65 (2585 views)
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Re: [jt512] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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KISSCool


jt512


Apr 23, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #53 of 65 (2574 views)
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
KISSCool

On the other hand:




JimTitt


Apr 23, 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #54 of 65 (2569 views)
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes chamgeWink

So what about all those people not in the USA? Like Adam Ondra who doesn´t really need to improve his coolness credentials and is hardly an old fart yet, or is the hidden message that the USA leads the world in some way?


tradmanclimbs


Apr 23, 2012, 12:11 PM
Post #55 of 65 (2560 views)
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Re: [JimTitt] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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Euros are taught differently. You can't be extra cool if lots of people are taught to use the bowline. that would be like trying to be cool useing the fig8 in the USA When it comes to climbing safty I tend to take anything the Euros do with a grain of salt as they tend to go splat a a fairly high rateWink


shockabuku


Apr 23, 2012, 1:48 PM
Post #56 of 65 (2528 views)
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Re: [JimTitt] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes chamgeWink

So what about all those people not in the USA? Like Adam Ondra who doesn´t really need to improve his coolness credentials and is hardly an old fart yet, or is the hidden message that the USA leads the world in some way?

Hidden?Crazy


Partner rgold


Apr 23, 2012, 3:38 PM
Post #57 of 65 (2500 views)
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight...INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes chamgeWink

Allow me to pry off the bevys of adoring beauties, so mesmerized by the coolness of my bowline tie-ins that they have failed to notice I could be their grampa, and see if I can shed some light on Trad's dark vision of the knot-tying motivations of the USA climber.

Here's why I'm still using bowlines. As I've posted in other places, I belay---both leader and second---off the rope loop whenever I'm tied in and anchored. (Although moderately common in the UK, it isn't done much here because of the vast number of farts of various ages resistant to change, and this, together with my bowlines, makes me so much cooler I could effin' plotz.)

This means that (1) my tie-ins get a lot more loading in the course of a day than those of other way less cool climbers, and (2) there is a possibility of ring-loading the knots.

I have no doubt that Trad's figure-8's have just dropped from his harness on command for 30 years, but I've seen some figure-8's that took tools and a lot of time to undo, and I know I am very far from the only one with that experience.

On top of the potential difficulty of untying, those figure-8's may have a nasty habit of flyping when ring-loaded. ( I say "may" because I really doubt this ever happens in practice...but still...)

The result is that the knot I've used for 55 years, the double bowline with Yosemite and barrel knot finish, is still the best for the way I climb. The fact that it makes me so cool is just a bonus.

Now ladies, where were we?


dan2see


Apr 23, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #58 of 65 (2495 views)
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Re: [jt512] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
KISSCool

On the other hand:


In this diagram, the letter "x" is spelled wrong. It can be spelled "h" or "c"


tradmanclimbs


Apr 23, 2012, 4:03 PM
Post #59 of 65 (2485 views)
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Re: [dan2see] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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Rich. I am certain that your method works well for you and tere is no doubt that you are CoolCool Not saying that i never had a tight knott but also never needed tools to get one apart. I often tie a figuer eight in the center of the rope, clip that to the anchor and then drop both ends off the cliff. I now have 2 strands of 100ft rope to rap and jug on giveing me some redundancy in case of one cutting when working new projects. After a day of jugging and rapping on that line it is pretty hard to get that figuer 8 undone but it has always been doable. perhaps there is a better knot for this purpose but I am not enough of a knott expert to know of one. I do not belay directly on my tie in loop. i have a belay loop or anchor power point for that situation depending. As for the tie in knott, fig eight has worked well for me. I did a stint with the bowline trying to be cool but it I grew up and got over it ;)


mikebee


Apr 23, 2012, 6:19 PM
Post #60 of 65 (2452 views)
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I often tie a figuer eight in the center of the rope, clip that to the anchor and then drop both ends off the cliff. I now have 2 strands of 100ft rope to rap and jug on giveing me some redundancy in case of one cutting when working new projects. After a day of jugging and rapping on that line it is pretty hard to get that figuer 8 undone but it has always been doable

Jugging and rapping will (done correctly) only load the knot with a bit more than body weight, certainly never more than double body weight.

A large lead fall, with a heavy climber and a hard catch will get to many times the force of jugging and rapping, so the knot will become much harder to undo than you're describing. I'm not sure the example you just gave is a legitimate piece of evidence in the untieability of loaded fig8s.

I'm a figure of 8 user all the time, but I have seen situations when a bowline would have been a preferable option.


shockabuku


Apr 23, 2012, 11:21 PM
Post #61 of 65 (2420 views)
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Registered: May 20, 2006
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Rich. I am certain that your method works well for you and tere is no doubt that you are CoolCool Not saying that i never had a tight knott but also never needed tools to get one apart. I often tie a figuer eight in the center of the rope, clip that to the anchor and then drop both ends off the cliff. I now have 2 strands of 100ft rope to rap and jug on giveing me some redundancy in case of one cutting when working new projects. After a day of jugging and rapping on that line it is pretty hard to get that figuer 8 undone but it has always been doable. perhaps there is a better knot for this purpose but I am not enough of a knott expert to know of one. I do not belay directly on my tie in loop. i have a belay loop or anchor power point for that situation depending. As for the tie in knott, fig eight has worked well for me. I did a stint with the bowline trying to be cool but it I grew up and got over it ;)

Yep, it's called - wait for it - the bowline on a bight.


tradmanclimbs


Apr 24, 2012, 3:24 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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Mike , jugging continously bounces the rope. when you work a new route with lots of cleaning, trundeling, swinging, top rope falls and jugging to the top several times over the course of 6 or 8 hours I am pretty darn sure that knot is tighter than any leader fall my fat arse has ever taken. the whole point of this system is to have 2 completly independant and bombproof ropes useing a single rope folded in half.


shockabuku


Apr 24, 2012, 5:28 AM
Post #63 of 65 (2393 views)
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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Wrong Mike.

I would still consider the bowline on a bight. I use it for TR soloing. It's strong, provides two lines (though different in that it has two anchoring loops), and unties easily.


csproul


Apr 24, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #64 of 65 (2382 views)
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Mike , jugging continously bounces the rope. when you work a new route with lots of cleaning, trundeling, swinging, top rope falls and jugging to the top several times over the course of 6 or 8 hours I am pretty darn sure that knot is tighter than any leader fall my fat arse has ever taken. the whole point of this system is to have 2 completly independant and bombproof ropes useing a single rope folded in half.
In all the years I have been doing the same thing (jugging/top-roping on a fixed knot), I have never had a knot welded from jugging or solo top-roping to the same degree as a hard leader fall. I have definitely had 8's cinched so tight after lead falls that they took a team effort to untie. Yes, I was always able to get them out eventually without the use of tools or a knife, but I certainly would have rather spent that effort on the next climb instead of untying a knot.


phillygoat


Apr 24, 2012, 7:49 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Gym Death- Knot Failure [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
Wrong Mike.

I would still consider the bowline on a bight. I use it for TR soloing. It's strong, provides two lines (though different in that it has two anchoring loops), and unties easily.

+1



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