I remember reading an article by the AAI saying that they do not recommend using the bowline to tie in with. They went on to say that there is a figure eight version of the bowline that offers the security advantages of the figure eight with the untying advantages of the bowline. But I cannot find a photo of the knot, or the actual name of the knot.

Figure eight version of the bowline.

In what sense?

I suspect this is going to get some interesting responses.

Well it was not necessary a figure eight bowline. Rather, it was a variation of the bowline that provided the security of the figure eight, or so the article claimed. The AAI went on about how the variation was the only acceptable way to tie in using the bowline, or something to that extent.

My guess would be this:


Ties like a bowline but leave lots of extra and then rethread, conceptually like you would rethread a figure eight. Functionally it's the same knot as a bowline-on-a-bight.

Re-threaded double bowline (by re-threaded I mean that the end of the rope goes back through the harness again) finished with double fisherman.

This link has the picture of re-threaded single bowline (scroll down the page to "harness knots"), but the backup knot is not shown): http://www.kong.it/lexis02.htm In a sense, this is the same as bowline on a bight, just like double figure 8 is the same knot as figure 8 on a bight:

You can also do a "yosemite finish" to the bowline (re-thread it without going through the harness the second time, so the rope end ends us sticking up from the knot, not down, and then finish up with the double fisherman. Scroll down to yosemite bowline, again, double fisherman finish not shown.
http://blank005.tripod.com/camping/howtoknots.html

Yes. And a better picture than the one I linked.

The terminology surrounding the bowline is very confusing.

I understand a double bowline to be this:

Which has two coils around the finishing bight.

Whereas the bowline on a bight/rethreaded bowline is this:
Which has two loops around the "anchor", whatever that is.


I can only imagine that a rethreaded double bowline would have two loops around the "anchor" with four coils around the bight - something I have never seen.

Just tie a figure eight people! You can't get any better!

I've never NOT been able to untie a figure eight. I can't really describe it through text, but it's super easy, even after a huge whipper.

I've even had to undo friend's knots for them, showing them how, now they too have no problem untying figure eights after big falls, and after being super pumped too.

It takes like 4 steps that takes less than 5 seconds to loosen the knot, then it's just a matter of untying.

A bowline with a Yosemite finish incorporates a "figure 8" into the knot.

I have attached an illustrtaion from the "Ontario Rock Climbing Assoc. - Safety Manual" clearly showing the 8 incorporated into the finishing knot.

They show the knot being tied with a bowline on a bight but the knot is tied identically if tying only a regular bowline with this finish.

Is this possibly what you were looking for?

[image]http://cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/6299Figure_Eight_4.JPG[/image]

What I do - have never used a figure 8 outside of visiting gyms that require them. To be blunt figure 8s are more a lowest common denominator deal and suck as an actual tie in knot.

to untie the 8 just do a yos finish ... and then twist the knot in yr hands until strands work themselves loose

sharma uses an 8 ... he falls more than anyone else here

what people use is their own choice .. but its a fallacy to say you cant untie one after falling

I suppose if I had Sharma's strength, I could easily untie any knot too...but alas, I am weak and untying my knot after a big fall is more difficult with an 8. Besisdes, he probably has a swarm of groupies waiting to untie his knot for him!

It is also rope dependent. Some ropes with different dry coatings/diameters/stiffness are just harder to untie. Bottom line is I don't really care what Sharma/Croft/Bachar does or does not do. I'm not them and I know from personal experience that a figure 8 can be very difficult to untie and that a bowline is not.

the bottom line is that plenty of people use fig 8s just fine ... and fall on em ... and untie em ...

what you use is up to you ... but then RCers tend to think that their way is the ONLY way ... everything else sucks

Is that the same knot that was posted up-thread by shockabuku?

Knot (un)tying advice from the guy that brought you this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...6;page=unread#unread

You'll forgive me if I take the advice with a grain of salt? But just in case, please post your method for super-easy figure 8 untying, I'd love to learn something new.

Not quite, it's a double bowline with a Czech finish.

What is the Czech finish?

I've never NOT been able to untie a figure eight. I can't really describe it through text, but it's super easy, even after a huge whipper.

I've even had to undo friend's knots for them, showing them how, now they too have no problem untying figure eights after big falls, and after being super pumped too.

It takes like 4 steps that takes less than 5 seconds to loosen the knot, then it's just a matter of untying.

I think, basically, there are two types of people who get all worked up in the bowline vs. 8 argument. People who are anal about checking other people's knots and people who aren't.
I really don't think a bowline along with the various finishes that exist out there is difficult to check at all. And, if you can't distinquish between an 8 and a bowline in a couple seconds, you don't have any buisness "checking" other people's safety gear anyway. And, I always check my own knot so I'm probably in the second group. But I don't know that I'm ever going to get worked up about it. And I do use the 8 to tie in sometimes. Perhaps there's a third group of people out there. People who just don't care so long as the knot is suitable.

Do you mean a double bowline? That's the standard when it comes to using the bowline when tying in.

The only variations I've seen in the knot is where people tie their backup knots.

Knot (un)tying advice from the guy that brought you this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...6;page=unread#unread

You'll forgive me if I take the advice with a grain of salt? But just in case, please post your method for super-easy figure 8 untying, I'd love to learn something new.

I see, thanks. Although you did state it, it's hard to see that it's not a rethreaded bowline (bowline on a bight configuration) vs. an actual double bowline with a rethreaded finish.

A bowline on a bight and a rethreaded bowline have the same form but are tied differently.

There are quite a few variations of the bowline, (double, Eskimo, water, Dutch), and also a number of different finishes. With respect to climbing however, most discussions seem to center around the the rethreaded variation or a simple bowline with a Yosemite finish.

A bowline on a bight and a rethreaded bowline have the same form but are tied differently.

There are quite a few variations of the bowline, (double, Eskimo, water, Dutch), and also a number of different finishes. With respect to climbing however, most discussions seem to center around the the rethreaded variation or a simple bowline with a Yosemite finish.

I used to use a bowline in Europe but switched to the F8 because it was more common here in the US. For me, keeping things simple and standard is better, but that's me. But the one thing that has kept me from going back to the bowline is the sheer number of variations of the knot and the finishes. Seriously, I think there are at least four variations mentioned in this thread alone, and that seems to be the case with nearly all threads on the bowline. For consistency's sake, how are people supposed to keep track of them all?

I'm not advocating the F8 as the best knot; I know why the bowline is a good knot. I probably would use it if I had continued to practice it over the years and had partners who used it a lot in the US (the F8 is also the standard here in South America), but a F8 is really easy for the masses to learn, check, and it's safe (in fact, I've read somewhere (sorry, can't reference) that an eight not fully threaded could still hold when tightened).

never understood that ... i take a few whippers at the top of climbs when pulling plastic to get the falling out of the system .. never had major problems untying ... granted im not hardcore enough to take factor 1-2 falls like some people here

nor have i had issues untying even with my older ropes ...

but who knows ... im not an RC expert

as mentioned above, the sheer variations of bowlines in this thread alone, basically means youll likely need to self check ... i tell partners who use the bowline that ... check it yrself because theres no way im going to memorize everyones favorite personal variation ...

its most interesting that every time (and there are quite a few times) where there is an accident with a bowline, people just brush it away ...

I don't take factor-anything falls, I'm just fat.

And as far as bowlines and accidents, I would be very surprised if you could find a single accident that involved a re-threaded version.

Your rationale for going to back to the figure-8 don't make sense. You went back to the figure-8 because it is more common? So what? Simplicity? A bowline and a fig-8 are equally simple? Standardization? Why would standardization, in the sense of everybody including you tying in with the same knot, matter?

Furthermore, you don't go back to the figure-8 bowline because it has too many variations? So what, you only need to know one of them. For consistency's sake, how are people supposed to keep track of them all? First of all, people keeping track of variations has nothing to do with consistency. Secondly, there is no reason to "keep track" of them all. I don't know how to tie most of the variations mentioned here. The figure-8 is easier for the masses? I agree, but so what? Let the masses do what's best for them.

Our decisions should be based on rational criteria. There doesn't appear to be much rationality in yours.

Jay

I, and all of my partners, do checks before leaving the ground (actually, we tend to do checks of some sort throughout the climb, but I digress). Since all of my partners use the F8 then that makes it easier for them to check my knot and vice-versa. A F8 looks the same depending one slightly different finish (if one tucks the strand back in or not), whereas a bowline can look quite different depending on the variation. If a partner doesn't recognize the difference between the variations then the partner may have a difficult time verifying that the knot was tied properly.

Whether you agree with checks or not is irrelevant, I think they're good and I think it's easier to check a knot that is more common than a knot that is less common with many variations. For example, when I climb with someone who ties in with a bowline, I tell them that I can't check it (because I have neither seen or tied one in a long time). If they're fine, great, but I prefer to be able to check the knot.

Both me and my main climbing partner always tie in with a bowline. We also always double check each other. It goes like this:

- "do you have a good knot?"
- partner looks down at his knot...."yup"

I don't need to inspect my partner's knot, I trust that my climbing partners know what their knot is supossed to look like.

You'd have saved me a lot off typing if you had said that in the first place.

Jay

Sorry. I thought it was implied.

Both me and my main climbing partner always tie in with a bowline. We also always double check each other. It goes like this:

- "do you have a good knot?"
- partner looks down at his knot...."yup"

I don't need to inspect my partner's knot, I trust that my climbing partners know what their knot is supossed to look like.

This might work for you but it's not good advice. In climbing it is dangerous to "assume" anything and best to double-check for yourself.

Sorry. I thought it was implied.

I trust they know what it's supposed to look like, too, but I don't believe we're perfect and I don't want to be the guy whose partner decked from not finishing the knot. I think the following conversation would be lame:

- what happened?
- my partner decked, has a broken fibia, and won't climb for six months at least.
- what happened?
- he didn't finish his knot.

Both me and my main climbing partner always tie in with a bowline. We also always double check each other. It goes like this:

- "do you have a good knot?"
- partner looks down at his knot...."yup"

I don't need to inspect my partner's knot, I trust that my climbing partners know what their knot is supossed to look like.

"...is this why there are so many people opposed to the knot?

Verifying any bowline variant, aside from those that butcher the visual like the yos finish, should be easy to pattern check looking for the essentials of the knot - i.e. it shouldn't be any form of big memory act or rocket science. It's either making a proper bight or it's not.

What do you do when you climb with someone who uses a bow line? I too find them hard to check on another person (though I know what a good vs bad bowline looks like when I look down at my own and can do so with little effort).

As I can see it you either get up close and personal for the inspection, tell them you'll only climb with them if they use a figure 8 or you trust them to do an second inspection of their own knot. I guess if you're not comfortable with your partner assessing his knot by themselves a bowline would be an issue....is this why there are so many people opposed to the knot?

Jay, the rethreaded version solves both concerns you mention: it retains the classic form of the knot and whether it's tied in a standard or Dutch variant, It remains strong, redundant and is easily inspected.

A bowline on a bight and a rethreaded bowline have the same form but are tied differently.

That's not exactly right. A bowline on a bight is just that - a single bowline tied with a bight of rope. You end up with a tail that is a loop, and generally this is clipped off. It can be useful for tying into the middle of a rope, but it's super bulky.

The rethreaded bowline is just that. You need a free end that, ultimately, is left as a single tail. It is far neater once tied.

That's not exactly right. A bowline on a bight is just that - a single bowline tied with a bight of rope. You end up with a tail that is a loop, and generally this is clipped off. It can be useful for tying into the middle of a rope, but it's super bulky.

The rethreaded bowline is just that. You need a free end that, ultimately, is left as a single tail. It is far neater once tied.

In an uncharacteristically good post, Rescueman showed how understanding the components of a bowline can help in checking the knot.

Still, bowlines are harder to inspect than figure-8s. One reason, I think, is that any mistake in tying the figure-8 ruins its symmetry, which is noticeable at a glance. The bowline, in contrast, isn't symmetrical, whether correctly tied or not, so an improperly tied bowline isn't glaringly obvious, the way a figure-8 is.

Secondly, to properly inspect a bowline, the climber should be able to spot the subtle difference between the standard bowline (on the left in the figure below) and the Dutch bowline (right), which is generally thought of as unsuitable as a tie-in knot.

Finally, many finishes make the bowline harder to see, and at least one variation, the water bowline, which one of my partners ties in with, looks like a total rats nest.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Standard_bowline_vs_cowboy_bowline.svg/350px-Standard_bowline_vs_cowboy_bowline.svg.png[/img]

Jay

I tie-in with a double bowline, and back it up with a single bowline (pictured below). The reason I don't use a rethreaded bowline or Joe's Czech finish is that I prefer a finish that leaves the tail along the loop, where it is out of the way, rather than along the standing end.

The only difference is the length of the tail. Edit to add: The tail is not a loop unless you make it that way. //end of edit// The bowline-on-a-bight is tied in the "middle" of the rope using a bight but you could just as easily tie it using a bight at the end of the rope and have it at the same place it would normally be when tied as the rethreaded version. Aside from how you make it, and perhaps how you use it, in form it is the exact same knot.

This is the knot of my choice, easy to inspect if you know how should a bowline on a bight look like. Stoppers is on the loop because I don't like crap above the knot.

I'll ask my gf to model for it when she arrives home :)

The bowline-on-a-bight and rethreaded-bowline, respectively.

The bowline-on-a-bight and rethreaded-bowline, respectively.

That's a mis-tied single bowline on the left,

Finish the knot in a way that the end of the rope is right of the loaded strand, not left

edit: the rethreaded loop (the "rabbithole"*) is below the original loop, not above.

*The rabbit jumps out the hole, goes around the tree and jumps back into the hole = simple bowline

If you get a single bowline with a weird backup you are still doing something wrong. Try tying it with a short cord and then start getting the "load" strand out of the knot. You'll get a dutch bowline, so the backup is a dutch bowline actually.

Tied your knot, worked the load strand back through knot, getting the same dutch bowline as in my knot, so my knot is actually the same as yours, with both loops loaded. Also, I've found out how to tie that knot when I was playing around with a bowline on a bight which is essentially the same as a double bowline.

Well isint the version of the bowline you showed us the exact same thing as a bowline on a bight?

Every reference I have seen about the double bowline shoes two loops pinching the load strand and the free strand.

However, the problem is that the knot is so complicated, it is hard to inspect, and that worries me.

By the time I am done tying the thing and I add a fishermans on the loop running though the harness, the knot looks like some ghetto rigged crap that I just made up as I went along.

o I found a version that fixes this issue. Instead of retracing the bowline a second time, just start out with a double bowline and tie a fishermans on the loops running through the harness for a backup. It is essentially the same as your knot (except it is a true double bowline,) but the knot is not retraced, so there is only one strand running through the harness. This makes the knot a lot easier to inspect.