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wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 8:03 AM
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The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate
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Please discuss your webbing vs. top rope issues here.


njrox


May 1, 2012, 8:35 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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My static rope is only 60 feet long. Often I’ll use webbing or cord to wrap the trees and then connect them with a biner to my static rope. In that situation, I believe webbing is safe for top-rope climbing.

I use webbing to build tree rappel anchors. Always two pieces, each with its own link.

Those are the only two situations where I find myself using webbing. I never trust just one piece. I never use it as a master point. And I make sure to avoid putting in a position that would expose it to friction or abrasion. Never over a rock edge, and as secure and static as possible whenever wrapped around a tree.

I would say that I use webbing regularly. Most of the time it is used in the extension scenario. I’ve had the same length of webbing in my pack for this purpose for nearly a year and it’s still in great condition. No sign of wear or deterioration.

I trust webbing but only for limited purposes. But if I had a longer static rope then I probably wouldn’t use webbing except for tree rappel anchors.


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 8:44 AM
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Re: [njrox] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I have not set up a top rope in a long time. However, the last time I did, I believe that I used webbing. That being said, I learned how to set up a top rope anchor in the mid-90's and that's what was commonly used. In the northeast we have a ton of BFTs (Big Effing Trees) that you can use for an anchor.

I have since acquired static rope and do know how to use it to set up an anchor. However, I would like to know what are the strengths and weaknesses of each system. Enlighten me, please, folks!


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 8:51 AM
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njrox


May 1, 2012, 8:54 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I have two different brands of webbing here are the specs that were listed when I bought them...

Sterling 1 in. Tubular Webbing
MBS of 4496 lbs

Blue Water 1" Climbing-Spec Tubular Webbing
17.8 kN

In terms of "pull strength", forgive me if that's not the proper term, it's strong enough for top-rope falls (edit: used in the TR scenario in which I described earlier). The obvious weakness is abrasion. No clue as far as its dynamic properties but at .40 cents a foot it's not going to break my bank to toss out the length I've been carrying around and replace it with a fresh new peice.


(This post was edited by njrox on May 1, 2012, 8:58 AM)


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 8:57 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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For a tree anchor with static rope is easy too. You can wrap it around the tree with a bowline. Or a follow-thru figure of eight just like tying into your harness. Then you're left with one strand where you can use to tie off another treem boulder or anchor placement then equalize the two and create your masterpoint.

One thing to keep in mind when building top-rope anchors is the maximum force that can be applied, even though probably never will lol, is 20 kN at the masterpoint so all of your anchors together as one need to withstand 20kN to be considered a solid anchor. Redundancy is hard to do but you can work towards that target number to achieve a great anchor.


climbingaggie03


May 1, 2012, 9:00 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I'm an AMGA Single Pitch Instructor, and in our course we set up top ropes both ways, but when I'm guiding, I usually prefer to use a static rope, especially if I"m going to be using trees that are a good distance from the edge.

The biggest advantage of static rope is that it's much easier to adjust than webbing.

Typicallly, if I'm using 2 trees for my anchor, I'll tie one end of the rope around one tree with a bowline, figure out about where my power point is, and then sling the other tree and clove hitch the rope to a locking biner on the sling.

Then I go and tie my power point and hang my rope, if I want to adjust it, I can adjust the bowline, the knot at my power point, or the clove hitch.

All the knots in the rope are easy to untie, vs if I used webbing for the same site, the water knots would be a pain to get undone at the end of the day.

Also if you're going to hang 2 ropes near each other and you have a pretty long static line, if you don't need too much rope for either set up, sometimes you can use the same static rope for both anchors.

I'd say weight is the biggest drawback to static vs webbing.


tradmanclimbs


May 1, 2012, 9:04 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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#1 Permanent tree anchors suck in most situations. Sometimes the rock @ the top of a climb is too crappy to bolt and there just happens to be a good tree there so in those few situations the tree anchor is the best option. 90% of the time a bolted anchor is the better more enviro frendly option.

If you must use a tree anchor, webbing sucks. Climbing rope seems to last much longer. I cut up the good sections of my retired lead ropes and use those as tree anchors when nessicary.


acorneau


May 1, 2012, 9:06 AM
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Re: The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
This is really sad and my condolences her family and friends. It really bothers me when I see or hear about things like this, anchor or human error/failure. Some words of advice, and if you don't agree with me then you need to seek out professional training from PCGI or AMGA, rock climbing books and rock gyms and their employees (usually) give people a false sense of security. ANYONE can write a book about climbing, ANYONE! For example: Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills...great book but some of the techiniques they demonstrate in there are WAYYY out-dated and old school, some are straight up dangerous. Rock climbing anchors books are trying to find ways to solve every problem you'll encounter which is impossible and confusing for beginners who read them. Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing. If you disagree then you need to seek out professional training. I'm sure there's many people who will disagree with that. Take a course from a pro organization and you'll learn the correct ways.

NEGuiding wrote:
I agree Patto. 100%. Older climbers used webbing and it's still being used today by untrained people. Actually, I've even seen trained people use it. It's very unsafe and hopefully people will understand that someday. Guides use static cord, no questions asked. None of my guides use webbing.

NEGuiding wrote:
It is not an overstatement or my own "personal opinion" it is a professional statement that myself and many other guides work from. Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever. You obviously have never had any formal training from PCGI or the AMGA. You are a good example of an "un-trained climber" if you disagree with my post. I'd rather not argue under this thread like you said, link me to where you would like to chat :)

NEGuiding wrote:
Webbing (not slings) has NO place in a top-rope set up, period. What is your friends name? Because the man who co-wrote the amga rock guide curriculum and was one of the first certified AMGA rock guides in the US is a per-diem guide with me and absolutely despises webbing. I am also a board of directors member with PCGI. I don't know what caused this accident I was just going by what everyone who posted above me was saying. I just pointed out the webbing issues because it's a common cause of climbing accidents in the US. Just because you've been climbing for 50 years doesn't mean you've been doing it right. I've been climbing and guiding for a 3rd of that and know the dangers of webbing. Google 'AMGA SPI Manual' or 'SPI gear list' and you will see NO mention of webbing. My comany is a PCGI course provider and we DO NOT allow webbing or teach people how to use it in courses. Hopefully nobody listens to you on this safety matter, take a professional level course and you'll see what I mean.



Ok, NEGuiding, here's your chance to explain:

1. Why anyone who uses webbing in a TR system "has no clue".

2. Why webbing is "very unsafe".

3. Why webbings shouldn't be used for top-rope anchor systems.


The floor is yours...


Unimpressed


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 9:10 AM
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Re: [climbingaggie03] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Yeah, another good example of static use climbingaggie! Clove hitch is easy to "micro-adjust" to stabilize your masterpoint. And if that second anchor, the clove hitched one, can with stand 20 Kn you can use it as part of another anchor to set up multiple top ropes. The classic "W" set up for side by side top ropes.

Not sure if I explained that well lol hard via typing but take this: You have 2 top ropes you want to set up. Your anchor choices are 3 trees for example. So at each masterpoint your target number is 20 kN...so the left and right trees could be anchored with bowline or figure eight follow thru and the middle tree could have a clove hitch on a biner (for micro-adjusting). Now you're left with 2 "triangles" or a "W". Build your 2 masterpoints, equalize etc and you have 2 side by side top ropes.


billcoe_


May 1, 2012, 9:11 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Thanks for creating this post wonderwoman, I'm not usually on rc.com so not sure how to use nowadays. Felt bad posting in that other post but I was just replying. I apologize.

NJrox, using webbing for rappel anchors the way you describe is where it should be used, great choice and using 2 pieces with rap rings is GREAT! Keep that up. But for top rope set ups it is frowned upon highly these days because of many accidents in recent years. Webbing reacts quickly to sunlight, drying it out. If you've climbed you know but seeing old rap anchors and stations where the webbing is almost dry rotted. It also tears easily if used as a masterpoint. I use webbing like you do, over my static rope as added protection and that's it. In reply to that other guys comment about a 2 point anchor, I'll explain and hopefully it is understood.

2 bolts with static rope as an anchor: put a figure eight on a bight on each end of the static rope and clip each of them into a locking carabiner that is in each bolt then equalize the 2 points and create a masterpoint. Simple as that. That is how guides do it, that is how we as guides teach it and that is how you will learn to do it if you take a professional level course with AMGA or PCGI and even PCIA for that matter. It's a very simple set up, efficient and can withstand a lot of weight and wear and tear. The only time I carry an actual piece of webbing on me is on a multi-pitch route to replace old/worn-out rap anchors, that's it.

Unless you can show the data on your claim that old webbing dries up and is thus next to useless, I'm calling bullshit. We pulled some old faded to white ratty stuff off a climb back in the 80's and my engineering bud tested it and it was still amazingly high. 1 inch tubular is great stuff for top rope anchors. It is a little more difficult to tie off quickly, and it is more prone to cutting on a sharp edge as there is more surface area exposed, but is otherwise excellent. As Njox says, never just have a single point of support and you'll be good to go.

I often just use a partial piece of cut short dynamic rope. It works fine, but has stretching/rubbing issues you need to be aware of, and never trust a single point with yer life.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 9:16 AM
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Re: [acorneau] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I just explained acorneau.

1. Not to say doesn't have a clue but just not properly trained, not in tune with recent testing and new methods.

2. I explained above why webbing is unsafe.

3. Also explained above, thanks for the floor ;)

Do this, take a 3 foot piece of webbing and rub it on a rock edge. It doesn't have to be sharp. And then do the same with a 3 piece of static rope. The reason for the length is to wrap around your hands to apply a minimal amount of pressure like you would have in a top rope setting. After you do that get back to me with the results and I'm positive you will be against webbing just from that simple test.

Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 9:27 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Billcoe, the only thing I can say to you is I just explained to you what guides do in several different applications. Whether it be trees, boulders or artificial anchors. I invite you take some professional training from AMGA, PCGI or PCIA and you'll see what I mean. The main and first choice for building anchors IS static rope, plain and simple. It's safer and easily adjustable.

If you hold a piece of webbing in one hand and static rope in the other hand which would you trust your life with? It's like comparing a piece of woven tape to 8 pieces of low or zero stretch (static)climbing rope. I'm going to go with the static rope lol!

I have this discussion a lot with novice and old climbers.


skurdeycat


May 1, 2012, 9:28 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
I just explained acorneau.
Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.

I'm not going to join the webbing vs. static rope debate, but you'll lose any credibility with the engineers and scientists here if you continue to insist that the strength of webbing is dependent on its water content.

Webbing exposed to the UV rays in sunlight degrades over time, people have died from using old slings. Wet clothes dry in the sun, webbing doesn't.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 9:31 AM
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That's what I meant by drying out, exposed to UV rays. Many accidents have been caused by this.


jt512


May 1, 2012, 9:32 AM
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Re: [climbingaggie03] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever. You obviously have never had any formal training from PCGI or the AMGA. . . .

[T]ake a professional level course and you'll see what I mean.

climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'm an AMGA Single Pitch Instructor, and in our course we set up top ropes both ways [static rope and webbing] . . .

@NEGuiding, Climbingaggie03 took the course, as you suggested, and in so doing, invalidated your argument from authority.

Jay


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 9:52 AM
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olderic


May 1, 2012, 10:06 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Did not "invalidate" my authority lol! /


Each additional "lol" you write lowers your credibility another 10%. Are you 13 years old? Your pontifications are amusing but you really aren't that funny.

People who have a black and white view of things tend to be inexperienced. Not always but usually.


tradmanclimbs


May 1, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Seen lots of Guides do stuff that is definatly oriented twords guideing and is not nessicarly needed or practical in real world climbing between equal partners. Just saying that just because AMGA or PCGI which I had never heard of prior to today say that you have to do something a cretain way does not mean that is the best or only way to do it. Just means that is the way they are taught to do it.

That being said I concur with the guides on this one. Rope is much better than webbing for any non leading anchor construction. The 20kn thing is pretty bogus though. I have broken enough climbing gear to figuer out that any climbing situation that comes even remotely close to those kinds of forces is going to be extreemly bad JUJU no matter how strong or redundant your anchor is..


johnwesely


May 1, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Honestly, I think you are just spamming your guiding outfit and attempting to use the recent the recent Gunks accident for some perceived financial gain. Pretty lame.


(This post was edited by johnwesely on May 1, 2012, 10:08 AM)


climbingaggie03


May 1, 2012, 10:11 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I took the course in 2009 (I think).

It was a while back, but I'm fairly certain that I used some tied slings in my anchors.


(This post was edited by climbingaggie03 on May 1, 2012, 7:46 PM)


curt


May 1, 2012, 10:12 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
That's what I meant by drying out, exposed to UV rays. Many accidents have been caused by this.

In spite of apparently being certified as a guide, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You have thus far stated absolutely nothing factual related to the safety (or lack thereof) of using webbing to build a proper TR anchor. You have merely stated your opinion quite strongly. Furthermore, commenting on old aging webbing, as is sometimes found at rap stations, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of constructing a TR anchor with webbing vs static rope.

Curt


jt512


May 1, 2012, 10:12 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Did not "invalidate" my authority lol! When did he take the course would be a good question and who was the course provider because I would LOVE to know...

AMGA SPI Manual: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aai.cc%2Fpdf_download%2Freg_packet%2Fspi_program_manual_2011.pdf&ei=shKgT7nOEMbgtgfi3tDcBA&usg=AFQjCNEskQ9ShvLPATfB5sFxRJ_I17_qWQ

NO mention of webbing, some of my guides have taken the course THIS year and they do not demonstrate the use of webbing nor did they even discuss the use of webbing. If the above link doesn't work let me know and I can email you the manual/pdf.

Here are required gear lists for the course from top providers, which again webbing is not in the list: Google 'AMGA SPI gear list'. Again NO mention of webbing.

Now onto the PCGI who is AMGA's competitor, which I am a board member and course provider for: go to www.guidesinstitute.org and look at ALL of their required gear lists for TRG and SPG courses. Again NO webbing. They don't even demonstrate it's use. http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/site/content/view/15/34/

I skimmed through the 63-page manual, and I see nowhere in there that it says that webbing is unsuitable in TR anchors, or that static rope is the only material suitable for TR anchors, or even that static rope is preferable to webbing. But I didn't read every word, so maybe I missed it. Please point out to me in the manual where any of those statements are made.

Jay


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 10:20 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Yeah 20 kN is a pretty high number and way beyond what a human body can withstand but it is a worse case scenario. And John, I am not using an accident to benefit. Sadly, accidents make us aware of the dangers and hazards that exist in the outdoor industry and especially in vertical 5th class terrain. That's the reason why guiding/outfitting insurance is so high. Around $3000 annually and $5000 for overseas.

A couple of weeks ago I witnessed an accident in North Carolina at Crowders Mountain, when I responded to it and yelled down to the belayer she had no clue how to escape a belay or perform a simple "pick-off" to aid in the injured lead climber who was dangling upside down, unconscious and bleeding heavily. After witnessing that I offered 3 FREE rescue clinics at this park to educate recreational climbers in 3 basic skills that every climber should know: how to escape a belay, pick off/counter weighted rappel and class IV mitigation and negotiation. So to say I'm benefiting from this is disgusting and way out of line.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 10:28 AM
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Re: [jt512] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Jt is doesn't mention webbing at all, that was my point. And Curt, your thoughts are invalid here because all you like to do is argue on forums so move along. I recall mentioning something about soft southwest route ratings a few years ago on a forum and you flew off the handle. So you will be ignored.

My thought on this is use static rope for extending anchors in a top rope set up people. Take this from a professional. Is it really that hard to buy a piece of static cord and retire your webbing? Your life is on the line and others if you're top-roping on it. Do you really want to take that chance? Don't listen to older climbers about webbing just because they say "I've been doing this for 25 years or 30 years or whatever" Just because you've been doing something for al ong time doesn't mean that you've been doing it right.

If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 10:38 AM
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long and gaines 2nd ed pg 23 ....

trust someone who is well known and respected in the industry for specializing in anchors ... or someone on the RC intrawebs ... yr call Wink


edge


May 1, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Re: [acorneau] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
It is not an overstatement or my own "personal opinion" it is a professional statement that myself and many other guides work from. Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever. You obviously have never had any formal training from PCGI or the AMGA. You are a good example of an "un-trained climber" if you disagree with my post. I'd rather not argue under this thread like you said, link me to where you would like to chat :)

Interesting.

Tell me, what is that connection on the two nearest legs of this anchor, as being taught?



Oh, I hope it is alright for me to borrow that from your guiding site.


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 10:44 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
Honestly, I think you are just spamming your guiding outfit and attempting to use the recent the recent Gunks accident for some perceived financial gain. Pretty lame.

I agree 100%. Disgusting and despicable would be better a better description.

edit for typo.


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on May 1, 2012, 10:45 AM)


curt


May 1, 2012, 10:45 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Jt is doesn't mention webbing at all, that was my point. And Curt, your thoughts are invalid here because all you like to do is argue on forums so move along.

It's not so much that I like to argue, I merely have a low tolerance for incompetence.

NEGuiding wrote:
My thought on this is use static rope for extending anchors in a top rope set up people. Take this from a professional. Is it really that hard to buy a piece of static cord and retire your webbing? Your life is on the line and others if you're top-roping on it. Do you really want to take that chance?

You have yet to factually establish that using webbing is a problem--except in your head.

NEGuiding wrote:
Don't listen to older climbers about webbing just because they say "I've been doing this for 25 years or 30 years or whatever" Just because you've been doing something for a long time doesn't mean that you've been doing it right.

I actually agree with that. You can, for example, drive a car around for 25 years, without using a seatbelt and be fine--so long as you are never in an accident. In that case however, we have plenty of data demonstrating that using the seatbelt is factually safer. You, however, do not have any such data on the use of webbing vs static rope--as it relates to anchor safety.

NEGuiding wrote:
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.

I would not climb with you and I would suggest that others steer clear as well. There are plenty of good, knowledgeable guides out there--you just don't happen to be one of them.

Curt


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Re: [edge] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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The 2 connections are runners, not webbing. If you don't know the difference between a runner and webbing than you probably shouldn't be posting in here. Borrow any pics you want, actually check out our facebook page and you'll see TONS of gear set ups. Also our youtube channel where we discuss boulder assessing, bolt assessing, structural geology for macro and micro structure.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 10:52 AM
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chadnsc


May 1, 2012, 10:54 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Also in that photo, notice the angles. Very wide right? Another common myth that climbers avoid is going out of that angle increases loads. Yes it does but if each anchor can withstand the force/kilonewtons applied then do it. As for the picture from a book above somewhere haha I said before anyone can write a book and publish it. Very few guides and certified professionals write books. Most climbing books are written by seasoned un trained climbers and demonstrate WAY outdated methods. Hey Curt, I'm still ignoring you so move on.

You're a pretty good troll but you're starting to slip up. In you OP in the accident thread you stated that slings(aka runners) and webbing should not be used in a top rope anchor setup.


curt


May 1, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
The 2 connections are runners, not webbing. If you don't know the difference between a runner and webbing than you probably shouldn't be posting in here...

This just keeps getting better and better. Cool

Curt


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 10:58 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:01 AM
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Re: [curt] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Curt I know you think you're some "expert" because you've been climbing a long time. I wish you luck old man


njrox


May 1, 2012, 11:08 AM
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Re: [edge] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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[image]http://www.northeastmountainguiding.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/IMG_3278.332195047_large.JPG[/image]

This is going to sound crazy, but I know EXACTLY where this picture was taken. Upper Cliff, Watchung Reservation. I live 20 minutes away and I have climbed there a million times. On the "tier" where the climber is standing there's hardly any trees to anchor, they're all up above her and back.

That's got to be webbing. I can tell by the length shown in the picture. There's no way it's a sling unless its 10 feet long.


majid_sabet


May 1, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Curt I know you think you're some "expert" because you've been climbing a long time. I wish you luck old man


I'll rope up with curt over you in any days


divnamite


May 1, 2012, 11:12 AM
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Re: [edge] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Is it the angle of the picture or the tails on that double/triple fisherman are really short?


curt


May 1, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Curt I know you think you're some "expert" because you've been climbing a long time. I wish you luck old man

Thanks, but aren't you supposed to be ignoring me?

Actually I'm not sure that I do consider myself an "expert" whatever that is supposed to mean. I am certainly willing to learn new things--and in fact, I still do on a regular basis. I am not, however, willing to let a relatively ignorant individual like you represent a wholly unsubstantiated statement as fact.

Curt


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 11:17 AM
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Re: [curt] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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arent runners basically sewn flat webbing .. hmmmmm

Tongue


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:18 AM
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jt512


May 1, 2012, 11:18 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Curt I know you think you're some "expert" because you've been climbing a long time.

You think you're an expert because you took a class.

Jay


majid_sabet


May 1, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Re: [jt512] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Curt I know you think you're some "expert" because you've been climbing a long time.

You think you're an expert because you took a class.

Jay

he is certified so you watch out before he smack you in the head with his certifications


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:20 AM
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NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:23 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Oh this is just getting amusing now. I have plenty of certifications and have taken MANY classes from professionals and I also employee MANY professionals. My credibility speaks for itself.


madscientist


May 1, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I don't think NEGuiding arguments are holding up to close inspection.

1) Just because the AMGA guide does not mention webbing does not mean that it should not be used. I see no place where it specifically states that it should not be used.

2) In this discussion, the difference between tubular and flat webbing needs to be addressed. Flat webbing is not suitable for top rope set ups since it is prone to being cut over an edge (otherwise I don't see a problem). Tubular webbing is not as prone to being cut, and I don't have any evidence that it is more prone to being cut than a static rope.

3) The "drying out" mentioned by NEGuiding is a poor way to describe what happens to webbing. I believe he is referring to the UV damage that occurs to webbing, and this does not destroy webbing in a matter of hours. Should not be an issue.

4) I have seen poor TR anchors set up by guides, so being a guide does not make me believe you any more or less.

Personally I would like more specifics on the recent accidents caused by using webbing. So far this is the only statements that has me wondering about using tubular webbing as a top rope anchor.


johnwesely


May 1, 2012, 11:28 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Oh this is just getting amusing now. I have plenty of certifications and have taken MANY classes from professionals and I also employee MANY professionals. My credibility speaks for itself.

Then it might be best to shut your mouth? I think all you have managed to accomplish is to show how useless the credentials are.


jt512


May 1, 2012, 11:28 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Jt is doesn't mention webbing at all, that was my point.

The fact that the book doesn't mention webbing does not imply that webbing is unsafe.

NEGuiding wrote:
Also in that photo, notice the angles. Very wide right? Another common myth that climbers avoid is going out of that angle increases loads. Yes it does but if each anchor can withstand the force/kilonewtons applied then do it.

On the other hand, the book does say, "Key Points. The anchor should . . . have no angles that exceed 90 degrees."

Hmm.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 1, 2012, 11:31 AM)


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Re: [madscientist] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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madscientist wrote:
Personally I would like more specifics on the recent accidents caused by using webbing. So far this is the only statements that has me wondering about using tubular webbing as a top rope anchor.

Exactly. Inquiring minds want to know.

I don't want to watch egotistical fights over certifications or who has more experience. I want to know this. ^^


chadnsc


May 1, 2012, 11:35 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.

Bullshit.

As you've now deleted your OP where you gave this advice I guess we can't call you out on that now.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:36 AM
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edge


May 1, 2012, 11:38 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.

Bullshit.

As you've now deleted your OP where you gave this advice I guess we can't call you out on that now.

It's still visible to mods and he deleted it to cover his ass.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:39 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community.


mojomonkey


May 1, 2012, 11:40 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

Your youtube account also includes this "post climbing day interview" with some kids with Northeast Mountain Guide Damon. I assume that is their anchor they are sitting next to, which includes blue webbing and a red cordolette. Do you also let your guides know that "Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." You must not hire guides carefully given that "Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing."

But this thread is pretty useless now since nobody is usefully discussing the merits of either. You've set it up to be all about you and your beliefs/credentials. At least it is out of the accident thread.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: [edge] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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edge I deleted my comments in that thread because it wasn't the place for them. It was disrespectful to argue about webbing and static in that thread as wonderwoman pointed out.


curt


May 1, 2012, 11:41 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
My credibility speaks for itself.

Yep, I'm afraid so.

Curt


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 11:42 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Webbing and runners are designed and constructed differently. Research this on the internet and you'll see. There's plenty of videos showing how webbing is made and also how slings/runners are made.

I still cant grasp the fact that you 2 can't understand why static is better...It seriously amazes me and your lack of knowledge or even to go ahead and do your own research into this issue. Climbers spend all this money on gear and traveling to climb yet...they won't spend money on formal training. I don't understand it.


http://www.yatesgear.com/...ing/slings/index.htm
TOP ROPE ANCHORS

Made of 1" Heavy Duty 6000lb. Type 18 Mil-Spec. flat webbing with a 6" loop sewn at each end. Flat webbing is more resistant to abrasion cutting than 1" tubular webbing. Lengths: 4-8ft, Custom sizes available. Colors: Black, Blue, Red, Yellow, Orange. End to end Strength: 5500lbs(24.5kN)


obviously you know better than the people at yates who make quite a bit of climbing equipment ...

Wink


njrox


May 1, 2012, 11:43 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended.

Is there really much of a difference between nylon sling and nylon webbing? For example, I stated earlier in the thread that I use Sterling Webbing (which is made from nylon), http://www.sterlingrope.com/...116%22_Webbing_Spool


NEGuiding wrote:
You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

I'm sure you fine guide. But, you made a rather bold statement and you can bet that it's going to be challenged.

NEGuiding wrote:
Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

My climbing anchor pics suck. You want to see pics my house and my cars? I got them with my smarts. Cool


In all seriousness though, I'm sure you are a qualified and competent climber and guide. But you’ve gone and completely discounted the use of webbing and that’s open for debate and even criticism.


(This post was edited by njrox on May 1, 2012, 11:50 AM)


chadnsc


May 1, 2012, 11:43 AM
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edge wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.

Bullshit.

As you've now deleted your OP where you gave this advice I guess we can't call you out on that now.

It's still visible to mods and he deleted it to cover his ass.

So am I remembering correctly or do I need to apologize? Seriously.


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 11:46 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents.

Honestly, I had never heard of an accident like the one that recently happened in the gunks and there still isn't proof that it was due to webbing failure. I hope that top rope anchors just falling apart are and will continue to be a rarity.

I would like to know about webbing failure incidents. This is all news to me. I haven't seen evidence of this yet.


curt


May 1, 2012, 11:48 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents.

If you don't back up your ridiculous assertions with some references pretty soon, we can all safely assume you are indeed full of shit.

Curt


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Re: [njrox] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Yes there is a difference between webbing and nylon slings.

I like being challenged, I'm a professional guide, it's my career, I own one of the largest guiding outfits in the Eastern US. This is what I do for a living.

Pics are hard to show what is exactly happening but I can show pics of cars too if you want haha! Because this thread is going nowhere.

Safety is my biggest concern and I educate climbers on a daily basis of innovative techniques. The most common are using static instead of webbing, tying that ridiculous and useless fishermans knot above your tie-in figure eight and people saying any helmet is good for climbing.


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Is this JOSEPH VULPIS who is posting, or another member of the NE Guiding staff? You should at least identify yourself and lend some credibility to you claims regarding certification and training.

I really hope that potential clients of NE Guiding will find this thread before they make the decision to pay you for your services. Besides being very poor debater, you have displayed a true lack of class on a thread dealing with a fatality. You have been completely unable to justify your initial assertion that using "webbing or spectra/dyneema slings" for top ropes is "unsafe" and has "no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." As a professional with "plenty of certifications" that has "taken MANY classes" you should be able to do this rather easily. That speaks volumes about your knowledge of a subject about which you profess to be an expert and your ability to educate others.

Let me put it another way; you are coming across as incredibly incompetent. Based on your posts in this thread, it seems to me that NE Guiding might not be the best place for individuals to pay for courses or professional guiding.


Gmburns2000


May 1, 2012, 11:52 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community.

I'm not sure this is what guides use static rope these days. I'm not a guide, but I know a few. The reason I know they use them is because static rope tends to be easier to set up and break down quickly, which is a common necessity for guides at single-pitch crags.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:54 AM
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Wonderwoman, I didn't say that's what happened in that accident. I clearly said that many times I was responding to others comment about it and I just pointed out a common issue. Whoever those other peole are were the ones who said it.


curt


May 1, 2012, 11:55 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
I would like to know about webbing failure incidents. This is all news to me. I haven't seen evidence of this yet.

You won't see evidence of this either--because it doesn't exist.

Curt


acorneau


May 1, 2012, 11:57 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
edge wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.

Bullshit.

As you've now deleted your OP where you gave this advice I guess we can't call you out on that now.

It's still visible to mods and he deleted it to cover his ass.

So am I remembering correctly or do I need to apologize? Seriously.


I transfered all his quotes from the other thread to this one when I made my post (#9) here...

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2581659#2581659


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:58 AM
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This is going nowhere, nice chatting with you and I wish you well.


mojomonkey


May 1, 2012, 11:59 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area. I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

What exactly are you trying to say by the bolded section above? It isn't that you can't go above 90 degrees or it is a death sentence, but it is dumb rigging. At 45 degrees, the load is roughly split between the two components. As the angle increases, so does the force on each piece. At 120 degrees each leg is taking the full load. Why would you want to do that, even if both pieces could handle that load? Decrease the angle and increase your margin of safety.

Do you find that keeping the angle under 90 degrees is that difficult or constraining that you regularly feel you need to open up your possibilities? Does this happen when you are guiding?


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 11:59 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, I didn't say that's what happened in that accident. I clearly said that many times I was responding to others comment about it and I just pointed out a common issue. Whoever those other peole are were the ones who said it.

Regardless, I still want to know of webbing related accidents.


boymeetsrock


May 1, 2012, 12:00 PM
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mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

Your youtube account also includes this "post climbing day interview" with some kids with Northeast Mountain Guide Damon. I assume that is their anchor they are sitting next to, which includes blue webbing and a red cordolette. Do you also let your guides know that "Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." You must not hire guides carefully given that "Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing."

But this thread is pretty useless now since nobody is usefully discussing the merits of either. You've set it up to be all about you and your beliefs/credentials. At least it is out of the accident thread.

And since NEG and his staff are such experts, I'm sure he took them to task for the power point not extending over the edge of the cliff and the two students sitting unsecured at the edge of the cliff.


jt512


May 1, 2012, 12:01 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area.

I have no problem with using angles greater than 90 degrees in an anchor, provided the effect of those angles on the gear is understood and taken into account in the construction of the anchor. What I have a problem with is someone, in one breath, claiming that a particular book is so authoritative that its mere omission of something is considered proof that that something is unsafe, while in the next breath ignoring an explicit prohibition in the same book.

In reply to:
I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

Between Curt's degree in materials engineering and his depth of trad climbing experience, he undoubtedly has a deeper understanding of how an anchor's angles affect its strength than the rest of us do combined.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 1, 2012, 12:50 PM)


curt


May 1, 2012, 12:01 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, I didn't say that's what happened in that accident. I clearly said that many times I was responding to others comment about it and I just pointed out a common issue. Whoever those other peole are were the ones who said it.

Regardless, I still want to know of webbing related accidents.

Don't hold your breath.

Curt


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 12:04 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
This is going nowhere, nice chatting with you and I wish you well.

I would disagree. It did not go where you wanted it to go. However, this thread went a long way toward demonstrating that you are unable to back up the assertions that you make about anchors and that you appear to have a weak grasp of a subject about which you profess to be an expert.

edit for grammatical error


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on May 1, 2012, 12:06 PM)


acorneau


May 1, 2012, 12:04 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.


I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer.

Wink


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 12:05 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Yes there is a difference between webbing and nylon slings.

I like being challenged, I'm a professional guide, it's my career, I own one of the largest guiding outfits in the Eastern US. This is what I do for a living.

Pics are hard to show what is exactly happening but I can show pics of cars too if you want haha! Because this thread is going nowhere.

Safety is my biggest concern and I educate climbers on a daily basis of innovative techniques. The most common are using static instead of webbing, tying that ridiculous and useless fishermans knot above your tie-in figure eight and people saying any helmet is good for climbing.

http://www.sterlingrope.com/...7/Webbing_and_Slings

in addition to the yates link i posted above ... you can basically see that for some sling sterling basically uses the same flat webbing they sell in bulk ...

guess you know better than yates and sterling Tongue


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 12:05 PM
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acorneau wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.


I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer.

Wink

That would be cruel.


njrox


May 1, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community.

I'm not sure this is what guides use static rope these days. I'm not a guide, but I know a few. The reason I know they use them is because static rope tends to be easier to set up and break down quickly, which is a common necessity for guides at single-pitch crags.

Guides show up with discount-purchased or company-provided 150 foot Petzl Vector Static ropes. $$$$

Meanwhile, climbers are buying PMI-EZ bend at .80 a foot, by the foot. Of couse you're going to need to supplement the length with cord or webbing. Especially when relying on trees for anchors.


curt


May 1, 2012, 12:10 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
This is going nowhere, nice chatting with you and I wish you well.

I also wish you well. Hopefully, you will learn something today about posting baseless assertions in forums where things of that nature are questioned and critical rigor is encouraged.

...but somehow I doubt it. Cool

Curt


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 12:15 PM
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NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Good point NJrox, money becomes an issue. Definitely more affordable but remember it's yours r anothers life on the line so should money be an issue? If you can't afford the proper gear to play outdoors then you shouldn't be doing it.


Gmburns2000


May 1, 2012, 12:27 PM
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njrox wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community.

I'm not sure this is what guides use static rope these days. I'm not a guide, but I know a few. The reason I know they use them is because static rope tends to be easier to set up and break down quickly, which is a common necessity for guides at single-pitch crags.

Guides show up with discount-purchased or company-provided 150 foot Petzl Vector Static ropes. $$$$

Meanwhile, climbers are buying PMI-EZ bend at .80 a foot, by the foot. Of couse you're going to need to supplement the length with cord or webbing. Especially when relying on trees for anchors.

that may be part of it as well, but they've all told me static was simply easier.


johnwesely


May 1, 2012, 12:27 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
acorneau wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.


I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer.

Wink

That would be cruel.

I actually considered it, but then I realized I have no desire to ever take a class on top roping.


johnwesely


May 1, 2012, 12:31 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
And ncrockclimber chimes in ;) I think I know who you are. Funny...I hear NEGuiding is taking about 80-90% of the NC clients out climbing and local egotistical guide services are struggling ;)

I guess you are talking about Fox Mountain Guides? If they only have 10% market share now, why have I heard of them and not you? Also, if you are rolling in the dough like you claim you are, how come you are not supporting local access groups like Fox does?


NEGuiding


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ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 12:36 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
And ncrockclimber chimes in ;) I think I know who you are. Funny...I hear NEGuiding is taking about 80-90% of the NC clients out climbing and local egotistical guide services are struggling ;)

It is nice to see that you are ready to act like an ass to another professional without provocation. You just can't help digging your hole a little deeper.

Based on your comments above, you seem to think I am Adam of Fox Mountain Guides. I am not. I do, however, know him in passing and by reputation. I also know a few folks that have guided for him. Unlike you, his reputation for being a knowledgeable guide and proficient instructor is well know.

Lest you think I am being disingenuous, I post under NC Rock Climber here, on Super Topo and Mtn Project. I lived in NC from 2005 to 2011. I moved to Phoenix in May of last year. That info is in my MP profile. I have also referenced my move in a few of my MP posts where I have been asking a lot of noob questions about the AZ and Utah. I am not and never have been a guide in NC.

To put it another way, once again you prove that you don't know what you are taking about.


madscientist


May 1, 2012, 12:40 PM
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The only "failures" I know of ones like the one John Sherman experienced.

http://www.supertopo.com/...9434&f=0&b=0

However, this was using a thin slings girth hitched together, and not the one inch tubular webbing used for top-rope setups. Before you go and panic about using dyneema, read the link I posted carefully. There are many things to consider.

I do believe that there was one more accident like the Sherman one, but I don't recall the specifics.

I also hope that NEGuiding is not using this sort of accident to make the blanket statement that webbing should not be used to set up top ropes.


marc801


May 1, 2012, 12:46 PM
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ncrockclimber wrote:
It is nice to see that you are ready to act like an ass to another professional without provocation. You just can't help digging your hole a little deeper.
I thought NE Guiding sounded familiar. Those who are unaware might want to read this thread for some background perspective on the professionalism of this outfit.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2154888


MFC


May 1, 2012, 12:48 PM
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I think the "biggest" problem of using webbing as top rope anchor material, is when it hangs over the edge of the cliff.

Webbing is not as cut resistant as static line.
Tom Moyer presented a paper at ITRS, "Qualifying a Rescue Rope."

In that paper he tested webbing vs. static line in various "cutting/abrasion" scenarios.

His paper can be viewed/downloaded at:
www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 12:49 PM
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madscientist wrote:
The only "failures" I know of ones like the one John Sherman experienced.

http://www.supertopo.com/...9434&f=0&b=0

Yes, I am aware of the issues, limits and controversies with dyneema. I agree that it is different than a top rope webbing failure.

madscientist wrote:
I also hope that NEGuiding is not using this sort of accident to make the blanket statement that webbing should not be used to set up top ropes.

In the previous thread regarding a top rope accident he had made a blanket statement about never using webbing to set up a top rope and to only use static rope.


5dGbpE8J


May 1, 2012, 12:57 PM
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A bit off topic, but I've been wanting to get a static rope for top rope set ups. I took an anchor setting class and really liked that approach.

Would this be appropriate and any suggestion for a good length to get?

http://www.rei.com/product/472013/pmi-e-z-bend-sport-11mm-static-rope

Thanks.


madscientist


May 1, 2012, 12:59 PM
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MFC wrote:
I think the "biggest" problem of using webbing as top rope anchor material, is when it hangs over the edge of the cliff.

Webbing is not as cut resistant as static line.
Tom Moyer presented a paper at ITRS, "Qualifying a Rescue Rope."

In that paper he tested webbing vs. static line in various "cutting/abrasion" scenarios.

His paper can be viewed/downloaded at:
www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing

That is an informative link, and might have saved some trouble earlier. Thanks for sharing. I am convinced that a good static rope is better, but not convinced that webbing is a death sentence.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:01 PM
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madscientist wrote:
MFC wrote:
I think the "biggest" problem of using webbing as top rope anchor material, is when it hangs over the edge of the cliff.

Webbing is not as cut resistant as static line.
Tom Moyer presented a paper at ITRS, "Qualifying a Rescue Rope."

In that paper he tested webbing vs. static line in various "cutting/abrasion" scenarios.

His paper can be viewed/downloaded at:
www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing

That is an informative link, and might have saved some trouble earlier. Thanks for sharing. I am convinced that a good static rope is better, but not convinced that webbing is a death sentence.

I agree, great test on that and others too on his website.


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 1:05 PM
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many if not most TR setups dont run over an edge around here...

i still find it hilarious that the someone will use slings, but not webbing ... which manufacturers make their sewn slings out of (sterling, yates)

Wink


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:06 PM
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5dGbpE8J wrote:
A bit off topic, but I've been wanting to get a static rope for top rope set ups. I took an anchor setting class and really liked that approach.

Would this be appropriate and any suggestion for a good length to get?

http://www.rei.com/product/472013/pmi-e-z-bend-sport-11mm-static-rope

Thanks.
Glad to see you had a good instructor on your anchor building class. 50 feet is a nice length to build anchors at most top rope crags. 100 feet is always better but a little too much to carry I think. Our guides carry 60-80' of static on all top rope trips and courses.


jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 1:10 PM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Just to throw out who we are talking to...
http://www.northeastmountainguiding.com/..._staff/joseph_vulpis



Nice of them to anchor clients in with non lockers



jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 1:16 PM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.

Bullshit. If that is so then a Rap anchors on trees across the country would be useless hours after they were put up.

AND you say you put webbing rap anchors on routes so in your opinion you are setting a trap for someone else?


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:18 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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It's a fact on what UV rays do too webbing or any material for that matter haha! And I "replace" them on routes. But we're talking about a top-roping environment NOT a simple rappel anchor one might encounter on a route slung around a tree.

Thanks for the pic post too ;)


johnwesely


May 1, 2012, 1:21 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.


jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 1:22 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
It's a fact on what UV rays do too webbing or any material for that matter haha! And I "replace" them on routes. But we're talking about a top-roping environment NOT a simple rappel anchor one might encounter on a route slung around a tree.

Thanks for the pic post too ;)

Yes, but if a TR anchor is weakened in one climbing session how is a sling put around a tree that is left out for weeks and months and used perhaps on a daily basis going to react?


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:24 PM
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bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 1:24 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
It's a fact on what UV rays do too webbing or any material for that matter haha! And I "replace" them on routes. But we're talking about a top-roping environment NOT a simple rappel anchor one might encounter on a route slung around a tree.

Thanks for the pic post too ;)

u stated in a matter hour hours or a day ... whats the difference between leaving a sling/webbing on a tree for a few hours ... or carrying it on yr shoulder exposed for a few hours ... hmmmm

still quite funny that "runners" are safe, but webbing from the same material aint Wink


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 1:28 PM
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So, NE, since you're still here... How about those tope rope webbing failures?


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:28 PM
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I "replace" them for my own and clients safety and educate/tell others climbers to do the same when they encounter them and need to rappel off of them.


johnwesely


May 1, 2012, 1:29 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:30 PM
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jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 1:31 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
I "replace" them for my own and clients safety and educate/tell others climbers to do the same when they encounter them and need to rappel off of them.

Bullshit.

and even more bullshit that you think that a piece of webbing can't be used for more than one day.

You should probably quit climbing now because your understanding of this sport are NOT good. not good at all.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:32 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.


redlude97


May 1, 2012, 1:40 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
So, NE, since you're still here... How about those tope rope webbing failures?

Sorry, I'm not an internet junky and don't possess a folder of accident links but if you look at the high angle rescue post above and read the results that should be enough info for you ;) My knowledge of climbing accidents is from rangers, witnesses, guides, friends, my own experiences, etc.
Are you saying that you've seen or heard of webbing spontaneously disintegrate after 1 day outside then?


jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 1:40 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
I "replace" them for my own and clients safety and educate/tell others climbers to do the same when they encounter them and need to rappel off of them.

So you are leaving trash on the cliffs that no one else can use in the future to convenience your guiding activities. LNT my ass.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:46 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
I "replace" them for my own and clients safety and educate/tell others climbers to do the same when they encounter them and need to rappel off of them.

So you are leaving trash on the cliffs that no one else can use in the future to convenience your guiding activities. LNT my ass.
You name me a crag that has trees where rap anchors don't exist, I'd LOVE to see that.


majid_sabet


May 1, 2012, 1:46 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Oh this is just getting amusing now. I have plenty of certifications and have taken MANY classes from professionals and I also employee MANY professionals. My credibility speaks for itself.

can you scan and show us your certificates ?

how do we know you are no making this up ?


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 1:51 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Oh this is just getting amusing now. I have plenty of certifications and have taken MANY classes from professionals and I also employee MANY professionals. My credibility speaks for itself.

can you scan and show us your certificates ?

how do we know you are no making this up ?

All on my website. Links to organizations I'm involved with, etc. no need to scan


madscientist


May 1, 2012, 1:52 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
So, NE, since you're still here... How about those tope rope webbing failures?

I agree. Cannot find any accidents myself. It is one thing to show that static cord is better, but another to show that webbing is unsafe. Any evidence that webbing is unsafe has not emerged from this "discussion."

I just want to know if there is any basis to this claim.


majid_sabet


May 1, 2012, 1:53 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Oh this is just getting amusing now. I have plenty of certifications and have taken MANY classes from professionals and I also employee MANY professionals. My credibility speaks for itself.

can you scan and show us your certificates ?

how do we know you are no making this up ?

All on my website. Links to organizations I'm involved with, etc. no need to scan


what is the link ?


curt


May 1, 2012, 1:56 PM
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madscientist wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
So, NE, since you're still here... How about those tope rope webbing failures?

I agree. Cannot find any accidents myself. It is one thing to show that static cord is better, but another to show that webbing is unsafe. Any evidence that webbing is unsafe has not emerged from this "discussion."

I just want to know if there is any basis to this claim.

No. There is absolutely NO basis to his claim.

Curt


shimanilami


May 1, 2012, 2:00 PM
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This is an amazing thread.

Do any you have jobs?


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 2:12 PM
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shimanilami wrote:
This is an amazing thread.

Do any you have jobs?

I took the day off to work on my final paper, um, I mean argue with people on RC.com.


jeepnphreak


May 1, 2012, 2:19 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.

Bullshit. If that is so then a Rap anchors on trees across the country would be useless hours after they were put up.

AND you say you put webbing rap anchors on routes so in your opinion you are setting a trap for someone else?


Total bull shit!!!!!!
Most of the trees in my area at the top of almost every ice climb has webbing on it from about October to about mid March/April. 6 months of sun and weather exposure and I have yet to see a webbing failure. If the webbing is suspect then yes, replace it . Each spring the climbing col. comes around and cuts off the old webbing to clean up what been left over the winter, after cutting out 6 month webbing its surprisingly strong still.

NEGuiding, it seems like. . . or at least you come across as if you have taken a few classes and are knowledgeable text book wise, but have minimal experience and yet to think for yourself and question what you are spewing makes since. Its good that guides are taught to over build anchors but webbing is much stronger than you think it is.
I use 1 in tubular for slack line setups. 180* anchor with a 8:1 pulley system and then toss in my 160 lb butt and I guarantee than webbing is seeing over more force than any top rope setup (reason: each biner in the pulley system, the gates are bound up from the tension)

So back to the OP question, IF I was guiding or running a lot or TR, I would use static rope, simply on the fact that static rope will take more abuse than webbing.
I rarely run top rope laps, so I prefer webbing for rap station because its lighter and cheaper to leave behind.


Gmburns2000


May 1, 2012, 2:21 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.

I don't disagree with requiring guides to have insurance (carrying one is probably unnecessary as a simple registration process would keep guides up to date), but I have heard of this tactic before, and it's usually not presented as an option because the guide cares for the well-being of other guiding company clients or because it doesn't want the State to get sued. It's usually a tactic used to push out the competition.

Hey, plenty of worse tactics have been used in better industries, so good on you if that's a tactic you're using, but let's not sugarcoat it as if you're doing the world a favor here.


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 2:25 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.

So, you move to a new area where you are unfamiliar with the access issues and the local organizations advocating for climbers, and within a few months you are informing the NC State Parks Service that the CCC is incompetent and lobbying for a change in the way they regulate guides. Did you reach out to anyone in the CCC (or the SCC) about your concerns first? Did you ever think that undermining the CCC you might be damaging access for everyone?


Joey7777


May 1, 2012, 3:06 PM
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ncrockclimber wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.

So, you move to a new area where you are unfamiliar with the access issues and the local organizations advocating for climbers, and within a few months you are informing the NC State Parks Service that the CCC is incompetent and lobbying for a change in the way they regulate guides. Did you reach out to anyone in the CCC (or the SCC) about your concerns first? Did you ever think that undermining the CCC you might be damaging access for everyone?
Apparently RC.com did something to our account, interesting. Anyway, are you serious ncrock climber? An organization rebolts with nail drive (the wrong bolts) in one of the weakest metamorphic rocks out there and they knew this while placing them but continued to place them throughout the park. I know this because after they hammered the pin in and realized it didn't set right they took a pointed tool and proceeded to hammer the pin in even FURTHER! I saw indents on every nail that they drove almost completely thru the sleeve. Making the anchor weaker than it originally was. These bolts are so close to the cliff edges that macro structure was obviously NOT a concern of theirs, one bolt if you clip a carabiner in it the spine rests on the cliff edge. Other bolts they replaced are SAE graded carbon steel bolts (3 slashes on the head) which have more rust on them than the titanic causing galvanic reaction to the clip. Why in the WORLD would I "reach out" to an organization that does this? Tell me that. They have no concern about climbing safety if this is how they "re-bolt" a local crag. I could go on about other bolts in this park if you'd like. If you're an organization representing the climbing community, as you say, wouldn't you hire professionals to change bolts? Or even call up a bolt manufacturer and ask them which bolt they recommend. The NC State Park service NEEDED to be aware of this and I hope they do something to change these bolts before someone gets seriously injured.


Joey7777


May 1, 2012, 3:09 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.

I don't disagree with requiring guides to have insurance (carrying one is probably unnecessary as a simple registration process would keep guides up to date), but I have heard of this tactic before, and it's usually not presented as an option because the guide cares for the well-being of other guiding company clients or because it doesn't want the State to get sued. It's usually a tactic used to push out the competition.

Hey, plenty of worse tactics have been used in better industries, so good on you if that's a tactic you're using, but let's not sugarcoat it as if you're doing the world a favor here.
It pushes out illegal guiding outfits is what it does. The general publics safety is what real guiding outfits should care about like we do.


johnwesely


May 1, 2012, 3:17 PM
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Joey7777 wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.

So, you move to a new area where you are unfamiliar with the access issues and the local organizations advocating for climbers, and within a few months you are informing the NC State Parks Service that the CCC is incompetent and lobbying for a change in the way they regulate guides. Did you reach out to anyone in the CCC (or the SCC) about your concerns first? Did you ever think that undermining the CCC you might be damaging access for everyone?
Apparently RC.com did something to our account, interesting. Anyway, are you serious ncrock climber? An organization rebolts with nail drive (the wrong bolts) in one of the weakest metamorphic rocks out there and they knew this while placing them but continued to place them throughout the park. I know this because after they hammered the pin in and realized it didn't set right they took a pointed tool and proceeded to hammer the pin in even FURTHER! I saw indents on every nail that they drove almost completely thru the sleeve. Making the anchor weaker than it originally was. These bolts are so close to the cliff edges that macro structure was obviously NOT a concern of theirs, one bolt if you clip a carabiner in it the spine rests on the cliff edge. Other bolts they replaced are SAE graded carbon steel bolts (3 slashes on the head) which have more rust on them than the titanic causing galvanic reaction to the clip. Why in the WORLD would I "reach out" to an organization that does this? Tell me that. They have no concern about climbing safety if this is how they "re-bolt" a local crag. I could go on about other bolts in this park if you'd like. If you're an organization representing the climbing community, as you say, wouldn't you hire professionals to change bolts? Or even call up a bolt manufacturer and ask them which bolt they recommend. The NC State Park service NEEDED to be aware of this and I hope they do something to change these bolts before someone gets seriously injured.

Unbelievable. A volunteer from an organization does something you disagree with, and you lambast two groups that have done more for climbing than you could ever hope to.


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 3:21 PM
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Joey7777 wrote:
Apparently RC.com did something to our account, interesting.

Did you just switch user names from NEGuiding? There are no bans on the other name. You need to pick one name and stay with it.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 3:24 PM
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John I'm glad the safety of other climbers is not a concern of yours by the information about bolts I just addressed to you. That makes me think very low of you because this is not a concern of yours. RC.com disabled our pwd wonderwoman, guess a moderator had an issue with something we said.


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 3:28 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
John I'm glad the safety of other climbers is not a concern of yours by the information about bolts I just addressed to you. That makes me think very low of you because this is not a concern of yours. RC.com disabled our pwd wonderwoman, guess a moderator had an issue with something we said.

I don't have the power to do that. And even if I did, I would not disable your password. Own up to your own actions. You are losing credibility, and I am banning your other account.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 3:53 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!
Holy fuck.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 3:58 PM
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boymeetsrock wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

Your youtube account also includes this "post climbing day interview" with some kids with Northeast Mountain Guide Damon. I assume that is their anchor they are sitting next to, which includes blue webbing and a red cordolette. Do you also let your guides know that "Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." You must not hire guides carefully given that "Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing."

But this thread is pretty useless now since nobody is usefully discussing the merits of either. You've set it up to be all about you and your beliefs/credentials. At least it is out of the accident thread.

And since NEG and his staff are such experts, I'm sure he took them to task for the power point not extending over the edge of the cliff and the two students sitting unsecured at the edge of the cliff.
Glad I'm not the only one that noticed that. Or how high the points are on the trunk of the tree.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 3:59 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
acorneau wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.


I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer.

Wink

That would be cruel.

On the participants? I agree.


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 4:01 PM
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webbing or a sling ... hmmm ... either way they suffer the same abrasion and cut issues as webbing ...

not to mention the strength "degrades" in a few hours according to a certain someone Wink


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 4:09 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:


webbing or a sling ... hmmm ... either way they suffer the same abrasion and cut issues as webbing ...

not to mention the strength "degrades" in a few hours according to a certain someone Wink
Those kids are as good as dead!


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 4:16 PM
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Thanks for all the debate but this is going nowhere. Peace and much luck to you all!


kappydane


May 1, 2012, 4:22 PM
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As soon as I watched one of his youtube videos I knew this guy was a tool. He drops in a nut behind a flake and says "multi-directional" ??? But, I guess he climbs 5.12 trad (or so he says) so he must be right. He is the type of "guide" that gives climbing a bad name. He is always right about everything and there is no other way to do things. I'm sure if you go to his local crag he will spray you down when you climb his wired routes and tell you everything you are doing wrong. The pic with the webbing on the anchor shows how hypocritical this guy is.


Gmburns2000


May 1, 2012, 4:40 PM
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Joey7777 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.

I don't disagree with requiring guides to have insurance (carrying one is probably unnecessary as a simple registration process would keep guides up to date), but I have heard of this tactic before, and it's usually not presented as an option because the guide cares for the well-being of other guiding company clients or because it doesn't want the State to get sued. It's usually a tactic used to push out the competition.

Hey, plenty of worse tactics have been used in better industries, so good on you if that's a tactic you're using, but let's not sugarcoat it as if you're doing the world a favor here.
It pushes out illegal guiding outfits is what it does. The general publics safety is what real guiding outfits should care about like we do.

what's illegal? if the park doesn't require it, then how can it be illegal? if they are illegal, then how is having insurance going to change their already illegal status?

no, it's pushing out the small guys who don't want to be like you. nothing wrong with your business and nothing wrong with theirs, unless they really are illegal...and they're only illegal if you change the law on them. otherwise, they're already illegal.

you're not fooling anyone.


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 5:04 PM
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Joey,

I started to craft a response to your statements about the CCC, but it's not worth it. Based on your posts here and the photos on your site of your company using the exact techniques and materials you railed against, I truly feel sorry for people who come to you for instruction.

For those that don't know, the CCC (the group that Joey is railing against) has a 17 year history of preserving, protecting and expanding climbing opportunities in NC. To characterize them as having "no concern about climbing safety" is just wrong. It pains me to see someone who has do so little for the NC community denigrate an organization that has done so much good.

I really hope that anyone who is considering working with Northeast Mountain Guiding will read this thread and understand that there are a lot better options out there.

edit for grammar and spelling, and because a mod asked me to remove some inflammatory phrases


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on May 1, 2012, 6:06 PM)


climbingaggie03


May 1, 2012, 5:46 PM
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mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area. I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

What exactly are you trying to say by the bolded section above? It isn't that you can't go above 90 degrees or it is a death sentence, but it is dumb rigging. At 45 degrees, the load is roughly split between the two components. As the angle increases, so does the force on each piece. At 120 degrees each leg is taking the full load. Why would you want to do that, even if both pieces could handle that load? Decrease the angle and increase your margin of safety.

Do you find that keeping the angle under 90 degrees is that difficult or constraining that you regularly feel you need to open up your possibilities? Does this happen when you are guiding?


I'm not sure if you're asking for personal knowledge, or as a rhetorical question, but I thought I'd answer it. Sometimes due to constraints of the site, you're presented with the choice of using a less than bomber anchor but keeping the angles under 90 or using a completely bomber anchor but having angles over 90. In that situation, I almost always prefer to have greater angles, but stronger anchors. It does increase forces some, but usually it's ultimately stronger.

I wouldn't say it happens often when I'm guiding, but I can think of sites I've been at that didn't have the best options so it helps to expand your options.


mojomonkey


May 1, 2012, 5:55 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area. I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

What exactly are you trying to say by the bolded section above? It isn't that you can't go above 90 degrees or it is a death sentence, but it is dumb rigging. At 45 degrees, the load is roughly split between the two components. As the angle increases, so does the force on each piece. At 120 degrees each leg is taking the full load. Why would you want to do that, even if both pieces could handle that load? Decrease the angle and increase your margin of safety.

Do you find that keeping the angle under 90 degrees is that difficult or constraining that you regularly feel you need to open up your possibilities? Does this happen when you are guiding?


I'm not sure if you're asking for personal knowledge, or as a rhetorical question, but I thought I'd answer it. Sometimes due to constraints of the site, you're presented with the choice of using a less than bomber anchor but keeping the angles under 90 or using a completely bomber anchor but having angles over 90. In that situation, I almost always prefer to have greater angles, but stronger anchors. It does increase forces some, but usually it's ultimately stronger.

I wouldn't say it happens often when I'm guiding, but I can think of sites I've been at that didn't have the best options so it helps to expand your options.

Thanks, but I was more asking what exactly Joe was getting at. He mentioned a few times that wide angles on the legs of an anchor are some sort of myth/misconception that needed to be dispelled. It sounded like he thought it wasn't something to strive for, or that it was frequently enough unachievable to merit dispelling. I realize there are always odd cases, but the way he was bringing it up, especially in a toprope anchoring thread, seemed... odd.


olderic


May 1, 2012, 6:52 PM
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This thread is amazing and even if he never participates in another I am sure NEG has achieved cult status. Not even Enigma could so completely unite all the usually fragmented factions of rc.com in one universal front to deliver a ginormous slap down. In well < 24 hours he has taken himself and his business down in flames...


jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 7:07 PM
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olderic wrote:
This thread is amazing and even if he never participates in another I am sure NEG has achieved cult status. Not even Enigma could so completely unite all the usually fragmented factions of rc.com in one universal front to deliver a ginormous slap down. In well < 24 hours he has taken himself and his business down in flames...

I would climb with Majid before Joey boy over there.. And i have nothing to argue with him in this thread.

/falls over Crazy


climbamt


May 1, 2012, 7:08 PM
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olderic wrote:
This thread is amazing and even if he never participates in another I am sure NEG has achieved cult status. Not even Enigma could so completely unite all the usually fragmented factions of rc.com in one universal front to deliver a ginormous slap down. In well < 24 hours he has taken himself and his business down in flames...

+1


Partner rgold


May 1, 2012, 7:10 PM
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As one of those experienced climbers who hasn't taken the requisite courses, I've stayed out of this one. Vulpis sounds very much like a resurrected Appie and I've already been there and done that.

His bio on the NE Mountain Guiding Site says (http://www.northeastmountainguiding.com/..._staff/joseph_vulpis)

"…currently training for his PCGI Multi-Pitch Guide certification. He…has also taken the PCGI Top-Rope Guide course."

(The emphasis is mine.)

Consulting the PCGI site's list of certified guides indicates that he is not certified as a top-rope guide, not certified as a single-pitch guide, not certified as a lead guide, and not certified as a multi-pitch guide. These are all the certifications that group offers, so he is not certified, period.
(http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/...content/view/78/134/)

As far as webbing vs. static rope, Moyer's tests indicate that one-inch tubular webbing is vastly inferior to static ropes if the rigging is subject to abrasion, either over an edge due to stretching or perpendicular to an edge due to rope motions. The reason is that only a few fibers of rope are abraded at any one time, but tubular and flat webbing basically expose all their fibers to abrasion simultaneously. If I was writing a guide's manual, something I am prevented from doing because of lack of appropriate courses, I'd recommend static rope for guided top-roping.

One-inch tubular webbing (whether sewn into a runner or not) is, however, fine for less intensively used top-rope set-ups for recreational climbers who understand the need for appropriate padding and stabilizing directionals if edges are involved. Those who are not confident in their ability to predict and deal with abrasion should stick to static ropes.

All this said, like everyone else who has commented, I am unaware of webbing top-rope anchors ever failing because of abrasion.

Vigilance is required for either webbing or rope that runs over an edge, even if the edge isn't especially sharp, since abrasion under tension can saw through either rope or webbing in an amazingly short time. Padding and/or supplementary anchors that will immobilize the rigging strands from horizontal motions across an edge are called for if the top-rope is not a straight up-and-down affair.

Probably the ideal set-up is a gear anchor on the cliff face backed up to a tree at the top with either webbing or static rope. The rigging from the tree acts as a back-up for the gear anchor, and the gear anchor prevents any rope motions and loads from contributing to tree rigging abrasion.

UV deterioration is an issue for ropes and slings and can be very noticeable on slings left in place, which should always be treated with caution. But UV deterioration during the course of a few years of top-roping on slings installed and removed each time by the party is not a serious concern.


curt


May 1, 2012, 7:19 PM
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rgold wrote:
As one of those experienced climbers who hasn't taken the requisite courses, I've stayed out of this one. Vulpis sounds very much like a resurrected Appie and I've already been there and done that.

His bio on the NE Mountain Guiding Site says (http://www.northeastmountainguiding.com/..._staff/joseph_vulpis)

"…currently training for his PCGI Multi-Pitch Guide certification. He…has also taken the PCGI Top-Rope Guide course."

(The emphasis is mine.)

Consulting the PCGI site's list of certified guides indicates that he is not certified as a top-rope guide, not certified as a single-pitch guide, not certified as a lead guide, and not certified as a multi-pitch guide. These are all the certifications that group offers, so he is not certified, period.
(http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/...content/view/78/134/)

He is, without a doubt however, certifiable. Cool

Curt


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 7:58 PM
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Re: [rgold] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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From the PCGI website under "Additional Board Members"

In reply to:
Joseph Vulpis - Joseph is the owner and director of Northeast Mountain Guiding and resides in Huntersville, NC. He is a Wilderness EMT Advanced, Search & Rescue Technician (SAR-TECH II) and a High Angle Rescue Technician.

It is interesting to note that while other board members list their PCGI certification, Joseph does not list his.

Is the behavior and "competence" displayed by Joseph is indicative of the type of professionalism that is taught to PCGI guides? I would be interested in hearing about others experience with the PCGI.


jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 8:16 PM
Post #146 of 296 (5419 views)
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Re: [ncrockclimber] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
From the PCGI website under "Additional Board Members"

In reply to:
Joseph Vulpis - Joseph is the owner and director of Northeast Mountain Guiding and resides in Huntersville, NC. He is a Wilderness EMT Advanced, Search & Rescue Technician (SAR-TECH II) and a High Angle Rescue Technician.

It is interesting to note that while other board members list their PCGI certification, Joseph does not list his.

Is the behavior and "competence" displayed by Joseph is indicative of the type of professionalism that is taught to PCGI guides? I would be interested in hearing about others experience with the PCGI.

unlike spewing off on a forum, in real life you can't list certifications you haven't earned yet.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 8:17 PM
Post #147 of 296 (5417 views)
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Re: [ncrockclimber] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
From the PCGI website under "Additional Board Members"

In reply to:
Joseph Vulpis - Joseph is the owner and director of Northeast Mountain Guiding and resides in Huntersville, NC. He is a Wilderness EMT Advanced, Search & Rescue Technician (SAR-TECH II) and a High Angle Rescue Technician.

It is interesting to note that while other board members list their PCGI certification, Joseph does not list his.

Is the behavior and "competence" displayed by Joseph is indicative of the type of professionalism that is taught to PCGI guides? I would be interested in hearing about others experience with the PCGI.
I've heard of AMGA (of course) and PCIA, but never PCGI.


majid_sabet


May 1, 2012, 11:26 PM
Post #148 of 296 (5350 views)
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
So, NE, since you're still here... How about those tope rope webbing failures?

Sorry, I'm not an internet junky and don't possess a folder of accident links but if you look at the high angle rescue post above and read the results that should be enough info for you ;) My knowledge of climbing accidents is from rangers, witnesses, guides, friends, my own experiences, etc.


RC is like one of those dirty rivers in the amazon where you want to cross the water but you are not sure what is in it and unfortunately, you are in the middle of that river .











check out your legs to see if anything is left cause these guys are coming after you


meanandugly


May 2, 2012, 3:25 AM
Post #149 of 296 (5326 views)
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I have a serious issue and belong to a site called Hole Diggers Anonymous and the whole time reading this thread I thought I was on that site. F#*K!!! This is one deep one.


patto


May 2, 2012, 4:22 AM
Post #150 of 296 (5311 views)
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Re: [meanandugly] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Wow. I was hoping there was going to be a some decent discussion on the use of webbing vs static rope. Clearly I was too optimistic on the quality of discussion on RC.com.

Webbing has issues with its knottability and durability. Static cord/rope is FAR FAR more durable. If cost and weight is a concern then 8mm cord compares well with 1" webbing and is much more durable and more easily knottable. If you make a habit of top roping then using 9mm rope simply makes sense.

I don't see any major issues with top ropes built on webbing. But its not ideal, if I fail to see why you would recommend webbing over rope. As I said earlier this is a practice peculiar to north america, it might be wise to assess your own biases rather that assume that the way your were talk is best practice.


(This post was edited by patto on May 2, 2012, 4:22 AM)


david_g48


May 2, 2012, 4:48 AM
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Re: [patto] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Patto
I don't believe that this thread is about what is a superior safety set up for top rope but rather is the use of slings and webbing inadequate. Most of the responses are generated either because NEGuides pushes his opinion in an abrasive manner or that he provides no facts or stats to back up his claims. He talked about people learning from new information but he does not seem open to the opinions and facts from the responses, so how in fact has he demonstrated an ability to learn anything when he feels he knows all there is to know and contradicts his own beliefs via the pictures on his web site. If there is anything to be learned here it is that be gentle in expressing your opinion, be prepared to back it up with facts, and be open to others who have obvious credibility. RG, I believe in my humble opinion did the best presentation. I also believe that static rope is superior to webbing but do not feel that webbing is inherently inadequate.
There never is a singular solution for all situations. This is where judgment, knowledge and experience play into being able to safely set up a top rope.
This post is only my opinion and in no way I'm I trying to force my opinion on others.
Cheers David


meanandugly


May 2, 2012, 5:13 AM
Post #152 of 296 (5215 views)
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Re: [patto] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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No one is saying that static is not the overall beefier choice, but there is nothing wrong with webbing. Saying you should always use webbing because of the added safety is like saying you should always travel in an armoured personal carrier instead of a car because you are more likely to survive a crash. If there were stats to back up the claim that webbing was anything less than safe, I am sure we would all use static all the time....I wonder how many people only use steel biners in their TR set-ups instead of those very unsafe aluminums?


chadnsc


May 2, 2012, 5:21 AM
Post #153 of 296 (5210 views)
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Re: [olderic] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
This thread is amazing and even if he never participates in another I am sure NEG has achieved cult status. Not even Enigma could so completely unite all the usually fragmented factions of rc.com in one universal front to deliver a ginormous slap down. In well < 24 hours he has taken himself and his business down in flames...

Truly NE's troll has united us all. Laugh


patto


May 2, 2012, 5:39 AM
Post #154 of 296 (5201 views)
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Re: [david_g48] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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david_g48 wrote:
Patto
I don't believe that this thread is about what is a superior safety set up for top rope but rather is the use of slings and webbing inadequate. Most of the responses are generated either because NEGuides pushes his opinion in an abrasive manner or that he provides no facts or stats to back up his claims. He talked about people learning from new information but he does not seem open to the opinions and facts from the responses, so how in fact has he demonstrated an ability to learn anything when he feels he knows all there is to know and contradicts his own beliefs via the pictures on his web site. If there is anything to be learned here it is that be gentle in expressing your opinion, be prepared to back it up with facts, and be open to others who have obvious credibility. RG, I believe in my humble opinion did the best presentation. I also believe that static rope is superior to webbing but do not feel that webbing is inherently inadequate.
There never is a singular solution for all situations. This is where judgment, knowledge and experience play into being able to safely set up a top rope.
This post is only my opinion and in no way I'm I trying to force my opinion on others.
Cheers David

Smile
Fair enough. Angelic

I just thought I'd chime in as I was one initiators of the static is better than webbing discussion before this thread blew up.

The reason why I bring it up at all is because in my opinion there are too many beginners being taught to use webbing when really static rope should be being taught as the preferential method. But yes, I, like I believe *most* people here don't believe webbing is inherently inadequate. I'd happily top rope off webbing if that was all I had.


bearbreeder


May 2, 2012, 6:51 AM
Post #155 of 296 (5148 views)
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Re: [olderic] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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i am utterly proud to be an RCer for the first time ever after this thread ...Shocked

off to skaha and yos for the next 3 weeks ... at least i got some good ole fashioned RC fun before i leave Wink


dynosore


May 2, 2012, 7:28 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Has there EVER been a toprope anchor failure due to webbing, when the anchor was properly constructed? My definition of proper is at least two separate anchor points and two separate loops of tubular webbing. Didn't think so Tongue


csproul


May 2, 2012, 7:57 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
John I'm glad the safety of other climbers is not a concern of yours by the information about bolts I just addressed to you. That makes me think very low of you because this is not a concern of yours. RC.com disabled our pwd wonderwoman, guess a moderator had an issue with something we said.
Did you bother to contact the CCC or SEC with your concerns about the bolts at Crowders or did you just go straight to the State Parks? Do you even know that one of these organizations had anything to do with the bolting of those routes? Because I can tell you for sure that while the CCC has supported re-bolting efforts at State Parks, that does not mean that they have been intimately involved with the individual (volunteer) efforts to do so.


markc


May 2, 2012, 8:11 AM
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Re: [patto] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I'm one of those folks who was taught to use webbing years back, and still do for the occasional top-rope session. I have partners who prefer static, and they're welcome to carry it in. In this neck of the woods, many of the TR anchors utilize trees. Some of these can be a decent way back from the cliff edge, and I find it easier to pack in 60-90' of webbing rather than static line. I know there's a trade-off with durability, and I take care to pad edges.

Since I've never had an issue for finding ways to use retired webbing around the house, its more limited lifespan hasn't been a significant enough concern to switch over. I can always cut down a badly abraded section and use the remaining length. Because of the more significant abrasion risk, I inspect webbing visually and physically before each use.


bp_ccc


May 2, 2012, 8:16 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.


I'm Brian Payst and I am a board member for the Carolina Climbers Coalition (CCC) and have been for several years. This reference to CCC bolting work at Crowder's came up in a google alert and I wanted to clarify things. The SCC has not done bolt replacement work at Crowders, the CCC has (at this and other state parks). The Petzl long life bolts that are referred to by NEGuiding were not placed by the CCC.

At the request of the state park (with whom we have built up a great relationship over the years that resulted in opening up the Dixon Road area to bouldering) we sponsored some bolt replacements at Crowder's. We also paid for, and volunteers built, the climber information kiosks. Because of the nature of the rock, glue in bolts were used in the replacements at Crowder's. Not every bolt was replaced and there have been a lot of folks bolting at Crowder's over the years. Everyone should use good judgement when trusting any gear, fixed or otherwise. When in doubt, back it up or down climb.

Thanks to everyone in this discussion who expressed support for the CCC, we're just a bunch of volunteers trying to keep climbing areas open in the Carolinas and wouldn't be as successful as we have been if not for the incredible climbing community we have.


csproul


May 2, 2012, 8:33 AM
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Re: [bp_ccc] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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bp_ccc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.


I'm Brian Payst and I am a board member for the Carolina Climbers Coalition (CCC) and have been for several years. This reference to CCC bolting work at Crowder's came up in a google alert and I wanted to clarify things. The SCC has not done bolt replacement work at Crowders, the CCC has (at this and other state parks). The Petzl long life bolts that are referred to by NEGuiding were not placed by the CCC.

At the request of the state park (with whom we have built up a great relationship over the years that resulted in opening up the Dixon Road area to bouldering) we sponsored some bolt replacements at Crowder's. We also paid for, and volunteers built, the climber information kiosks. Because of the nature of the rock, glue in bolts were used in the replacements at Crowder's. Not every bolt was replaced and there have been a lot of folks bolting at Crowder's over the years. Everyone should use good judgement when trusting any gear, fixed or otherwise. When in doubt, back it up or down climb.

Thanks to everyone in this discussion who expressed support for the CCC, we're just a bunch of volunteers trying to keep climbing areas open in the Carolinas and wouldn't be as successful as we have been if not for the incredible climbing community we have.
Thanks Brian for clearing that up. I was hoping that someone from the CCC would correct these clearly bullshit claims on the part of Joseph Vulpis/NEG. As someone who claims to guide in the Carolinas, he is doing a great disservice to himself and the climbing community by not working with the CCC. The CCC has clearly done great things for NC climbing and I would hope that any NC climber, especially one that wants to guide in the state, would show their support.


majid_sabet


May 2, 2012, 9:23 AM
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Re: [dynosore] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
Has there EVER been a toprope anchor failure due to webbing, when the anchor was proper