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NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:36 AM
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edge


May 1, 2012, 11:38 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.

Bullshit.

As you've now deleted your OP where you gave this advice I guess we can't call you out on that now.

It's still visible to mods and he deleted it to cover his ass.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:39 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community.


mojomonkey


May 1, 2012, 11:40 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

Your youtube account also includes this "post climbing day interview" with some kids with Northeast Mountain Guide Damon. I assume that is their anchor they are sitting next to, which includes blue webbing and a red cordolette. Do you also let your guides know that "Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." You must not hire guides carefully given that "Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing."

But this thread is pretty useless now since nobody is usefully discussing the merits of either. You've set it up to be all about you and your beliefs/credentials. At least it is out of the accident thread.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: [edge] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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edge I deleted my comments in that thread because it wasn't the place for them. It was disrespectful to argue about webbing and static in that thread as wonderwoman pointed out.


curt


May 1, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
My credibility speaks for itself.

Yep, I'm afraid so.

Curt


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 11:42 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Webbing and runners are designed and constructed differently. Research this on the internet and you'll see. There's plenty of videos showing how webbing is made and also how slings/runners are made.

I still cant grasp the fact that you 2 can't understand why static is better...It seriously amazes me and your lack of knowledge or even to go ahead and do your own research into this issue. Climbers spend all this money on gear and traveling to climb yet...they won't spend money on formal training. I don't understand it.


http://www.yatesgear.com/...ing/slings/index.htm
TOP ROPE ANCHORS

Made of 1" Heavy Duty 6000lb. Type 18 Mil-Spec. flat webbing with a 6" loop sewn at each end. Flat webbing is more resistant to abrasion cutting than 1" tubular webbing. Lengths: 4-8ft, Custom sizes available. Colors: Black, Blue, Red, Yellow, Orange. End to end Strength: 5500lbs(24.5kN)


obviously you know better than the people at yates who make quite a bit of climbing equipment ...

Wink


njrox


May 1, 2012, 11:43 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended.

Is there really much of a difference between nylon sling and nylon webbing? For example, I stated earlier in the thread that I use Sterling Webbing (which is made from nylon), http://www.sterlingrope.com/...116%22_Webbing_Spool


NEGuiding wrote:
You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

I'm sure you fine guide. But, you made a rather bold statement and you can bet that it's going to be challenged.

NEGuiding wrote:
Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

My climbing anchor pics suck. You want to see pics my house and my cars? I got them with my smarts. Cool


In all seriousness though, I'm sure you are a qualified and competent climber and guide. But youíve gone and completely discounted the use of webbing and thatís open for debate and even criticism.


(This post was edited by njrox on May 1, 2012, 11:50 AM)


chadnsc


May 1, 2012, 11:43 AM
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Re: [edge] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.

Bullshit.

As you've now deleted your OP where you gave this advice I guess we can't call you out on that now.

It's still visible to mods and he deleted it to cover his ass.

So am I remembering correctly or do I need to apologize? Seriously.


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 11:46 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents.

Honestly, I had never heard of an accident like the one that recently happened in the gunks and there still isn't proof that it was due to webbing failure. I hope that top rope anchors just falling apart are and will continue to be a rarity.

I would like to know about webbing failure incidents. This is all news to me. I haven't seen evidence of this yet.


curt


May 1, 2012, 11:48 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents.

If you don't back up your ridiculous assertions with some references pretty soon, we can all safely assume you are indeed full of shit.

Curt


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Re: [njrox] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Yes there is a difference between webbing and nylon slings.

I like being challenged, I'm a professional guide, it's my career, I own one of the largest guiding outfits in the Eastern US. This is what I do for a living.

Pics are hard to show what is exactly happening but I can show pics of cars too if you want haha! Because this thread is going nowhere.

Safety is my biggest concern and I educate climbers on a daily basis of innovative techniques. The most common are using static instead of webbing, tying that ridiculous and useless fishermans knot above your tie-in figure eight and people saying any helmet is good for climbing.


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Is this JOSEPH VULPIS who is posting, or another member of the NE Guiding staff? You should at least identify yourself and lend some credibility to you claims regarding certification and training.

I really hope that potential clients of NE Guiding will find this thread before they make the decision to pay you for your services. Besides being very poor debater, you have displayed a true lack of class on a thread dealing with a fatality. You have been completely unable to justify your initial assertion that using "webbing or spectra/dyneema slings" for top ropes is "unsafe" and has "no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." As a professional with "plenty of certifications" that has "taken MANY classes" you should be able to do this rather easily. That speaks volumes about your knowledge of a subject about which you profess to be an expert and your ability to educate others.

Let me put it another way; you are coming across as incredibly incompetent. Based on your posts in this thread, it seems to me that NE Guiding might not be the best place for individuals to pay for courses or professional guiding.


Gmburns2000


May 1, 2012, 11:52 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community.

I'm not sure this is what guides use static rope these days. I'm not a guide, but I know a few. The reason I know they use them is because static rope tends to be easier to set up and break down quickly, which is a common necessity for guides at single-pitch crags.


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:54 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Wonderwoman, I didn't say that's what happened in that accident. I clearly said that many times I was responding to others comment about it and I just pointed out a common issue. Whoever those other peole are were the ones who said it.


curt


May 1, 2012, 11:55 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
I would like to know about webbing failure incidents. This is all news to me. I haven't seen evidence of this yet.

You won't see evidence of this either--because it doesn't exist.

Curt


acorneau


May 1, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
edge wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
I said dyneema/spectra slings not nylon slings/runners.

Bullshit.

As you've now deleted your OP where you gave this advice I guess we can't call you out on that now.

It's still visible to mods and he deleted it to cover his ass.

So am I remembering correctly or do I need to apologize? Seriously.


I transfered all his quotes from the other thread to this one when I made my post (#9) here...

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2581659#2581659


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 11:58 AM
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Re: [curt] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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This is going nowhere, nice chatting with you and I wish you well.


mojomonkey


May 1, 2012, 11:59 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area. I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

What exactly are you trying to say by the bolded section above? It isn't that you can't go above 90 degrees or it is a death sentence, but it is dumb rigging. At 45 degrees, the load is roughly split between the two components. As the angle increases, so does the force on each piece. At 120 degrees each leg is taking the full load. Why would you want to do that, even if both pieces could handle that load? Decrease the angle and increase your margin of safety.

Do you find that keeping the angle under 90 degrees is that difficult or constraining that you regularly feel you need to open up your possibilities? Does this happen when you are guiding?


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 11:59 AM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, I didn't say that's what happened in that accident. I clearly said that many times I was responding to others comment about it and I just pointed out a common issue. Whoever those other peole are were the ones who said it.

Regardless, I still want to know of webbing related accidents.


boymeetsrock


May 1, 2012, 12:00 PM
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Re: [mojomonkey] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

Your youtube account also includes this "post climbing day interview" with some kids with Northeast Mountain Guide Damon. I assume that is their anchor they are sitting next to, which includes blue webbing and a red cordolette. Do you also let your guides know that "Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." You must not hire guides carefully given that "Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing."

But this thread is pretty useless now since nobody is usefully discussing the merits of either. You've set it up to be all about you and your beliefs/credentials. At least it is out of the accident thread.

And since NEG and his staff are such experts, I'm sure he took them to task for the power point not extending over the edge of the cliff and the two students sitting unsecured at the edge of the cliff.


jt512


May 1, 2012, 12:01 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area.

I have no problem with using angles greater than 90 degrees in an anchor, provided the effect of those angles on the gear is understood and taken into account in the construction of the anchor. What I have a problem with is someone, in one breath, claiming that a particular book is so authoritative that its mere omission of something is considered proof that that something is unsafe, while in the next breath ignoring an explicit prohibition in the same book.

In reply to:
I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

Between Curt's degree in materials engineering and his depth of trad climbing experience, he undoubtedly has a deeper understanding of how an anchor's angles affect its strength than the rest of us do combined.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 1, 2012, 12:50 PM)


curt


May 1, 2012, 12:01 PM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Wonderwoman, I didn't say that's what happened in that accident. I clearly said that many times I was responding to others comment about it and I just pointed out a common issue. Whoever those other peole are were the ones who said it.

Regardless, I still want to know of webbing related accidents.

Don't hold your breath.

Curt


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
This is going nowhere, nice chatting with you and I wish you well.

I would disagree. It did not go where you wanted it to go. However, this thread went a long way toward demonstrating that you are unable to back up the assertions that you make about anchors and that you appear to have a weak grasp of a subject about which you profess to be an expert.

edit for grammatical error


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on May 1, 2012, 12:06 PM)


acorneau


May 1, 2012, 12:04 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.


I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer.

Wink

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