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NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 3:24 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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John I'm glad the safety of other climbers is not a concern of yours by the information about bolts I just addressed to you. That makes me think very low of you because this is not a concern of yours. RC.com disabled our pwd wonderwoman, guess a moderator had an issue with something we said.


wonderwoman


May 1, 2012, 3:28 PM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
John I'm glad the safety of other climbers is not a concern of yours by the information about bolts I just addressed to you. That makes me think very low of you because this is not a concern of yours. RC.com disabled our pwd wonderwoman, guess a moderator had an issue with something we said.

I don't have the power to do that. And even if I did, I would not disable your password. Own up to your own actions. You are losing credibility, and I am banning your other account.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Re: [mojomonkey] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!
Holy fuck.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 3:58 PM
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Re: [boymeetsrock] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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boymeetsrock wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Yes, Watchung. And definitely nylong slings extended. I don't own webbing. I'll only pick up a few feet if I'm doing a multi-pitch route for rap anchor replacements. Look at my facebook pics, all public and you'll see more of that set up NJRox.

You doubt me as a professional? HAHA!

Here's 3 links and you tell me who's a professional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TffK8iGZI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlIIzWJ8eso&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI1ZyQqF5Kk&feature=plcp

Now what do you have showing your knowledge? I'd love to see it!

Your youtube account also includes this "post climbing day interview" with some kids with Northeast Mountain Guide Damon. I assume that is their anchor they are sitting next to, which includes blue webbing and a red cordolette. Do you also let your guides know that "Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever." You must not hire guides carefully given that "Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing."

But this thread is pretty useless now since nobody is usefully discussing the merits of either. You've set it up to be all about you and your beliefs/credentials. At least it is out of the accident thread.

And since NEG and his staff are such experts, I'm sure he took them to task for the power point not extending over the edge of the cliff and the two students sitting unsecured at the edge of the cliff.
Glad I'm not the only one that noticed that. Or how high the points are on the trunk of the tree.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 3:59 PM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
acorneau wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.


I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer.

Wink

That would be cruel.

On the participants? I agree.


bearbreeder


May 1, 2012, 4:01 PM
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Re: [carabiner96] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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webbing or a sling ... hmmm ... either way they suffer the same abrasion and cut issues as webbing ...

not to mention the strength "degrades" in a few hours according to a certain someone Wink


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 4:09 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:


webbing or a sling ... hmmm ... either way they suffer the same abrasion and cut issues as webbing ...

not to mention the strength "degrades" in a few hours according to a certain someone Wink
Those kids are as good as dead!


NEGuiding


May 1, 2012, 4:16 PM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Thanks for all the debate but this is going nowhere. Peace and much luck to you all!


kappydane


May 1, 2012, 4:22 PM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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As soon as I watched one of his youtube videos I knew this guy was a tool. He drops in a nut behind a flake and says "multi-directional" ??? But, I guess he climbs 5.12 trad (or so he says) so he must be right. He is the type of "guide" that gives climbing a bad name. He is always right about everything and there is no other way to do things. I'm sure if you go to his local crag he will spray you down when you climb his wired routes and tell you everything you are doing wrong. The pic with the webbing on the anchor shows how hypocritical this guy is.


Gmburns2000


May 1, 2012, 4:40 PM
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Re: [Joey7777] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Joey7777 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.

You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
SECC, SCC, who really cares. They obviously have some technical issues and should just stick to gaining access and not bolt replacing. Like I said, we've only been here a few months. Don't really have time to go around hunting down access orgs.

Speechless. You are guiding in an area but obviously have no respect for and are openly antagonistic towards the groups that make your profession possible.

We have A LOT of respect for the area and that is why we approached the park service to address this bolt issue. You should read sentences completely. We also are pushing for the NC state parks to require an insurance certificate from guiding outfits when they guide in the state parks. Something they don't do now.

I don't disagree with requiring guides to have insurance (carrying one is probably unnecessary as a simple registration process would keep guides up to date), but I have heard of this tactic before, and it's usually not presented as an option because the guide cares for the well-being of other guiding company clients or because it doesn't want the State to get sued. It's usually a tactic used to push out the competition.

Hey, plenty of worse tactics have been used in better industries, so good on you if that's a tactic you're using, but let's not sugarcoat it as if you're doing the world a favor here.
It pushes out illegal guiding outfits is what it does. The general publics safety is what real guiding outfits should care about like we do.

what's illegal? if the park doesn't require it, then how can it be illegal? if they are illegal, then how is having insurance going to change their already illegal status?

no, it's pushing out the small guys who don't want to be like you. nothing wrong with your business and nothing wrong with theirs, unless they really are illegal...and they're only illegal if you change the law on them. otherwise, they're already illegal.

you're not fooling anyone.


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 5:04 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Joey,

I started to craft a response to your statements about the CCC, but it's not worth it. Based on your posts here and the photos on your site of your company using the exact techniques and materials you railed against, I truly feel sorry for people who come to you for instruction.

For those that don't know, the CCC (the group that Joey is railing against) has a 17 year history of preserving, protecting and expanding climbing opportunities in NC. To characterize them as having "no concern about climbing safety" is just wrong. It pains me to see someone who has do so little for the NC community denigrate an organization that has done so much good.

I really hope that anyone who is considering working with Northeast Mountain Guiding will read this thread and understand that there are a lot better options out there.

edit for grammar and spelling, and because a mod asked me to remove some inflammatory phrases


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on May 1, 2012, 6:06 PM)


climbingaggie03


May 1, 2012, 5:46 PM
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Re: [mojomonkey] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area. I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

What exactly are you trying to say by the bolded section above? It isn't that you can't go above 90 degrees or it is a death sentence, but it is dumb rigging. At 45 degrees, the load is roughly split between the two components. As the angle increases, so does the force on each piece. At 120 degrees each leg is taking the full load. Why would you want to do that, even if both pieces could handle that load? Decrease the angle and increase your margin of safety.

Do you find that keeping the angle under 90 degrees is that difficult or constraining that you regularly feel you need to open up your possibilities? Does this happen when you are guiding?


I'm not sure if you're asking for personal knowledge, or as a rhetorical question, but I thought I'd answer it. Sometimes due to constraints of the site, you're presented with the choice of using a less than bomber anchor but keeping the angles under 90 or using a completely bomber anchor but having angles over 90. In that situation, I almost always prefer to have greater angles, but stronger anchors. It does increase forces some, but usually it's ultimately stronger.

I wouldn't say it happens often when I'm guiding, but I can think of sites I've been at that didn't have the best options so it helps to expand your options.


mojomonkey


May 1, 2012, 5:55 PM
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Re: [climbingaggie03] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
NEGuiding wrote:
Good point on the angles Jt. So you stay in that angle correct? Well that limits you to anchor building in that little angle. A common misconception. Let's say you have a 2 point anchor, 20 kN of force at your masterpoint (worst case scenario number, research it), going up 2 legs at that angle would split it to 10 kn on each anchor, yes. Now if you went out of that angle, which climbers say NOT to do. Why? What if each of those 2 points could hold MORE than 10 kN or even 20 kn for that matter then why can't you go to a higher angle? Do explain because MANY people have tested this theory and it has been proven wrong. It opens climbers anchor building up to a wider area. I'm sure Curt won't understand this because he's just an old recreational arguementative climber but I'm curius of your thoughts.

What exactly are you trying to say by the bolded section above? It isn't that you can't go above 90 degrees or it is a death sentence, but it is dumb rigging. At 45 degrees, the load is roughly split between the two components. As the angle increases, so does the force on each piece. At 120 degrees each leg is taking the full load. Why would you want to do that, even if both pieces could handle that load? Decrease the angle and increase your margin of safety.

Do you find that keeping the angle under 90 degrees is that difficult or constraining that you regularly feel you need to open up your possibilities? Does this happen when you are guiding?


I'm not sure if you're asking for personal knowledge, or as a rhetorical question, but I thought I'd answer it. Sometimes due to constraints of the site, you're presented with the choice of using a less than bomber anchor but keeping the angles under 90 or using a completely bomber anchor but having angles over 90. In that situation, I almost always prefer to have greater angles, but stronger anchors. It does increase forces some, but usually it's ultimately stronger.

I wouldn't say it happens often when I'm guiding, but I can think of sites I've been at that didn't have the best options so it helps to expand your options.

Thanks, but I was more asking what exactly Joe was getting at. He mentioned a few times that wide angles on the legs of an anchor are some sort of myth/misconception that needed to be dispelled. It sounded like he thought it wasn't something to strive for, or that it was frequently enough unachievable to merit dispelling. I realize there are always odd cases, but the way he was bringing it up, especially in a toprope anchoring thread, seemed... odd.


olderic


May 1, 2012, 6:52 PM
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This thread is amazing and even if he never participates in another I am sure NEG has achieved cult status. Not even Enigma could so completely unite all the usually fragmented factions of rc.com in one universal front to deliver a ginormous slap down. In well < 24 hours he has taken himself and his business down in flames...


jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 7:07 PM
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olderic wrote:
This thread is amazing and even if he never participates in another I am sure NEG has achieved cult status. Not even Enigma could so completely unite all the usually fragmented factions of rc.com in one universal front to deliver a ginormous slap down. In well < 24 hours he has taken himself and his business down in flames...

I would climb with Majid before Joey boy over there.. And i have nothing to argue with him in this thread.

/falls over Crazy


climbamt


May 1, 2012, 7:08 PM
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olderic wrote:
This thread is amazing and even if he never participates in another I am sure NEG has achieved cult status. Not even Enigma could so completely unite all the usually fragmented factions of rc.com in one universal front to deliver a ginormous slap down. In well < 24 hours he has taken himself and his business down in flames...

+1


Partner rgold


May 1, 2012, 7:10 PM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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As one of those experienced climbers who hasn't taken the requisite courses, I've stayed out of this one. Vulpis sounds very much like a resurrected Appie and I've already been there and done that.

His bio on the NE Mountain Guiding Site says (http://www.northeastmountainguiding.com/..._staff/joseph_vulpis)

"…currently training for his PCGI Multi-Pitch Guide certification. He…has also taken the PCGI Top-Rope Guide course."

(The emphasis is mine.)

Consulting the PCGI site's list of certified guides indicates that he is not certified as a top-rope guide, not certified as a single-pitch guide, not certified as a lead guide, and not certified as a multi-pitch guide. These are all the certifications that group offers, so he is not certified, period.
(http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/...content/view/78/134/)

As far as webbing vs. static rope, Moyer's tests indicate that one-inch tubular webbing is vastly inferior to static ropes if the rigging is subject to abrasion, either over an edge due to stretching or perpendicular to an edge due to rope motions. The reason is that only a few fibers of rope are abraded at any one time, but tubular and flat webbing basically expose all their fibers to abrasion simultaneously. If I was writing a guide's manual, something I am prevented from doing because of lack of appropriate courses, I'd recommend static rope for guided top-roping.

One-inch tubular webbing (whether sewn into a runner or not) is, however, fine for less intensively used top-rope set-ups for recreational climbers who understand the need for appropriate padding and stabilizing directionals if edges are involved. Those who are not confident in their ability to predict and deal with abrasion should stick to static ropes.

All this said, like everyone else who has commented, I am unaware of webbing top-rope anchors ever failing because of abrasion.

Vigilance is required for either webbing or rope that runs over an edge, even if the edge isn't especially sharp, since abrasion under tension can saw through either rope or webbing in an amazingly short time. Padding and/or supplementary anchors that will immobilize the rigging strands from horizontal motions across an edge are called for if the top-rope is not a straight up-and-down affair.

Probably the ideal set-up is a gear anchor on the cliff face backed up to a tree at the top with either webbing or static rope. The rigging from the tree acts as a back-up for the gear anchor, and the gear anchor prevents any rope motions and loads from contributing to tree rigging abrasion.

UV deterioration is an issue for ropes and slings and can be very noticeable on slings left in place, which should always be treated with caution. But UV deterioration during the course of a few years of top-roping on slings installed and removed each time by the party is not a serious concern.


curt


May 1, 2012, 7:19 PM
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rgold wrote:
As one of those experienced climbers who hasn't taken the requisite courses, I've stayed out of this one. Vulpis sounds very much like a resurrected Appie and I've already been there and done that.

His bio on the NE Mountain Guiding Site says (http://www.northeastmountainguiding.com/..._staff/joseph_vulpis)

"…currently training for his PCGI Multi-Pitch Guide certification. He…has also taken the PCGI Top-Rope Guide course."

(The emphasis is mine.)

Consulting the PCGI site's list of certified guides indicates that he is not certified as a top-rope guide, not certified as a single-pitch guide, not certified as a lead guide, and not certified as a multi-pitch guide. These are all the certifications that group offers, so he is not certified, period.
(http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/...content/view/78/134/)

He is, without a doubt however, certifiable. Cool

Curt


ncrockclimber


May 1, 2012, 7:58 PM
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From the PCGI website under "Additional Board Members"

In reply to:
Joseph Vulpis - Joseph is the owner and director of Northeast Mountain Guiding and resides in Huntersville, NC. He is a Wilderness EMT Advanced, Search & Rescue Technician (SAR-TECH II) and a High Angle Rescue Technician.

It is interesting to note that while other board members list their PCGI certification, Joseph does not list his.

Is the behavior and "competence" displayed by Joseph is indicative of the type of professionalism that is taught to PCGI guides? I would be interested in hearing about others experience with the PCGI.


jakedatc


May 1, 2012, 8:16 PM
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ncrockclimber wrote:
From the PCGI website under "Additional Board Members"

In reply to:
Joseph Vulpis - Joseph is the owner and director of Northeast Mountain Guiding and resides in Huntersville, NC. He is a Wilderness EMT Advanced, Search & Rescue Technician (SAR-TECH II) and a High Angle Rescue Technician.

It is interesting to note that while other board members list their PCGI certification, Joseph does not list his.

Is the behavior and "competence" displayed by Joseph is indicative of the type of professionalism that is taught to PCGI guides? I would be interested in hearing about others experience with the PCGI.

unlike spewing off on a forum, in real life you can't list certifications you haven't earned yet.


carabiner96


May 1, 2012, 8:17 PM
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ncrockclimber wrote:
From the PCGI website under "Additional Board Members"

In reply to:
Joseph Vulpis - Joseph is the owner and director of Northeast Mountain Guiding and resides in Huntersville, NC. He is a Wilderness EMT Advanced, Search & Rescue Technician (SAR-TECH II) and a High Angle Rescue Technician.

It is interesting to note that while other board members list their PCGI certification, Joseph does not list his.

Is the behavior and "competence" displayed by Joseph is indicative of the type of professionalism that is taught to PCGI guides? I would be interested in hearing about others experience with the PCGI.
I've heard of AMGA (of course) and PCIA, but never PCGI.


majid_sabet


May 1, 2012, 11:26 PM
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NEGuiding wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
So, NE, since you're still here... How about those tope rope webbing failures?

Sorry, I'm not an internet junky and don't possess a folder of accident links but if you look at the high angle rescue post above and read the results that should be enough info for you ;) My knowledge of climbing accidents is from rangers, witnesses, guides, friends, my own experiences, etc.


RC is like one of those dirty rivers in the amazon where you want to cross the water but you are not sure what is in it and unfortunately, you are in the middle of that river .











check out your legs to see if anything is left cause these guys are coming after you


meanandugly


May 2, 2012, 3:25 AM
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I have a serious issue and belong to a site called Hole Diggers Anonymous and the whole time reading this thread I thought I was on that site. F#*K!!! This is one deep one.


patto


May 2, 2012, 4:22 AM
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Wow. I was hoping there was going to be a some decent discussion on the use of webbing vs static rope. Clearly I was too optimistic on the quality of discussion on RC.com.

Webbing has issues with its knottability and durability. Static cord/rope is FAR FAR more durable. If cost and weight is a concern then 8mm cord compares well with 1" webbing and is much more durable and more easily knottable. If you make a habit of top roping then using 9mm rope simply makes sense.

I don't see any major issues with top ropes built on webbing. But its not ideal, if I fail to see why you would recommend webbing over rope. As I said earlier this is a practice peculiar to north america, it might be wise to assess your own biases rather that assume that the way your were talk is best practice.


(This post was edited by patto on May 2, 2012, 4:22 AM)

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