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shockabuku


May 2, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Re: [meanandugly] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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meanandugly wrote:
No one is saying that static is not the overall beefier choice, but there is nothing wrong with webbing. Saying you should always use webbing because of the added safety is like saying you should always travel in an armoured personal carrier instead of a car because you are more likely to survive a crash. If there were stats to back up the claim that webbing was anything less than safe, I am sure we would all use static all the time....I wonder how many people only use steel biners in their TR set-ups instead of those very unsafe aluminums?

Armored Personnel Carriers aren't really designed to protect you from accidents. Most cars these days are probably far safer.


meanandugly


May 2, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Thanks for your understanding.


shockabuku


May 2, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Re: [meanandugly] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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You betcha.Wink

After reading all that I felt I had to contribute something that I was qualified to comment about.


majid_sabet


May 2, 2012, 11:26 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
You betcha.Wink

After reading all that I felt I had to contribute something that I was qualified to comment about.

How do we know you are qualified ?

Do you have certification ?


sandstone


May 2, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
... Unfortunately this thread was blown way out of proportion for various reasons which some were mine by not making myself clear enough and getting angry at some of the posters in here who seem to enjoy picking things apart in an argumentative manner....

Even your "apology" is illogical and non factual.

The responses you received were very proportional, very appropriate for the level of BS you posted.

The end result is good though -- you have created a publicly searchable record of who and what you really are.


Partner cracklover


May 2, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Definitely will make myself clear and precise in the future.

I appreciate your willingness to clarify your previous statements.

Earlier, the two of us had the following exchange:


NEG: Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing. If you disagree then you need to seek out professional training.

Cracklover: The above is a massive overstatement, and a statement of your own personal opinion, that I'm sure would not be supported by the AMGA.

NEG: It is not an overstatement or my own "personal opinion" it is a professional statement that myself and many other guides work from. Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever. You obviously have never had any formal training from PCGI or the AMGA.


So could you please explain what professional body you represented when you stated that it was a "professional" rather than a "personal" opinion? If the answer is that there is no such body, and it truly was merely your own opinion, then perhaps you would care to explain why you chose to state unambiguously that the above was in fact the position of either the PCGI or the AMGA?

Because you seem to be clear that the PCGI does *not* hold this position. So unless I'm misunderstanding something, it seems that you knowingly tried to pass off your own opinion as though it were endorsed by a professional guiding body, knowing full well it was not the case.

Thanks for any clarification you can provide on this matter.

GO


shockabuku


May 2, 2012, 12:11 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
You betcha.Wink

After reading all that I felt I had to contribute something that I was qualified to comment about.

How do we know you are qualified ?

Do you have certification ?

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.Tongue


JimTitt


May 2, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
You betcha.Wink

After reading all that I felt I had to contribute something that I was qualified to comment about.

How do we know you are qualified ?

Do you have certification ?

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.Tongue

If you tell Majid IŽd have to kill you both


SeaMoser


May 2, 2012, 12:34 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Dear Mr.Moser,
Thank you for taking the time to email PCGI.

One of our BOD members, Mr. Joseph Vulpis just called me on my personal line and informed me of your email. I just logged in to the PCGI email account to read it. I just looked at the thread you linked. I see his comments about webbing. I do not see any comments where he suggests that he is speaking on behalf of the PCGI, or representing PCGI's opinions on webbing. PCGI certainly does not shun the use of webbing in its course work, manuals or otherwise.

That all being said, I don't think it is appropriate for PCGI to comment on Joesph's personal "opinions" expressed on webbing via any Internet forum. Internet forums are far from official and are in my opinion often a place of misunderstanding. In my humble opinion to formulate any real understanding of Josephs actual opinions and/or use of any climbing anchoring material, one would need to actually go climbing with him and see it and hear it first hand from him. As in my opinion, online forums are not a reliable source of information.

Joseph is in fact a PCGI board member. He is not a certified PCGI guide, or on any PCGI technical or educational development committee. Joseph does NOT run PCGI courses (he is not approved to do so) he simply markets and/or sells them for approved PCGI course providers on the east coast, such as Paul Curran from the Gunks and David Wolff from the New River. I can't speak to what Alan Jolley knows or does not know, but I'm 100% confident that Alan and Joseph are on good terms both professionally and personally.

Furthermore and perhaps most importantly, Joseph was brought on the PCGI board due to his experience and success as a newer guide service owner on the East Coast and for his strong belief in experiential and adult education. Our BOD members are not selected for technical guiding knowledge, as the BOD advises PCGI strictly on business concerns. Our technical and education committee members are chosen for educational and technical prowess and steer PCGI on a technical and education front. Again, Joseph is not part of that team.

I beleive that as a BOD member of PCGI, Joseph and any other BOD members for that matter, should take great care in making any public statements (even via online forums) especially with comments that could be easily misunderstood and/or misstated. After speaking with Joseph tonight, I am positive Mr.Vulpius will think harder about his public statements in the future, regardless if they are said directly on PCGI's behalf or not. I also agree with you that comments made by BOD members can shed certain degrees of light on any org, both positive and negative.

Thank you again for taking the time to email PCGI.

Sincerely,
Zeke Federman
PCGI Secretary of the Board


AND THEN A LITTLE LATER

Dear Mr.Moser,
I read more of the thread and see where Joseph makes claims to be a "PCGI course provider" and that PCGI does not allow students to use webbing. Those statements are completely false. We are shocked Joseph has made such statements and are dealing with him on a disaplianry level. Thanks again for your email.


Sincerely,
Zeke Federman
PCGI Secretary of the Board


patto


May 2, 2012, 12:36 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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EDIT: ^^^^Wow, now I feel bad for the guy. Poor guy is going to be sent to the naughty chair. Frown


shockabuku wrote:
meanandugly wrote:
No one is saying that static is not the overall beefier choice, but there is nothing wrong with webbing. Saying you should always use webbing because of the added safety is like saying you should always travel in an armoured personal carrier instead of a car because you are more likely to survive a crash.

Armored Personnel Carriers aren't really designed to protect you from accidents. Most cars these days are probably far safer.

I think this is one of the more important aspects of discussion to come out of this thread. I think it may be better to start the "Armored Personnel Carrier vs car safety debate" debate.

Personally in a high speed crash I'd prefer to be in a 5 star crash rated European car than an APC. Wink


(This post was edited by patto on May 2, 2012, 12:40 PM)


ncrockclimber


May 2, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: [SeaMoser] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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SeaMoser wrote:
Dear Mr.Moser,
Thank you for taking the time to email PCGI.

One of our BOD members, Mr. Joseph Vulpis just called me on my personal line and informed me of your email. I just logged in to the PCGI email account to read it. I just looked at the thread you linked. I see his comments about webbing. I do not see any comments where he suggests that he is speaking on behalf of the PCGI, or representing PCGI's opinions on webbing. PCGI certainly does not shun the use of webbing in its course work, manuals or otherwise.

That all being said, I don't think it is appropriate for PCGI to comment on Joesph's personal "opinions" expressed on webbing via any Internet forum. Internet forums are far from official and are in my opinion often a place of misunderstanding. In my humble opinion to formulate any real understanding of Josephs actual opinions and/or use of any climbing anchoring material, one would need to actually go climbing with him and see it and hear it first hand from him. As in my opinion, online forums are not a reliable source of information.

Joseph is in fact a PCGI board member. He is not a certified PCGI guide, or on any PCGI technical or educational development committee. Joseph does NOT run PCGI courses (he is not approved to do so) he simply markets and/or sells them for approved PCGI course providers on the east coast, such as Paul Curran from the Gunks and David Wolff from the New River. I can't speak to what Alan Jolley knows or does not know, but I'm 100% confident that Alan and Joseph are on good terms both professionally and personally.

Furthermore and perhaps most importantly, Joseph was brought on the PCGI board due to his experience and success as a newer guide service owner on the East Coast and for his strong belief in experiential and adult education. Our BOD members are not selected for technical guiding knowledge, as the BOD advises PCGI strictly on business concerns. Our technical and education committee members are chosen for educational and technical prowess and steer PCGI on a technical and education front. Again, Joseph is not part of that team.

I beleive that as a BOD member of PCGI, Joseph and any other BOD members for that matter, should take great care in making any public statements (even via online forums) especially with comments that could be easily misunderstood and/or misstated. After speaking with Joseph tonight, I am positive Mr.Vulpius will think harder about his public statements in the future, regardless if they are said directly on PCGI's behalf or not. I also agree with you that comments made by BOD members can shed certain degrees of light on any org, both positive and negative.

Thank you again for taking the time to email PCGI.

Sincerely,
Zeke Federman
PCGI Secretary of the Board


AND THEN A LITTLE LATER

Dear Mr.Moser,
I read more of the thread and see where Joseph makes claims to be a "PCGI course provider" and that PCGI does not allow students to use webbing. Those statements are completely false. We are shocked Joseph has made such statements and are dealing with him on a disaplianry level. Thanks again for your email.


Sincerely,
Zeke Federman
PCGI Secretary of the Board

Thanks for posting that!


billcoe_


May 2, 2012, 12:49 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
Curt, your thoughts are invalid here because all you like to do is argue on forums so move along. I recall mentioning something about soft southwest route ratings a few years ago on a forum and you flew off the handle. So you will be ignored.

That you chose to so easily dismiss someone clearly more experienced than 99 percent of the rest of the RC.com members and ignore his words of wisdom only speaks to your insecurity and lack of climbing intelligence. The best climbers I know all seek out any and all points of view, scraps of info and technical issues in a attempt to learn as much as possible. They continually examine what they are doing and watch what others do as well. The apology is fine if you are saying you were wrong on your earlier posts. I'm not sure that's what you are saying. I can understand why you would not use it "per your own company policy" at the area you frequent, due to rough, abrasive or sharp rock. But that wasn't your first 15 points.

For myself, I have over 10 years of guiding in and have performed multiple rescues. I try and stay fairly tuned in to current info and practices. The last 2 guides I ran into intimately, where in we had to stop and wait for them to clear each belay station (up to 20 min per) on Epinephrine in Red Rocks @ 3 years ago, we taught them about just using the rope to make a belay, and avoiding the use of a cordalette. I maintained to them that despite what current best practices suggested, the climbing rope was the best thing to use for a number of reasons. Not the least of which was increased strength and speed of set up. They had never seen that.

NEGuiding wrote:
Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.


Again, please put some links out there that give any empirical and scientific evidence of anything close to resembling this. I have literally burned through a full roll of 1" tubular webbing and have left that shit scattered all around the Pacific Northwest in the last 4 years, and it's almost time for me to get a new roll as I'm down to the end of the roll. If there is a shred of real evidence that using this material is unsafe in the slightest I want to know. Not your opinion, but tests.

Please share some factual links.


ncrockclimber


May 2, 2012, 1:06 PM
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Re: [NEGuiding] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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NEGuiding wrote:
So I'd like to apologize for some misunderstandings and misconstruing in this thread. My own opinion and personal preference to choose static line over webbing is from personal guiding and rescue experience in the crags where my company guides in and trains in. The rock type we have at hand is very abrasive so extending anchors with webbing is not the best and safest option. My professional opinion.

To clear a couple other things up, I market, host and sell PCGI courses for approved East coast providers/mentors and I do NOT directly teach these courses. PCGI does NOT frown upon webbing. I am a Board of Directors member for PCGI, hence I am part of the team on a busness level and NOT on a technical development or educational level. I am not a certified PCGI guide. The reasons why I don't use it nor do any of my guides is clearly stated above.

So again, I apologize for any misunderstandings on this issue and just stress to choose the right material for the right application when extending top rope anchors. That is my opinion and NOT the opinions of PCGI. Unfortunately this thread was blown way out of proportion for various reasons which some were mine by not making myself clear enough and getting angry at some of the posters in here who seem to enjoy picking things apart in an argumentative manner. Again, my mistake for not making myself clear.

I hope this is read over correctly and I made my point/opinion showing that it is NOT something PCGI supports.

Thanks,
Joey

Joey Vulpis of Northeast Mountain Guiding, I read through your post above. Notably missing is any reference to the claims you made regarding the CCC. Among other things, you stated that "They have no concern about climbing safety."

You seem under the impression that the "misunderstandings" on this thread are just centered around webbing vs static line. I do not believe that is the case. This is about, you, an industry professional, making obviously erroneous statements about materials and techniques. It is about you making claims that you cannot support, then deleting or editing posts to cast yourself in a better light. It is about you maligning other guide services and a volunteer organization with a substantial history of service to the NC climbing community. It is about you misrepresenting both your qualifications and the techniques taught by an organization where you are a board member. It is about you trying to turn a tragedy into an opportunity for you to grow your business.

With all that in mind, I find your apology to be much less than satisfactory.

I sincerely hope that the other members of the PCGI board and its executive leadership are reading this. As I said in an earlier post, I was not familiar with the PCGI before this thread. I think that it is completely appropriate to evaluate an organization based on the people it selects to sit on its board of directors. Based on the statements made by Joey Vulpis, I have a very negative impression of the PCGI and the "new fully trusted methods" that they teach.

edit for grammar and clarity.


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on May 2, 2012, 1:21 PM)


njrox


May 2, 2012, 1:07 PM
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Re: [SeaMoser] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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SeaMoser wrote:
Dear Mr.Moser,
Thank you for taking the time to email PCGI.

One of our BOD members, Mr. Joseph Vulpis just called me on my personal line and informed me of your email. I just logged in to the PCGI email account to read it. I just looked at the thread you linked. I see his comments about webbing. I do not see any comments where he suggests that he is speaking on behalf of the PCGI, or representing PCGI's opinions on webbing. PCGI certainly does not shun the use of webbing in its course work, manuals or otherwise.

That all being said, I don't think it is appropriate for PCGI to comment on Joesph's personal "opinions" expressed on webbing via any Internet forum. Internet forums are far from official and are in my opinion often a place of misunderstanding. In my humble opinion to formulate any real understanding of Josephs actual opinions and/or use of any climbing anchoring material, one would need to actually go climbing with him and see it and hear it first hand from him. As in my opinion, online forums are not a reliable source of information.

Joseph is in fact a PCGI board member. He is not a certified PCGI guide, or on any PCGI technical or educational development committee. Joseph does NOT run PCGI courses (he is not approved to do so) he simply markets and/or sells them for approved PCGI course providers on the east coast, such as Paul Curran from the Gunks and David Wolff from the New River. I can't speak to what Alan Jolley knows or does not know, but I'm 100% confident that Alan and Joseph are on good terms both professionally and personally.

Furthermore and perhaps most importantly, Joseph was brought on the PCGI board due to his experience and success as a newer guide service owner on the East Coast and for his strong belief in experiential and adult education. Our BOD members are not selected for technical guiding knowledge, as the BOD advises PCGI strictly on business concerns. Our technical and education committee members are chosen for educational and technical prowess and steer PCGI on a technical and education front. Again, Joseph is not part of that team.

I beleive that as a BOD member of PCGI, Joseph and any other BOD members for that matter, should take great care in making any public statements (even via online forums) especially with comments that could be easily misunderstood and/or misstated. After speaking with Joseph tonight, I am positive Mr.Vulpius will think harder about his public statements in the future, regardless if they are said directly on PCGI's behalf or not. I also agree with you that comments made by BOD members can shed certain degrees of light on any org, both positive and negative.

Thank you again for taking the time to email PCGI.

Sincerely,
Zeke Federman
PCGI Secretary of the Board


AND THEN A LITTLE LATER

Dear Mr.Moser,
I read more of the thread and see where Joseph makes claims to be a "PCGI course provider" and that PCGI does not allow students to use webbing. Those statements are completely false. We are shocked Joseph has made such statements and are dealing with him on a disaplianry level. Thanks again for your email.


Sincerely,
Zeke Federman
PCGI Secretary of the Board

WHOA!!! Craziness.

In other news, the price of webbing on REI and EMS went from .40 a foot to .95! Tongue


gunkiemike


May 2, 2012, 1:09 PM
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Re: [markc] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
dynosore wrote:
Has there EVER been a toprope anchor failure due to webbing, when the anchor was properly constructed? My definition of proper is at least two separate anchor points and two separate loops of tubular webbing. Didn't think so Tongue

in 2010 two climbers died when their well constructed TR anchor failed and that was not because of the webbing material but the splice that was in the webbing from newly purchased spool and the report was post in I&A

This is a tangent, but worth pointing out for climbers who may not be aware of splices in spools of webbing. There was another incident of spliced webbing separating at the Happy Hour Crag in 2000. A pdf of the report is here:

http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/...alysisHappyHour1.pdf

I don't recall the details of the accident you're referring to, Majid. I'd argue that if one element of the anchor failing causes a catastrophic failure, it's not well-constructed.

Ditto on that. User error, nothing less.


billcoe_


May 2, 2012, 1:16 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Here's something I learned from the same Jim Titt who posted right up thread. I've put in quite a few rap anchors on new routes, replace a few old ones too. I try and use Stainless steel, as high quality as possible. I usually do Fixe Stainless chain, but at the cliff below, I put in 20 rap stations on various multipitch routes we put up and only used the Stainless Fixe Sport Hangers like in the pics.

I started out with the rappel point bolts too far apart, as seen in this photo. The bolts were all 3/8" x 6-1/2" long stainless wedge anchors.

Not touching


Touching


@ 2009 I read a post by Jim Titt on RC.com where he pointed out that they had tested those Fixe sport hangers, and if the 2 pieces of metal are touching, there is significantly less wear. Somehow they theorized that if they don't touch, they oscillate and cause more wear. So we started moving them close enough together so that they touched, but as wide as otherwise possible. Naturally, there may be some kinds of rock with banding, fragility or cracking issues occur where you want the 2 rap points to be far, far apart. That was not the case at this cliff.

That was something new I learned. Thanks Jim!!


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on May 2, 2012, 1:17 PM)


majid_sabet


May 2, 2012, 1:20 PM
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Re: [wonderwoman] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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so after the suspect was convicted in the RC court, what was the outcome ?

Is webbing safe on TR or not ?

Does webbing has to be certified ?

Does TR rigger has to have AMGA ,PCGA...whatever qualification ?

Does TR has to be certified by board member ?


ChuQWallA


May 2, 2012, 3:03 PM
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Re: [cracklover] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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I'm still pretty new, and in the process of collecting anchor materials. I've had a top-rope anchors class, hired a guide, and been out with several groups where I participated in anchor building. I have been watching this thread closely for a number of reasons.

My question: when using static cord for an anchor what diameter do you use? I've been using 7mm nylon cord tied into an equalette for 2 and 3 bolt top-rope anchors. Should I be using something thicker?

For reference, PMI 7mm cord is rated at 10.7 KN, and with 2+ legs on the anchor it should easily be over 20KN.


curt


May 2, 2012, 3:25 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
so after the suspect was convicted in the RC court, what was the outcome ?

Is webbing safe on TR or not ?

Does webbing has to be certified ?

Does TR rigger has to have AMGA ,PCGA...whatever qualification ?

Does TR has to be certified by board member ?

Well, here's what I believe we have learned:

1) TR anchors can be safely set up using static rope or webbing, although static rope may be better in some cases.

2) A n00b guide is............still a n00b.

3) Joey may want to pick up Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends & Influence People."

4)

5)



Please feel free to add to the list. Cool

Curt


(This post was edited by curt on May 2, 2012, 3:41 PM)


majid_sabet


May 2, 2012, 3:27 PM
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Re: [ChuQWallA] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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ChuQWallA wrote:
I'm still pretty new, and in the process of collecting anchor materials. I've had a top-rope anchors class, hired a guide, and been out with several groups where I participated in anchor building. I have been watching this thread closely for a number of reasons.

My question: when using static cord for an anchor what diameter do you use? I've been using 7mm nylon cord tied into an equalette for 2 and 3 bolt top-rope anchors. Should I be using something thicker?

For reference, PMI 7mm cord is rated at 10.7 KN, and with 2+ legs on the anchor it should easily be over 20KN.

no you got an F so far on your math

A knot in the system takes 30% so 2 x 10kn =20-6=14 kn


meanandugly


May 2, 2012, 3:36 PM
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Re: [patto] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Anyone who drives to go top-roping with car and not an APC has no CLUE what they're doing. If you disagree then you need to seek out professional training. Tongue


jakedatc


May 2, 2012, 3:38 PM
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Re: [ChuQWallA] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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ChuQWallA wrote:
I'm still pretty new, and in the process of collecting anchor materials. I've had a top-rope anchors class, hired a guide, and been out with several groups where I participated in anchor building. I have been watching this thread closely for a number of reasons.

My question: when using static cord for an anchor what diameter do you use? I've been using 7mm nylon cord tied into an equalette for 2 and 3 bolt top-rope anchors. Should I be using something thicker?

For reference, PMI 7mm cord is rated at 10.7 KN, and with 2+ legs on the anchor it should easily be over 20KN.

It depends. too many variables to answer that.

Learn more, find more people with experience to help you.


ChuQWallA


May 2, 2012, 3:39 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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That's the reason I keep asking questions, even n00b questions. I didn't think about the knots when I did the math. To be fair, I did note 10.7, so you get a C. Proper math, but you plugged in the wrong numbers. I kid.

On a serious note, thanks for pointing that out. I was aware of knots reducing the strength of rope and cord, but completely left it out of my thought process.

That said, the John Long anchors book recommends 7mm cord for both the equalette and the quad. Would it be advisable to put knots at the carabiners that attach to the bolts, creating 4 or 5 independent strands? I usually use figure eights and clove hitches to equalize all of the legs, but might omit them if things equalized nicely without them.

I'm off to look for data on the strength reduction of cord and webbing caused by knots.


ChuQWallA


May 2, 2012, 3:45 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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Thanks! I agree, it's very difficult to answer questions like this online. It just seems like every new thing that I learn raises more questions. After reading that people use 11.5mm static in their anchors I began to questions my own.


jakedatc


May 2, 2012, 3:52 PM
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Re: [ChuQWallA] The webbing vs static rope tope rope set up debate [In reply to]
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ChuQWallA wrote:
Thanks! I agree, it's very difficult to answer questions like this online. It just seems like every new thing that I learn raises more questions. After reading that people use 11.5mm static in their anchors I began to questions my own.


10-11mm static is generally used when the anchor points are further back and it gets put over an edge. the beefier rope is more abrasion resistant.

there are thousands of anchor possibilities so you need to learn the theory behind stuff then know when to apply it. keep reading the books then get out and practice on flat ground.

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