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granite_grrl


May 16, 2012, 6:01 AM
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No babies please
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So there are so many threads on here about getting preggers, having kids, etc. So this is a little thread for those of us who don't HAVE kids, don't WANT kids and maybe don't even LIKE kids!

I personally have no interest in childern. I feel that I'm too selfish and they don't do that much for me anyway. I like to do what I want and when I want and kids are just going to get in the way of that. Me and my husband will have a nice little nest egg built up in a year or two and the plans are to head on the road for a while. Obviously kids are not part of that plan, and I feel no loss about not having them.

So how does a childless life treat you? Does your family still bug you about it? Do you feel like strangling someone whenever there's a crying child around? Does a thread like this feel a little taboo to you because of what society seems to expect from you?


wonderwoman


May 16, 2012, 6:45 AM
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Funny. I just turned 38 and it recently occurred to me that I have never had the slightest desire to become pregnant (much to my mother's dismay). It's not that I don't like kids.

I always pictured myself adopting an older child and I got exactly what I wanted when I met and married Josh, who already had a daughter. I met Dakotah when she was 5. She is now nearly 16 and at the 'You're not my real mom' stage. But I predicted that day, too, would come. She gives her biological mom hell, too, so I figure that I am in good company and that she will someday come back. I hope.

What bothers me is that people expect you to have your own baby. I explain that I do already have a kid, and am happy with my life. But I think some people feel that you are somehow 'incomplete' if you don't go through the whole pregnancy thing.

Sometimes I feel that people think you are missing out on something. But I look at all that I have in life and am so happy. I am really thrilled with my life and would not change a thing.


Kerry_NC


May 16, 2012, 7:46 AM
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Hmm..so I'm in both camps..

I do have a son, age 7...that I have shared custody of..why? because I am too selfish to be a f/t mom...possibly. I love my son, but I need me time and in hindsight was greatly pressured into having a child by both my family and my ex-spouse (note the ex). I personally never really felt like I wanted to have a child.

I hate the sound of a crying child. Have never been comfortable around children, my son is the only exception. After my ex and I went our separate ways and I was looking again..my one major qualification in a future SO...no children, no desire to have children.

Call my selfish..works for me. I like traveling, climbing, spontaneous trips.

Trust me you will never catching me posting about babies...PROMISE!


wonderwoman


May 16, 2012, 7:58 AM
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We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.


(This post was edited by wonderwoman on May 16, 2012, 8:07 AM)


SylviaSmile


May 16, 2012, 8:00 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting toh have children.

I don't know if that's actually true. I've heard of marriages where the wife wanted children but the husband didn't, and yeah, the word "selfish" was flung around a bit for those situations.


karmiclimber


May 16, 2012, 8:04 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
So there are so many threads on here about getting preggers, having kids, etc. So this is a little thread for those of us who don't HAVE kids, don't WANT kids and maybe don't even LIKE kids!

I personally have no interest in childern. I feel that I'm too selfish and they don't do that much for me anyway. I like to do what I want and when I want and kids are just going to get in the way of that. Me and my husband will have a nice little nest egg built up in a year or two and the plans are to head on the road for a while. Obviously kids are not part of that plan, and I feel no loss about not having them.

So how does a childless life treat you? Does your family still bug you about it? Do you feel like strangling someone whenever there's a crying child around? Does a thread like this feel a little taboo to you because of what society seems to expect from you?

No judgement here. In fact, I think its always better to realize you don't like/want kids and go with it, than to squeeze yourself into some box because of societal pressure. So, good for you...I think the world would be a much better place if more people thought like you do.
But I will say that I love love love my daughter and being a Mom is the best thing that ever happened to me. It is not for everyone though!


wonderwoman


May 16, 2012, 8:06 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting toh have children.

I don't know if that's actually true. I've heard of marriages where the wife wanted children but the husband didn't, and yeah, the word "selfish" was flung around a bit for those situations.

In a fight between couples? Sure. But society-wise? Probably not.

However, I do believe partners should be in sync with long-term family planning before settling down. That makes sense.


karmiclimber


May 16, 2012, 8:10 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting toh have children.

I don't know if that's actually true. I've heard of marriages where the wife wanted children but the husband didn't, and yeah, the word "selfish" was flung around a bit for those situations.

Uh, that should be what dating is all about...if one doesn't want kids, and the other does, then its probably not going to work out. Sometimes people get married and then one realizes, oh they really want kids all of the sudden (Or what I see sort of often is one doesn't want kids and the other PRETENDS to not want kids also...sad sad sad). It probably won't work out either. But sticking around and yelling "selfish!" randomly isn't going to make it work or make it better. Its so important to find someone who has the same views and wants WELL before marriage or big commitment.


SylviaSmile


May 16, 2012, 8:17 AM
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karmiclimber wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting toh have children.

I don't know if that's actually true. I've heard of marriages where the wife wanted children but the husband didn't, and yeah, the word "selfish" was flung around a bit for those situations.

Uh, that should be what dating is all about...if one doesn't want kids, and the other does, then its probably not going to work out. Sometimes people get married and then one realizes, oh they really want kids all of the sudden (Or what I see sort of often is one doesn't want kids and the other PRETENDS to not want kids also...sad sad sad). It probably won't work out either. But sticking around and yelling "selfish!" randomly isn't going to make it work or make it better. Its so important to find someone who has the same views and wants WELL before marriage or big commitment.

Yeah, I agree. It's a maturity thing . . . it's harder if you get married young, before you are even sure what path you want your life to take. But there is something natural about wanting kids. Getting married might awaken some people to that natural urge, whereas before they (like me) were content to have lots of fun without babies on the scene. I'm not married and don't want kids right now, but I'm okay with saying that it seems like the rule to want kids at some point in your life and the exception not to want them ever. I think that's part of the gist of the OP is getting at--you feel a bit of pressure to conform to the norm of most people. Smile


Kerry_NC


May 16, 2012, 8:18 AM
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That's what happened to me..my ex and I dated for 5 yrs, the entire time he said "no kids" which was perfect for me. 6 yrs into the marriage...the I want kids now started. There is no history of divorce in either of our families..so to 'conform and save the marriage', hindsight wrong decision. After we had our son, the pressure to have more was intense..I had to get out.

Best decision of my life. I am happy, my son is happy, my ex has a family with 5 kids now, and I have a great bf who shares my appetite for adventure and travel...and who brought me into climbing. :-)


granite_grrl


May 16, 2012, 8:24 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I did use the term selfish, but I don't think it's as negative as it's being made out to be here. It just means that I want to put myself and my husband first instead of having a child that I will also have to be concerned about.

I do think that if you do have a child they should be your main priority, which is another reason I don't want a child. In my mind good parents are the ones that put their childern first and I'm just don't want to have to do this.


karmiclimber


May 16, 2012, 8:25 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
karmiclimber wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting toh have children.

I don't know if that's actually true. I've heard of marriages where the wife wanted children but the husband didn't, and yeah, the word "selfish" was flung around a bit for those situations.

Uh, that should be what dating is all about...if one doesn't want kids, and the other does, then its probably not going to work out. Sometimes people get married and then one realizes, oh they really want kids all of the sudden (Or what I see sort of often is one doesn't want kids and the other PRETENDS to not want kids also...sad sad sad). It probably won't work out either. But sticking around and yelling "selfish!" randomly isn't going to make it work or make it better. Its so important to find someone who has the same views and wants WELL before marriage or big commitment.

Yeah, I agree. It's a maturity thing . . . it's harder if you get married young, before you are even sure what path you want your life to take. But there is something natural about wanting kids. Getting married might awaken some people to that natural urge, whereas before they (like me) were content to have lots of fun without babies on the scene. I'm not married and don't want kids right now, but I'm okay with saying that it seems like the rule to want kids at some point in your life and the exception not to want them ever. I think that's part of the gist of the OP is getting at--you feel a bit of pressure to conform to the norm of most people. Smile

I am pregnant and have lack of filter when I am pregnant, so if this comes off as rough, I am sorry...

That is why I don't think people should get married til they are older.
That said...I've made my own mistakes in life. But after you grow up and realize what you want, you cannot remain chained to someone who doesn't want what you want. Its not fair to either party.
As far as wanting kids being a natural thing...I disagree. In my mind, there is far more to sway you off of wanting kids than to want them. They are expensive, the biggest responsibility you will ever EVER have, and it doesn't ever go away...to many people take it too lightly, IMO. "Oh, I'll make a mini me and we can go shopping together and drink frappochinos." Its not like that. Anyway...my 2 cents.


wonderwoman


May 16, 2012, 8:28 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I did use the term selfish, but I don't think it's as negative as it's being made out to be here. It just means that I want to put myself and my husband first instead of having a child that I will also have to be concerned about.

I do think that if you do have a child they should be your main priority, which is another reason I don't want a child. In my mind good parents are the ones that put their childern first and I'm just don't want to have to do this.

Okay. You can be selfish. However, I am not selfish. I just don't want babies. Tongue


Partner macherry


May 16, 2012, 8:30 AM
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i have two kids. i love them dearly, but for the most part, i dont like kids or tolerate other people's kids.

my husband could have gone either way on the kid decision, but we did make the decision together about reproducing.

now that my kids are in their 20's, they both have told us that they have no interest in having kids. they will get no pressure from me for grand kids. i totally get their decision.


SylviaSmile


May 16, 2012, 8:33 AM
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Re: [karmiclimber] No babies please [In reply to]
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karmiclimber wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
karmiclimber wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting toh have children.

I don't know if that's actually true. I've heard of marriages where the wife wanted children but the husband didn't, and yeah, the word "selfish" was flung around a bit for those situations.

Uh, that should be what dating is all about...if one doesn't want kids, and the other does, then its probably not going to work out. Sometimes people get married and then one realizes, oh they really want kids all of the sudden (Or what I see sort of often is one doesn't want kids and the other PRETENDS to not want kids also...sad sad sad). It probably won't work out either. But sticking around and yelling "selfish!" randomly isn't going to make it work or make it better. Its so important to find someone who has the same views and wants WELL before marriage or big commitment.

Yeah, I agree. It's a maturity thing . . . it's harder if you get married young, before you are even sure what path you want your life to take. But there is something natural about wanting kids. Getting married might awaken some people to that natural urge, whereas before they (like me) were content to have lots of fun without babies on the scene. I'm not married and don't want kids right now, but I'm okay with saying that it seems like the rule to want kids at some point in your life and the exception not to want them ever. I think that's part of the gist of the OP is getting at--you feel a bit of pressure to conform to the norm of most people. Smile

I am pregnant and have lack of filter when I am pregnant, so if this comes off as rough, I am sorry...

That is why I don't think people should get married til they are older.
That said...I've made my own mistakes in life. But after you grow up and realize what you want, you cannot remain chained to someone who doesn't want what you want. Its not fair to either party.
As far as wanting kids being a natural thing...I disagree. In my mind, there is far more to sway you off of wanting kids than to want them. They are expensive, the biggest responsibility you will ever EVER have, and it doesn't ever go away...to many people take it too lightly, IMO. "Oh, I'll make a mini me and we can go shopping together and drink frappochinos." Its not like that. Anyway...my 2 cents.

Yeah, I hear ya. I'm not saying it makes logical SENSE to want kids, and that the more you think about it the more you'd want them . . . to the contrary. But I've seen friend after friend succumb to marriage+kids, a lot of people even on here seem to have kids, and the human race appears to continue on even as technology to hinder reproduction is increasingly available. As far as the mini-me with frappocinos thing--I think it's like with marriage, in that people still get married even after you see so many marriages fail. There's still hope that it can be a more ideal situation in your own case. I agree with you that it should not be taken lightly. On the other side of the equation, though, I do love to go home and drink coffee with my mom. Wink


wonderwoman


May 16, 2012, 8:35 AM
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macherry wrote:
they will get no pressure from me for grand kids. i totally get their decision.

To this day, my mother still requests that I get myself impregnated. Thank god for moms like you!


granite_grrl


May 16, 2012, 8:43 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
macherry wrote:
they will get no pressure from me for grand kids. i totally get their decision.

To this day, my mother still requests that I get myself impregnated. Thank god for moms like you!

My mom is pretty cool with my and the hubby, she seems to have accepted our decsion and has never pressured us.....my aunts on the other hand.....


granite_grrl


May 16, 2012, 8:51 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I did use the term selfish, but I don't think it's as negative as it's being made out to be here. It just means that I want to put myself and my husband first instead of having a child that I will also have to be concerned about.

I do think that if you do have a child they should be your main priority, which is another reason I don't want a child. In my mind good parents are the ones that put their childern first and I'm just don't want to have to do this.

Okay. You can be selfish. However, I am not selfish. I just don't want babies. Tongue

No, but you do take care of your husband's kid, who I assume you treat like your own daughter? You might not want babies, but you do have a kid to take care of.


wonderwoman


May 16, 2012, 8:57 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I did use the term selfish, but I don't think it's as negative as it's being made out to be here. It just means that I want to put myself and my husband first instead of having a child that I will also have to be concerned about.

I do think that if you do have a child they should be your main priority, which is another reason I don't want a child. In my mind good parents are the ones that put their childern first and I'm just don't want to have to do this.

Okay. You can be selfish. However, I am not selfish. I just don't want babies. Tongue

No, but you do take care of your husband's kid, who I assume you treat like your own daughter? You might not want babies, but you do have a kid to take care of.

Yes, she is my daughter. But no, I never wanted a 'baby'. I wanted a kid. And I wanted somebody else's uterus to do the work.

Still, my family members (and other people who feel like it's somehow their business to say so) seem to think that is not good enough. This perplexes me.


lena_chita
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May 16, 2012, 8:58 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
So there are so many threads on here about getting preggers, having kids, etc. So this is a little thread for those of us who don't HAVE kids, don't WANT kids and maybe don't even LIKE kids!

I personally have no interest in childern. I feel that I'm too selfish and they don't do that much for me anyway. I like to do what I want and when I want and kids are just going to get in the way of that. Me and my husband will have a nice little nest egg built up in a year or two and the plans are to head on the road for a while. Obviously kids are not part of that plan, and I feel no loss about not having them.

So how does a childless life treat you? Does your family still bug you about it? Do you feel like strangling someone whenever there's a crying child around? Does a thread like this feel a little taboo to you because of what society seems to expect from you?

The societal/family pressure to procreate is HUGE.

I honestly don't remember the time in my life when I didn't want kids. From the time I was a little girl, I knew that I would have a baby or two. But then again, I also knew that i would go to college, get married. etc. etc.

In retrospect, ALL of this was pretty much cultural conditioning, growing up in a place where this was pretty much the only way. The only people who didn't have kids were the ones who couldn't have kids, and that was very, very sad, and they were the ones who had to make do with adoption, but the assumption was that of course they still wanted kids, regardless of whether they could make them biologically, or not.

It is hard for me to say, in retrospect, whether I would have felt the same about having kids if I had grown up in America. Sometimes I think that if I had discovered climbing earlier in my life, I might have opted not to have kids. It's a moot point now, because I have them, I love them, and I can't imagine not having them. I fought hard to have them living with me during divorce, and I got what i wanted and what I believe is the best for them. They are wonderful kids.

But in the past two years a lot of my friends have been having babies. And it REALLY drove home the fact that I absolutely don't want any babies anymore. No, thank you!

I love to hold those babies for a few minutes, I think they are adorable, and then I am very much relieved to pass the squealing package back to the parent who has to deal with poop, pee, drool, spit-up, and all the other normal bodily functions, and who has to wake up at night, and juggle that baby on one arm while attempting to eat, have adult conversation, or read a book.

Don't get me started on toddlers. Babies I love. other people's toddlers & tantruming pre-schoolers I can barely tolerate. I really think it is the worst age. Old enough to be mobile, vocal and demanding, not old enough to negotiate, compromise or be considerate to others.

Every time I see one, I thank the Universe for my now-older, smart, mature and delightful kids. I really enjoy having older kids. And I am really looking forward to them getting even older.


wonderwoman


May 16, 2012, 12:49 PM
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I had almost forgotten (purposely?) a statement from my mother:

"I hope you that you get pregnant so that you stop climbing."


granite_grrl


May 16, 2012, 5:17 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
I had almost forgotten (purposely?) a statement from my mother:

"I hope you that you get pregnant so that you stop climbing."

BwaHAHAHA!

Laugh


clee03m


May 16, 2012, 8:03 PM
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Really? You haven't heard people say, "When are you going to find a nice girl and settle down?" And when they say settle down, they mean with kids.

I find professionally the pressure is opposite. Since men don't have to take an extended paternity leave, they can have as many kids as they want, but god forbid a woman has too many kids....


lena_chita
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May 17, 2012, 8:34 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
I had almost forgotten (purposely?) a statement from my mother:

"I hope you that you get pregnant so that you stop climbing."


LOL, the statement from my parents usually goes along the lines of: Come on, you HAVE kids, you are a mother, when are you going to start acting mature and stop all that climbing nonsense?


Partner macherry


May 17, 2012, 11:25 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
I had almost forgotten (purposely?) a statement from my mother:

"I hope you that you get pregnant so that you stop climbing."


LOL, the statement from my parents usually goes along the lines of: Come on, you HAVE kids, you are a mother, when are you going to start acting mature and stop all that climbing nonsense?

oh gawd, even in my 40's i got that line from my mom!!

my favorite line though, is from one of my main climbing partners. mike once said to me, "i like climbing with you. you take no crazy risks, and i know you always want to come home in one piece........you're a mom!"


guangzhou


May 17, 2012, 7:03 PM
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I am a man and when people ask me why I have no children, I explain that I am to selfish. I spend all my free time doing what I want, when I want, where I want. Children would slow this down.

I find nothing wrong with being selfish.

E


olderic


May 17, 2012, 7:06 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
I am a man and when people ask me why I have no children, I explain that I am to selfish.
E

redundant


guangzhou


May 17, 2012, 11:31 PM
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Nice. I've always known I was selfish, I didn't realize it was all men.

Living in Asia, I often get asked about how many children I have. Here in Indonesia, people can't imagine a husband and wife not wanting children, or even waiting to have children.

My wife and I say we're waiting so we can enjoy our time together and travel more. The people who ask are amazed that we put traveling and climbing ahead of being a three child family.

Only recently have I even considered having children actually.


iamthewallress


May 23, 2012, 7:18 AM
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I think that having kids is usually selfish (unless you're doing it for your spouse or parents and don't want it yourself), but actually raising them requires the selflessness to put the kids needs first when appropriate. Either way, I don't care for them enough to want to make my own, and I think the planet is down with me not adding to its burden in this particular way.

My MIL was talking about how awesome it was to take vacation as a retired grandma when there were no kids around to take to the potty or get a snack every few minutes...you just get to do what you want. I laughed and said that one need not wait until retirement to indulge in this pleasure....ask me how I know. Since I'm sure she'd be thrilled with a couple more grand kids to take to the potty, she instantly started back tracking. LOL.

My husband and i have been lucky to both be the youngest in our families whose sibs have already provided some grandkids. We've never gotten any real pressure.


Khoi


May 25, 2012, 10:10 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I'm a guy who doesn't want kids. I've faced more than a few accusations of being selfish.


drivel


May 29, 2012, 9:33 AM
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Khoi wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I'm a guy who doesn't want kids. I've faced more than a few accusations of being selfish.

from girlfriends or from random people?


Khoi


May 31, 2012, 10:59 PM
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drivel wrote:
Khoi wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I'm a guy who doesn't want kids. I've faced more than a few accusations of being selfish.

from girlfriends or from random people?

Never from any girlfriends. I am upfront about my desire to remain child-free early on. It's been from relatives, family friends, and a few random people.


granite_grrl


Jun 1, 2012, 6:14 AM
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Khoi wrote:
drivel wrote:
Khoi wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I'm a guy who doesn't want kids. I've faced more than a few accusations of being selfish.

from girlfriends or from random people?

Never from any girlfriends. I am upfront about my desire to remain child-free early on. It's been from relatives, family friends, and a few random people.

I feel as a married woman I have had a lot more pressure from aquantences and the guys on the floor I've worked with about having babies than my husband has. Ironically most of this pressure has been from guys (though that might be more a function that there are very few women anywhere that I've worked).

I feel that there's more expectation that the woman will want, and should want to have babies.


SylviaSmile


Jun 1, 2012, 7:55 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
Khoi wrote:
drivel wrote:
Khoi wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I'm a guy who doesn't want kids. I've faced more than a few accusations of being selfish.

from girlfriends or from random people?

Never from any girlfriends. I am upfront about my desire to remain child-free early on. It's been from relatives, family friends, and a few random people.

I feel as a married woman I have had a lot more pressure from aquantences and the guys on the floor I've worked with about having babies than my husband has. Ironically most of this pressure has been from guys (though that might be more a function that there are very few women anywhere that I've worked).

I feel that there's more expectation that the woman will want, and should want to have babies.
Just noticing the wording of your post, I wonder if maybe women feel it as "pressure" more than guys do. In other words, maybe all the teasing/razzing/accusations of being selfish roll off a guy's back more easily? I've never been in the situation myself, so I don't know how it would feel or work firsthand.


josephfazioli


Jun 4, 2012, 11:10 AM
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My mother nags me constantly about having kids, but not so much my wife, Katie. She thinks it's my responsibility to start a family (whether Katie wants to or not) and it's a little bit creepy. The pressure I get about having kids comes mainly from family, and it's terrible.

I'm young, immature, self-centered, essentially transient, and poor. Yeah, my kids would have a great childhood. Lol.

I hate that "society" puts pressure on women to procreate. Not only is it a personal decision, but it seems like a huge conspiracy to reduce career potential. That's not to say that children will prevent a career, but statistically, mom's earn less. WTF is that about?

While I'm ranting.... I had a job interviewer ask if I had, or was planning on having kids in the near future. I said "no" and he said "good." Harsh. I didn't take the job. Regardless of whether or not I want kids, a stance in one way or the other is off-putting. Whatever decision you want to make, I'm all for it.

Kudos to youdos.

Joe


granite_grrl


Jun 4, 2012, 11:19 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
Khoi wrote:
drivel wrote:
Khoi wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
We are not selfish when we don't want to have children. We just don't want children. You would never hear a man being accused of being selfish for not wanting to have children.

I'm a guy who doesn't want kids. I've faced more than a few accusations of being selfish.

from girlfriends or from random people?

Never from any girlfriends. I am upfront about my desire to remain child-free early on. It's been from relatives, family friends, and a few random people.

I feel as a married woman I have had a lot more pressure from aquantences and the guys on the floor I've worked with about having babies than my husband has. Ironically most of this pressure has been from guys (though that might be more a function that there are very few women anywhere that I've worked).

I feel that there's more expectation that the woman will want, and should want to have babies.
Just noticing the wording of your post, I wonder if maybe women feel it as "pressure" more than guys do. In other words, maybe all the teasing/razzing/accusations of being selfish roll off a guy's back more easily? I've never been in the situation myself, so I don't know how it would feel or work firsthand.

I would be will to accept this, hopefully some fellows following this thread will be able to let us know how many people have approched them and sugested they have kids (and I'm not just talking family here, mom will probably nag both son and daughter just as much, I'm talking about people who I work with and truthfully barely know).


madaloon


Jul 8, 2012, 4:16 PM
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I never played house or with baby dolls when I was a kid. I was happier parachuting my Barbies off the roof and tearing around on my Big Wheel and then bike. Then I hit puberty and got talked to about my babymaking potential. I knew that I never wanted to have anything growing in me.

Many have told me that this is a phase, that I will feel my clock start ticking and have an overwhelming desire to breed. My mom is the most vocally disappointed. Relationships have ended or hardly started because the guys realized that I was serious about my no baby policy.

I wouldn't say that I'm selfish, I just have no desire to raise a human. I'd happily raise a cat or two and could be talked into a dog.


wonderwoman


Aug 17, 2012, 11:44 AM
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Just found this and had to share:



potreroed


Aug 19, 2012, 11:02 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
Just found this and had to share:
[image]
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391544_459484617418009_1502268531_n.jpg[/image]

Someday, when you are a lot older, and you realize that your lineage ends with you, you might regret this decision.


granite_grrl


Aug 19, 2012, 7:36 PM
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potreroed wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
Just found this and had to share:
[image]
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391544_459484617418009_1502268531_n.jpg[/image]

Someday, when you are a lot older, and you realize that your lineage ends with you, you might regret this decision.
I don't understand this line of thinking.


lena_chita
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Aug 20, 2012, 8:52 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
potreroed wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
Just found this and had to share:
[image]
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391544_459484617418009_1502268531_n.jpg[/image]

Someday, when you are a lot older, and you realize that your lineage ends with you, you might regret this decision.
I don't understand this line of thinking.

Me neither.

But I have heard the sentiment before. For example, my father had commented at one point that he was sad that after my generation there would be no one else carrying his family's last name, since my male cousin had only a girl child, who presumably would marry and take on her husband's name, and my children also have a different last name.


wonderwoman


Aug 20, 2012, 9:43 AM
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potreroed wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
Just found this and had to share:
[image]
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391544_459484617418009_1502268531_n.jpg[/image]

Someday, when you are a lot older, and you realize that your lineage ends with you, you might regret this decision.

That's my risk to take. And exactly how young do you happen to think I am? Your comment has a paternalism written all over it.


potreroed


Aug 20, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Recommended reading: The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I would never ask a woman her age.


(This post was edited by potreroed on Aug 20, 2012, 11:25 AM)


lena_chita
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Aug 20, 2012, 12:26 PM
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potreroed wrote:
Recommended reading: The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I would never ask a woman her age.

Whose age? Marion Zimmer Bradley's. who died in died in 1999, or Morgaine's?

And having read Mists of Avalon, I still fail to see a connection...


wonderwoman


Aug 20, 2012, 12:33 PM
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potreroed wrote:
Recommended reading: The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I would never ask a woman her age.

You are assuming that I am childbearing age or a young woman, and giving me advice about my personal life according to that assumption. That's pretty paternalistic. PS - I am not a young woman.

I have not read Mist of Avalon. But I can see that it is a piece of fiction.


potreroed


Aug 20, 2012, 2:31 PM
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I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.


clee03m


Aug 20, 2012, 3:48 PM
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potreroed wrote:
I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.
And you think this is a good reason to bring a child into this world?


dr_feelgood


Aug 20, 2012, 5:45 PM
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clee03m wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.
And you think this is a good reason to bring a child into this world?
Seems about as selfish as it gets...

"When I am a derelict old fart, I am going to regret not burdening myself and the world with another human who I could have guilted or shamed into taking care of my decrepit ass, both physically and financially, as I did not make the decision that seemed emotionally sound and rational to me at the time."


chadnsc


Aug 21, 2012, 6:45 AM
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potreroed wrote:
I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.

At that age I might regret not trying a lot of things. It doesn't mean I shouldn't have done them.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 21, 2012, 5:10 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote:
clee03m wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.
And you think this is a good reason to bring a child into this world?
Seems about as selfish as it gets...

"When I am a derelict old fart, I am going to regret not burdening myself and the world with another human who I could have guilted or shamed into taking care of my decrepit ass, both physically and financially, as I did not make the decision that seemed emotionally sound and rational to me at the time."

Shit. I knew I had kids for all the wrong reasons. I did it so I could play with little kids without being creepy. Now if you will excuse me, I need to go, these ponies aren't going to play themselves.


saint_john


Aug 22, 2012, 12:11 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
So there are so many threads on here about getting preggers, having kids, etc. So this is a little thread for those of us who don't HAVE kids, don't WANT kids and maybe don't even LIKE kids!

I personally have no interest in childern. I feel that I'm too selfish and they don't do that much for me anyway. I like to do what I want and when I want and kids are just going to get in the way of that. Me and my husband will have a nice little nest egg built up in a year or two and the plans are to head on the road for a while. Obviously kids are not part of that plan, and I feel no loss about not having them.

So how does a childless life treat you? Does your family still bug you about it? Do you feel like strangling someone whenever there's a crying child around? Does a thread like this feel a little taboo to you because of what society seems to expect from you?

I feel that the lifestyle that my partner (soon to be fiance) and I enjoy would be ruined by having a child. We are absurdly busy with work, social obligations, and hobbies like climbing and cycling.

We're both in our mid thirties and have never felt the "need" to have children.

Neither one of us buy into the "need to pass down our family name/legacy" B.S.


wonderwoman


Aug 28, 2012, 10:25 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.

At that age I might regret not trying a lot of things. It doesn't mean I shouldn't have done them.

Climbing K2 or floating the Grand Canyon in an inner tube; there are some things one would rather have done than do.

- Edward Abbey


notapplicable


Sep 5, 2012, 7:32 PM
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clee03m wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.
And you think this is a good reason to bring a child into this world?

I will never have children but I've encountered many similar arguments in favor of doing so. For me, it's something of a moral issue. Sure, I could have a kid on a whim or as some sort of personal experiment or hedge against hypothetical future regrets but what if I was right and it turns out I REALLY did not want one? What then?

Creating and governing a human life is not something to be taken so lightly.


SylviaSmile


Sep 8, 2012, 10:04 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
clee03m wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I am not giving advice. I'm just commenting that when you reach an advanced age you might regret never having had children.
And you think this is a good reason to bring a child into this world?

I will never have children but I've encountered many similar arguments in favor of doing so. For me, it's something of a moral issue. Sure, I could have a kid on a whim or as some sort of personal experiment or hedge against hypothetical future regrets but what if I was right and it turns out I REALLY did not want one? What then?

Creating and governing a human life is not something to be taken so lightly.

I get that and I'm definitely not one of the people going around trying to convince people who say they don't want kids that they secretly really do. You really don't and that's fine. But at the same time, I think maybe one of the reasons it becomes an issue is that if everyone didn't have kids, our race would die out! So clearly some people need to be having kids. Those who are holding babies right now are quite literally holding the future in their hands, which isn't necessarily an argument in favor of having children, but it's at least interesting to ponder.


SylviaSmile


Sep 8, 2012, 10:12 PM
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Actually, come to think of it, if you're getting harassed about not having kids, you should take it as a compliment: people like you so much they want a mini version of you to multiply the awesomeness! Smile


guangzhou


Sep 9, 2012, 12:20 AM
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In reply to:
I get that and I'm definitely not one of the people going around trying to convince people who say they don't want kids that they secretly really do. You really don't and that's fine. But at the same time, I think maybe one of the reasons it becomes an issue is that if everyone didn't have kids, our race would die out! So clearly some people need to be having kids. Those who are holding babies right now are quite literally holding the future in their hands, which isn't necessarily an argument in favor of having children, but it's at least interesting to ponder.

The dying out of our race? Actually, I could use the world population as a good argument for a few less people having kids today.

My mother has an easy time understanding that grand children from me would most likely not happen.

My mother in-law wanted my wife to be pregnant before the honeymoon was even over.


gene


Oct 11, 2012, 11:15 AM
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For a novel that's entertaining but also a bit of psychological study of like-minded thinking, try :

We Need To Talk About Kevin, by Lionel Schriver

Great book .... was recently made into a pretty good movie, but not widely released, not nearly as good as the book, and kind of hard to follow if you hadn't read the book before watching the movie


SylviaSmile


Oct 16, 2012, 4:34 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
In reply to:
I get that and I'm definitely not one of the people going around trying to convince people who say they don't want kids that they secretly really do. You really don't and that's fine. But at the same time, I think maybe one of the reasons it becomes an issue is that if everyone didn't have kids, our race would die out! So clearly some people need to be having kids. Those who are holding babies right now are quite literally holding the future in their hands, which isn't necessarily an argument in favor of having children, but it's at least interesting to ponder.

The dying out of our race? Actually, I could use the world population as a good argument for a few less people having kids today.

My mother has an easy time understanding that grand children from me would most likely not happen.

My mother in-law wanted my wife to be pregnant before the honeymoon was even over.

My only point was that not EVERYONE can abstain from having kids, or it will create a problem.


Kartessa


Oct 24, 2012, 12:03 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
In reply to:
I get that and I'm definitely not one of the people going around trying to convince people who say they don't want kids that they secretly really do. You really don't and that's fine. But at the same time, I think maybe one of the reasons it becomes an issue is that if everyone didn't have kids, our race would die out! So clearly some people need to be having kids. Those who are holding babies right now are quite literally holding the future in their hands, which isn't necessarily an argument in favor of having children, but it's at least interesting to ponder.

The dying out of our race? Actually, I could use the world population as a good argument for a few less people having kids today.

My mother has an easy time understanding that grand children from me would most likely not happen.

My mother in-law wanted my wife to be pregnant before the honeymoon was even over.

My only point was that not EVERYONE can abstain from having kids, or it will create a problem.

Well how about just certain countries stop having babies so that there's enough room for all the other countries with a 9.8 children per family birth rate for overflow?


wonderwoman


Oct 24, 2012, 3:23 PM
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Kartessa wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
In reply to:
I get that and I'm definitely not one of the people going around trying to convince people who say they don't want kids that they secretly really do. You really don't and that's fine. But at the same time, I think maybe one of the reasons it becomes an issue is that if everyone didn't have kids, our race would die out! So clearly some people need to be having kids. Those who are holding babies right now are quite literally holding the future in their hands, which isn't necessarily an argument in favor of having children, but it's at least interesting to ponder.

The dying out of our race? Actually, I could use the world population as a good argument for a few less people having kids today.

My mother has an easy time understanding that grand children from me would most likely not happen.

My mother in-law wanted my wife to be pregnant before the honeymoon was even over.

My only point was that not EVERYONE can abstain from having kids, or it will create a problem.

Well how about just certain countries stop having babies so that there's enough room for all the other countries with a 9.8 children per family birth rate for overflow?

I seriously hope you are joking. Women gain more income / independence / education when they control their own reproductive decisions & bodies. Not having access to birth control or limiting access to abortions results in higher birth rates. Enforcing limits on birth rates result in back alley abortions, throwing newly born infants into the garbage (especially when they are female) & forcing women to have abortions.

Also, if the population in another country suddenly decreased, you wouldn't catch me grabbing my family & heading out of the states. If Romney is elected, on the other hand....


clumsy


Oct 25, 2012, 7:21 PM
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One thing to consider that the child birth rate is linked to the child mortality rate. In developed countries families can get away with having 1-2 children and have a reasonable expectation that they will live to see the old age.


Kartessa


Oct 27, 2012, 6:03 PM
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clumsy wrote:
One thing to consider that the child birth rate is linked to the child mortality rate. In developed countries families can get away with having 1-2 children and have a reasonable expectation that they will live to see the old age.

You can speak for yourself on that one. My only child has a life expectancy in the 20s and any future kids risk the same so the whole "more or no more kids" isnt exactly a choice for me.

So don't play the martyr when people take an interest in your having offspring. It's natural, part of living within a community to ask about how your life is going and any future plans.


clumsy


Oct 27, 2012, 7:40 PM
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kartessa wrote:
You can speak for yourself on that one. My only child has a life expectancy in the 20s and any future kids risk the same so the whole "more or no more kids" isnt exactly a choice for me.
I wonder where did this number come from?

Frankly, I don't care if someone decides to have or not have children. My comment was in regards to
wonderwoman wrote:
Not having access to birth control or limiting access to abortions results in higher birth rates.
and related to various studies eq http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1670537

I made my choice to have kids and very happy that I did.


wonderwoman


Oct 29, 2012, 6:45 AM
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I am sorry for the situation you are in, Kartessa. It isn't fair. There aren't words to accurately describe how unfair it is, at all. Hang in there.


climbon6786


Dec 16, 2012, 4:14 PM
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I'm 27 and have never been interested in children. They are gross and so needy. I want to spend my life climbing and traveling, not changing diapers and sacrificing my career. I think my boyfriend wants kids though, and I'm going to be very clear with him if our relationship should flourish. No children ever. And if you're going to marry me, you need to be prepared to never have kids.


Partner macherry


Dec 17, 2012, 10:02 AM
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yeah and they grow into gross and needy adults.


Syd


Dec 18, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Hope you girls don't mind a mere male's opinion, but I'm a very late starter as a father and I can assure you that my 2 yr old son is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me. I've climbed, canyoned, wind surfed in the surf, sailed Hobies, flown hang gliders, mountain biked etc etc but nothing compares with the utter joy of a baby. Don't miss out.

My wife and I still climb every week.

Monique Forestier is a great example of what climbing mums can do http://www.moniqueclimbs.com.au/


granite_grrl


Dec 18, 2012, 1:04 PM
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Syd wrote:
Hope you girls don't mind a mere male's opinion, but I'm a very late starter as a father and I can assure you that my 2 yr old son is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me. I've climbed, canyoned, wind surfed in the surf, sailed Hobies, flown hang gliders, mountain biked etc etc but nothing compares with the utter joy of a baby. Don't miss out.

My wife and I still climb every week.

Monique Forestier is a great example of what climbing mums can do http://www.moniqueclimbs.com.au/


Start your own thread!!!

You can call it "Yes babies, please!"

Laugh

I'm just kidding, but this is a mild example of what often happen out in the real world.

Me (in a conversation about child rearing) - "I'm not going to have childern, I don't even like them all that much."
Them - "Oh, but childern are great!" Usually followed with (where Syd thankfully didn't go) "You might not like kids right now, but they're different when they're your own."

How do you think people would feel if I went around and told them how they should never have had kids because my life without them is wonderful. I'd be hung up by my toes!


Partner macherry


Dec 19, 2012, 7:41 AM
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Syd wrote:
Hope you girls don't mind a mere male's opinion, but I'm a very late starter as a father and I can assure you that my 2 yr old son is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me. I've climbed, canyoned, wind surfed in the surf, sailed Hobies, flown hang gliders, mountain biked etc etc but nothing compares with the utter joy of a baby. Don't miss out.

My wife and I still climb every week.

Monique Forestier is a great example of what climbing mums can do http://www.moniqueclimbs.com.au/


what compares..........when they finally move out of the house!!!!

heh


no really i love my kids.

its a very personal decision, and your idea of utter joy may not be someone else's idea of joy. my daughter is 21 and she has made the decision not to have kids.gawd, if she had a dollar for ever time someone said, "you're young you will change your mind or how can you possible know now." enjoy your child, but know it's not everyone's cup of tea


wonderwoman


Dec 19, 2012, 8:55 AM
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Syd wrote:
Hope you girls don't mind a mere male's opinion, but I'm a very late starter as a father and I can assure you that my 2 yr old son is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me. I've climbed, canyoned, wind surfed in the surf, sailed Hobies, flown hang gliders, mountain biked etc etc but nothing compares with the utter joy of a baby. Don't miss out.

My wife and I still climb every week.

Monique Forestier is a great example of what climbing mums can do http://www.moniqueclimbs.com.au/

Congrats to you. But don't wish babies on people who don't want babies.


Kartessa


Dec 22, 2012, 7:20 AM
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The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

My favourites are the ones who bitch about kids at the gym, the crag... Or even the 20 year old ass holes who think a public park is just for them to play on the swings while tripping on acid.

Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.


Partner macherry


Dec 22, 2012, 9:28 AM
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Kartessa wrote:
The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

My favourites are the ones who bitch about kids at the gym, the crag... Or even the 20 year old ass holes who think a public park is just for them to play on the swings while tripping on acid.

Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.

i judge and chastise other people's kids all the time.........and i have kids. love mine, but hate others!!


clee03m


Dec 22, 2012, 11:43 PM
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I don't quite get why people feel the need to tell women they need to have kids. Sure, having kids is awesome (the best experience of my life), but why do they care if someone else does it? I think rock climbing is awesome, but I don't try to convince everyone they should become a rock climber. Or I love friction climbing, but I don't try to convince every climber they should love it. Imagine if I went around saying things like, "you say you don't have any desire to climb pure friction climbs, but you will feel differently when you experience the thrill of high stepping unto a blank wall 20 feet above your last bolt!"

Oh, and yeah, I hate kids. Except mine, only because they are, like, the most awesome human beings that I had the honor of meeting, hello.


notapplicable


Dec 26, 2012, 2:29 PM
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Kartessa wrote:
The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

I think people should have children if they want but I'm very much prone to getting in my childless friends faces about making a well informed decision on the matter. People need to spend a lot of time in the houses of people with multiple children. They need to try and incorporate them in to their daily and weekend routines. They need to know firsthand how dramatic the difference between the two lifestyles can be.

Why do I say that? Because too many of my friends had children without REALLY considering the implications and now regret the decision. Thats not fair to the child, the parents or the other people in their lives who have do deal with the aftermath.

In reply to:
Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.

I'm with ya here. Just took my friends 5 & 7 year old kids to the climbing gym for the first time over xmas. They loved it and and I was able to tolerate it. I am way more indulgent of children than I am their adult counterparts.


SylviaSmile


Jan 6, 2013, 7:09 PM
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Kartessa wrote:
The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

My favourites are the ones who bitch about kids at the gym, the crag... Or even the 20 year old ass holes who think a public park is just for them to play on the swings while tripping on acid.

Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.

Well said! I try to smile at kids, especially little kids, because it is a large, frightening world to them when you think about it.


guangzhou


Jan 7, 2013, 3:38 AM
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When I smile at kids a couple of things happen.

The kids run away crying, mostly in fear I think.

Sometime the parents pull their kids away and look at me like they are about to call the cops.

With this in mind, I remind myself to be careful when smiling at kids these days. As a middle school teacher especially.


SylviaSmile


Jan 9, 2013, 2:53 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
In reply to:
I get that and I'm definitely not one of the people going around trying to convince people who say they don't want kids that they secretly really do. You really don't and that's fine. But at the same time, I think maybe one of the reasons it becomes an issue is that if everyone didn't have kids, our race would die out! So clearly some people need to be having kids. Those who are holding babies right now are quite literally holding the future in their hands, which isn't necessarily an argument in favor of having children, but it's at least interesting to ponder.

The dying out of our race? Actually, I could use the world population as a good argument for a few less people having kids today.

My mother has an easy time understanding that grand children from me would most likely not happen.

My mother in-law wanted my wife to be pregnant before the honeymoon was even over.

So maybe the dying out of our race is not so farfetched after all . . .


drivel


Jan 10, 2013, 7:26 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
Syd wrote:
Hope you girls don't mind a mere male's opinion, but I'm a very late starter as a father and I can assure you that my 2 yr old son is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me. I've climbed, canyoned, wind surfed in the surf, sailed Hobies, flown hang gliders, mountain biked etc etc but nothing compares with the utter joy of a baby. Don't miss out.

My wife and I still climb every week.

Monique Forestier is a great example of what climbing mums can do http://www.moniqueclimbs.com.au/


Start your own thread!!!

You can call it "Yes babies, please!"

Laugh

I'm just kidding, but this is a mild example of what often happen out in the real world.

Me (in a conversation about child rearing) - "I'm not going to have childern, I don't even like them all that much."
Them - "Oh, but childern are great!" Usually followed with (where Syd thankfully didn't go) "You might not like kids right now, but they're different when they're your own."

How do you think people would feel if I went around and told them how they should never have had kids because my life without them is wonderful. I'd be hung up by my toes!

ALL the stars.

Me, starting age... 11? 14? "I don't ever want kids."

Everyone ever: "you'll change your mind when you're older."


27 now. Have never wavered.


drivel


Jan 10, 2013, 7:27 PM
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wonderwoman wrote:
Syd wrote:
Hope you girls don't mind a mere male's opinion, but I'm a very late starter as a father and I can assure you that my 2 yr old son is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me. I've climbed, canyoned, wind surfed in the surf, sailed Hobies, flown hang gliders, mountain biked etc etc but nothing compares with the utter joy of a baby. Don't miss out.

My wife and I still climb every week.

Monique Forestier is a great example of what climbing mums can do http://www.moniqueclimbs.com.au/

Congrats to you. But don't wish babies on people who don't want babies.


'cuz that is bad for the babiez. duh.


drivel


Jan 10, 2013, 7:28 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

I think people should have children if they want but I'm very much prone to getting in my childless friends faces about making a well informed decision on the matter. People need to spend a lot of time in the houses of people with multiple children. They need to try and incorporate them in to their daily and weekend routines. They need to know firsthand how dramatic the difference between the two lifestyles can be.

Why do I say that? Because too many of my friends had children without REALLY considering the implications and now regret the decision. Thats not fair to the child, the parents or the other people in their lives who have do deal with the aftermath.

In reply to:
Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.

I'm with ya here. Just took my friends 5 & 7 year old kids to the climbing gym for the first time over xmas. They loved it and and I was able to tolerate it. I am way more indulgent of children than I am their adult counterparts.

glad I was GU'd on that one.


drivel


Jan 10, 2013, 7:29 PM
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Kartessa wrote:
The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

My favourites are the ones who bitch about kids at the gym, the crag... Or even the 20 year old ass holes who think a public park is just for them to play on the swings while tripping on acid.

Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.

the prob with that isn't the children. It's shitty parents. I will put up with infinitely more screaming and dirt throwing from a child if the parents seem to be *trying.* It's when they give zero fucks that I want to murder the little shits.


Partner macherry


Jan 10, 2013, 7:54 PM
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drivel wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

My favourites are the ones who bitch about kids at the gym, the crag... Or even the 20 year old ass holes who think a public park is just for them to play on the swings while tripping on acid.

Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.

the prob with that isn't the children. It's shitty parents. I will put up with infinitely more screaming and dirt throwing from a child if the parents seem to be *trying.* It's when they give zero fucks that I want to murder the little shits.

yup


notapplicable


Jan 14, 2013, 8:19 PM
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drivel wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
The real bummer with the "no kids please" crowd is how much they judge and chastise those who do have kids and include them in their lives and passions.

My favourites are the ones who bitch about kids at the gym, the crag... Or even the 20 year old ass holes who think a public park is just for them to play on the swings while tripping on acid.

Nothing wrong with choosing motto have your own kids, but at least temporarily cherish or offer kindness to other children. Don't help them become jaded assholes like the rest of us.

the prob with that isn't the children. It's shitty parents. I will put up with infinitely more screaming and dirt throwing from a child if the parents seem to be *trying.* It's when they give zero fucks that I want to murder the little shits.

We were at First Buttress on a rainy day some months back. A couple roll up with their kid in tow. He leads a route, kid and lady flails on the start. Repeat for route two. Then the two adults straight dip out, leaving their 7-8 year old kid behind. They don't say a damn thing before doing so. They do seem to know two of the other climbers there but were not climbing together and they did not take ownership of the boy while his parents were gone. Kid proceeds to pester us for attention, plays with out gear and is generally in our shit.

They come back 10 min. later with big smiles on their faces. They either fucked or got high or both. Either way, NOT COOL BRO!!


SylviaSmile


Jan 14, 2013, 8:55 PM
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lol it takes a village . . .


notapplicable


Jan 14, 2013, 9:33 PM
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I ain't yo babies daddy


Syd


Jan 15, 2013, 11:45 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
... He leads a route, kid and lady flails on the start.
Reminds me of a well know climbing identity who takes his 10 yr old daughter climbing. He tries her to a tree, while he proceeds to trad self belay solo. He gets to the top, yells out to daughter to untie herself and start climbing. She gets a third of the way up and can't remove a stubborn piece of gear. She bursts out crying. All attempts at pacification fail.

A similar thing happened with a friend (now deceased, climbing accident), who attempted to climb a major multi pitch peak with his young daughter. Climbing became difficult, so he tried her in to the cliff and continued on free solo. Fortunately his demise did not take place on that trip and he returned to recover her.


chadnsc


Jan 15, 2013, 1:07 PM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
lol it takes a village . . .

Yeah but you really want ME watching your kids? Crazy


dr_feelgood


Jan 15, 2013, 6:47 PM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
lol it takes a village . . .
why is the villge then held responsible when the parents abdicate?


guangzhou


Jan 16, 2013, 7:27 PM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
lol it takes a village . . .

Just an excuse for bad parenting actually. In schools, teachers can say it takes a village because the entire school is there for the purpose of educating kids. Within a family, we can say a village because it's family.

In the general world, it's B.S. If you decide to have children, take the time to raise them properly. Keep their needs in mind and others people privacy too.

Personally, I like other people's kids. When I am in public, I have no issue letting kids or their parents know the children are not behaving appropriately.

I was attending a "Chinese Style" wedding once when kids were running around, jumping, and screaming around the various guest at the formal dinner. I looked at the parent a couple times, but they didn't get the message. Looking around at other guest, it was obvious I was not the only one annoyed. Actually, only the parents didn't seem to mind.

I finally jumped up, turn to the kids and parents and yelled "enough." parents scrambles to gather their kids and seat them at the table and kids were behave for the next hour and a half of dull speeches. (Even got some thumbs ups from other guests.

My mother in law, who is very self conscious and worries to much about what other think, was very uncomfortable.

You want a village to raise your kids into, move to a commute that supports that atmosphere.


Syd


Jan 16, 2013, 7:39 PM
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guangzhou wrote:

In the general world, it's B.S. If you decide to have children, take the time to raise them properly. Keep their needs in mind and others people privacy too.
The behaviour of ratbags with dogs is far worse than that of parents with kids. Dogs illegally off leash; in National Parks; on beaches; in our local climbing gym; and pretty much wherever there is a "Dogs Prohibited" sign, such as at our local swimming pool this morning.


carabiner96


Jan 16, 2013, 8:35 PM
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Syd wrote:
guangzhou wrote:

In the general world, it's B.S. If you decide to have children, take the time to raise them properly. Keep their needs in mind and others people privacy too.
The behaviour of ratbags with dogs is far worse than that of parents with kids. Dogs illegally off leash; in National Parks; on beaches; in our local climbing gym; and pretty much wherever there is a "Dogs Prohibited" sign, such as at our local swimming pool this morning.
Wat? Dis Iz Nat teh HOA meeting.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jan 18, 2013, 3:02 AM
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drivel wrote:
the prob with that isn't the children. It's shitty parents. I will put up with infinitely more screaming and dirt throwing from a child if the parents seem to be *trying.* It's when they give zero fucks that I want to murder the little shits.

So I possessed a trick that we called “The Evil Death Stare” or EDS for short. The EDS consists of a look that conveys a threat of physical violence combined with outright distain. One of the great things about our monkey brain is that the human emotions are universal. A smile is a smile, a frown is a frown, and the EDS can be understood by all people, even those of a very young age.

Now the best trick with the EDS is to be able to turn it on and turn it off quickly. It became a game where I, or my wife, would shoot the EDS at a kid in front of us at Target (why always Target? I dunno, just almost always there). The kid would visibly wilt and always move to be closer to their parent. As well they should, when someone looks at a kid with a look of real malice and intent, the monkey brain makes the child go to safety. As soon as the child moved towards the parent, the EDS was lifted and my wife and I would go back to a normal conversation. We found that a well timed EDS will shut up a misbehaving child with a near perfect batting average. Meaning, it usually took only one EDS and the kid would shut up and start behaving better. The human equivalent of The Dog Whisperer’s “tschh”.

Yes, I just more than condoned threatening a child. I recommended it. But the EDS is a silent and well placed threat. One that gets children who are behaving badly in public to change their behavior.

Now, this isn’t quite a story that ends with a Grinch like “his heart grew that day” ending, but it is close.

My wife and I practice what we call “high touch parenting”. There are lots aspects of our parenting style, very few of which are accidental. One of them is that we have always treated our kids with respect. Even when they were at the “terrible twos” stage, we never yelled or threatened or spanked. We treated them with the same respect as we would have wanted to be treated, albeit one where the parent is still the responsible party and the child is still a child.

We have never punished our children, only talked with them. Sometimes at the end of a one of our parenting conversations my wife and I will turn to each other and say “do you think they got it that time” to which the other person will inevitably reply “oh yeah, this time they understood”. It takes a great deal of effort and energy to only be on the positive side. It is much easier to threaten or to put the child in a “time out”, but we fundamentally believe that the only lesson that is learned from punishment is that the parent has more power. By talking and listening to our children we demonstrate on a fundamental level the behaviors we expect them to have.

Not that I pass up too many occasions to say so, but my kids behavior is, for the most part, fantastic. People consistently praise how respectful they are, not just to strangers and adults, but to each other. There is no sibling rivalry, only support between family members. We let our kids do odd things like wander around a restaurant, but they don’t cause any disturbances. They are just curious what the rest of the place looks like, so we let them. They come back and politely “report” what they have seen.

Now, I did say we never punished. But we do occasionally point out to the children that they are getting a bit squirmy and that if a stroll doesn’t help them sit still then maybe something like push-ups or sit-ups or jumping jacks are in order. Yes, my kids do jumping jacks in Target if they aren’t listening. But this is a rare occasion, except for each night before bed when energy fills the children and some form of exercise becomes inevitable.

While I could go on about “high touch parenting”, my story is about the time when my wife didn’t. She didn’t break our guidelines in that she struck the kids, it was about the time she didn’t stop them when they acted in the way that children do, but they shouldn’t.

It was about 4 years ago, Ann had learned that her mother had an incurable but exceedingly rare disease. So rare, that only 10 people a year in the US ever have the disease. Her mom has been slowly dying ever since then. Her father had, less than 6 months before, also been given a death sentence in that he had a lung issue that would slowly rob him of his vitality. Now, mind you, both of them are still alive today, and have had the best and longest dying period. But at the time, we didn’t know if we would even have a chance to see them alive again.

It was on that day, when Ann’s heart was so burdened with concerns that, while at Target, she just ignored the kids. They were “those kids”, our great and fantastic kids who rarely put a foot wrong, were tare assing around ‘nam looking for the shit. And that is when Ann saw a well dressed man recoil with horror at our kids. Now clearly this young gentleman didn’t know the secrets of the EDS. He only knew bad behavior when he saw it. And, did he see it that day.

When Ann made it back home and collapsed into my arms, she told me how while she was there, she didn’t have the energy nor the will to stop the kids. She just couldn’t. Her heart was too heavy with concerns for her mother and she just looked at the kids in a fog. She could only sit there and quietly in her head wish that her children would behave better. She didn’t have the energy or the will to move faster out of Target only to plod hopelessly out. She would have felt ashamed, but a life sucking sadness was all she could feel.

And the Grinch aspect of this was that I was forced to acknowledge that by commission or omission other parents make this same choice. They choose at any given time not to be that parent that smiles at their kid and gets their kid to behave by showing them love. But sometimes, people have other things in their life that prevents them from making, what I feel, is the right choice. And when I see strangers, again in the Target, and their kids are acting up, I don’t know what else is happening in the parent’s life. I don’t know if they have financial issues or someone is dying or, like a coworker of mine now, has their in-laws trapped in Syria. All I see is the snapshot now: badly behaving kids. There may be a thousand things wrong with their life and some of them make it impossible to, for my convenience, make their kids shut the fuck up.

So now, I just smile. I know my kids are safe, my kids are happy, and those kids are not my kids. My life is blessed and I don’t know why those other parents are choosing at that time not to enjoy being with their children. It may not be a choice they can make at this time. And for me, that is OK. I still try to shoot an occasional EDS, but the power is weakened. Mostly I just smile. I’ve found that, while not as effective as the EDS in getting a kid to act right, a smile goes a long way. It makes me feel better about the situation, and really, that is all I can really change.


chadnsc


Jan 26, 2013, 5:14 PM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
drivel wrote:
the prob with that isn't the children. It's shitty parents. I will put up with infinitely more screaming and dirt throwing from a child if the parents seem to be *trying.* It's when they give zero fucks that I want to murder the little shits.

So I possessed a trick that we called “The Evil Death Stare” or EDS for short. The EDS consists of a look that conveys a threat of physical violence combined with outright distain. One of the great things about our monkey brain is that the human emotions are universal. A smile is a smile, a frown is a frown, and the EDS can be understood by all people, even those of a very young age.

Now the best trick with the EDS is to be able to turn it on and turn it off quickly. It became a game where I, or my wife, would shoot the EDS at a kid in front of us at Target (why always Target? I dunno, just almost always there). The kid would visibly wilt and always move to be closer to their parent. As well they should, when someone looks at a kid with a look of real malice and intent, the monkey brain makes the child go to safety. As soon as the child moved towards the parent, the EDS was lifted and my wife and I would go back to a normal conversation. We found that a well timed EDS will shut up a misbehaving child with a near perfect batting average. Meaning, it usually took only one EDS and the kid would shut up and start behaving better. The human equivalent of The Dog Whisperer’s “tschh”.

Yes, I just more than condoned threatening a child. I recommended it. But the EDS is a silent and well placed threat. One that gets children who are behaving badly in public to change their behavior.

Now, this isn’t quite a story that ends with a Grinch like “his heart grew that day” ending, but it is close.

My wife and I practice what we call “high touch parenting”. There are lots aspects of our parenting style, very few of which are accidental. One of them is that we have always treated our kids with respect. Even when they were at the “terrible twos” stage, we never yelled or threatened or spanked. We treated them with the same respect as we would have wanted to be treated, albeit one where the parent is still the responsible party and the child is still a child.

We have never punished our children, only talked with them. Sometimes at the end of a one of our parenting conversations my wife and I will turn to each other and say “do you think they got it that time” to which the other person will inevitably reply “oh yeah, this time they understood”. It takes a great deal of effort and energy to only be on the positive side. It is much easier to threaten or to put the child in a “time out”, but we fundamentally believe that the only lesson that is learned from punishment is that the parent has more power. By talking and listening to our children we demonstrate on a fundamental level the behaviors we expect them to have.

Not that I pass up too many occasions to say so, but my kids behavior is, for the most part, fantastic. People consistently praise how respectful they are, not just to strangers and adults, but to each other. There is no sibling rivalry, only support between family members. We let our kids do odd things like wander around a restaurant, but they don’t cause any disturbances. They are just curious what the rest of the place looks like, so we let them. They come back and politely “report” what they have seen.

Now, I did say we never punished. But we do occasionally point out to the children that they are getting a bit squirmy and that if a stroll doesn’t help them sit still then maybe something like push-ups or sit-ups or jumping jacks are in order. Yes, my kids do jumping jacks in Target if they aren’t listening. But this is a rare occasion, except for each night before bed when energy fills the children and some form of exercise becomes inevitable.

While I could go on about “high touch parenting”, my story is about the time when my wife didn’t. She didn’t break our guidelines in that she struck the kids, it was about the time she didn’t stop them when they acted in the way that children do, but they shouldn’t.

It was about 4 years ago, Ann had learned that her mother had an incurable but exceedingly rare disease. So rare, that only 10 people a year in the US ever have the disease. Her mom has been slowly dying ever since then. Her father had, less than 6 months before, also been given a death sentence in that he had a lung issue that would slowly rob him of his vitality. Now, mind you, both of them are still alive today, and have had the best and longest dying period. But at the time, we didn’t know if we would even have a chance to see them alive again.

It was on that day, when Ann’s heart was so burdened with concerns that, while at Target, she just ignored the kids. They were “those kids”, our great and fantastic kids who rarely put a foot wrong, were tare assing around ‘nam looking for the shit. And that is when Ann saw a well dressed man recoil with horror at our kids. Now clearly this young gentleman didn’t know the secrets of the EDS. He only knew bad behavior when he saw it. And, did he see it that day.

When Ann made it back home and collapsed into my arms, she told me how while she was there, she didn’t have the energy nor the will to stop the kids. She just couldn’t. Her heart was too heavy with concerns for her mother and she just looked at the kids in a fog. She could only sit there and quietly in her head wish that her children would behave better. She didn’t have the energy or the will to move faster out of Target only to plod hopelessly out. She would have felt ashamed, but a life sucking sadness was all she could feel.

And the Grinch aspect of this was that I was forced to acknowledge that by commission or omission other parents make this same choice. They choose at any given time not to be that parent that smiles at their kid and gets their kid to behave by showing them love. But sometimes, people have other things in their life that prevents them from making, what I feel, is the right choice. And when I see strangers, again in the Target, and their kids are acting up, I don’t know what else is happening in the parent’s life. I don’t know if they have financial issues or someone is dying or, like a coworker of mine now, has their in-laws trapped in Syria. All I see is the snapshot now: badly behaving kids. There may be a thousand things wrong with their life and some of them make it impossible to, for my convenience, make their kids shut the fuck up.

So now, I just smile. I know my kids are safe, my kids are happy, and those kids are not my kids. My life is blessed and I don’t know why those other parents are choosing at that time not to enjoy being with their children. It may not be a choice they can make at this time. And for me, that is OK. I still try to shoot an occasional EDS, but the power is weakened. Mostly I just smile. I’ve found that, while not as effective as the EDS in getting a kid to act right, a smile goes a long way. It makes me feel better about the situation, and really, that is all I can really change.

So you shoot other people's kids the 'EDS' but not your kids?


SylviaSmile


Jan 28, 2013, 9:01 PM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
drivel wrote:
the prob with that isn't the children. It's shitty parents. I will put up with infinitely more screaming and dirt throwing from a child if the parents seem to be *trying.* It's when they give zero fucks that I want to murder the little shits.

So I possessed a trick that we called “The Evil Death Stare” or EDS for short. The EDS consists of a look that conveys a threat of physical violence combined with outright distain. One of the great things about our monkey brain is that the human emotions are universal. A smile is a smile, a frown is a frown, and the EDS can be understood by all people, even those of a very young age.

Now the best trick with the EDS is to be able to turn it on and turn it off quickly. It became a game where I, or my wife, would shoot the EDS at a kid in front of us at Target (why always Target? I dunno, just almost always there). The kid would visibly wilt and always move to be closer to their parent. As well they should, when someone looks at a kid with a look of real malice and intent, the monkey brain makes the child go to safety. As soon as the child moved towards the parent, the EDS was lifted and my wife and I would go back to a normal conversation. We found that a well timed EDS will shut up a misbehaving child with a near perfect batting average. Meaning, it usually took only one EDS and the kid would shut up and start behaving better. The human equivalent of The Dog Whisperer’s “tschh”.

Yes, I just more than condoned threatening a child. I recommended it. But the EDS is a silent and well placed threat. One that gets children who are behaving badly in public to change their behavior.

Now, this isn’t quite a story that ends with a Grinch like “his heart grew that day” ending, but it is close.

My wife and I practice what we call “high touch parenting”. There are lots aspects of our parenting style, very few of which are accidental. One of them is that we have always treated our kids with respect. Even when they were at the “terrible twos” stage, we never yelled or threatened or spanked. We treated them with the same respect as we would have wanted to be treated, albeit one where the parent is still the responsible party and the child is still a child.

We have never punished our children, only talked with them. Sometimes at the end of a one of our parenting conversations my wife and I will turn to each other and say “do you think they got it that time” to which the other person will inevitably reply “oh yeah, this time they understood”. It takes a great deal of effort and energy to only be on the positive side. It is much easier to threaten or to put the child in a “time out”, but we fundamentally believe that the only lesson that is learned from punishment is that the parent has more power. By talking and listening to our children we demonstrate on a fundamental level the behaviors we expect them to have.

Not that I pass up too many occasions to say so, but my kids behavior is, for the most part, fantastic. People consistently praise how respectful they are, not just to strangers and adults, but to each other. There is no sibling rivalry, only support between family members. We let our kids do odd things like wander around a restaurant, but they don’t cause any disturbances. They are just curious what the rest of the place looks like, so we let them. They come back and politely “report” what they have seen.

Now, I did say we never punished. But we do occasionally point out to the children that they are getting a bit squirmy and that if a stroll doesn’t help them sit still then maybe something like push-ups or sit-ups or jumping jacks are in order. Yes, my kids do jumping jacks in Target if they aren’t listening. But this is a rare occasion, except for each night before bed when energy fills the children and some form of exercise becomes inevitable.

While I could go on about “high touch parenting”, my story is about the time when my wife didn’t. She didn’t break our guidelines in that she struck the kids, it was about the time she didn’t stop them when they acted in the way that children do, but they shouldn’t.

It was about 4 years ago, Ann had learned that her mother had an incurable but exceedingly rare disease. So rare, that only 10 people a year in the US ever have the disease. Her mom has been slowly dying ever since then. Her father had, less than 6 months before, also been given a death sentence in that he had a lung issue that would slowly rob him of his vitality. Now, mind you, both of them are still alive today, and have had the best and longest dying period. But at the time, we didn’t know if we would even have a chance to see them alive again.

It was on that day, when Ann’s heart was so burdened with concerns that, while at Target, she just ignored the kids. They were “those kids”, our great and fantastic kids who rarely put a foot wrong, were tare assing around ‘nam looking for the shit. And that is when Ann saw a well dressed man recoil with horror at our kids. Now clearly this young gentleman didn’t know the secrets of the EDS. He only knew bad behavior when he saw it. And, did he see it that day.

When Ann made it back home and collapsed into my arms, she told me how while she was there, she didn’t have the energy nor the will to stop the kids. She just couldn’t. Her heart was too heavy with concerns for her mother and she just looked at the kids in a fog. She could only sit there and quietly in her head wish that her children would behave better. She didn’t have the energy or the will to move faster out of Target only to plod hopelessly out. She would have felt ashamed, but a life sucking sadness was all she could feel.

And the Grinch aspect of this was that I was forced to acknowledge that by commission or omission other parents make this same choice. They choose at any given time not to be that parent that smiles at their kid and gets their kid to behave by showing them love. But sometimes, people have other things in their life that prevents them from making, what I feel, is the right choice. And when I see strangers, again in the Target, and their kids are acting up, I don’t know what else is happening in the parent’s life. I don’t know if they have financial issues or someone is dying or, like a coworker of mine now, has their in-laws trapped in Syria. All I see is the snapshot now: badly behaving kids. There may be a thousand things wrong with their life and some of them make it impossible to, for my convenience, make their kids shut the fuck up.

So now, I just smile. I know my kids are safe, my kids are happy, and those kids are not my kids. My life is blessed and I don’t know why those other parents are choosing at that time not to enjoy being with their children. It may not be a choice they can make at this time. And for me, that is OK. I still try to shoot an occasional EDS, but the power is weakened. Mostly I just smile. I’ve found that, while not as effective as the EDS in getting a kid to act right, a smile goes a long way. It makes me feel better about the situation, and really, that is all I can really change.

This is an amazing post, although the anecdote at the end is strikingly similar to one from Seven Habits of Highly Effective People . . .


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