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Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade
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USnavy


Jun 27, 2012, 12:26 AM
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Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade
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I move to remove the A6 grade from the site. The grade does not even exist. A5 implies every piece on the pitch is a bodyweight only piece, and it cant get much more serious than that.

As quoted by Wikipedia, "C6 or A6 does not exist, since the aid climbing scale was developed as discrete scale that is not open ended. Also, since C5 implies the death of both climber and belayer, a rating of C6 could not cause an increase in severity."

Furthermore, there isn't a single pitch on any climb in Yosemite graded A6, and Yosemite is pretty much the mecca of wall climbing. Thus, the grade has no use on this site.


guangzhou


Jun 27, 2012, 2:05 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
I move to remove the A6 grade from the site. The grade does not even exist. A5 implies every piece on the pitch is a bodyweight only piece, and it cant get much more serious than that.

As quoted by Wikipedia, "C6 or A6 does not exist, since the aid climbing scale was developed as discrete scale that is not open ended. Also, since C5 implies the death of both climber and belayer, a rating of C6 could not cause an increase in severity."

Furthermore, there isn't a single pitch on any climb in Yosemite graded A6, and Yosemite is pretty much the mecca of wall climbing. Thus, the grade has no use on this site.

A5 Doesn't imply that the belays are body weight only. A5 is nothing is likely to catch a fall on the entire pitch. Jolly Rancher coms to mind.

A6 is a Theoretical Grade where even the belays are unlikely to hold more than body weight only.

While Yosemite is on an aid climbing Meca, they are places where aid is being pushed very far, including but not limited the Fisher Towers.

I think, but I could be wrong, but it was John Middendorf that wrote a good piece on this subject way back. Pretty sure he knows more about aid climbing than you or I.

http://www.climbing.com/...n_the_fisher_towers/

The way I understand the Theoretical A6 grade is that it's A4+ maybe A5 climbing with belays that won't hold. Theoretical because no one has fallen on one of these routes yet. If someone were to fall and the belay help, the route is down graded, if the belays blows the grade stays.


A6 belay station


USnavy


Jun 27, 2012, 11:37 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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There are A3 and A4 routes on El Cap with crap belays that probably wouldn't hold a FF2, but they dont get slapped with an A6 rating. Furthermore, some of the A5s on El Cap have crappy 1/4" rivet and stud bolts for belays. Well if the leader falls at the end of the pitch and zippers down 200 feet onto a quarter-incher, do you really think it is going to hold? Probably not. As far as the Fish Towers A6+ stuff goes, my impression is that no one believes them. I only asked a few people about this subject, but those who I asked were A4 and A5 wall climbers and they said that they do not recognize the A6+ rating they gave that route. I am inclined to side with them, I mean how can you go from A5 to A6+ without even have ever climbed or rated an A5+ or A6? That's ludicrous, that's like going from 5.14 to 5.16 with no experience climbing 5.15, you cant grade something that is so far above the already highest standard - no one will believe you. Even yet, if A6 existed, it would mean that everything is bodyweight and shit. So how could you possibly have A6+? Its not physically possible to make something more severe than all bodyweight. Thats like rating a climb XXX instead of just X. You cant have anything more serious than X because a fall on an X rated route means you will likely die.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jun 27, 2012, 11:45 AM)


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Jun 27, 2012, 2:21 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Take this thread and go to the Aid forum, where, you can argue semantics.

USN, get out and do some real HFS, DFU pitches. guangzhou has some good stuff in his post regarding A6 and its theoritical position in the aid ratings. Personally, I enjoy the CRS when it comes to aid; where it becomes less about the numbers and more about the climbing.


guangzhou


Jun 28, 2012, 9:01 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
There are A3 and A4 routes on El Cap with crap belays that probably wouldn't hold a FF2, but they dont get slapped with an A6 rating.

Name 3. I've only climbed half a dozen El-Cap routes. I can think of No A3 route that has bad belay stations. Unless you're not good at placing gear or have an inadequate rack.

In reply to:
Furthermore, some of the A5s on El Cap have crappy 1/4" rivet and stud bolts for belays. Well if the leader falls at the end of the pitch and zippers down 200 feet onto a quarter-incher, do you really think it is going to hold?

On those A5, if a climber were to fall, zipper the pitch and yank the partner off the wall and they both die, it would most likely confirm the grade isn't A5 but A6.

I also think you should look up what a factor 2 fall is.

In reply to:
Probably not. As far as the Fish Towers A6+ stuff goes, my impression is that no one believes them. I only asked a few people about this subject, but those who I asked were A4 and A5 wall climbers and they said that they do not recognize the A6+ rating they gave that route.

Good for them, a few climbers do indeed recognize the theoretical grade.

There you go speaking expert and experienced climbers who have no names again. If you spoke with someone, tell us who instead of beating around the bush.

The first route in the Fisher tower given the grade was questioned, not sure the second one has been yet.

Aid is definitely about controlling you fear and perception of fear. Hooking for 30 feet above a solid bolts feel very different from hooking 100 feet above the same bolt.

Each hook move getting you higher and further from the bolt will feel harder even if it's not. (I know this for sure)

In reply to:
I am inclined to side with them, I mean how can you go from A5 to A6+ without even have ever climbed or rated an A5+ or A6?

That's what people said when Wolfgang Gulich rated Action Direct. Turns out that rating has not only stood the test of time, but the route has been up grade since.

In reply to:
That's ludicrous, that's like going from 5.14 to 5.16 with no experience climbing 5.15, you cant grade something that is so far above the already highest standard - no one will believe you.

See my statement above. Gullich proposed XI-/XI, which IS 8c+/9a, and that before confirmed 8a existed.

In reply to:
Even yet, if A6 existed, it would mean that everything is bodyweight and shit. So how could you possibly have A6+?
Technical versus straight forward body weight only and shitty.

In reply to:
Its not physically possible to make something more severe than all bodyweight. Thats like rating a climb XXX instead of just X. You cant have anything more serious than X because a fall on an X rated route means you will likely die.

Actually, an X routes mean you're risky injury or life. Not just likely to die.

The only way to know for sure if a route is A5 or A6 is to test the Theoretical grade. So, have an Aid Climber lead the entire A5 or A6 pitch. When reaching the next belay fall on purpose. If anything holds, we can downgrade the route to A4. If the climbers fall the entire pitch and takes his belayer with him from the pitch below, the route is definitely A6. Not just the climber dies, but so does the belayer.

If only the climber dies, the belayer survives, he can confirm the pitch as A5 and lead it himself.

Not sure if you heard of John Middendorf , he has a good description of aid grades.

If you don't believe A6 is possible, grab a partner and go challenge the grade.

Personally, I never plan on establishing an A5 or A6 route so no worried about the theoretical grade.

I will most likely avoid putting up an A4 on purpose but can see how that would happen. I've done one A3+ might as well have been A$ I was so scared. A4 route hope to avoid, just not worth the risk for me. Didn't find much pleasure in it.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jun 28, 2012, 9:26 PM)


avalon420


Jun 29, 2012, 6:17 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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A6 is totally plausible. I seriously doubt you've ever even aided (other than pulling on a quick draw) And did you even notice the irony of this postin regard to your own Sig. Go back to clipping bolts, duchebag c:


stagg54


Jun 29, 2012, 9:44 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs

Enough said.


Gmburns2000


Jun 29, 2012, 10:46 AM
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heh


6pacfershur


Jun 29, 2012, 7:09 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
On those A5, if a climber were to fall, zipper the pitch and yank the partner off the wall and they both die, it would most likely confirm the grade isn't A5 but A6.

let me see if i have this straight....if the leader falls, the belay fails, and both climbers die, we can upgrade the route?


guangzhou


Jun 29, 2012, 9:45 PM
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6pacfershur wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
On those A5, if a climber were to fall, zipper the pitch and yank the partner off the wall and they both die, it would most likely confirm the grade isn't A5 but A6.

let me see if i have this straight....if the leader falls, the belay fails, and both climbers die, we can upgrade the route?

A downgraded if any of the pieces held during the fall.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jun 29, 2012, 9:46 PM)


jh_angel


Jun 30, 2012, 1:27 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
See my statement above. Gullich proposed XI-/XI, which IS 8c+/9a, and that before confirmed 8a existed.

Sorry to thread jack, but...

Where did you get that last bit from? Gullich snagged the FA in 1991. In the late 80's many routes graded 8a and up at Smith alone saw repeats and had their grades confirmed in the process. To Bolt Or Not To Be (8b+) saw about 3 to 5 ascents by this time. So what do you consider an appropriate number of ascents to "confirm" a grade if that doesn't count in your book?


JimTitt


Jun 30, 2012, 10:57 PM
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jh_angel wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
See my statement above. Gullich proposed XI-/XI, which IS 8c+/9a, and that before confirmed 8a existed.

Sorry to thread jack, but...

Where did you get that last bit from? Gullich snagged the FA in 1991. In the late 80's many routes graded 8a and up at Smith alone saw repeats and had their grades confirmed in the process. To Bolt Or Not To Be (8b+) saw about 3 to 5 ascents by this time. So what do you consider an appropriate number of ascents to "confirm" a grade if that doesn't count in your book?

The Face (8a/8a+) was done in83 and confirmed in 84 as well as plenty of 8as around that time. The hardest route before Action Direkt was probably Hubble done the year before at 8c+.


sungam


Jul 1, 2012, 6:32 AM
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avalon420 wrote:
A6 is totally plausible. I seriously doubt you've ever even aided (other than pulling on a quick draw) And did you even notice the irony of this postin regard to your own Sig. Go back to clipping bolts, duchebag c:
You trollin right?


camhead


Jul 1, 2012, 8:54 AM
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This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs


Gmburns2000


Jul 1, 2012, 9:32 AM
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gu'd much?


USnavy


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Mark_Hudon


Jul 3, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!


sungam


Jul 4, 2012, 8:29 AM
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
If you're looking for somewhere nice, I hear the banzed darkle and now /r/MLPlounge is a lovely place.


marc801


Jul 4, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
What'd he say? He was a lame wimp and deleted his post.


johnwesely


Jul 4, 2012, 11:02 AM
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marc801 wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
What'd he say? He was a lame wimp and deleted his post.

In the interest of posterity. He was spraying about walls he had done. I don't remember if he was being rude or not.


Mark_Hudon


Jul 4, 2012, 12:32 PM
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I was referring to Avalon420's post.


marc801


Jul 4, 2012, 1:18 PM
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
I was referring to Avalon420's post.
Ah. But your reply was to USgumbyNavy. We're an easily confused bunch - we're climbers.
BTW, I still have the Max Jones manufactured 1/2 size friend you sold me in the Valley in the early 80's. How's that for an ancient memory? No, it's no longer on my rack, but it did catch a 20 footer.


Gmburns2000


Jul 4, 2012, 1:36 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
What'd he say? He was a lame wimp and deleted his post.

In the interest of posterity. He was spraying about walls he had done. I don't remember if he was being rude or not.

despite getting soaked from spray, I don't understand why it was deleted. Seemed like a non-roc.com climbing post to me.


Mark_Hudon


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marc801 wrote:

BTW, I still have the Max Jones manufactured 1/2 size friend you sold me in the Valley in the early 80's. How's that for an ancient memory? No, it's no longer on my rack, but it did catch a 20 footer.

Ha! That's funny!, Max and I laugh at each other now at how much of our stores we each remember differently!


guangzhou


Jul 4, 2012, 7:34 PM
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The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 4, 2012, 7:35 PM)


USnavy


Jul 4, 2012, 8:38 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 4, 2012, 9:04 PM)


avalon420


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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.
just to make certain this post doesn't magically disappear as his so frequently do.


avalon420


Jul 4, 2012, 9:58 PM
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sungam wrote:
avalon420 wrote:
A6 is totally plausible. I seriously doubt you've ever even aided (other than pulling on a quick draw) And did you even notice the irony of this postin regard to your own Sig. Go back to clipping bolts, duchebag c:
You trollin right?
More or less the only resonance I come here anymore Wink. And the primary reason for that would be the extraneous spray. It's a THEORETICAL grade (basically a a product of our own imaginations, can't be removed as it doesn't actually exist!) No self respecting aid climber (no need for spray, we know them when we see them) would ever rate a route A6. No person (outside of the assylum) would ever belay off hooks, they would either drill SOMETHING (no matter how crappy) or better yet simulclimb to a suitable place. On that I call Fish tower bs, but you can never remove a figment of some ones imagination.


guangzhou


Jul 4, 2012, 10:25 PM
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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.

I specifically remember it being 9 El-cap routes which is why I said nothing. Figured others would jump all over you.

Personally, I don't care what you have or have not climb based on these forums post. I'll decide if you a good partner or not after we meet face to face and do a pitch or two together. Everything else is internet chatter, individual perception and hearsay.

USNavy, for al I know, you're a very modest guy who does climb A5 and doesn't want to admit it or you're a 400 pound man who can't climb the stairs to reach the second floor of his house. Until I meet you face to face and climb with you, I'll have no idea who you really are.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 4, 2012, 10:27 PM)


USnavy


Jul 4, 2012, 10:52 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.

USNavy, for al I know, you're a very modest guy who does climb A5 and doesn't want to admit it or you're a 400 pound man who can't climb the stairs to reach the second floor of his house..
What about if I am a 400 pound guy that modestly climbs A5?




(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 4, 2012, 10:54 PM)


guangzhou


Jul 4, 2012, 11:08 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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I would down grade those route to A3+ plus forthe average sized climber.Wink


USnavy


Jul 5, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
I would down grade those route to A3+ plus forthe average sized climber.Wink
Well if you are downgrading my A5s without having ever climbed them, I am downgrading the hardest route in your gym to 5.9 under the notion that all Indonesians are weak.Smile


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 5, 2012, 11:15 AM)


guangzhou


Jul 5, 2012, 7:33 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Feel free, routes are suggestive.

Besides, it's not my gym, it belongs to our members. I am just the owner.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 5, 2012, 7:43 PM)


madbolter1


Jul 6, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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I personally don't believe in A6, or A6+, which was the fabled grade given to the pitch following the belay you show in the picture. That belay is from "Look Out! Danger!"

Just two days ago I finished the second ascent of "Look Out! Danger!" and downgraded the whole route to A3 (very brief sections of A3... less than 100 feet in 1200).

The route is a line of drilled euro-bashies and wooden pegs with soft-iron pitons driven into the wood-wedged holes. Even the belay in the picture is not all hooks. There are DEEP and large holes drilled fore and aft the anchor that take baby and 5/8" angles. I don't know what the FA team put into those holes, but they certainly drilled them deep enough. In short, that anchor wasn't going anywhere!

But the big point about this thread is only partly touched upon by that supposed example of an A6 belay. The real point is that there's simply no reason for a rating that merely ups the ante over A5 by saying that both people die instead of just one.

The fact is that the vast, vast majority (all?) of even A5 pitches have placements that are better than they seem. I have been held by RURP tips, baby-blade tips, #0 copperheads, etc... stuff that was supposed to fail "for sure."

Bottom line is that a "line" of placements (except for the tiniest hooks on micro-flakes) will all be absorbing energy even as they fail. And the fall factor is coming down even as does the leader, which dramatically reduces the forces on the placements as the zipper fall proceeds.

It is actually very, very hard to rip an entire pitch of even body-weight placements. And any decent hard-aid leader will bounce test placements on the way up, which means that they are actually good for at least three times body weight. And that's not too shabby from the perspective of absorbing energy even during a fail.

The "hook anchor" you cite as an example was entirely, utterly unnecessary, placed in the middle of a 170-foot pitch (how I did it) after a very short pitch, designed FOR the ultra-rating.

And that is the big point about bad anchors! They are almost always unnecessary, even if you are determined to not drill (which the FA team of Look Out! Danger! was NOT!). I could have anchored several places much better than the "hook anchor," and I ultimately did when I came to a spot that had much better rope-run for the subsequent pitch. And rope drag is very reasonable, even at the end of my 170-foot pitch that bypasses the "hook anchor."

Long and short is that "death anchors" are a mistake of some sort and are unnecessary. The "hook anchor" is a perfect example of my points. Even the fabled "death anchors" on Intifada proved to not exist. If you know what you're doing, you can do better!

The two routes in the Fishers called A6 and A6+ were both A4+ and A3 respectively (Intifada and Look Out! Danger!), and having done the SA of both of them, I think I'm qualified to have an educated opinion that A6 is a mythical grade implying a mistake rather than some sort of respectable heroism.

Cheers!


Mark_Hudon


Jul 6, 2012, 1:25 PM
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Re: [madbolter1] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Madbolter1 is certainly someone qualified to talk about A5 and A6!


madbolter1


Jul 6, 2012, 1:48 PM
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Thank you kindly, Mark. Best to you!


guangzhou


Jul 6, 2012, 9:15 PM
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Re: [madbolter1] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Thanks MadBolter, and I agree with your post. But again, the A6 is Theoretical (Fabled). The difference would be a belay that wouldn't hold. I can't speak to A5, but I always wondered how one would know for sure if the pitch would zipper or not myself.

Death belay station I agree they should never exist a bad belay station just to up the rating. A dangerous belay created on purpose is @#$%^. I guess some people just want o be famous for some reason.

Personally, I avoid things harder than A3+ and I don't place pitons. I think if a piton is needed today, save it for future generation. (Digress.) Same with rurp and heads.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 6, 2012, 9:18 PM)


moose_droppings


Jul 6, 2012, 10:22 PM
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In reply to:
The real point is that there's simply no reason for a rating that merely ups the ante over A5 by saying that both people die instead of just one.

This seems right to me.

If everyone dies on an A6, who rated it?
Who could vouch for it?


sungam


Jul 7, 2012, 1:04 AM
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madbolter1 wrote:
having done the SA of both of them, I think I'm qualified to have an educated opinion
Hahaha, yeah - I reckon you just might be. Thanks for the post, it was a great read.


dr_feelgood


Jul 7, 2012, 8:58 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
Feel free, routes are suggestive.

Besides, it's not my gym, it belongs to our members. I am just the owner.
Is this newspeak?


guangzhou


Jul 7, 2012, 9:02 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Feel free, routes are suggestive.

Besides, it's not my gym, it belongs to our members. I am just the owner.
Is this newspeak?

Guess you would have to come and climb here to understand the full meaning. A bit far for just a gym.


Marylandclimber


Jul 19, 2012, 9:32 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Maybe they should make the grades depending a little more on the climbers weight? Just a thought.


marc801


Jul 20, 2012, 6:29 AM
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Marylandclimber wrote:
Maybe they should make the grades depending a little more on the climbers weight? Just a thought.
Modern aid ratings aren't just about the number of body-weight only pieces and length of fall as they once were in the old-school grades. Now the seriousness of the fall is also taken into account - specifically what you might or will hit on the way down. And point of historic reference - sending the lighter weight climber out on the sketch A4 and A5 pitches (especially if expando flakes are involved) has been relatively common practice in Yosemite for decades.

Read this by John Middendorf:
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Ratings.html
for the detailed description.


Marylandclimber


Jul 20, 2012, 9:29 AM
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Oh. So an A6 fall is a most likely death? Aid climbing is scary:/


marc801


Jul 20, 2012, 10:07 AM
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Marylandclimber wrote:
Oh. So an A6 fall is a most likely death? Aid climbing is scary:/
As mentioned a lot of times up-thread - A6 is a THEORETICAL grade, since no one has actually tested it. A6 is most definitely death for the entire party, since the belay will rip out. If the belay holds, then by the idiotic, hokey definition, the route cannot be A6, but "only" A5. A5 means, among other things, that if the leader falls, serious injury is extremely likely and death a strong possibility.

Here is John Middendorf's example of A4+:
John Middendorf wrote:
Examples: the "Welcome to Wyoming" pitch (formerly the"Psycho Killer" pitch) on the Wyoming Sheep Ranch on El Cap, requiring 50 feet of climbing through a loose, broken, and rotten Diorite roof with very marginal, scary placements like stoppers wedged in between two loose, shifting, rope-slicing slivers of rock, all this over a big jagged loose ledge which would surely break and maim bones.

I agree with the premise of this thread - the A6 grade is ego stroking bull shit of the highest order. Especially so when expert aid climbers who really know their shit repeat these supposed horror shows and find numerous drillings and are able to down grade these routes to A5 and A4.


rocknice2


Jul 20, 2012, 3:04 PM
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marc801 wrote:
A6 is a THEORETICAL grade, since no one has actually tested it.

Well has anyone tested A5.

You mentioned earlier that those RURPs, Bird Beaks and #0 Bashies can hold a fall especially if there is a lot of rope out. I totally agree.
So where does this leave us, maybe A5 = 150ft of BURPs

Climbers have also decked from having their gear pull on free climbs that would protect @ C2 or C3.


majid_sabet


Jul 20, 2012, 9:26 PM
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US nany is taking you guys on a A5 troll ride. commando has never done any el cap route nor ever posted anything of him climbing in Yosemite.

Come on privet, post an image of yourself on elcap or anywhere in the valley so we could believe you.


USnavy


Jul 20, 2012, 10:27 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
US nany is taking you guys on a A5 troll ride. commando has never done any el cap route nor ever posted anything of him climbing in Yosemite.

Come on privet, post an image of yourself on elcap or anywhere in the valley so we could believe you.
haha, says the guy that told me he spends every summer in Yosemite and works for YOSAR, but then confessed he has never even been to Yosemite after I talked with the YOSAR guys and they confirmed they dont even know you let alone work with you. Tell me the story about John Long again, you know, the one where you guys are best buds. I had dinner with J Long, and like the YOSAR crew, he has never heard of you.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 20, 2012, 10:32 PM)


majid_sabet


Jul 20, 2012, 11:01 PM
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post one picture of yourself that you climb


USnavy


Jul 22, 2012, 9:12 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
post one picture of yourself that you climb
Says the non-climber.


dindolino32


Jul 23, 2012, 12:27 PM
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dont worry, im not a climber either.... in fact, I'm not even human, I am a ROBOT.....


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