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Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade
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USnavy


Jul 4, 2012, 8:38 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 4, 2012, 9:04 PM)


avalon420


Jul 4, 2012, 9:32 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.
just to make certain this post doesn't magically disappear as his so frequently do.


avalon420


Jul 4, 2012, 9:58 PM
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Re: [sungam] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
avalon420 wrote:
A6 is totally plausible. I seriously doubt you've ever even aided (other than pulling on a quick draw) And did you even notice the irony of this postin regard to your own Sig. Go back to clipping bolts, duchebag c:
You trollin right?
More or less the only resonance I come here anymore Wink. And the primary reason for that would be the extraneous spray. It's a THEORETICAL grade (basically a a product of our own imaginations, can't be removed as it doesn't actually exist!) No self respecting aid climber (no need for spray, we know them when we see them) would ever rate a route A6. No person (outside of the assylum) would ever belay off hooks, they would either drill SOMETHING (no matter how crappy) or better yet simulclimb to a suitable place. On that I call Fish tower bs, but you can never remove a figment of some ones imagination.


guangzhou


Jul 4, 2012, 10:25 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.

I specifically remember it being 9 El-cap routes which is why I said nothing. Figured others would jump all over you.

Personally, I don't care what you have or have not climb based on these forums post. I'll decide if you a good partner or not after we meet face to face and do a pitch or two together. Everything else is internet chatter, individual perception and hearsay.

USNavy, for al I know, you're a very modest guy who does climb A5 and doesn't want to admit it or you're a 400 pound man who can't climb the stairs to reach the second floor of his house. Until I meet you face to face and climb with you, I'll have no idea who you really are.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 4, 2012, 10:27 PM)


USnavy


Jul 4, 2012, 10:52 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.
I drafted a standard form rc.com spraydown memo about how I have lead up to A3/ C3+F, and thus I thought it was safe to say I had climbed a pitch or two of aid; contrary to Avalon's belief. I also said I had climbed nine walls in Yosemite, further confirming the fact that I have used my aiders for something other than to rack my draws for inspection before my next big 5.8 sport top rope hangdog aid single pitch slab wall. That was pretty much the bulk of it. Anyway, this would not be rc.com without some VII 5.13/A4/V12 (X) spraydown. It's a dirty job and Sungram sure as hell wont do it, so I have to fill in.

USNavy, for al I know, you're a very modest guy who does climb A5 and doesn't want to admit it or you're a 400 pound man who can't climb the stairs to reach the second floor of his house..
What about if I am a 400 pound guy that modestly climbs A5?




(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 4, 2012, 10:54 PM)


guangzhou


Jul 4, 2012, 11:08 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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I would down grade those route to A3+ plus forthe average sized climber.Wink


USnavy


Jul 5, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
I would down grade those route to A3+ plus forthe average sized climber.Wink
Well if you are downgrading my A5s without having ever climbed them, I am downgrading the hardest route in your gym to 5.9 under the notion that all Indonesians are weak.Smile


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 5, 2012, 11:15 AM)


guangzhou


Jul 5, 2012, 7:33 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Feel free, routes are suggestive.

Besides, it's not my gym, it belongs to our members. I am just the owner.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 5, 2012, 7:43 PM)


madbolter1


Jul 6, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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I personally don't believe in A6, or A6+, which was the fabled grade given to the pitch following the belay you show in the picture. That belay is from "Look Out! Danger!"

Just two days ago I finished the second ascent of "Look Out! Danger!" and downgraded the whole route to A3 (very brief sections of A3... less than 100 feet in 1200).

The route is a line of drilled euro-bashies and wooden pegs with soft-iron pitons driven into the wood-wedged holes. Even the belay in the picture is not all hooks. There are DEEP and large holes drilled fore and aft the anchor that take baby and 5/8" angles. I don't know what the FA team put into those holes, but they certainly drilled them deep enough. In short, that anchor wasn't going anywhere!

But the big point about this thread is only partly touched upon by that supposed example of an A6 belay. The real point is that there's simply no reason for a rating that merely ups the ante over A5 by saying that both people die instead of just one.

The fact is that the vast, vast majority (all?) of even A5 pitches have placements that are better than they seem. I have been held by RURP tips, baby-blade tips, #0 copperheads, etc... stuff that was supposed to fail "for sure."

Bottom line is that a "line" of placements (except for the tiniest hooks on micro-flakes) will all be absorbing energy even as they fail. And the fall factor is coming down even as does the leader, which dramatically reduces the forces on the placements as the zipper fall proceeds.

It is actually very, very hard to rip an entire pitch of even body-weight placements. And any decent hard-aid leader will bounce test placements on the way up, which means that they are actually good for at least three times body weight. And that's not too shabby from the perspective of absorbing energy even during a fail.

The "hook anchor" you cite as an example was entirely, utterly unnecessary, placed in the middle of a 170-foot pitch (how I did it) after a very short pitch, designed FOR the ultra-rating.

And that is the big point about bad anchors! They are almost always unnecessary, even if you are determined to not drill (which the FA team of Look Out! Danger! was NOT!). I could have anchored several places much better than the "hook anchor," and I ultimately did when I came to a spot that had much better rope-run for the subsequent pitch. And rope drag is very reasonable, even at the end of my 170-foot pitch that bypasses the "hook anchor."

Long and short is that "death anchors" are a mistake of some sort and are unnecessary. The "hook anchor" is a perfect example of my points. Even the fabled "death anchors" on Intifada proved to not exist. If you know what you're doing, you can do better!

The two routes in the Fishers called A6 and A6+ were both A4+ and A3 respectively (Intifada and Look Out! Danger!), and having done the SA of both of them, I think I'm qualified to have an educated opinion that A6 is a mythical grade implying a mistake rather than some sort of respectable heroism.

Cheers!


Mark_Hudon


Jul 6, 2012, 1:25 PM
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Re: [madbolter1] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Madbolter1 is certainly someone qualified to talk about A5 and A6!


madbolter1


Jul 6, 2012, 1:48 PM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Thank you kindly, Mark. Best to you!


guangzhou


Jul 6, 2012, 9:15 PM
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Re: [madbolter1] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Thanks MadBolter, and I agree with your post. But again, the A6 is Theoretical (Fabled). The difference would be a belay that wouldn't hold. I can't speak to A5, but I always wondered how one would know for sure if the pitch would zipper or not myself.

Death belay station I agree they should never exist a bad belay station just to up the rating. A dangerous belay created on purpose is @#$%^. I guess some people just want o be famous for some reason.

Personally, I avoid things harder than A3+ and I don't place pitons. I think if a piton is needed today, save it for future generation. (Digress.) Same with rurp and heads.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 6, 2012, 9:18 PM)


moose_droppings


Jul 6, 2012, 10:22 PM
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Re: [madbolter1] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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In reply to:
The real point is that there's simply no reason for a rating that merely ups the ante over A5 by saying that both people die instead of just one.

This seems right to me.

If everyone dies on an A6, who rated it?
Who could vouch for it?


sungam


Jul 7, 2012, 1:04 AM
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Re: [madbolter1] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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madbolter1 wrote:
having done the SA of both of them, I think I'm qualified to have an educated opinion
Hahaha, yeah - I reckon you just might be. Thanks for the post, it was a great read.


dr_feelgood


Jul 7, 2012, 8:58 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Feel free, routes are suggestive.

Besides, it's not my gym, it belongs to our members. I am just the owner.
Is this newspeak?


guangzhou


Jul 7, 2012, 9:02 PM
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Re: [dr_feelgood] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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dr_feelgood wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Feel free, routes are suggestive.

Besides, it's not my gym, it belongs to our members. I am just the owner.
Is this newspeak?

Guess you would have to come and climb here to understand the full meaning. A bit far for just a gym.


Marylandclimber


Jul 19, 2012, 9:32 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Maybe they should make the grades depending a little more on the climbers weight? Just a thought.


marc801


Jul 20, 2012, 6:29 AM
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Re: [Marylandclimber] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Marylandclimber wrote:
Maybe they should make the grades depending a little more on the climbers weight? Just a thought.
Modern aid ratings aren't just about the number of body-weight only pieces and length of fall as they once were in the old-school grades. Now the seriousness of the fall is also taken into account - specifically what you might or will hit on the way down. And point of historic reference - sending the lighter weight climber out on the sketch A4 and A5 pitches (especially if expando flakes are involved) has been relatively common practice in Yosemite for decades.

Read this by John Middendorf:
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Ratings.html
for the detailed description.


Marylandclimber


Jul 20, 2012, 9:29 AM
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Re: [marc801] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Oh. So an A6 fall is a most likely death? Aid climbing is scary:/


marc801


Jul 20, 2012, 10:07 AM
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Re: [Marylandclimber] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Marylandclimber wrote:
Oh. So an A6 fall is a most likely death? Aid climbing is scary:/
As mentioned a lot of times up-thread - A6 is a THEORETICAL grade, since no one has actually tested it. A6 is most definitely death for the entire party, since the belay will rip out. If the belay holds, then by the idiotic, hokey definition, the route cannot be A6, but "only" A5. A5 means, among other things, that if the leader falls, serious injury is extremely likely and death a strong possibility.

Here is John Middendorf's example of A4+:
John Middendorf wrote:
Examples: the "Welcome to Wyoming" pitch (formerly the"Psycho Killer" pitch) on the Wyoming Sheep Ranch on El Cap, requiring 50 feet of climbing through a loose, broken, and rotten Diorite roof with very marginal, scary placements like stoppers wedged in between two loose, shifting, rope-slicing slivers of rock, all this over a big jagged loose ledge which would surely break and maim bones.

I agree with the premise of this thread - the A6 grade is ego stroking bull shit of the highest order. Especially so when expert aid climbers who really know their shit repeat these supposed horror shows and find numerous drillings and are able to down grade these routes to A5 and A4.


rocknice2


Jul 20, 2012, 3:04 PM
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Re: [marc801] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
A6 is a THEORETICAL grade, since no one has actually tested it.

Well has anyone tested A5.

You mentioned earlier that those RURPs, Bird Beaks and #0 Bashies can hold a fall especially if there is a lot of rope out. I totally agree.
So where does this leave us, maybe A5 = 150ft of BURPs

Climbers have also decked from having their gear pull on free climbs that would protect @ C2 or C3.


majid_sabet


Jul 20, 2012, 9:26 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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US nany is taking you guys on a A5 troll ride. commando has never done any el cap route nor ever posted anything of him climbing in Yosemite.

Come on privet, post an image of yourself on elcap or anywhere in the valley so we could believe you.


USnavy


Jul 20, 2012, 10:27 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
US nany is taking you guys on a A5 troll ride. commando has never done any el cap route nor ever posted anything of him climbing in Yosemite.

Come on privet, post an image of yourself on elcap or anywhere in the valley so we could believe you.
haha, says the guy that told me he spends every summer in Yosemite and works for YOSAR, but then confessed he has never even been to Yosemite after I talked with the YOSAR guys and they confirmed they dont even know you let alone work with you. Tell me the story about John Long again, you know, the one where you guys are best buds. I had dinner with J Long, and like the YOSAR crew, he has never heard of you.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 20, 2012, 10:32 PM)


majid_sabet


Jul 20, 2012, 11:01 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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post one picture of yourself that you climb


USnavy


Jul 22, 2012, 9:12 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
post one picture of yourself that you climb
Says the non-climber.

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