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yosemitebowline
Jul 15, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Apparently, finishing up the bowline with the Yosemite finish actually unties the bowline.
This video shows how this can happen - this seems to me a bit dangerous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI
(This post was edited by yosemitebowline on Jul 15, 2012, 12:59 PM)
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dindolino32
Jul 16, 2012, 4:44 AM
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I thought the Yosemite finish was only with the double figure 8 knot anyway.
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majid_sabet
Jul 16, 2012, 5:13 AM
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and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline in their rigging to rescue climbers
I know, we all gonna die
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stefanfischer
Jul 16, 2012, 8:01 AM
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I think the original poster was referring to the Bowline with the Yosemite finish, not to a simple Bowline. Both are not safe for climbing!
The picture you've posted shows the simple bowline, and a bunch of other knots - but no Yosemite finish as far as I can see.
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ninepointeight
Jul 16, 2012, 11:31 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline
Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up.
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wivanoff
Jul 16, 2012, 1:19 PM
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You could say the same thing about a loose improperly dressed clove hitch or any other improperly dressed knot.
Most people I know (myself included) tie a double loop bowline with a Yosemite finish to a 1/2 double fisherman's. And we tend to dress the knot properly instead of loosely as shown in that alarmist video.
Move along, folks. There's nothing to see here.
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trenchdigger
Jul 16, 2012, 3:33 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline in their rigging to rescue climbers [img]http://s10.postimage.org/rh5mgt3nd/PICT0152.jpg[/img] I know, we all gonna die
And they don't even use a yosemite finish with them... Definitely gunna die!!!1
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JimTitt
Jul 16, 2012, 4:13 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline in their rigging to rescue climbers [img]http://s10.postimage.org/rh5mgt3nd/PICT0152.jpg[/img] I know, we all gonna die And they don't even use a yosemite finish with them... Definitely gunna die!!!1
No stoppers on those badly dressed 8īs either, death on a stick!
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majid_sabet
Jul 16, 2012, 5:49 PM
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ninepointeight wrote: majid_sabet wrote: and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up.
I posted a image right off the most commonly used mountain rescue rope rigging manual and if that's not enough for you then you need to stop climbing
and if you ever see a bunch of guys coming to rescue you with a bowline, tell them, we alllll gooonaaa die
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ninepointeight
Jul 16, 2012, 5:55 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: ninepointeight wrote: majid_sabet wrote: and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up. I posted a image right off the most commonly used mountain rescue rope rigging manual and if that's not enough for you then you need to stop climbing and if you ever see a bunch of guys coming to rescue you with a bowline, tell them, we alllll gooonaaa die
I don't have a problem with the picture. You said '75%' of rescuers in North America use a bowline. How many rescuers did you poll or what survey did you use as a source for that statistic?
I think you made up a statistic to give your statement weight. I'm calling bullshit.
(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Jul 16, 2012, 5:57 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jul 16, 2012, 6:57 PM
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ninepointeight wrote: majid_sabet wrote: ninepointeight wrote: majid_sabet wrote: and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up. I posted a image right off the most commonly used mountain rescue rope rigging manual and if that's not enough for you then you need to stop climbing and if you ever see a bunch of guys coming to rescue you with a bowline, tell them, we alllll gooonaaa die I don't have a problem with the picture. You said ' 75%' of rescuers in North America use a bowline. How many rescuers did you poll or what survey did you use as a source for that statistic? I think you made up a statistic to give your statement weight. I'm calling bullshit.
Are you involved in any mountain rescue activities ?
I mean, generally when a specialty manual shows a certain way of rigging and its backed by a lot of well known people on a specific industry, it could indicate a trend. may be not 75% but even higher.
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ninepointeight
Jul 16, 2012, 6:59 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Are you involved in any mountain rescue activities ? I mean, generally when a specialty manual shows a certain way of rigging and its backed by a lot of well known people on a specific industry, it could indicate a trend. may be not 75% but even higher.
No.
You admit you made up the statistic then?
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majid_sabet
Jul 16, 2012, 8:57 PM
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ninepointeight wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Are you involved in any mountain rescue activities ? I mean, generally when a specialty manual shows a certain way of rigging and its backed by a lot of well known people on a specific industry, it could indicate a trend. may be not 75% but even higher. No. You admit you made up the statistic then?
if you are not involved with mountain rescue team or those who use this specific knot then the given percentage does not apply to you nor should you be concern.
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ninepointeight
Jul 16, 2012, 9:03 PM
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Up Up Down Left Right A B
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wivanoff
Jul 17, 2012, 1:53 PM
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I notice that YosemiteBowline from Germany joined Youtube on 7/14/12 and posted this video.
YosemiteBowline then joined rc.com on 7/15 and linked to this video saying: "The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems"
Stefanfischer from Germany joined rc.com on 7/16 and refers to the OP's (YosemiteBowline's) comments.
Stefanfischer joined UKC.com on 7/16 and linked to the youtube video
http://www.ukclimbing.com/...200&v=1#x6950948 "Yosemite bowline not safe for climbing"
Stefanfischer joined Gunks.com on 7/16 and linked to the youtube video
http://gunks.com/...is_not_safe_f#UNREAD"Yosemite bowline is not safe for climbing"
Stefanfischer joined supertopo.com on 7/16 and linked to the youtube video saying he "just seen" it
http://www.supertopo.com/...r-climbing-after-all"The Yosemite bowline isn't safe for climbing after all"
Just curious: Stefan Fischer, are you "YosemiteBowline" and did you post that youtube video?
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Marylandclimber
Jul 17, 2012, 2:18 PM
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Why doesn't everyone just tie the figure eight. You don't have all these problems like the bowline.
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maldaly
Jul 17, 2012, 4:54 PM
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There's actually an intelligent discussion about this same video going on over at supertopo:
http://www.supertopo.com/...r-climbing-after-all
A lote less speculation and some actual testing results rather than knot tricks and flame-wars.
climb safe,
Mal
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rgold
Jul 17, 2012, 5:10 PM
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Although we have to thank Stefan for bringing this issue to everyone's attention, I think it has now been shown to be a false alarm. See Jim Titt's test results posted in the threads on this subject on UKC,
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=513200,
and SuperTopo,
http://www.supertopo.com/...r-climbing-after-all.
There are two points to understand. The first is that, of course, that the alternative configuration in the video is very easily avoided. But more importantly, the warnings about the knot being "untied" in case the alternative configuration is somehow obtained are not true in any practical sense. The "incorrect" version of the knot, properly dressed and tightened, is fine, as Jim's tests demonstrate.
The video obtains the "untied" state of the alternative configuration by considerably transforming a loosely-tied knot. In this regard, one should note that an ordinary bowline, if loosely tied, can be transformed in an analogous way to an untied configuration. The point is that these transformations require a very loose knot and do not occur when a properly dressed and tightened knot is loaded. Put another way, the fact that a knot can be loosened and transformed to something bad does not mean that the knot itself is bad if it is not loose and so not transformable.
So whether you do the Yosemite finish correctly or incorrectly, as long as you dress and tighten your knot, you get an acceptable result either way.
Whether or not this is the knot you choose is another issue.
(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 17, 2012, 5:12 PM)
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guangzhou
Jul 18, 2012, 1:59 AM
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Marylandclimber wrote: Why doesn't everyone just tie the figure eight. You don't have all these problems like the bowline.
Because some of us prefer the bowline and have no issues with it. Over 20 years of tying the knot now.
Why don't some people realize that the way they do things isn't the only correct way.
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rgold
Jul 18, 2012, 2:35 AM
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I think the bowline might be more of a problem now than it used to be.
Offhand, I think I know 4 knots for tying in (not counting finishing variations), 4 knots for clipping in, 7 knots for joining two ropes, and 5 friction knots. (Just counting off in my head here and probably missing some.) There are a few more suited to anchoring to trees and for self-rescue applications, so maybe altogether 25 or 30 climbing knots.
When I started climbing, the bowline was the standard knot, perhaps for as much as 100 years, but all knots were assumed to have strengths and weaknesses, so we learned a bunch and chose the one that seemed best suited to the task.
When the figure-8 was first introduced, it was promoted as the only knot a climber had to know. Rethreaded figure-8 for tie-in, figure-8 loop for clip-in, Flemish bend for joining two ropes, and you were set. I think the mentality of knowling a little as opposed to a lot set in, even though the figure-8 for everything idea faded.
The figure-8 tie-in has much to recommend it and I would never tell anyone to use anything else. But for those who can tie knots and evaluate the results, it is worth having a toolbox with more than one tool in it.
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USnavy
Jul 18, 2012, 4:41 AM
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yosemitebowline wrote: Apparently, finishing up the bowline with the Yosemite finish actually unties the bowline. This video shows how this can happen - this seems to me a bit dangerous: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI
Here is how I do it. But instead of having a fisherman's knot at the end, I take the tail and feed if back through the two horizontal circles of rope that pinch the body of the bowline.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 18, 2012, 4:48 AM)
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wivanoff
Jul 18, 2012, 1:17 PM
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I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread...
The video shows a single loop bowline with a "Yosemite" finish. The knot is poorly tied, unfinished and then manipulated. Maybe I should make a youtube video of a loosely tied and manipulated clove hitch on a carabiner and see if it gets as much mileage as this thread....
Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline? I can't remember ever seeing anyone do that. Maybe you have, but I haven't. For the last 40 years I've used a double loop bowline and then a grapevine knot (half double fisherman's) after the Yosemite finish.
And I still find it strange that the user "YosemiteBowline" created an account here just to promote his youtube video and hasn't been back for any discussion since. Is there no WIFI under the bridge?
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Marylandclimber
Jul 18, 2012, 1:31 PM
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I understand it's worth knowing many knots and how safe they are but tying in with the bowline sounds just stupid. We had the incident in the climbing gym with an experienced climber falling because he tied in with a bowline. The figure eight is very easy to visually check and is super strong. But i see what your saying.
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acorneau
Jul 18, 2012, 3:18 PM
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wivanoff wrote: Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline?
Yes, I know a few people that do. I personally go for the bowline-on-a-bight (follow-through version, of course) with the tail tucked back down.
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stefanfischer
Jul 18, 2012, 3:34 PM
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My knot of choice is also the re-threaded bowline, as someone posted here with a picture.
I wanted to do the Yosemite bowline, but someone sent me this video link to warn me, and the warning was heard.
I don't think this knot is safe after all. It can collapse without being unthreaded at all, or it can be all wrong to begin with if I just tighten it the wrong way.
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cracklover
Jul 18, 2012, 3:35 PM
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acorneau wrote: wivanoff wrote: Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline? Yes, I know a few people that do. I personally go for the bowline-on-a-bight (follow-through version, of course) with the tail tucked back down.
Yes, I know people who do, too. It's not that uncommon. Personally I use a double bowline with a double-overhand tie-off.
Except on long multi-pitch, when I use a fig-8 follow-through.
GO
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rgold
Jul 18, 2012, 5:30 PM
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The rethreaded bowline on a bight is almost certainly the best tie-in knot for all purposes. But, as I said on another site, the rethreaded figure-8 is the Microsoft Office of tie-in knots and is not likely to be going anywhere any time soon.
The rethreaded bowline puts two loops of rope through the harness tie-in points, which means four loops total if, like me, you are using half ropes. This is getting rather crowded if you use the relatively fat 8.5mm half ropes I have.
So I still prefer and use bowlines for tying in. I've been tying various versions for 55 years and am fully aware of what to do and what not to do. No matter what anyone says to the contrary, I have seen rethreaded figure-8's weld and have had it happen to me, requiring about twenty minutes and the aid of a partner to get the stupid thing undone.
My current preference for half-ropes is to tie a double bowline with Yosemite finish and grapevine backup knot. The reason I don't eschew the Yosemite finish and put the backup knot on the rope loop is, first of all, because this crowds the harness tie-in points, but mainly because I clip my belay device to the rope loop, not the harness belay loop, and prefer to have the rope loops free of obstructions.
After careful inspection of the possibilities brought up in the video and in view of the tests Jim graciously performed for us, I have no personal qualms whatsoever about continuing to tie in in this way. I don't see myself ever producing the alternative configuration (which in any case is safe), and also know how to test, during the tightening process, which configuration I have tied. I never have and never will have that alternative configuration to deal with.
I've done my best to make this personal; I'm not recommending any of these things to anyone else, and I think Stephan has done the climbing world a service by alerting us to this issue.
As for bowlines coming undone, two points.
(1) A bowline without some kind of back-up finish is dangerous and should not be considered a knot for climbing. At the very least, you need a grapvine stopper knot on the rope loop. Jay has a non-Yosemite finish. I like the Yosemite finish plus the grapevine.
If you tie in with a bowline that hasn't been finished in some way, you are as stupid as Maryland climber suggests. Sadly, I have seen at least one video, aimed at climbers, in which this is done. The idiot demonstrating this starts up on a lead immediately after tying an unfinished single bowline.
(2) After 55 years of use, I am sceptical about reports about bowlines coming undone. I suspect that in the verified cases, violation of rule (1) is the cause. I say "verified" cases because in at least one instance, the gym fatality in UK, the investigators assumed a bowline must have been used without any direct evidence, and ignored the far more likely possibility that, because of distraction, no knot had been tied at all.
Again, understand that I am not trying to convince anyone two switch from their preferred knot.
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wivanoff
Jul 19, 2012, 12:03 PM
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cracklover wrote: acorneau wrote: wivanoff wrote: Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline? Yes, I know a few people that do. I personally go for the bowline-on-a-bight (follow-through version, of course) with the tail tucked back down. Yes, I know people who do, too. It's not that uncommon. Personally I use a double bowline with a double-overhand tie-off. Except on long multi-pitch, when I use a fig-8 follow-through. GO
OK, I see your point. I've always considered the "Yosemite Bowline" to be a Double Bowline (ABOK #1013) with a Yosemite finish and a Half Double Fisherman's knot on the standing end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bowline That's what I typically use and what was shown in the 1972(?) Chouinard catalog as the "Kor Knot". (edit: it was 1975 GPIW catalog page 31) I've been using it since I saw it there years ago. If a gym requires a Figure 8 Follow Though, I will do that. That's a good knot, it's just not MY preference.
But, you guys are talking about a single loop bowline (ABOK #1010) with the so-called Yosemite finish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_bowline. That was what was loosely tied and manipulated in the youtube video. I agree. That is NOT something I would use.
And, although the video clearly showed the single loop bowline, when I read "Yosemite Bowline" I had in my head the Double Bowline knot I described above in my first paragraph. Sorry about that.
(This post was edited by wivanoff on Jul 19, 2012, 12:14 PM)
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pfwein
Aug 3, 2012, 4:18 PM
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USnavy wrote: . . . Here is how I do it. But instead of having a fisherman's knot at the end, I take the tail and feed if back through the two horizontal circles of rope that pinch the body of the bowline.
I like the "USnavy" finish to the retraced bowline--otherwise, you need a huge amount of rope for the the final half fisherman's, or you're left with a dangler.
Anyone else use the "USnavy" finish or have any concerns with it? Seems to snug up nicely, but now I have some generalized fear of strange things happening with bowlines when extra passes are made!
(This post was edited by pfwein on Aug 3, 2012, 4:22 PM)
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USnavy
Aug 14, 2012, 4:12 AM
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pfwein wrote: USnavy wrote: . . . Here is how I do it. But instead of having a fisherman's knot at the end, I take the tail and feed if back through the two horizontal circles of rope that pinch the body of the bowline. I like the "USnavy" finish to the retraced bowline--otherwise, you need a huge amount of rope for the the final half fisherman's, or you're left with a dangler. Anyone else use the "USnavy" finish or have any concerns with it? Seems to snug up nicely, but now I have some generalized fear of strange things happening with bowlines when extra passes are made!
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dcfdrescue2
Sep 3, 2012, 11:56 AM
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So... I'm not a climber, but a rescue guy who tries to keep up with a much rope stuff as I can. I use the bowline with a Yosemite pretty often. There are a bunch of variations of it: Bowline on a bight with a Yosemite, Bowline w/a bight and Yo, Inline Bowline w/ Yo (gives you a loop facing each way), etc...
The basic form of a Bowline with or without a Yosemite offer an almost endless supply of rigging options that, once you are familiar with, are not hard to spot if they are tied correctly. While the Bowline with a Yosemite might not be everybody's ideal version of a harness tie-in, I don't think it deserves to be entirely discounted just because one variation of one use is not what you think might be best.
Not flaming, just discussing. I made a blog post about it on my website with a link to a few videos that might show you why some variations of it work for rescuers:
http://rescue2training.com/2012/09/03/bowlinedeath/
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acorneau
Sep 3, 2012, 12:59 PM
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Damn, somebody must have a Rock Exotica VIP card!
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