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caughtinside


Jul 24, 2012, 9:15 PM
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Re: [USnavy] When it it safe to be the most experienced climber in a group? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.


USnavy


Jul 24, 2012, 10:24 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.


moose_droppings


Jul 24, 2012, 11:02 PM
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Re: [USnavy] When it it safe to be the most experienced climber in a group? [In reply to]
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Was it the one at Indian Creek?

There's this 1 but it was a BD that stopped him in the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ854rwQZUI

Seems like there was another one like that at the Creek too where the guy ripped 3 but then decked.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jul 24, 2012, 11:03 PM)


granite_grrl


Jul 25, 2012, 4:43 AM
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Re: [USnavy] When it it safe to be the most experienced climber in a group? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Who ever it was probably tore a huge hole in their patagucci boxers and still has a scar on their ass.


snoopy138


Jul 25, 2012, 9:02 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Who ever it was probably tore a huge hole in their patagucci boxers and still has a scar on their ass.

he should probibly quit climbing.


Partner cracklover


Jul 25, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Re: [USnavy] When it it safe to be the most experienced climber in a group? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you're remembering it wrong. I can think of a couple accidents in recent history, both at the Creek, both with very clear reasons for the gear pulling. Not perfect placements of mid-sized cams in good rock.

GO


Partner drector


Jul 25, 2012, 11:34 AM
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Re: [USnavy] When it it safe to be the most experienced climber in a group? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
...until you fall on a piece of gear, you dont know for certain it will hold.

So only the pieces you fell on held. The others were shit as far as you know. How does that tell you that any one piece will hold.

Yes, statistically, 300 falls might be a good enough sample to make you confident that you are placing gear well or falling too often. On the other hand, who falls 300 times on trad gear? I don't think that statistics is the way to go in measuring a persons ability to place gear. I prefer to measure their intelligence instead.

I have only fallen on trad gear once in ten years. It held. What does that tell you about my ability to place gear?

And it was an Alien so it holding was actually a bit of a miracle.

Dave


csproul


Jul 25, 2012, 11:42 AM
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Re: [drector] When it it safe to be the most experienced climber in a group? [In reply to]
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drector wrote:
USnavy wrote:
...until you fall on a piece of gear, you dont know for certain it will hold.

So only the pieces you fell on held. The others were shit as far as you know. How does that tell you that any one piece will hold.

Yes, statistically, 300 falls might be a good enough sample to make you confident that you are placing gear well or falling too often. On the other hand, who falls 300 times on trad gear? I don't think that statistics is the way to go in measuring a persons ability to place gear. I prefer to measure their intelligence instead.

I have only fallen on trad gear once in ten years. It held. What does that tell you about my ability to place gear?

And it was an Alien so it holding was actually a bit of a miracle.

Dave
Dave, I hate to agree with USNavy, but this time, he is kind of right. Falling on one piece of gear over 10 years tells us nothing about your ability to place good gear. Maybe you're good at it, maybe you got lucky. Until you fall on your gear it's all theory. IMO, the best way to evaluate your gear is to aid on it. I'd be pretty confident that a first year climber who had taken 100's of gear falls and not pulled any of them is probably pretty proficient at placing good gear. And what exactly does this mean:
drector wrote:
I don't think that statistics is the way to go in measuring a persons ability to place gear. I prefer to measure their intelligence instead

WTF, do you whip out an IQ test for new trad climbers? You make it sound like placing good gear is rocket science...I assure you that it is not. It just takes practice and hopefully some testing in a controlled setting.


(This post was edited by csproul on Jul 25, 2012, 11:44 AM)


Partner drector


Jul 25, 2012, 11:44 AM
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USnavy wrote:
I dont care how high your IQ is or how many times you scored a 36 on the ACT...

I forgot to add that you should care about the IQ of the person you climb with. Stupid people don't make good belayers. I won't climb with someone whose IQ is below average. At least a little intelligence increases the odds that the untested piece is going to hold (since we are using statistics to determine trad safety now).

Dave


csproul


Jul 25, 2012, 12:08 PM
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drector wrote:
USnavy wrote:
I dont care how high your IQ is or how many times you scored a 36 on the ACT...

I forgot to add that you should care about the IQ of the person you climb with. Stupid people don't make good belayers. I won't climb with someone whose IQ is below average. At least a little intelligence increases the odds that the untested piece is going to hold (since we are using statistics to determine trad safety now).

Dave

I dunno...I've met some not so intelligent people that were pretty damn good climbers. Not that I'd particularly like to climb with them, but that has nothing to do with their ability to climb and place good gear.

Besides, you're misrepresenting what he said. He said that your IQ or ACT score or whatever has no bearing on how well you place good gear...and he's mostly right. He never said anything about their ability to belay or do anything else.

IQ below average? 50% of everyone has an IQ below average...and of course nobody thinks that they fall in that 50%.


USnavy


Jul 25, 2012, 12:53 PM
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cracklover wrote:
USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you're remembering it wrong. I can think of a couple accidents in recent history, both at the Creek, both with very clear reasons for the gear pulling. Not perfect placements of mid-sized cams in good rock.

GO
Nope, it was not at IC. It was at some limestone crag. Apparently the pieces ripped partly because there was a very thin layer of some mossy type crap in the cracks which transferred over onto the cam lobes. The OP posted pictures of the cams and the route in his thread.


USnavy


Jul 25, 2012, 12:57 PM
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drector wrote:
USnavy wrote:
I dont care how high your IQ is or how many times you scored a 36 on the ACT...

I forgot to add that you should care about the IQ of the person you climb with. Stupid people don't make good belayers. I won't climb with someone whose IQ is below average. At least a little intelligence increases the odds that the untested piece is going to hold (since we are using statistics to determine trad safety now).

Dave
Indeed, but I guess my point is that only a dumb person would think they are too intelligent to get hurt. It does not matter how smart you are, or how experienced you are, climbing is dangerous and you can rip some pieces and die. Everyone makes mistakes, even the best of the best, and those mistakes can land you in the grave, that is just how it goes. So indeed someone may be smart, but to think you are too smart to get injured is foolish.

Also, a high IQ does not make you a good or competent climber. I know someone with a master's degree in mathematics from a top college, and he is reckless, he does not anticipate the consequences of his actions, and he is overall a dangerous climber. Likewise I know people who are not so smart, but they do what they were taught by experienced climbers, so they climb safely.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 25, 2012, 1:00 PM)


Partner cracklover


Jul 25, 2012, 1:10 PM
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USnavy wrote:
stagg54 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, the number of years you have been climbing is not necessarily an accurate indicator of your experience. Let me back this with an example. You got some kid that has only been climbing a year. But in that year he has climbed 300 days, and 2,500 routes. You have a dude that has been climbing for three years. But he only climbs two weekends a month, and he only gets in a few easy pitches per day. Who is more experienced? This notion can also be extended to trad climbing where experience is more accurately measured by how many falls you have taken on gear than by how many years you have been plugging pro. I mean who do you think knows more about making solid placements, the kid that has only been climbing trad for two years, but has taken 300 lead falls on cams, or the old man who has been climbing trad forever, but never climbs harder than 5.8 and never falls on or weights his placements?

Experience in trad climbing is about mileage, not about falling. In fact the words trad climbing and falling don't really go together at all. That's from people bringing a sport climbing mentality to trad climbing and its just all wrong.
Yes and no. Millage is very important, but that only goes so far. First, lets consider the entire point of trad climbing. Why do we place pro on a trad climb? Because we want it to arrest a fall, should we fall. So how could someone who has never actually tested a piece of gear possibly be more qualified than someone who tests it all the time? At the end of the day, you can climb trad every day of ever year, but until you actually fall on a piece, its just a guess as to whether it will hold or not. Falling on pieces often and verifying they hold confirms that you have the appropriate skill set required to place good pro.

Now, I agree that taking whips on gear left and right is not a good idea for most people. But there are plenty of people out there who successfully do it, and those who do have much more experience confirming their placements are solid than the rest of us do. Again, I am not saying that you should just throw yourself into pieces all day, nor am I saying that if you dont fall you are not a qualified trad climber. I am simply saying that those who fall often are those who have actually confirmed their placements work.

I agree with everything in your post above, but... you're still missing a very important point, and it's the fact that you don't want to acknowledge this point that is the reason why you're getting so much flak in this thread:

There are two halves to this point.

1 - No matter how good you are at placing it, falling on trad gear is always a gamble. Being very good at placing it simply tips the odds more in your favor.

2 - When the stakes of that gamble are severe injury or worse, rolling those dice is a gamble that should be indulged in to a minimum, if you want to have a long and a healthy climbing career.

Failing to acknowledge those points as you do, you appear to be denying them. And that puts you in what many see as a very dangerous camp - those who bring a sport climbing mentality to trad. An attitude that is at odds with the history and meaning of the discipline.

And that attitude is not just about history. It's about simple self preservation in the game of traditional climbing. And if you don't take responsibility for your own safety, you are the enemy of the very heart of traditional climbing.

GO


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Jul 25, 2012, 1:18 PM
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USnavy wrote:
cracklover wrote:
USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you're remembering it wrong. I can think of a couple accidents in recent history, both at the Creek, both with very clear reasons for the gear pulling. Not perfect placements of mid-sized cams in good rock.

GO
Nope, it was not at IC. It was at some limestone crag. Apparently the pieces ripped partly because there was a very thin layer of some mossy type crap in the cracks which transferred over onto the cam lobes. The OP posted pictures of the cams and the route in his thread.

I think that was chossmonkey. Anyone know where the thread is?

GO


caughtinside


Jul 25, 2012, 2:43 PM
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cracklover wrote:
USnavy wrote:
cracklover wrote:
USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you're remembering it wrong. I can think of a couple accidents in recent history, both at the Creek, both with very clear reasons for the gear pulling. Not perfect placements of mid-sized cams in good rock.

GO
Nope, it was not at IC. It was at some limestone crag. Apparently the pieces ripped partly because there was a very thin layer of some mossy type crap in the cracks which transferred over onto the cam lobes. The OP posted pictures of the cams and the route in his thread.

I think that was chossmonkey. Anyone know where the thread is?

GO

Oh is that the one? I think it was good rock, but the rock was moist limestone.


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Jul 26, 2012, 6:03 AM
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Found it.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1708704#1708704

GO


Kartessa


Jul 26, 2012, 6:17 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
USnavy wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
USnavy wrote:


There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.
Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Who ever it was probably tore a huge hole in their patagucci boxers and still has a scar on their ass.

Sly


lkeegan


Jul 26, 2012, 11:43 AM
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This was kind of touched on but being able to manage a group if you're the most experienced one is key. If its just you and one other equally in-experienced person, its much easier to be the "leader" if its you and 5 other in-experienced people you're going to have a lot more a gong show on your hands.

You can't be everywhere at once watching people unless you aren't climbing for the day which I often see beginners forget about. They want to go climb but they also want to take all of their friends so they set up a top rope and leave their friends to fuck around while they go lead hard things without paying much attention to the n00bs belaying or any of the other things going on.

If you want to be a trip leader, you have to keep in mind that if you're going out with a bunch of n00bs you're going to have to play rock climbing baby sitter to make sure no one gets hurt. You can't just throw up some ropes and then do your own thing.


Kartessa


Jul 26, 2012, 12:05 PM
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lkeegan wrote:
This was kind of touched on but being able to manage a group if you're the most experienced one is key. If its just you and one other equally in-experienced person, its much easier to be the "leader" if its you and 5 other in-experienced people you're going to have a lot more a gong show on your hands.

You can't be everywhere at once watching people unless you aren't climbing for the day which I often see beginners forget about. They want to go climb but they also want to take all of their friends so they set up a top rope and leave their friends to fuck around while they go lead hard things without paying much attention to the n00bs belaying or any of the other things going on.

If you want to be a trip leader, you have to keep in mind that if you're going out with a bunch of n00bs you're going to have to play rock climbing baby sitter to make sure no one gets hurt. You can't just throw up some ropes and then do your own thing.

I'd rather take my 4-year-old climbing than some of the idiots I've seen at the gym.


Marylandclimber


Jul 26, 2012, 2:11 PM
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After climbing outside for a month and still alive. :p


USnavy


Jul 29, 2012, 7:49 PM
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And there you go, I dont need to explain how good looking placements dont necessarily translate to actually good placements, Chossmonkey said it well.

Two seemingly bomber pieces between me and the deck are not always going to keep me off of it.

Cams in seemingly perfect cracks can still be trash, especially when the rock doesn't have excellent friction.



cracklover wrote:
USnavy wrote:
stagg54 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, the number of years you have been climbing is not necessarily an accurate indicator of your experience. Let me back this with an example. You got some kid that has only been climbing a year. But in that year he has climbed 300 days, and 2,500 routes. You have a dude that has been climbing for three years. But he only climbs two weekends a month, and he only gets in a few easy pitches per day. Who is more experienced? This notion can also be extended to trad climbing where experience is more accurately measured by how many falls you have taken on gear than by how many years you have been plugging pro. I mean who do you think knows more about making solid placements, the kid that has only been climbing trad for two years, but has taken 300 lead falls on cams, or the old man who has been climbing trad forever, but never climbs harder than 5.8 and never falls on or weights his placements?

Experience in trad climbing is about mileage, not about falling. In fact the words trad climbing and falling don't really go together at all. That's from people bringing a sport climbing mentality to trad climbing and its just all wrong.
Yes and no. Millage is very important, but that only goes so far. First, lets consider the entire point of trad climbing. Why do we place pro on a trad climb? Because we want it to arrest a fall, should we fall. So how could someone who has never actually tested a piece of gear possibly be more qualified than someone who tests it all the time? At the end of the day, you can climb trad every day of ever year, but until you actually fall on a piece, its just a guess as to whether it will hold or not. Falling on pieces often and verifying they hold confirms that you have the appropriate skill set required to place good pro.

Now, I agree that taking whips on gear left and right is not a good idea for most people. But there are plenty of people out there who successfully do it, and those who do have much more experience confirming their placements are solid than the rest of us do. Again, I am not saying that you should just throw yourself into pieces all day, nor am I saying that if you dont fall you are not a qualified trad climber. I am simply saying that those who fall often are those who have actually confirmed their placements work.

I agree with everything in your post above, but... you're still missing a very important point, and it's the fact that you don't want to acknowledge this point that is the reason why you're getting so much flak in this thread:

There are two halves to this point.

1 - No matter how good you are at placing it, falling on trad gear is always a gamble. Being very good at placing it simply tips the odds more in your favor.

2 - When the stakes of that gamble are severe injury or worse, rolling those dice is a gamble that should be indulged in to a minimum, if you want to have a long and a healthy climbing career.

Failing to acknowledge those points as you do, you appear to be denying them. And that puts you in what many see as a very dangerous camp - those who bring a sport climbing mentality to trad. An attitude that is at odds with the history and meaning of the discipline.

And that attitude is not just about history. It's about simple self preservation in the game of traditional climbing. And if you don't take responsibility for your own safety, you are the enemy of the very heart of traditional climbing.

GO
I never refuted those facts. I completely agree with you that trad is dangerous and you should avoid falling on gear when possible. All I have been saying is that those who do fall on gear are more experienced than those who do not. I gave an example of some kid who has taken countless falls on gear and I compared it to some old man who has been climbing on trad forever, but has never actually taken a fall. I said that the kid who whips all day is likely a better judge of good placements than the old man who places gear all the time, but never actually falls and confirms his placements are good. I mean, how are you supposed to know your placements are solid if you never test them? This is kind of indicative of the gym noob that hangs on every draw versus the guy who climbs until he whips. Which do you think is more experienced? That was my point. Falls get you experience. I never said doing so was safe or advisable, only that if you do play that card, you will learn a lot about what actually holds and what does not.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 29, 2012, 7:56 PM)


Guran


Aug 7, 2012, 4:51 AM
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Adding to all the other "it depends" here, it also makes a huge difference how experienced the rest of the group is.

Taking responsibility for a group of unknown noobs is something else than going out with a couple of friends who, while less experienced than yourself still know the basics.

It also matters how well the other persons understands your and their own abilities (or lack thereof)

If you are honest about yourself, saying for example that you feel confident enough to trust your own life with your anhcors but that they should/must use their own judgement before trusting their own with them, you are far less likely to cause an accident than if you assume the role of supreme instructor.

Thing is, you either climb in a client/guide relationship or as peers. If you climb as peers you constantly check each other, sharing responsibility for everyones safety, even if one has more mileage than the other. If you climb as client/guide, the "guide" takes full responsibility for the entire group which is a far more demanding task.

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Forums : Climbing Information : Beginners

 


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