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spikeddem


Oct 29, 2010, 9:31 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Sewing your own slings [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
Are you guys smoking crack? You think a full size truck is that light haha. Weight distribution is around 55/45 front/rear in a full size pickup. That truck weighs at least 5000 lbs. That means the back end "weighs" at least 0.45*5000 or 2250 lbs. 10kn minimum. That's for a empty, 2wd 1/2 ton. It's probably even heavier.

Full size truck? Nobody ever mentioned a full size truck.


jt512


Oct 29, 2010, 9:45 AM
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Re: [bigo] Sewing your own slings [In reply to]
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bigo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
So you've been toproping on slings that may be have less than 1/5 the strength of a normal sling. You must be proud.

Jay

I don't think his 'tr quality' sling failed. He is calling his homemade sling with more stitches the 'production' sling. The one that failed is a 40 stitch joint that I think he was testing to try and get a strength per stitch from.

I know. He's been TRing on a sling that he only (now) knows can hold 1000 lb.

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Not sure how comfortable you are doing a little math . . .

I think we can reliably guess the answer to that question.

Jay


bigo


Oct 29, 2010, 10:32 AM
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I read over the "may[ ]be have" part of your statement ... oh well, so much for reading comprehension.


gunkiemike


Oct 29, 2010, 2:10 PM
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Re: [gthomann] Sewing your own slings [In reply to]
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gthomann wrote:
So what I did was make some loops with just a small amount of stitching and test them using my 180 lb body (in the living room, not on the cliff). The attached picture shows a test loop with 37 stitches; it held my weight with no problem.

How many stitches does it take to JUST hold your 180 lb body weight? That's a key bit of info. Then sew your sling with at least 30X that many stitches.


Adk


Nov 1, 2010, 1:57 PM
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This has made me thirsty and my bowl of popcorn is almost empty.

Majid showed that you can rap on just a few strands of the core of dynamic rope but that does not mean I want to do it or that I should.

I don't think Gary is serious about going into the manufacture of slings. I think he is just bored.....or I hope so anyway.Unsure
I hesitate to say...Trolling???

If he is not he needs to stop taking drugs.LaughLaugh


Adk


Nov 1, 2010, 2:00 PM
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This photo is no good without MAJID's arrows!!!!!

Wait one minute!!! Are those truck tires really off the ground? Unsure I see no air. It must be the angle right?
Just busting your chops Gary.


(This post was edited by Adk on Nov 1, 2010, 2:35 PM)


crackers


Nov 4, 2010, 3:37 PM
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gmggg wrote:
russwalling wrote:
A bartack is NOT just a really tight zigzag. There is more to it than that. (note to self: do not feed the trolls)

Not trolling, I understand the stitch to be identical. I'd be interested to learn the difference if there's a resource you could point too or an explanation you could offer.

I think Google is a pretty good resource. Try googling something like Juki LK-1900 manual or similar. When you read the part in the manual about how the bartack is formed, you should start to get an idea about some of the differences...I'm sure if you paid Russ or myself we'd be happy to explain in excruciating detail, but I've got to hope we all have better things to do with our lives.


gunkiemike


Nov 4, 2010, 6:10 PM
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russwalling wrote:
A bartack is NOT just a really tight zigzag. There is more to it than that. (note to self: do not feed the trolls)

But that doesn't mean you need bartacks to sew a sling. Mammut used to sell dogbones that clearly are just rows of stitching. Not even zig-zag. Just straight stitches in rows: 25 rows of 7 stitches in the one I have. Rated at 22 kN.


el_layclimber


Nov 4, 2010, 7:49 PM
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Re: [gunkiemike] Sewing your own slings [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
gthomann wrote:
So what I did was make some loops with just a small amount of stitching and test them using my 180 lb body (in the living room, not on the cliff). The attached picture shows a test loop with 37 stitches; it held my weight with no problem.

How many stitches does it take to JUST hold your 180 lb body weight? That's a key bit of info. Then sew your sling with at least 30X that many stitches.

NO - not that I'm against this project, I see no reason why not to tool around with making his own gear as long as he exercises caution. However, I do know that one of the issues with sewing slings is that you don't want too many stitches - each time you push a thread through the webbing, you are displacing and possibly tearing the webbing itself - too many stitches, and you end up with a stitch that is strong, but you have weakened the material it is in.
On another note, didn't Dean Potter (whose intelligence I really appreciate) make himself a harness using supertape and dental floss for speed ascents of El Cap?


gmggg


Nov 5, 2010, 11:04 AM
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crackers wrote:
gmggg wrote:
russwalling wrote:
A bartack is NOT just a really tight zigzag. There is more to it than that. (note to self: do not feed the trolls)

Not trolling, I understand the stitch to be identical. I'd be interested to learn the difference if there's a resource you could point too or an explanation you could offer.

I think Google is a pretty good resource. Try googling something like [url=http://www.juki.co.jp/industrial_e/products_e/alldocument.html#products_e/apparel_e/cat87/lk1900a_lk1902a_lk1901a.html]Juki LK-1900 manual or similar. When you read the part in the manual about how the bartack is formed, you should start to get an idea about some of the differences...I'm sure if you paid Russ or myself we'd be happy to explain in excruciating detail, but I've got to hope we all have better things to do with our lives.

Well I took some time to look further into it since you don't have the ability to summarize the difference and I still fail to see what separates the two terms. Now I know I'm as dumb as a cantaloupe, but I can't seem to find any operating manuals for industrial bar tackers online(your link isn't complete). And what I did see is that the industrial machines are using a lock-stitch. Same as most home machines. So if the pattern is what differentiates zig-zag from bar-tack, what pray tell is the difference? I found the Juki stitch diagram here and I notice a line returning the stitch to the starting position, but it doesn't seem to lock in anywhere on the return.

Google I'm afraid may be fairly worthless since every page I've looked at has defined the bar-tack as a zig-zag.

Again, I'm not trying to prove anything, just curious about the subject.


Here's a full link to the diagram I found, RC.com seems to be inserting "%3D" into the url script for some reason:

http://www.juki.co.jp/...lk1902a_lk1901a.html


tugboat


Jul 19, 2011, 9:41 AM
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As others have mentioned a bartack is not a zigzag or vise versa....although they share some of the same stitch elements.

In basic terms a bartack is a 3 pass of a straight stich then the straight stich is captured by a zigzag over the top to the end....the end generally having a specific backstitch depending on how you program it.

A zig zag, by comparison is just that,...a zig zag stitch. Thus, it is missing the straight stitch component.

Bartacks are favourable in many climbing applications due to the fact that they put alot of strength in one area in fast (read production time) manner. As well, they are incredibly difficult to undo, whereas other stitches may have more propensity to start loosening or unravelling (but not neccessarily).

A bartack also combines two elements useful to strength stitiching; the straight component is considered a good "hold down" stitch, while the zig zag has expasion quailities. Although, in sewing climbing slings with bartacks, the expasion properties of the zig zag, don't really come in to play.

A zig zag stitch by itself has favourable properties, hence its use in certain safety sewing applications. Without the straight stitch component, the zig zag, under load, can expand an incradible amount if the stich is in the direction of the load or at least at 45 degress to it. If it is at 90 degrees the load it's expansion properties are generally negated.

The problem with one stitching their own slings in your case are many fold. Where to start?.... Lack of proper equipment (no you dont have to start with a bartacker), lack of knowledge of how to use said equipment, lack of knowledge of stitching (specifically safety sewing), lack of knowledge of materials and their interaction ot eachother,.....and most importantly,...lack of a good pull tester with load cell and data aquisition so you can understand whats going on with your differnet stitch attempts.

Remember also, there is more to safety sewing than just sewing, say, a sling and getting a good 'break number'. You need to know other dynamics of your product, stitch, and materials, to have a viable, useable product.

Anyway.... there is much more (years of learning) that one can go on about,....but i don't have enough coffee in me to bother too much more... Suffice it to say,... it takes years of learning and study (and even then there will always be people who know more that you) to get a grasp of safety sewing; Home sewing machines with blue jean needles and guessing at strength using Truck weight etc is not a good way to start.

Start by buying a copy of the "Parachute manual....a technical treaties on....", buying an indutrial striaght stitch machine for a couple hundred bucks,...and find a shop (marine, rigging supply shop) that is willing to break your many samples before you even think of climbing on them...

Just my opinion coming from 20 years of sewing for the safety industry. I own a Juki programable tacker, pfaff 138 zig zag, consew long arm 3 step zig zag with servo control, sunstar heavy needle feed, Sunstar
In reply to:
open arm needle feed binding attachment machine, Yakumo saddle machine (open arm), 18 foot enginered testing bed with sensotronic load cell and digital data aquistion, and a harness testing torso for the pull tester,....as well i work with pure spectra webbing, spectra and nylon broadcloths, and spectra and nylon thread.

peace.
In reply to:


(This post was edited by tugboat on Jul 19, 2011, 9:52 AM)


tugboat


Jul 21, 2011, 11:05 PM
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if you need more clarification on bartacking and different safety sewing, i don't mind attempting to help clarify more ...to the best of my abilities. Note; the juki lk1900 is a programmable with a selection of built in different stitch patterns.... so just looking at the manual won't help alot.

People do get hung up on the term "bartack'...like its some sort of magical, 'dark art' thing. its not. it is a stitch pattern that uses lock stitches. bartacks can have many variations on the theme...

The thing to keep in mind when it comes to sewing in general and safety gear is " use the right stitch for the right application". Sometimes production process and time/cost concerns will influence the choice....but they should never sacrifice safety.

questions are welcome... if i have the answer i don't mind sharing. Knowledge = safety.

peace.


gunkiemike


Jul 24, 2011, 6:02 AM
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tugboat wrote:

People do get hung up on the term "bartack'...like its some sort of magical, 'dark art' thing. its not. it is a stitch pattern that uses lock stitches. bartacks can have many variations on the theme...

Nor are bar tacks essential. I have in my hands here a Mammut dogbone that is sewn with nothing but 24 rows of straight stitches. UIAA rated piece, says 22 kN on the label.


JimTitt


Jul 24, 2011, 7:45 AM
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gunkiemike wrote:
Nor are bar tacks essential. I have in my hands here a Mammut dogbone that is sewn with nothing but 24 rows of straight stitches. UIAA rated piece, says 22 kN on the label.

A black one about 3/4" wide? IŽve some of those and they are getting on in life a bit (18 years old) and we tested some of these the other day along with some other brands. 18,6kN made it the best weŽed ever seen for an old dogbone and interestingly inside there are white fibres which we though may be Dyneema. Last week we got some hybrid Nylon/Dyneema tape samples in and one appears to be identical. 25kN single strand.

Jim


tugboat


Jul 24, 2011, 11:46 AM
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Agreed.... bartacks are not essential. Indeed in several ways that are not ideal. But they do have favourable characteristics for both the customer (from the companies vantage/liability) and from the manufacturer's side in terms of production. You need a tacker with a large field if you want do a programmed 5 point riser type pattern. Or if you want to do the riser pattern and dont have a capable tacker you would have to do it by hand.

But in terms of pure load dispertion and fabric integrity a 3 or 4 point riser stitch or just the straight row stitches (given narrow webbing) is technically better (if you weed out specific other factors that donbt have to do with strength). Spectra fiber might introduce exceptions to this rule, given its low coeffcient of friction,....thus a tack is nice to lock up that warp and weft tight.

Sewing the slings by something other than a tacker is time consuming and may, i repeat 'may', lack the quality control of a tack. One can get a single tack machine, get a jig built and be off to the races (well, not quyite that easy, you get the drift). It takes more skill to learn good 'riser' type sewing vs tacking in my opinion. And therefore it takes more teaching/learning for the company.

I think if people wonder about the commonality of the bartack, it may help to know that it orginallly came from the blue jean industry/ garment industry (correct me if i'm wrong...but quite sure im correct), and then was picked up by the climbing community for its production qualities.

Indeed, my first mechanical tacker was for the garment industry that ran a cam for pattern. Then you received the machine and had to "tweak" it for climbing sewing; decrese rpm (new clutch/motor pulley diameter, enlarge needle plate hole, bigger needle, retime cam, etc). The new electronic tackers are a Godsend. But the old tackers sure taught you alot whether you liked it or not!Tongue


(This post was edited by tugboat on Jul 26, 2011, 12:08 PM)


gmggg


Jul 26, 2011, 9:13 AM
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Thanks for the info! That's exactly what I was thinking but couldn't find any good resources at hand.

Very educational.


tugboat


Jul 26, 2011, 12:11 PM
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tugboat wrote:
Agreed.... bartacks are not essential. Indeed in several ways that are not ideal. But they do have favourable characteristics for both the customer (from the companies vantage/liability) and from the manufacturer's side in terms of production. You need a tacker with a large field if you want do a programmed 5 point riser type pattern. Or if you want to do the riser pattern and dont have a capable tacker you would have to do it by hand.

But in terms of pure load dispertion and fabric integrity a 3 or 4 point riser stitch or just the straight row stitches (given narrow webbing) is technically better (if you weed out specific other factors that donbt have to do with strength). Spectra fiber might introduce exceptions to this rule, given its low coeffcient of friction,....thus a tack is nice to lock up that warp and weft tight.

Sewing the slings by something other than a tacker is time consuming and may, i repeat 'may', lack the quality control of a tack. One can get a single tack machine, get a jig built and be off to the races (well, not quyite that easy, you get the drift). It takes more skill to learn good 'riser' type sewing vs tacking in my opinion. And therefore it takes more teaching/learning for the company.

I think if people wonder about the commonality of the bartack, it may help to know that it orginallly came from the blue jean industry/ garment industry (correct me if i'm wrong...but quite sure im correct), and then was picked up by the climbing community for its production qualities.

Indeed, my first mechanical tacker was for the garment industry that ran a cam for pattern. Then you received the machine and had to "tweak" it for climbing sewing; decrese rpm (new clutch/motor pulley diameter, enlarge needle plate hole, bigger needle, retime cam, etc). The new electronic tackers are a Godsend. But the old tackers sure taught you alot whether you liked it or not!Tongue

Sorry.... for the 'riser' pattern i meant you DO need a large field tacker....

and "sewing it by hand"....i meant straight stitch machine sew...not actually actually "by hands"!...

sorry about that, must have been late that night.


Rmsyll2


Aug 2, 2011, 8:42 PM
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I read this thread not long after it started, found a mention of using the X-Box that I knew from parachute rigging, and sewed my slings from 1" tubular, bought at $0.60/foot exactly to save money, using nylon upholstery thread. The box for mine is 4" long with a short stitch length, and the ends are doubled. I had bought a few slings (that do use bar-tacks), making a sewn one to match each of them, so that I've used one of each, or two sewn ones, with no problems during a few hundred top-rope climbs.

Tying any knot in any material weakens the material at the knot, according to various respected publications. It also makes a lump, and leaves tails either flopping around or needing more knots and lumps. My sewn slings are kept in a flattened roll so that they store compactly and come out looking new each time.

.


tugboat


Aug 5, 2011, 1:37 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
I read this thread not long after it started, found a mention of using the X-Box that I knew from parachute rigging, and sewed my slings from 1" tubular, bought at $0.60/foot exactly to save money, using nylon upholstery thread. The box for mine is 4" long with a short stitch length, and the ends are doubled. I had bought a few slings (that do use bar-tacks), making a sewn one to match each of them, so that I've used one of each, or two sewn ones, with no problems during a few hundred top-rope climbs.

Tying any knot in any material weakens the material at the knot, according to various respected publications. It also makes a lump, and leaves tails either flopping around or needing more knots and lumps. My sewn slings are kept in a flattened roll so that they store compactly and come out looking new each time.

.

box-x pattern works fine too. It has its pros and cons over bartacks and other patterns.

There is usaully going to be a pro and con to each stitch pattern selected. eg the box x can possibly loosen more easily than bartacks. On the otherhand, it distributes force over a greater area of material using less stitch count....

If you have covered all the following steps, or are already a rated parachute rigger etc, excuse the following suggestion; its good to know for your box x exactly what they are worth load wise for a given stitch count/pattern. Otherwise your just guessing or estimating. If you dont have a pull tester, seek out a local marine shop that has one and is willing to do some breaks for you (if you haven't already). And while i know upholestry thread can be strong,...its not really a standard within the climbing sewing world. Either use 138 Nylon or is equivalent in parachute rigging standard notation...like size "FF" 8 oz, etc.


surfstar


Aug 5, 2011, 8:43 AM
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I'm a cheap @ss bastard, but at some point my time becomes worth money + add in my life on the line = I'll buy some BD nylon slings that can be found 20% off all the time and never have to worry.

But then we'd never have threads like this for entertainment. Homemade screamers - schweet.


splish


Jul 16, 2012, 12:25 PM
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A bar tack is a really tight zig zag, backed up on itself.

http://cyberseams.com/article/105109/basics/what_is_a_bartack_stitch.html

I could be wrong, but I am just going by what I learned at this site...


(This post was edited by splish on Jul 23, 2012, 12:04 PM)


splish


Jul 22, 2012, 11:05 PM
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Rudmin wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Gthomann, you keep saying the forces in a TR setup aren't much. I'm curious about the numbers you have for that. What forces have you observed?

I'd also be a bit surprised if it took a thousand pounds of force to lift the tail of a truck off the ground. Maybe if it was a pretty big truck with entirely too much junk in its trunk.

That truck probably weighs around 5000 lbs. If the centre of gravity was halfway between the front wheel and the hitch, he would be pulling up 2500 lbs. Since it's probably forward of that, 1000 lbs sounds like a very reasonable conservative estimate.

I have a full size SUV, with straight axles, and it doesn't weight 5000 lbs. The weight of any vehicle is on the door. The truck has no weight in the back. In high school, me and 3 other guys used to lift the back of Jeff's truck off the ground and turn it sideways in the parking spot. The back of a truck is ridiculously light!!!
Lift the engine, then I will be impressed. But I don't understand why this guy doesn't test it the same way UIAA does, put a wieght on it and drop it! find a porch or balcony or something. And a sand bag or some dumb bell weights!


gunkiemike


Jul 28, 2012, 7:57 PM
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splish wrote:
L But I don't understand why this guy doesn't test it the same way UIAA does, put a wieght on it and drop it! find a porch or balcony or something. And a sand bag or some dumb bell weights!

Hey folks, looks like we have a gen-U-ine UIAA expert here!!


splish


Jul 28, 2012, 8:40 PM
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gunkiemike wrote:
splish wrote:
L But I don't understand why this guy doesn't test it the same way UIAA does, put a wieght on it and drop it! find a porch or balcony or something. And a sand bag or some dumb bell weights!

Hey folks, looks like we have a gen-U-ine UIAA expert here!!

Any idiot could watch a few videos and read a few specs and figure it out Mike. Sorry it's too complicated for you "science teacher"


JimTitt


Jul 28, 2012, 11:15 PM
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Perhaps gunkiemike was making fun at your expense as the UIAA do not drop-test slings.

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