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madkiki


Sep 25, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Nuts for Anchors
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I did my first Trad climb at Moore's Wall in North Carolina and it was the first climbing area where they don't have bolted anchors like I see at other climbing areas such as Pilot Mountain.

Anyway, we trad climbed up Wailing Wall and when it was time to Rappel down I noticed that the anchor system was nothing but three nuts in a crack. I was scared out of my mind but at the same time I knew that I did not have a choice.

One thing I did not mention was that my glasses had been accidentally kicked off my face after first pitch and therefore could not see much after that. So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with. We did find my glasses after we were all safely on the ground

Anyway, I could not believe that the Nutty Anchors that are placed there instead of solid bolted anchors.

I get the impression that after so many people using this anchor it begins to wear-and-tear or some idiot could easily mess with the anchors.

One thing for sure, I am no longer climbing there.


billl7


Sep 25, 2012, 10:51 AM
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madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb at Moore's Wall in North Carolina and it was the first climbing area where they don't have bolted anchors like I see at other climbing areas such as Pilot Mountain.

Anyway, we trad climbed up Wailing Wall and when it was time to Rappel down I noticed that the anchor system was nothing but three nuts in a crack. I was scared out of my mind but at the same time I knew that I did not have a choice.

One thing I did not mention was that my glasses had been accidentally kicked off my face after first pitch and therefore could not see much after that. So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with. We did find my glasses after we were all safely on the ground

Anyway, I could not believe that the Nutty Anchors that are placed there instead of solid bolted anchors.

I get the impression that after so many people using this anchor it begins to wear-and-tear or some idiot could easily mess with the anchors.

One thing for sure, I am no longer climbing there.

On MP.com it looks like Wailing Wall is a one-pitch wall (never been there). Still, if someone in your party traditionally led then that person should be comfortable inspecting the fixed-gear anchors. So maybe it comes down to whether you are comfortable with the anchor assessment of whoever did the leading?

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Sep 25, 2012, 10:52 AM)


jeepnphreak


Sep 25, 2012, 10:57 AM
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madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb at Moore's Wall in North Carolina and it was the first climbing area where they don't have bolted anchors like I see at other climbing areas such as Pilot Mountain.

TRAD climbing trad stands for traditional climbing, you use cams, nuts, stopper, tricams, hexes ect. Then after the climb you remove the gear and use an another climb.

madkiki wrote:
Anyway, we trad climbed up Wailing Wall and when it was time to Rappel down I noticed that the anchor system was nothing but three nuts in a crack. I was scared out of my mind but at the same time I knew that I did not have a choice.

3 nuts are a ligit anchor stronger than you think. oh yes and it trad climbing, some times you have to bulid a gear anchor. Some times you dont have the luxery of bolted anchors.


madkiki wrote:
One thing I did not mention was that my glasses had been accidentally kicked off my face after first pitch and therefore could not see much after that. So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with. We did find my glasses after we were all safely on the ground

um so you need to get contacts or a croki for you self. . .

madkiki wrote:
Anyway, I could not believe that the Nutty Anchors that are placed there instead of solid bolted anchors.

yep trad climbing! I getting a theme here

madkiki wrote:
I get the impression that after so many people using this anchor it begins to wear-and-tear or some idiot could easily mess with the anchors.

Are you sure your climbing partners left the gear up top, or did they retrieve the nuts later? I dont know the route you where on so I dont know. But with climbing you better get used to checking the anchor to be sure its safe.

madkiki wrote:
One thing for sure, I am no longer climbing there.

If you must. . . more routs for me!


madkiki


Sep 25, 2012, 11:02 AM
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The Nutty System is left there by I assume the state park. It is not our equipment.


marc801


Sep 25, 2012, 11:07 AM
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madkiki wrote:
The Nutty System is left there by I assume the state park. It is not our equipment.
1. stop calling it a "Nutty System" - anchors consisting of only nuts, cams, or whatever combination are the norm in trad climbing, not the exception. However fixed nut anchors are pretty uncommon, so there's more going on here that you're not explaining.

2. Because of liability concerns, I'd be very surprised if the state park had any involvement what so ever with placing fixed anchors.

3. Don't use Pilot Mountain as a reference base for comparison to any other area.


madkiki


Sep 25, 2012, 11:14 AM
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Thanks for everyone responding. Most of my experience is Top-ropping and this was my first true Traditional climbing experience. Therefore I have a lot to learn.

Wish I had taken a photograph of the anchor system for all to see, that way everyone could help me out with this.


WesleyCalkins


Sep 25, 2012, 12:12 PM
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Ok so the route you are talking about is a great first trad lead. Good stances and lots of good gear to be had. I guide this route in 2 pitches just so I can see my client the whole time. A few things about this anchor that you are not mentioning. 1 is that it is not just some nuts off of someones rack left for others. These nuts have been made using stainless steel cables and stainless steel quicklinks. Also the cable is thicker than regular aircraft cable used on the nuts on your rack. A little history is that moores has a fierce trad ethic spurred on by a guy name d Tim Fisher. In fact this style anchor is called a fisher anchor. They are all over NC. The route space monkey at Rumbling Bald has this same set up. As well as the first 5.8 pitch of Safari Jive at Looking Glass. The one on safari jive is actually fixed number 10 hexes. Like others have said. Not all areas have convenience anchors like the one found at Pilot. In fact pilot is the oddity in NC.


madkiki


Sep 25, 2012, 12:19 PM
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WesleyCalkins wrote:
Ok so the route you are talking about is a great first trad lead. Good stances and lots of good gear to be had. I guide this route in 2 pitches just so I can see my client the whole time. A few things about this anchor that you are not mentioning. 1 is that it is not just some nuts off of someones rack left for others. These nuts have been made using stainless steel cables and stainless steel quicklinks. Also the cable is thicker than regular aircraft cable used on the nuts on your rack. A little history is that moores has a fierce trad ethic spurred on by a guy name d Tim Fisher. In fact this style anchor is called a fisher anchor. They are all over NC. The route space monkey at Rumbling Bald has this same set up. As well as the first 5.8 pitch of Safari Jive at Looking Glass. The one on safari jive is actually fixed number 10 hexes. Like others have said. Not all areas have convenience anchors like the one found at Pilot. In fact pilot is the oddity in NC.

Thanks for responding and clearing things up. It's good to hear what you just said, and I feel much better.

Since my Glasses were accidentally kicked off I could not see well enough to get a closer look, but I could tell that the cables were heavy duty.

It's good to learn new things everyday.


csproul


Sep 25, 2012, 12:24 PM
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madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb at Moore's Wall in North Carolina and it was the first climbing area where they don't have bolted anchors like I see at other climbing areas such as Pilot Mountain.

Anyway, we trad climbed up Wailing Wall and when it was time to Rappel down I noticed that the anchor system was nothing but three nuts in a crack. I was scared out of my mind but at the same time I knew that I did not have a choice.

One thing I did not mention was that my glasses had been accidentally kicked off my face after first pitch and therefore could not see much after that. So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with. We did find my glasses after we were all safely on the ground

Anyway, I could not believe that the Nutty Anchors that are placed there instead of solid bolted anchors.

I get the impression that after so many people using this anchor it begins to wear-and-tear or some idiot could easily mess with the anchors.

One thing for sure, I am no longer climbing there.
Some points:

If you can't evaluate the nuts that you rapped off of, how did you evaluate the gear that you used to protect the climb?

If you were unsure of the rap anchor, why did you not back it up?

There is another rap anchor a short walk away at the top of Quakerstate.

There is also a walk off (not done very often).

The anchors are not maintained by the State. They are placed and maintained by a number of regular climbers who do so using their own time and $$. And they do it in a manner consistent with the climbing character at Moores.

Moore's is a traditional crag with a rich history. Like it or not (and many do not) that history often excludes permanent bolted anchors, although there are several. This means there are several natural anchors, sling anchors, and anchors with swaged protection, just like the one you encountered.It is YOUR responsibility to assess all anchors and back them up or fix them if you don't like them. Your safety is not someone else's responsibility. Assessing fixed anchors is a requisite skill to climb all over the country and the rest of the world. Better to learn how to do it now.

I hope you change your mind on the way to becoming a skilled and knowledgeable climber, but if you don't...don't let the door hit you on the way out. Many climbers, including myself, are glad that Moore's is not another Pilot and would like to see it stay that way.


rsmillbern


Sep 25, 2012, 12:28 PM
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marc801 wrote:
madkiki wrote:
The Nutty System is left there by I assume the state park. It is not our equipment.
1. stop calling it a "Nutty System" ...
.

kinda like "nutty system" :-)

In any case there are a few anchors made from stoppers at Moores and I have happily rapped of them.

In most cases I prefer that to the single bolt anchors that seem to be common here in Germany.

If you are trad climbing you should be comfortable assessing the anchors. You should even be checking to see if bolts are still OK, freeze/thaw or rockfall can create problems...


rsmillbern


Sep 25, 2012, 12:34 PM
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I'll echo csproul, don"t give up on trad climbing. NC has some of the best that I have climbed (I learned to climb at Pilot, Moores, Stone, table Rock, etc...)

Check out Table Rock for something in between Pilot and Moores Wall.


madkiki


Sep 25, 2012, 12:37 PM
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CSProul this was a real learning experience for me and I made the mistake of assuming that there would be bolted anchors up there. Now I know better.

You are right about responsibilities and sadly I dropped the ball here. If there is ever a next time I climb traditional style I will be a lot more responsible and have a better idea of what to prepare for.


louBlissab


Sep 25, 2012, 5:07 PM
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madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb...

So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with.

In my opinion, this sentence and your actions are just scary:

You tradded a route; you didn't get a good look at the anchors and you relied and trusted people you were with to make sure the anchors are safe!

"Three nuts in a crack", if well placed and equalized is considered a "bomber anchor". How good was your gear on the trad route your led, if you didn't realize that three nuts are considered a reasonable anchor?

With this kind of approach, you will not have a happy and safe climbing experience.

You must always inspect the anchors you are going to use. You should never soley and blindly rely on other people's opinions regarding anchors that you are going to use. You should determine for yourself whether or not anchors are safe or not, through learned experience and various anchor building resources, i.e. John Long.

Please seek qualified instruction regarding trad climbing and anchor building.


atpclimbing


Sep 25, 2012, 6:12 PM
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When did trad become a verb?


louBlissab


Sep 25, 2012, 6:15 PM
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atpclimbing wrote:
When did trad become a verb?

When sport climbing entered, as a form of climbing.


billl7


Sep 25, 2012, 9:34 PM
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louBlissab wrote:
You should never soley and blindly rely on other people's opinions regarding anchors that you are going to use.
Generally speaking that is a good attitude about this business. But I do precisely the above every time my partner yells down that I'm on belay and I break down my anchor and start climbing - especially when she leads harder than I can follow cleanly!

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Sep 25, 2012, 9:40 PM)


jt512


Sep 25, 2012, 9:52 PM
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madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb at Moore's Wall in North Carolina and it was the first climbing area where they don't have bolted anchors like I see at other climbing areas such as Pilot Mountain.

Anyway, we trad climbed up Wailing Wall and when it was time to Rappel down I noticed that the anchor system was nothing but three nuts in a crack. I was scared out of my mind but at the same time I knew that I did not have a choice.

One thing I did not mention was that my glasses had been accidentally kicked off my face after first pitch and therefore could not see much after that. So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with. We did find my glasses after we were all safely on the ground

Anyway, I could not believe that the Nutty Anchors that are placed there instead of solid bolted anchors.

I get the impression that after so many people using this anchor it begins to wear-and-tear or some idiot could easily mess with the anchors.

One thing for sure, I am no longer climbing there.

When did North Carolina become the new Pennsylvania?

Jay


curt


Sep 25, 2012, 10:30 PM
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jt512 wrote:
madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb at Moore's Wall in North Carolina and it was the first climbing area where they don't have bolted anchors like I see at other climbing areas such as Pilot Mountain.

Anyway, we trad climbed up Wailing Wall and when it was time to Rappel down I noticed that the anchor system was nothing but three nuts in a crack. I was scared out of my mind but at the same time I knew that I did not have a choice.

One thing I did not mention was that my glasses had been accidentally kicked off my face after first pitch and therefore could not see much after that. So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with. We did find my glasses after we were all safely on the ground

Anyway, I could not believe that the Nutty Anchors that are placed there instead of solid bolted anchors.

I get the impression that after so many people using this anchor it begins to wear-and-tear or some idiot could easily mess with the anchors.

One thing for sure, I am no longer climbing there.

When did North Carolina become the new Pennsylvania?

Jay

They seem to troll better in NC.

Curt


louBlissab


Sep 26, 2012, 6:06 AM
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billl7 wrote:
louBlissab wrote:
You should never soley and blindly rely on other people's opinions regarding anchors that you are going to use.
Generally speaking that is a good attitude about this business. But I do precisely the above every time my partner yells down that I'm on belay and I break down my anchor and start climbing - especially when she leads harder than I can follow cleanly!

Bill L

Hey Bill,

My point is still accurate and true. In fact, you yourself do not soley and blindly rely on your partner's opinion regarding anchor building.

You have climbed with your partner and vetted her anchor building technique to such an extent, as to feel comfortable to follow. You are both experienced and are familiar with each other and the routine.

However, the original poster and related partners are obviously very new to trad climbing and are unsure of the whole system and process.

I am suggesting that these people not rely on their buddies to confirm anchor safety. I am suggesting that they secure professional instruction or at least pick-up a John Long book and start reading before they head-out to the great vertical unknown.

AB


gunkiemike


Sep 26, 2012, 6:40 AM
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csproul wrote:

If you can't evaluate the nuts that you rapped off of, how did you evaluate the gear that you used to protect the climb?

The OP never said (s)he was leading.


marc801


Sep 26, 2012, 6:45 AM
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louBlissab wrote:
atpclimbing wrote:
When did trad become a verb?

When sport climbing entered, as a form of climbing.

That's when the noun "trad climbing" started, but only the clueless say they went "tradding" or they "tradded" a route (both nonexistent verbs) - it would be just as senseless to say you "sportted" a route.


gunkiemike


Sep 26, 2012, 6:46 AM
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louBlissab wrote:
madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb...

So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with.

In my opinion, this sentence and your actions are just scary:

You tradded a route; you didn't get a good look at the anchors and you relied and trusted people you were with to make sure the anchors are safe!

The OP got to follow their first non-toprope climb. That's a huge deal for most folks. Loads of shaky, sweaty-palmed, bug-eyed aspiring climbers do it each season. Expecting them to critique the fixed gear is asking way too much. The OP came back with a fresh appreciation for the complexities of the sport, and that's great. Hopefully they have a few photos too, as you only get one first time.


louBlissab


Sep 26, 2012, 6:52 AM
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marc801 wrote:
louBlissab wrote:
atpclimbing wrote:
When did trad become a verb?

When sport climbing entered, as a form of climbing.

That's when the noun "trad climbing" started, but only the clueless say they went "tradding" or they "tradded" a route (both nonexistent verbs) - it would be just as senseless to say you "sportted" a route.

Okay, I'm clueless, but I have been successfully tradding routes for the last 25 years and having fun. I will continue to trad routes.


marc801


Sep 26, 2012, 6:55 AM
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louBlissab wrote:
marc801 wrote:
louBlissab wrote:
atpclimbing wrote:
When did trad become a verb?

When sport climbing entered, as a form of climbing.

That's when the noun "trad climbing" started, but only the clueless say they went "tradding" or they "tradded" a route (both nonexistent verbs) - it would be just as senseless to say you "sportted" a route.

Okay, I'm clueless, but I have been successfully tradding routes for the last 25 years and having fun. I will continue to trad routes.
And people will continue to think you are a n00b for using trad as a verb.


louBlissab


Sep 26, 2012, 7:09 AM
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marc801 wrote:
louBlissab wrote:
marc801 wrote:
louBlissab wrote:
atpclimbing wrote:
When did trad become a verb?

When sport climbing entered, as a form of climbing.

That's when the noun "trad climbing" started, but only the clueless say they went "tradding" or they "tradded" a route (both nonexistent verbs) - it would be just as senseless to say you "sportted" a route.

Okay, I'm clueless, but I have been successfully tradding routes for the last 25 years and having fun. I will continue to trad routes.
And people will continue to think you are a n00b for using trad as a verb.


Frankly, I don't give a damn what people think of me. I'm not climbing to impress and I will continue to trad and enjoy the lifestyle.


csproul


Sep 26, 2012, 7:29 AM
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gunkiemike wrote:
csproul wrote:

If you can't evaluate the nuts that you rapped off of, how did you evaluate the gear that you used to protect the climb?

The OP never said (s)he was leading.
No, you're right, they didn't. So that likely places the new follower in a position where s/he is relying on their leader to asses the quality of the gear and anchor while on the climb. This also means that this new follower is relying on their leader to assess the quality of the rappel anchor. Nothing particularly wrong with that, most all of us had to do this at one time. But, the bottom line is that this climber is still responsible for their own safety. If s/he is unsure about the rappel anchor, then they should not have used it as is. If you do not like the rap anchor, back it up. Leave gear if you have to. Find another way down. There are situations where this might be impractical, but this is not one of them. I know the area and the anchor well.

What this really boils down to is a noob trad climber in an area that does not embrace bolted permanent anchors, who unnecessarily freaked out over a somewhat unconventional but very solid anchor. S/he was unable to assess the quality of the anchor and we got the OP instead of their admitting this and trying to learn those skills. I am glad to see that this thread has possibly shed some light on the situation for the OP and that maybe they now understand Moore's and traditional climbing a little better. I hope they continue down this path and find it as rewarding as I have.


csproul


Sep 26, 2012, 7:49 AM
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curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
madkiki wrote:
I did my first Trad climb at Moore's Wall in North Carolina and it was the first climbing area where they don't have bolted anchors like I see at other climbing areas such as Pilot Mountain.

Anyway, we trad climbed up Wailing Wall and when it was time to Rappel down I noticed that the anchor system was nothing but three nuts in a crack. I was scared out of my mind but at the same time I knew that I did not have a choice.

One thing I did not mention was that my glasses had been accidentally kicked off my face after first pitch and therefore could not see much after that. So, I did not get a very good look at the anchors and had to trust the people that I was with. We did find my glasses after we were all safely on the ground

Anyway, I could not believe that the Nutty Anchors that are placed there instead of solid bolted anchors.

I get the impression that after so many people using this anchor it begins to wear-and-tear or some idiot could easily mess with the anchors.

One thing for sure, I am no longer climbing there.

When did North Carolina become the new Pennsylvania?

Jay

They seem to troll better in NC.

Curt
I don't think so in this case. I'm pretty sure I was climbing not too far away from the OP at the time. I definitely heard some people come down that rappel anchor with panic in their voice.


billl7


Sep 26, 2012, 9:01 AM
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Re: [louBlissab] Nuts for Anchors [In reply to]
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louBlissab wrote:
My point is still accurate and true. In fact, you yourself do not soley and blindly rely on your partner's opinion regarding anchor building.

You have climbed with your partner and vetted her anchor building technique to such an extent, as to feel comfortable to follow. You are both experienced and are familiar with each other and the routine.
I'll concede that as mitigating. And yet "never" is just too absolute of a word.

louBlissab wrote:
However, the original poster and related partners are obviously very new to trad climbing and are unsure of the whole system and process.

Not sure I'll concede that everyone was obviously very new. Maybe that's been cleared up - haven't read all posts up to this point in time. My hope is the OP had someone experience who checked out the anchor before its use. If that is what happened, not being able to make the judgement yourself is indeed solely and blindly relying on other people.

Bill L


bearbreeder


Sep 26, 2012, 9:08 AM
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Re: [csproul] Nuts for Anchors [In reply to]
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Newbie panics on multi the sprays all about it on the intrawebs rather than ask the leader or other climbers quietly?

Better stick to being a toppu roperu tofu guy Tongue


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