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ben123324


Oct 8, 2012, 7:06 PM
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hey guys, new here. quick question. would you trust this line of cams? I don't have much money so i cant afford a rack of full name brand cams. would these do? they seem kinda sketchy...


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Oct 8, 2012, 8:53 PM
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What?


billcoe_


Oct 8, 2012, 8:55 PM
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ben123324 wrote:
hey guys, new here. quick question. would you trust this line of cams? I don't have much money so i cant afford a rack of full name brand cams. would these do? they seem kinda sketchy...

You have everything but the line of cams you are asking about. How about a hint?

Sounds like....2 syllables...


sungam


Oct 9, 2012, 1:50 AM
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Calling it right now as gear4rocks.


markc


Oct 9, 2012, 6:53 AM
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sungam wrote:
Calling it right now as gear4rocks.

This. Gear4rocks, the company that makes Rock Empire feel better about themselves.


milesenoell


Oct 9, 2012, 7:46 AM
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Ah yes, the Ukranian makers of plastic nuts.


ben123324


Oct 9, 2012, 1:05 PM
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sungam wrote:
Calling it right now as gear4rocks.


ding ding ding! sorry, messed up the link... but yea, how about them? any "good"?

and while i'm busy freaking people out with sketchy cams, how about rock empire? markc implies that they are 1 up from gear4rocks...


(This post was edited by ben123324 on Oct 9, 2012, 1:13 PM)


edge


Oct 9, 2012, 1:11 PM
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ben123324 wrote:
sungam wrote:
Calling it right now as gear4rocks.


ding ding ding! sorry, messed up the link... but yea, how about them? any "good"?

Well, if I was stranded on a desert island and that's all I had, I would probably prefer to tie off wedged coconuts.


billcoe_


Oct 9, 2012, 1:53 PM
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ben123324 wrote:
sungam wrote:
Calling it right now as gear4rocks.


ding ding ding! sorry, messed up the link... but yea, how about them? any "good"?

and while i'm busy freaking people out with sketchy cams, how about rock empire? markc implies that they are 1 up from gear4rocks...

Someone tested the Ukrainian Gear4rocks cams and they all tested better than advertised. HOWEVER, with so many better choices (think Metolius, Wired Bliss, BD Camalots) why get them? They do make the only plastic nuts, which work fairly well and are relatively lightweight.

Rock Empire cams, same thing, EXCEPT, in the larger sizes, say 4" and up, they are significantly lighter (and cheaper too) than Camalots. If you are considering a backcountry wide ascent, they're your Huckleberry.


JimTitt


Oct 9, 2012, 3:04 PM
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ben123324 wrote:
sungam wrote:
and while i'm busy freaking people out with sketchy cams, how about rock empire? markc implies that they are 1 up from gear4rocks...

They are a good budget cam, about on a level with the previous generation product from any "up-market" company. Good enough for a US company to re-brand and sell as their own product (and a few Euro companies as well).


ben123324


Oct 9, 2012, 4:51 PM
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i guess what i'm mainly asking is: would you climb with these? now that i've looked i see that other brands(like metolius) sell cams for just a little extra, but i'd trust them more.

on another note, for a 35ft trad route(college rock, MA), i know its short, how many cams should i get for a rack? ive taken a class on placing pro, etc. but i dont know how much pro i need and what range i should get for the cracks and pockets available. is there a general range for a typical granite face? i like the below route, and the crack is up to maybe 10 cm at points, down to nothing at others.

exercise left to the reader:http://www.rockclimbing.com/...h_morning_70298.html


billcoe_


Oct 9, 2012, 9:22 PM
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Yes, I have climbed on Rock Empire cams. My partner Ujahn has a set. That I own multiple sets of Metolius four cams, 3 cams units, 2 sets of 4th gen Camalots, a set of both Wired Bliss 4 cam units and 3 cam units, 39 Aliens, 2 sets of Totems cams, a set and a half of Metolius Supercams, a set of Trango Max cams, Valley Giants, sets of Wild Country Zeros, Flexible Friends, offset Friends, original friends and misc. other HB Yates, and even Clog cams should tell you something. When Ujaan brings his rack we climb on Rock Empires on occasion. He's embarrassed about this, but no matter, they do the job. Don't be falling on your gear till you are damned sure it will hold.

I would climb with them on a wall

I would climb with them in the hall

I would try them on the rack and I would carry them on my back

I would climb with the Rock Empire cams said Sam I am.

As far as leading the route you showed a photo of, are you fucking nuts? Seriously. Start leading long easier routes that take and place good gear. The short routes are more dangerous than the long ones. If you pop off, and there is a single piece or 2 between you and eternity: goodby. I once saw a fella fall and rip 4 good pieces and dirt out. The crying, wailing and nashing of teeth of his loved ones right by the unfortunate climber who had angered in at the base was beyond description. As was the smells of the CPR we gave, and the odor of Wheat Thins on the dead mans breath. And that route looked a hell of a lot better than the photo you just posted of that shit route. If you can toprope it why the hell wouldn't you do so? Looks fun on TR. The dead guy had no such options, for he fell 70' up on teh start of a long multipitch route...one that has good pro. Get some nuts and a mentor. Not joking on any part. Well, the Sam I am was over the top, but serious on everything else.

Good luck


olderic


Oct 10, 2012, 6:17 AM
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I've led that route. I know people who have soloed it. Not much difference. It is NOT a good lead especially for a new leader.


markc


Oct 10, 2012, 6:57 AM
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I own Rock Empire Robots and Micro-Robots. They got me leading on a budget, but I happily upgraded to Black Diamond Camalots after a season or two. As others have said, they don't have the finish of more expensive units. At least with Robots, I found the spacing of the cam lobes to be narrow in the larger sizes. (This isn't the case for all their cams.) That said, they're certified and I didn't have any safety concerns with them.


maldaly


Oct 10, 2012, 9:03 AM
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Listen to billcoe. He speaks wisdom.


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Oct 10, 2012, 9:05 AM
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olderic wrote:
I've led that route. I know people who have soloed it. Not much difference. It is NOT a good lead especially for a new leader.

Eric has much more experience than I do at College Rock (Eric, you must know nearly every square inch of rock there), but I've led a half a dozen routes there. I'd say that overall, they're not the best for a beginner leader. The gear comes when it comes, not necessarily when you need it.

Better beginner leads in the Boston Metro area (IMO) at Black and White Rocks, and Crow Hill.

GO


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Oct 10, 2012, 9:08 AM
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Isn't that the route Robbovious fell off and perma-fucked up his foot on?

GO


(This post was edited by cracklover on Oct 10, 2012, 9:15 AM)


Partner cracklover


Oct 10, 2012, 9:14 AM
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ben123324 wrote:
on another note, for a 35ft trad route(college rock, MA), i know its short, how many cams should i get for a rack? ive taken a class on placing pro, etc. but i dont know how much pro i need and what range i should get for the cracks and pockets available. is there a general range for a typical granite face? i like the below route, and the crack is up to maybe 10 cm at points, down to nothing at others.

exercise left to the reader:http://www.rockclimbing.com/...h_morning_70298.html

You need approximately the same rack for a 40 foot climb as for an 800 foot climb. Seriously. Only difference is that the longer one might have more of a variety of pitches. But in general, a pitch of climbing requires that you carry all the stuff you might need, plus a little extra.

GO


olderic


Oct 10, 2012, 9:20 AM
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cracklover wrote:
Isn't that the route Robbovious fell off and perma-fucked up his foot on?

GO

Wasn't that in Purgatory Chasm?

There are routes at College Rock that can be led somewhat reasonably - the route in question might even be one. But I still don't think it is the place for fledgling leaders. Gabe's suggestions of places to start pretty good. Nothing beats the Gunks in that department though.


Partner cracklover


Oct 10, 2012, 10:20 AM
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olderic wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Isn't that the route Robbovious fell off and perma-fucked up his foot on?

GO

Wasn't that in Purgatory Chasm?

There are routes at College Rock that can be led somewhat reasonably - the route in question might even be one. But I still don't think it is the place for fledgling leaders. Gabe's suggestions of places to start pretty good. Nothing beats the Gunks in that department though.

Re. College Rock - routes that can be led reasonably, yes. Good for complete beginner leaders... eh, maybe not. At least not the ones I did.

Re. Rob - maybe you're right, I'm not 100% sure.

And yes, nothing beats the Gunks for new leaders working through the easy grades. But there are also some reasonable small things around Boston, for folks not quite ready to make that leap.

GO


ben123324


Oct 10, 2012, 11:28 AM
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ok. i'll go find some better climbs at crow hill or something. the problem is that i'm 16 and have just a learners permit so i have to get rides everywhere. CR is a 10 min drive 1 town over, and crow hill is an hour.

honestly, i get your point. i've been working a 5.12 in my schools wall, and i had a belayer who's never done a second before. 1 draw clipped in. i took a fall that i wasn't expecting(slipped off a crimp) and luckily righted myself before hitting the ground 15 feet lower. mat helped...

anyways, that route is easy and i've done it enough that i know every crack, crimp and sloper on it. the picture doesn't show the route well enough though. there's a dihedral to the left with plenty of pro options. then the crack itself when you get there. i'm not saying it would be easy to learn and safely lead there, but it it definitely protectable.


wonderwoman


Oct 10, 2012, 11:54 AM
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ben123324 wrote:
ok. i'll go find some better climbs at crow hill or something. the problem is that i'm 16 and have just a learners permit so i have to get rides everywhere. CR is a 10 min drive 1 town over, and crow hill is an hour.

honestly, i get your point. i've been working a 5.12 in my schools wall, and i had a belayer who's never done a second before. 1 draw clipped in. i took a fall that i wasn't expecting(slipped off a crimp) and luckily righted myself before hitting the ground 15 feet lower. mat helped...

anyways, that route is easy and i've done it enough that i know every crack, crimp and sloper on it. the picture doesn't show the route well enough though. there's a dihedral to the left with plenty of pro options. then the crack itself when you get there. i'm not saying it would be easy to learn and safely lead there, but it it definitely protectable.

It may look protectable, but have you ever placed gear before? Please practice anchor building / gear placement on the ground before jumping on the wall. That's how most folks start trad. You are getting advice from some seasoned climbers who know CR very well. The 5.9 will always be there. I suggest leading it after getting some mileage under your belt.


(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Oct 10, 2012, 11:55 AM)


USnavy


Oct 10, 2012, 1:53 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Don't be falling on your gear till you are damned sure it will hold.
Talk about paradoxical circular reasoning... Falling in your gear is the only way to verify with absolute certainty that it will hold a fall, thus your statement is impossible. Speaking of which, why are you climbing in the hall?


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 10, 2012, 1:54 PM)


billcoe_


Oct 10, 2012, 3:42 PM
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olderic wrote:
I've led that route. I know people who have soloed it. Not much difference. It is NOT a good lead especially for a new leader.
I've never been there but thought the same just based on the photo. CLEARLY NOT A GOOD LEAD FOR A NEW LEADER.


maldaly wrote:
Listen to billcoe. He speaks wisdom.
Maldaly, the smartest most savvy guy on the forum just spoke:-)


USnavy wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
Don't be falling on your gear till you are damned sure it will hold.
Talk about paradoxical circular reasoning... Falling in your gear is the only way to verify with absolute certainty that it will hold a fall, thus your statement is impossible. ...

Not at all Navy. You can learn what a good cam placement is, what will hold and what won't, other ways:
1) Aid climbing will allow this kind of knowledge.

2) Follow any mentor and you will see what a good cam is. The more mileage you get the more you will learn. And as important, spacing and where to stand and rest while placing them.

3) Simply putting in cams in cracks and just yoinking on the placement from the safety of the ground while you wait for your buddies to burn a lap or 2.

As Wonderwoman says, practice is important. You can, of course, shorten that process up by taking classes or dogging a skilled leader and learn what a good cam placement is without killing yourself to learn it. Hey Ben, learn everything you can, grasp every opportunity to learn and every scrap of knowledge you can get. A lot of this info is better gotten from locals in your area, they'll tell you what is working and what isn't and it will increase your safety margin ten times over. I see your point about getting places, you can also toprope the short crack and put placements in while you do so. It will get you a feel for what the difference is and is a great way to start.

Best to all!


dr_feelgood


Oct 10, 2012, 7:22 PM
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It needs to be said...

Yer Gunna Die!!!!1


sbaclimber


Oct 11, 2012, 3:21 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
olderic wrote:
I've led that route. I know people who have soloed it. Not much difference. It is NOT a good lead especially for a new leader.
I've never been there but thought the same just based on the photo. CLEARLY NOT A GOOD LEAD FOR A NEW LEADER.
robbovius posted a couple of vids that show the whole route:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6yo7FGXXgM

After watching the video, will have to agree, doesn't look particularly good for a beginning leader.


jt512


Oct 11, 2012, 10:30 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Someone tested the Ukrainian Gear4rocks cams and they all tested better than advertised. HOWEVER, with so many better choices (think Metolius, Wired Bliss, BD Camalots) why get them?

So at least some of their cams were good. However, when I think of the phrase "has high standards of quality control," the phrase "manufactured in Ukraine" does not come to mind. I mean, they might be perfectly good, but how do you know? Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

If you decide to buy these camps, I would suggest not climbing with them until you've thoroughly bounce tested them, or better yet, figure out a way to test them to half their rated strength using a fuse.

Jay

*Other than the US.


rmsusa


Oct 11, 2012, 10:43 AM
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In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.


jt512


Oct 11, 2012, 3:01 PM
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?


USnavy


Oct 11, 2012, 8:35 PM
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jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?
Not much. The old Aliens were CE certified and I dont think I need to go there on how they should not have been certified for anything by anyone.


USnavy


Oct 11, 2012, 8:41 PM
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.
That CE stamp, and even the UIAA stamp does not mean much when it comes to quality control. Those stamps mean that the climbing product meets minimal strength requirements and a few other requirements. However, CE and the UIAA only test a few samples. In the case of ropes, the UIAA tests three ropes. Three ropes and you have yourself a UIAA stamp for that model - that's it.

In order to get a good measure of quality control, you need to test a reasonable number (say 1%) of samples from EVERY batch that is manufactured. Even then, it is possible a few bad units can go through. That is why companies like Metolius proof test EVERY cam they sell to 50% of its rated load before they let it leave the factory. Top notch overhead lifting equipment manufacturers do the same. They proof test every product to about 200% of its SWL before it leaves the factor. That is what is required for true guaranteed quality control.

Another indicator of good quality control is a 3-sigma certification that is verified every single batch. Because of how the 3-sigma formula works, in order to obtain a respectable 3-sigma breaking strength, the product needs to have a low standard deviation. Low standard deviations are really hard to achieve if a manufacturer has low quality control on their product(s).


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 13, 2012, 1:13 PM)


guangzhou


Oct 11, 2012, 9:20 PM
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I would love to know the full story on those Aliens. I have Aliens that were bought prior to those batches and still take regular whips on them.

Wonder what caused the big change over all.

The cams in Question, I trust them, but prefer my BD. I trust them because I have used some other people's and falling on them.

In climbing, you have to decide for yourself is you trust the gear. Even a Camelot isn't helpful if you don't trust Black Diamond cams for what ever reason. Trust is Psychological. If you don't trust the equipment, you won't climb well.

For the passed few months I've been taking loads of lead fall on quick-draws that are CE rated and not UIAA. I trust them, they are holding up great.


USnavy


Oct 12, 2012, 2:49 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
I would love to know the full story on those Aliens.
Well I dont know the "full" full story, but I know the important part. The important part is that the CCH postrecall Aliens had low quality control. Some people were falling on them and the maincable was pulling out of the head. The issue was that CCH did not have an appropriate solution for ensuring the solder fully penetrated its way deep into the head, which created a safe looking braze, but with critically low strength. If CCH would have done what Metolius does and proof test every sample, they would have caught that issue early on well before all those bad Aliens made their way into the market.


shockabuku


Oct 12, 2012, 8:08 PM
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jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?


guangzhou


Oct 12, 2012, 11:13 PM
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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
I would love to know the full story on those Aliens.
Well I dont know the "full" full story, but I know the important part. The important part is that the CCH postrecall Aliens had low quality control. Some people were falling on them and the maincable was pulling out of the head. The issue was that CCH did not have an appropriate solution for ensuring the solder fully penetrated its way deep into the head, which created a safe looking braze, but with critically low strength. If CCH would have done what Metolius does and proof test every sample, they would have caught that issue early on well before all those bad Aliens made their way into the market.

Again, I'd like to know the whole story. For years, CCH Aliens were fine, than all of a sudden, they were loads of problems. (Pun intended)


jt512


Oct 12, 2012, 11:51 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay


JimTitt


Oct 15, 2012, 3:40 AM
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jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

There is naturally enough a quality management requirement for CE marking, most companies using a combination of ISO9001 (or other) and an independantly audited internal QC system. This is a legal requirement under the CE marking directive.


USnavy


Oct 15, 2012, 4:58 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

There is naturally enough a quality management requirement for CE marking
Why not, I dident say anything incorrect. My proof is the CCH Aliens. They were CE certified yet just about everyone agrees they had complete shit quality control. I also recall being able to write your own CE certification and then testing your products your own standards. I think you mentioned that. Plus, it is well know that the CE logo is easily and legally defrauded. For example, you can put a CE logo on a box implying the item in the box is certified, but in fact the only thing that is certified is the box itself. Another example would be putting the CE logo on a product implying the product is CE certified for its intended use, but in fact it is certified for some bullshit non-related function such as non-toxicity.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 15, 2012, 5:05 AM)


JimTitt


Oct 15, 2012, 5:24 AM
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USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

There is naturally enough a quality management requirement for CE marking
Why not, I dident say anything incorrect. My proof is the CCH Aliens. They were CE certified yet just about everyone agrees they had complete shit quality control. I also recall being able to write your own CE certification and then testing your products your own standards. I think you mentioned that. Plus, it is well know that the CE logo is easily and legally defrauded. For example, you can put a CE logo on a box implying the item in the box is certified, but in fact the only thing that is certified is the box itself. Another example would be putting the CE logo on a product implying the product is CE certified for its intended use, but in fact it is certified for some bullshit non-related function such as non-toxicity.

If there is no standard for a product you can write your own, the QC part however is not for you to invent!
You other two examples show you lack of understanding of the system, along with the CE mark you have to put which standard it is tested to (the EN number after the CE mark) which tells you what itīs intended purpose is and to which standard it conforms.
You really think that the entire EU, itīs legal system and product certification system is run by people who are completely stupid?


jt512


Oct 15, 2012, 6:58 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

I guess I succumbed to confirmation bias.

Jay


Partner cracklover


Oct 16, 2012, 8:37 AM
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jt512 wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
jt512 wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
Would you trust your life to a product manufactured in a dysfunctional country bordering on Third World status?*

China? .... BD, Petzl, etc., etc.

I would any day as long as it has that CE Stamp.

What does it take to get a CE stamp?

Legitimately or illegitimately?

Legitimately. USNavy confirmed what I'd thought, that there is no quality control requirement for the CE stamp.

Jay

Youīre starting to trust what US Navy says?

I guess I succumbed to confirmation bias.

Jay

That being said, for US companies, CE really only has teeth to the extent the company plans to sell the gear in question in the EU. Otherwise, there is no enforcement the EU bodies could apply that would be meaningful to the manufacturer.

BTW, IIRC, CCH had a CE stamp that got stripped by the governing body after the whole shitstorm of popping heads went public.

GO


JimTitt


Oct 16, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Naturally enough, the CE system has no meaning or relevance in the USA, no enforcement and may even contradict your own national standards. It is enforced at the point of entry to the EU or thhe point of sale within the EU (and EFTA excluding Switzerland).
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans? Sly


Partner cracklover


Oct 16, 2012, 12:26 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
Naturally enough, the CE system has no meaning or relevance in the USA, no enforcement and may even contradict your own national standards. It is enforced at the point of entry to the EU or thhe point of sale within the EU (and EFTA excluding Switzerland).
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans? Sly

LOL. Yeah, just like we have a professional organization for climbers, one that analyzes accidents, does professional testing and statistics. Oh wait, here we do that on rc.com? Ouch.

GPirate


rmsusa


Oct 16, 2012, 2:25 PM
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In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

Well .... it's nice that the Euros pay for it. Here in the US, we tend to put our standards money into economically and systemically important stuff and leave the sports to whoever (if anybody) claims to run them.

To the extent that the EN norms are included in ISO, they're for international use by signatories. The US is a signatory and ANSI is a member of ISO. Here in the US we contribute some standards to ISO for stuff like networks, information interchange and medical equipment interfaces (I remember writing standards for computer graphics interfaces some years ago for ANSI and ISO). The Euros make valuable contributions for, say, wine and cheese origin labeling and the exact distance between soccer goals. Sly

In a global world, standards promulgated by an area with 500MM consumers have global effects. ANSI has similar effects on the Eurozone. I suspect that the majority of manufacturers have aspirations to sell in the world's largest economic zones, so they have no choice but to comply. ISO is the global attempt to make sure that standards aren't simply trade barriers and that manufacturers aren't caught up in a maze of conflicting standards. ISO promotes global, uniform standards. To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.

Given your background, I suspect you're familiar with the subject.


USnavy


Oct 16, 2012, 3:22 PM
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 16, 2012, 3:26 PM)


JimTitt


Oct 16, 2012, 11:44 PM
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

Well .... it's nice that the Euros pay for it. Here in the US, we tend to put our standards money into economically and systemically important stuff and leave the sports to whoever (if anybody) claims to run them.

To the extent that the EN norms are included in ISO, they're for international use by signatories. The US is a signatory and ANSI is a member of ISO. Here in the US we contribute some standards to ISO for stuff like networks, information interchange and medical equipment interfaces (I remember writing standards for computer graphics interfaces some years ago for ANSI and ISO). The Euros make valuable contributions for, say, wine and cheese origin labeling and the exact distance between soccer goals. Sly

In a global world, standards promulgated by an area with 500MM consumers have global effects. ANSI has similar effects on the Eurozone. I suspect that the majority of manufacturers have aspirations to sell in the world's largest economic zones, so they have no choice but to comply. ISO is the global attempt to make sure that standards aren't simply trade barriers and that manufacturers aren't caught up in a maze of conflicting standards. ISO promotes global, uniform standards. To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.

Given your background, I suspect you're familiar with the subject.

You are blurring the distinction between CE and EN which is a mistake. European Norms (EN) are widely integrated into the ISO as are ANSI standards, both being equivelant industrial standards systems.
CE marking shows a product conforms to the laws relating to those products in the EU member states. The two are completely different and always will be unless the US is going to start accepting legislation imposed on them by the EU.


JimTitt


Oct 17, 2012, 12:02 AM
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USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.


USnavy


Oct 17, 2012, 12:56 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.
So in other words the CE certification only guarantees the product is safe? What about the little kids toys that were CE certified but recalled for being unsafe? Or the CE certified automotive tires that were massively recalled after multiple premature failures? A number of CE certified products have been recalled for safety reasons.


guangzhou


Oct 17, 2012, 3:19 AM
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USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.
So in other words the CE certification only guarantees the product is safe? What about the little kids toys that were CE certified but recalled for being unsafe? Or the CE certified automotive tires that were massively recalled after multiple premature failures? A number of CE certified products have been recalled for safety reasons.

I think you answered you own question.


USnavy


Oct 17, 2012, 4:03 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
USnavy wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
You do have a national standards system for climbing equipment in the worlds largest industrial country donīt you, or donīt you bother and just parasitically use a system paid for by the Europeans?

To say that CE has no meaning in the US isn't quite right.
I never said CE has no meaning in the USA; however, I am saying it has no brand recognition. I am sure there are legal and technical meanings to the CE certification in the USA. However, the CE stamp does not insure that product works, it is a good product, or it is a safe product. There are thousands of CE certified devices in the USA that have been recalled for being unsafe. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of CE certified products in the USA that are complete pieces of junk that do not function as intended. Accordingly, I strongly doubt many American consumers pick up a CE certified product and say, "oh, this is CE certified so it must be a good product."

This is because the CE mark is not a gurantee of functionality or quality. For example a kiddies toy can be a completely hopeless, non-functional, badly designed and incorrectly assembled product. As long as it isnīt going to poison/cut/choke your kids it passes.
For quality and funtionality etc we use other systems for example in Germany generally the GS system (which is admittedly pretty low in its demands). In the UK the "Lion" mark is used to show the toy manufacturer adheres to the guidelines and practices of the manufacturers association.
What the CE mark means in reality depends very much on what the directive (legislation) was intended to achieve, in some cases the requirements are minimal, in others they covers just about everything one could think of.
So in other words the CE certification only guarantees the product is safe? What about the little kids toys that were CE certified but recalled for being unsafe? Or the CE certified automotive tires that were massively recalled after multiple premature failures? A number of CE certified products have been recalled for safety reasons.

I think you answered you own question.
No I dident. My take was that Jim was saying that CE certifies that a product is safe for use. I am saying that if products have been certified as safe before hitting the market, they should not need to be recalled. The mere fact that they do get recalled proves the CE certification does not tell us much; again, assuming the purpose of CE certifications are to certify safety.


JimTitt


Oct 17, 2012, 11:01 AM
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CE marking shows a product meets the requirements laid down in the relevant directive. Sometimes this is safety related, sometimes not. Car tyres are not subject to a European Norm but internal tyre standards from the industry. The CE marking on tyres as I understand it relates to these standards and the marking and sizing of tyres.

Products which are approved and certified as safe and later are found to be defective due to production errors or factors not included in the testing are reasonably commonplace, that products can be recalled under the scheme shows its strength as opposed to the US system of having to bring a group action and wait twenty years before a company is forced to admit itīs products were faulty.

The withdrawal of most via-ferrata lanyards recently is a good example of the system functioning, while the lanyards conform in every respect to the requirements recent events showed the requirements themselves were possibly not stringent enough and so approval of that type was rescinded while the standard is reviewed.


rmsusa


Oct 17, 2012, 1:34 PM
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In reply to:
You are blurring the distinction between CE and EN which is a mistake. European Norms (EN) are widely integrated into the ISO as are ANSI standards, both being equivelant industrial standards systems.
CE marking shows a product conforms to the laws relating to those products in the EU member states. The two are completely different and always will be unless the US is going to start accepting legislation imposed on them by the EU.

I sort of thought that's what I said. ANSI will often adopt ISO standards and vice-versa, at least they did when I sat on committees.

Doesn't the CE marking generally mean that the product complies with whatever EN Norms apply?

AFAIK, there is no certification anywhere that says something is safe. Am I wrong?

We have ANSI and EN Norms to say they meet standards as to physical characteristics, but based on spot testing, then we've got the whole ISO 9000 thing for manufacturing processes, even though that basically just certifies that you've got a document.

Is "safety" even a concept amenable to the kind of detailed specification required by a norm?

These are questions. You seem to be closer to the process than I am any more.


rmsusa


Oct 17, 2012, 1:49 PM
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In reply to:
Products which are approved and certified as safe and later are found to be defective due to production errors or factors not included in the testing are reasonably commonplace, that products can be recalled under the scheme shows its strength as opposed to the US system of having to bring a group action and wait twenty years before a company is forced to admit itīs products were faulty.

That's not exactly a good description of what happens in the US. The CPSC and a couple of other agencies in the US can remove products from the market. There are recent examples with childrens merchandise, toys and food. Most often, manufacturers, having been alerted in some way (often by being sued by someone claiming damage) voluntarily withdraw product. There are lots of recent examples in the automotive business.

We do have a tort system to handle damages and that's what class actions are generally about when an identifiable class of people has suffered damages. An individual still has the tort system available to claim recompense. It's certainly not the default way of handling things deemed to be unsafe.

I would love to hear about systems for determining safety in Europe and how safety is defined in a detailed enough way to write legislation. Can you point me to a reference?


JimTitt


Oct 17, 2012, 11:57 PM
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You probably know this anyway but ISO standards are international and in Europe we adopt them when required into the EN system. We can either use the ISO standard or more likely the adopted one which is then labelled ISO EN ..... (there are certain advantages in using the EN version, it will be in our language for a start).
The European Norms on the other hand are Europe specific and not adopted by ISO. There is discussion on the integration of ENīs into the ISO but this is at an early stage and may or may not occur, probably not in this or the next decade!
For the climbing standards you have to use the EN system as there are no standards under ISO, in their catalogue there is a category for mountaineering equipment (97.220.40) but no standards are available or published.

To obtain the CE mark the product must satisfy the requirements of the relevant directive, if these include one or more ENs then naturally enough these have to be conformed to.

There is no certification available in the world that says something is "safe", only that it is as safe as practicable, an airplane has a certificate of airworthyness but the only 100% guarantee of this is when it lands again.

The ISO 9000 family are a paper-trail quality management system, you also have to show you have an effective quality control system in place to use the CE mark (if you use an approved outside body to audit this then their code is written after the CE symbol).

Since the ENs are in general product standards safety is fairly easy to write into the system, both by looking at the theory (for climbing gear this is using the "safety chain" concept where the dynamic rope defines the forces applied on the rest of the equipment), by historic events (we see what has broken before) or by common sense (we look at something and say "you must be joking").
For climbing gear the two problem areas not covered are human intervention (so there is no EN for belay devices since to function they require human input) and durability. The durability issue is left up to the manufacturer but is under some review, it is understandably going to be very difficult to make a realistic standard to cover this especially with soft goods.

The two commonest exemptions from CE marking in climbing equipment are:-
Belay devices as without human intervention they perform no function and their performance is dependent on the operators performance. Some devices carry the CE mark such as the GriGri but this shows the notified body which oversees their QC system.
Bolts must conform to the relevant EN (959) but may not be CE marked as they are not `personalī protective equipment.


rmsusa


Oct 18, 2012, 4:35 PM
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That's a nice explanation. Thank you for that.

I sat on ANSI committees for computer graphics years ago, and our goal was always incorporation of our standards into ISO. Our concern was interoperability rather than life safety. I haven't been involved with standards for a while except for a couple of ISO 9000 certs.

Here in the US, we have NFPA for certain types of equipment and the Latin American governments that I sell to are starting to specify it more and more, but they'll generally be satisfied with CE. The military equipment I sell is tested by shipment and a test cert is issued with every shipment.


(This post was edited by rmsusa on Oct 18, 2012, 4:48 PM)


guangzhou


Oct 18, 2012, 7:30 PM
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Selling military equipment to Latin America, sounds like an interesting job.


JimTitt


Oct 19, 2012, 12:12 AM
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Military equipment is exempt from CE over here, partly because they have their own standards and because it isnīt sold on the open market (and their needs are often very different). There was some discussion a few years ago about selling military surplus without marking but Iīve no idea what happened about that!


rmsusa


Oct 19, 2012, 10:05 AM
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We sell outdoor and safety equipment related to fall protection (think climbing) and rescue all over Latin America. There are lots of military uses for the same stuff for mountain troops, helo ops, etc.


rmsusa


Oct 19, 2012, 10:12 AM
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The military stuff I was talking about is steel carabiners, static rope & such that's available in the civilian market. I've actually seen the US military demand the CE mark. Individual unit commanders can go to a store and buy things for their units (up to a certain amount).

The US military has given up publishing their own standards for a lot of stuff. For parachute gear, for instance, they depend on standards issued by the parachute industry association. The separate MILSPEC standards they used to use are slowly disappearing, even though you still see references.


ThunderMug2


Dec 10, 2012, 7:20 AM
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In response to how many to get... As a beginning leader, you'll probably place more gear than you will after you get your confidence level up. Shoot for every 6 feet if your sketching. It also depends on what your climbing. 5.4 flatirons I shoot for every 30 ft, but sometimes don't get one for 80 ft. You also have to figure what size your going to end up climbing the most. If you intend to stay on hand sized parallel splitters at indian creek, you'll need a whole bunch of the same size range. I like BD cams, so I have .3 through 4 in C4's and doubles from .4 to 3. Plus 0, 00, and 000 C3's. Usually only carry the 0 C3. Sometimes cary a full range of BD nuts plus two or three larger hexes to extend the range.

I placed toprope anchors at Devil's lake in Wisco for 2 years before buying cams and starting to lead trad.

Climb safe,
Kevin


ThunderMug2


Dec 10, 2012, 7:24 AM
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How about buying american made gear to support the economy.


sungam


Dec 11, 2012, 8:12 AM
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ThunderMug2 wrote:
How about buying american made gear to support the economy.
How about you buy gear made in the UK to support the economy I live in?


ThunderMug2


Dec 18, 2012, 10:46 AM
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Actually most of my money goes to Black Diamond, Metolius, CAMP, Petzl, and Grivel. If any of them made plastic nuts, I'd buy.


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