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Poll: Would you have consented to all this?
Yes.  I'll take a few dozen laps around the sun. 12 / 60%
Nope.  This is not the life for me. 6 / 30%
Pancakes...it depends...I don't entertain hypotheticals...INRT...etc... 2 / 10%
20 total votes
 

notapplicable


Oct 19, 2012, 3:06 PM
Post #26 of 42 (1189 views)
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Somehow I get the sense that this Aereogramme song would have been right up your alley: https://www.youtube.com/...eature=results_video

"Erase
Erase us
Erase this world"

Nah, I'm not quite that selfish. 2/3 of you seem to be enjoying your trip.


SylviaSmile


Oct 19, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #27 of 42 (1185 views)
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Re: [notapplicable] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Tagc wrote:
In reply to:
Just curious because I've never met anyone else who would have opted out, or at least a person who would admit to it.

Created this account to reply to this. A friend of mine who likes rock-climbing showed me this because it's similar to a discussion we've had quite recently.

I would very much prefer to never have been born. In fact, if you read David Benatar's "Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming Into Existence", he sets out a logical argument on why it's best if none of us were ever born.

I'd imagine the majority of people would not choose to opt out from having been born, if they could. What you have to bear in mind here is, that people are subjected to pretty major cognitive biases on this issue - namely such things as Pollyannaism (which biases our perception of how good our lives are in favour of optimism), but also in how they value existence with respect to non-existence; this is largely the result of natural selection (people that have a genetic disposition to favour existence will be the most likely to survive and reproduce).

Haven't read his book but I just checked out a few reviews and it sounds like his central argument revolves around (in one reviewers words) "an asymmetry between suffering and pleasure which makes nonexistence preferable..."

While I can certainly understand the argument, I don't know that I completely embrace it. Suffering is certainly an inescapable element of human existence but it can be profoundly formative and edifying. Cathartic even. Pain and tragedy helps to make life a full-bodied experience and I'm not sure it is something to be avoided at the cost of nonexistence. It doesn't weight too heavily on my particular scale, anyway.

My main objection is a little more personal. I don't like my overall lack of cerebral sovereignty in the face of instincts and emotions. I don't like the fact that I didn't consent to life in the first place and I especially don't like that I can't exert more control over my mind now that I have one. I find the lack of autonomy altogether unsettling.

It's not something that I feel all that strongly about though. I'm not running around, shaking my fist at the sky and cursing the day I was born or anything. Life is pretty distracting and it's easy to get wrapped up in. No major angst here.

It still intrigues me that it's THIS you pick as the source of your dissatisfaction with existence. Would you rather not have a body and just be a mind? Or would you rather have a body but no emotions attached to the having of that body--so no mediation between body and mind? I can kind of sympathize with feeling like life is a collection of accidents and that the person I am, and have become and grown to be, is largely not something I chose in any way. Something I try not to think about too long is why I was so fortunate in the circumstances of my birth, upbringing, etc., compared to others who experienced poverty, suffering, abuse, and serious wounding.

The latter mostly but emotions can be fun. A better ability to moderate them would seem appropriate but I don't mind them in the abstract.

Mainly it's the incongruity between my lack of consent, or even desire, to have this life and how compulsively attached to and concerned with it I am. Its just strange to care so much about something I never asked for. It's illogical and that doesn't matter. I find that odd.

Aha, so logic does come into it, after all! Smile Here is what I see. There are certain things the human mind must (and, unless there are impairments, generally does) take for granted, such as the principle that one cannot both be and not be at the same time and in the same respect. In fact, that's the major one. So if you find yourself in a line of thinking that requires that you both be and not be at the same time, you need to turn that ship around and sail somewhere else, because you're heading for a logical iceberg.

Likewise, another of those things we tend to take for granted is the value of our own existence. You don't need to go around proving it to anyone--you can just try to deprive someone of it and see how they respond. At the same time, you correctly recognize that your existence did not come about through your own action or volition. That can be another basis for further speculation, but it will only work if you can wrap your mind around the fact that you really couldn't have caused yourself, and start looking at the other options.


notapplicable


Oct 20, 2012, 1:24 PM
Post #28 of 42 (1172 views)
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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SylviaSmile wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Tagc wrote:
In reply to:
Just curious because I've never met anyone else who would have opted out, or at least a person who would admit to it.

Created this account to reply to this. A friend of mine who likes rock-climbing showed me this because it's similar to a discussion we've had quite recently.

I would very much prefer to never have been born. In fact, if you read David Benatar's "Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming Into Existence", he sets out a logical argument on why it's best if none of us were ever born.

I'd imagine the majority of people would not choose to opt out from having been born, if they could. What you have to bear in mind here is, that people are subjected to pretty major cognitive biases on this issue - namely such things as Pollyannaism (which biases our perception of how good our lives are in favour of optimism), but also in how they value existence with respect to non-existence; this is largely the result of natural selection (people that have a genetic disposition to favour existence will be the most likely to survive and reproduce).

Haven't read his book but I just checked out a few reviews and it sounds like his central argument revolves around (in one reviewers words) "an asymmetry between suffering and pleasure which makes nonexistence preferable..."

While I can certainly understand the argument, I don't know that I completely embrace it. Suffering is certainly an inescapable element of human existence but it can be profoundly formative and edifying. Cathartic even. Pain and tragedy helps to make life a full-bodied experience and I'm not sure it is something to be avoided at the cost of nonexistence. It doesn't weight too heavily on my particular scale, anyway.

My main objection is a little more personal. I don't like my overall lack of cerebral sovereignty in the face of instincts and emotions. I don't like the fact that I didn't consent to life in the first place and I especially don't like that I can't exert more control over my mind now that I have one. I find the lack of autonomy altogether unsettling.

It's not something that I feel all that strongly about though. I'm not running around, shaking my fist at the sky and cursing the day I was born or anything. Life is pretty distracting and it's easy to get wrapped up in. No major angst here.

It still intrigues me that it's THIS you pick as the source of your dissatisfaction with existence. Would you rather not have a body and just be a mind? Or would you rather have a body but no emotions attached to the having of that body--so no mediation between body and mind? I can kind of sympathize with feeling like life is a collection of accidents and that the person I am, and have become and grown to be, is largely not something I chose in any way. Something I try not to think about too long is why I was so fortunate in the circumstances of my birth, upbringing, etc., compared to others who experienced poverty, suffering, abuse, and serious wounding.

The latter mostly but emotions can be fun. A better ability to moderate them would seem appropriate but I don't mind them in the abstract.

Mainly it's the incongruity between my lack of consent, or even desire, to have this life and how compulsively attached to and concerned with it I am. Its just strange to care so much about something I never asked for. It's illogical and that doesn't matter. I find that odd.

Aha, so logic does come into it, after all! Smile Here is what I see. There are certain things the human mind must (and, unless there are impairments, generally does) take for granted, such as the principle that one cannot both be and not be at the same time and in the same respect. In fact, that's the major one. So if you find yourself in a line of thinking that requires that you both be and not be at the same time, you need to turn that ship around and sail somewhere else, because you're heading for a logical iceberg.

Likewise, another of those things we tend to take for granted is the value of our own existence. You don't need to go around proving it to anyone--you can just try to deprive someone of it and see how they respond. At the same time, you correctly recognize that your existence did not come about through your own action or volition. That can be another basis for further speculation, but it will only work if you can wrap your mind around the fact that you really couldn't have caused yourself, and start looking at the other options.

Naturally I agree with everything you've said. I'm not proposing an alternative paradigm here, or even trying to solve an existential dilemma, just expressing my dissatisfaction with the present one. Hypotheticals are, well, hypothetical.


dan2see


Oct 21, 2012, 9:22 PM
Post #29 of 42 (1157 views)
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Re: [notapplicable] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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This reminds me of a Kevin Costner movie. Two of them.


dan2see


Oct 21, 2012, 9:46 PM
Post #30 of 42 (1152 views)
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Re: [dan2see] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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By coincidence, I've recently joined a Philosophy Meetup Group.

Last week's talk was about "Consciousness and Ethics". The question was about how to deal with somebody who has no choice.

Next week's talk will be about "Do animals have conciousness". The crux is finding out how many neurons a creature needs to display consciousness.

As for me, I don't like hypothetical questions. It smacks of fantasy, and leaves me wondering, where are the borders of reason?

The OP's question reminds me that I often think about how me and my friends display "intrepid-ness" on mountain adventures. That means a persistent drive to face and overcome challenges. Of course everybody is different, so we display a spectrum of determination and focus.

But now the OP's question pushes that spectrum into the negative. That's where I get off.


notapplicable


Oct 22, 2012, 2:18 PM
Post #31 of 42 (1138 views)
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Re: [dan2see] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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dan2see wrote:
This reminds me of a Kevin Costner movie. Two of them.

Waterworld??

Ok. Seriously though. As a longtime cinephile, this intrigues me. Which ones? Mr. Brooks?


Gmburns2000


Oct 22, 2012, 2:48 PM
Post #32 of 42 (1135 views)
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Registered: Mar 6, 2007
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Re: [notapplicable] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
dan2see wrote:
This reminds me of a Kevin Costner movie. Two of them.

Waterworld??

Ok. Seriously though. As a longtime cinephile, this intrigues me. Which ones? Mr. Brooks?

The Postman and Waterworld. I'm sure damn near everyone who saw those movies wishes they had those four hours back, or at least contemplated you exact OP five minutes after the popcorn was done.


Gmburns2000


Oct 22, 2012, 2:49 PM
Post #33 of 42 (1134 views)
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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not gonna lie; i'm surprised that I'm the only "depends" voter thus far.


SylviaSmile


Oct 24, 2012, 10:44 PM
Post #34 of 42 (1115 views)
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
not gonna lie; i'm surprised that I'm the only "depends" voter thus far.

In that vein, where did the "pancakes" thing come from? My siblings were doing it all the time to my FB polls (yes, I know, but this was several years ago in my foolish FB usage phase) and I never got why.


camhead


Oct 25, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #35 of 42 (1106 views)
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Registered: Sep 9, 2001
Posts: 20747

Re: [SylviaSmile] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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SylviaSmile wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not gonna lie; i'm surprised that I'm the only "depends" voter thus far.

In that vein, where did the "pancakes" thing come from? My siblings were doing it all the time to my FB polls (yes, I know, but this was several years ago in my foolish FB usage phase) and I never got why.


Not to pat my own back while tooting my own laurels, but I think I was the first one on rc.com to use pancakes as a frequent poll option. This was in response to NICEPORCH's (you don't know me!) occasional rants about how he loved cheese, pancakes, and we could all suck on his penish.

Ancient history.


edge


Oct 25, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: [camhead] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not gonna lie; i'm surprised that I'm the only "depends" voter thus far.

In that vein, where did the "pancakes" thing come from? My siblings were doing it all the time to my FB polls (yes, I know, but this was several years ago in my foolish FB usage phase) and I never got why.


Not to pat my own back while tooting my own laurels, but I think I was the first one on rc.com to use pancakes as a frequent poll option. This was in response to NICEPORCH's (you don't know me!) occasional rants about how he loved cheese, pancakes, and we could all suck on his penish.

Ancient history.

If I find you a ride to the NRG this weekend, would you sign a pancake for me? I'll pay S&H.


camhead


Oct 25, 2012, 11:32 AM
Post #37 of 42 (1100 views)
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Re: [edge] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
camhead wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not gonna lie; i'm surprised that I'm the only "depends" voter thus far.

In that vein, where did the "pancakes" thing come from? My siblings were doing it all the time to my FB polls (yes, I know, but this was several years ago in my foolish FB usage phase) and I never got why.


Not to pat my own back while tooting my own laurels, but I think I was the first one on rc.com to use pancakes as a frequent poll option. This was in response to NICEPORCH's (you don't know me!) occasional rants about how he loved cheese, pancakes, and we could all suck on his penish.

Ancient history.

If I find you a ride to the NRG this weekend, would you sign a pancake for me? I'll pay S&H.

Aw, hell to the yeah. As long as you build a beautiful varnished Edwardian-styled wooden display case for said pancake.


iknowfear


Oct 25, 2012, 2:17 PM
Post #38 of 42 (1088 views)
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Re: [camhead] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
not gonna lie; i'm surprised that I'm the only "depends" voter thus far.

In that vein, where did the "pancakes" thing come from? My siblings were doing it all the time to my FB polls (yes, I know, but this was several years ago in my foolish FB usage phase) and I never got why.


Not to pat my own back while tooting my own laurels, but I think I was the first one on rc.com to use pancakes as a frequent poll option. This was in response to NICEPORCH's (you don't know me!) occasional rants about how he loved cheese, pancakes, and we could all suck on his penish.

Ancient history.
and I thought it was because pancakes are always an option...


notapplicable


Oct 25, 2012, 8:23 PM
Post #39 of 42 (1077 views)
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
not gonna lie; i'm surprised that I'm the only "depends" voter thus far.

I was initially surprised by the number of "No" votes but then I remembered this was RC.com Misanthropics "R" Us


dan2see


Oct 25, 2012, 8:52 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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Seriously though, I find this topic too bizarre to answer.

I know about acting in a situation that I do not consent to.
Also I know about suicide. That's unsettling enough.

But the OP suggests "opting out" at the beginning -- and not even trying to live. No! That's too much for me.

So I have to give up thinking about this. I can't.


USnavy


Nov 1, 2012, 3:17 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
This makes me feel kind of sad for you. This world is full of amazing people to meet, wonderful adventures to be had, and crazy feats to accomplish. I would not change a thing about my life, despite downright horrible things that may have happened to me in this lifetime. I would have consented to all this. Sure.


None of that changes the fact that protecting, nourishing, maintaining and entertaining this meat suit of mine is a pretty tedious and unrelenting enterprise though. One that I never would have volunteer for.
You know, if living is such a regrettable chore, you do have options to end the misery... I am just saying. But before you do, please send me all of your money. You wont need it when your gone and I can put it to good use.


SylviaSmile


Nov 3, 2012, 11:24 PM
Post #42 of 42 (999 views)
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Re: [USnavy] Would you have consented to all this? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
wonderwoman wrote:
This makes me feel kind of sad for you. This world is full of amazing people to meet, wonderful adventures to be had, and crazy feats to accomplish. I would not change a thing about my life, despite downright horrible things that may have happened to me in this lifetime. I would have consented to all this. Sure.


None of that changes the fact that protecting, nourishing, maintaining and entertaining this meat suit of mine is a pretty tedious and unrelenting enterprise though. One that I never would have volunteer for.
You know, if living is such a regrettable chore, you do have options to end the misery... I am just saying. But before you do, please send me all of your money. You wont need it when your gone and I can put it to good use.

Yes, you could take a grammar class.

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