Forums: Climbing Information: Beginners:
How long for most people to reach v6's?
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Beginners

Premier Sponsor:

 


Daggers


Oct 29, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #1 of 76 (9123 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

How long for most people to reach v6's?
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (9 ratings)  
Can't Post

So I just broke through the plateau i was on and i'm climbing v6's now after starting climbing about 8 months ago. I was wondering how long it usually takes most people to get to this point. My gym ranks the problems like horse pens 40 so you can get an idea of how hard it's rated


jbone


Oct 29, 2012, 4:57 PM
Post #2 of 76 (9111 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 461

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

If your OK with it then fine but to a lot of us your sends become legit when your doing it outside. Plan a trip to HP40 and then you will know 4 sure.


jomagam


Oct 29, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #3 of 76 (9106 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (9 ratings)  
Can't Post

Most climbers never get to the V6 level. Happy now ?


Daggers


Oct 29, 2012, 5:27 PM
Post #4 of 76 (9094 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [jomagam] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

What's the difference between grades indoors and outdoors? isn't a v3 a v3 and a v8 a v8 whether indoors or outdoors?

and wow jomagam, way to show some charm.....


theextremist04


Oct 29, 2012, 5:29 PM
Post #5 of 76 (9093 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 189

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
What's the difference between grades indoors and outdoors? isn't a v3 a v3 and a v8 a v8 whether indoors or outdoors?

and wow jomagam, way to show some charm.....
Because indoor climbing is invariably going to be easier- nice taped holds and usable feet and what not.


Daggers


Oct 29, 2012, 5:33 PM
Post #6 of 76 (9089 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [theextremist04] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

several months ago i went to horse pens 40 and thought that outside was easier since the whole rock is good texture for feet vs. the rubbed smooth wall surface indoors. but i do get confused as to what's best to grab on the boulder when outdoors.

my question's still not answered though lol. since there's a difference in indoors vs. outdoors, then how about the time it takes to do outdoors v6's?


jomagam


Oct 29, 2012, 6:11 PM
Post #7 of 76 (9073 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (8 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
my question's still not answered though lol. since there's a difference in indoors vs. outdoors, then how about the time it takes to do outdoors v6's?

I already answered it. The question makes no sense since most climbers never get to that level. So for some it's forever, but I'm sure there are climbers transitioning from other sports like gymnastics who do it within a week.

Generally speaking improvement in climbing, like other sports, varies a lot based on your age, physical fitness, body type, etc... If you still don't get it, then try answering these questions:

o How many years of training does it take for a runner to reach the 3 hour marathon level ?
o How long does it take an average person to become a millionaire ?


(This post was edited by jomagam on Oct 29, 2012, 6:13 PM)


jbone


Oct 29, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #8 of 76 (9066 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 461

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
What's the difference between grades indoors and outdoors? isn't a v3 a v3 and a v8 a v8 whether indoors or outdoors?

and wow jomagam, way to show some charm.....

Grading problems indoors is kinda like making a hangboard with 5 different hold sizes and saying if you do a pullup on the first you climb V2 the second V3 the third V4 etc.....

Where outside the rock has offered the climber a puzzle and your goal is to use the techniques and your personal strengths to unlock the sequence that allows you to top it out.

Every grade is subjective to the area and the style of climbing it offers. It is generally considered that you must be able to climb a grade comfortably at any area to be considered solid at any particular grade.


jomagam


Oct 29, 2012, 6:41 PM
Post #9 of 76 (9061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [jbone] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The other reason why indoor grades are off is that the V-scale starts rather high with V0 being equivalent to about 5.10b. You need to set boulder problems for newbies who would rope climb at the 5.7 level, and most gym owners don't bother to use a different scale for them.


shockabuku


Oct 29, 2012, 7:11 PM
Post #10 of 76 (9049 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4857

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Most people will never boulder V6.


Daggers


Oct 30, 2012, 4:27 AM
Post #11 of 76 (8988 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [jomagam] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

if not everyone becomes a millionaire, just use logic and turn the question into how long does it take the average millionaire to get to the million dollar point.

I wasn't aware that v6 isn't obtained by most people that climb on a regular basis.


bearbreeder


Oct 30, 2012, 5:10 AM
Post #12 of 76 (8974 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

indoors or outdoors?

many kids do v6 indoors ... not as many outdoors

just like the "magic" 5.12 number ...

anyone can climb 5.12 ... of course it can be easier if yr still young, are nice and skinny, etc ... but anyone who puts in the time, focusses on their technique and has the desire can climb a 5.12 in a few years ...

the problem is that many if not most climbers dont have the desire or the willpower ... they shut themselves out before even trying ...

the trick is to only climb with people who have a strong desire to get better and climb to the limit of their abilities ... not the people who want to go out do a few easy climbs and yak all day about how hardcore they are for leading some moderate trad

Wink


granite_grrl


Oct 30, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #13 of 76 (8973 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14715

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
if not everyone becomes a millionaire, just use logic and turn the question into how long does it take the average millionaire to get to the million dollar point.

I wasn't aware that v6 isn't obtained by most people that climb on a regular basis.

While the grading isn't totally transferable (which is why they have two different grading systems) you can consider V6 ~= 5.12+.


camhead


Oct 30, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #14 of 76 (8936 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 9, 2001
Posts: 20713

Re: [granite_grrl] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

Most gym climbers will never hit v6. However, most young, skinny, gym boulderers will hit a v6 in the gym within a year. It has less to do with actual talent, and more to do with your body type. As others have said, you are not really a v6 climber until you have done multiple styles at the grade: crimps, slab, horizontal roof, dyno, sloper, etc.

And, of course, it all depends on the gym, too. The people in here who are just automatically dismissing gyms and saying, "whoa, plastic won't prepare you for outdoors!" are oversimplifying things. If you've got a good gym with good setters, it is pretty likely that you'll get in a position to send v6 on your next outdoor trip. A lot of gym bouldering transfers to outside rock more easily than roped climbing. But, that's only if it's a good gym.

So, you did a v6; good. You are slightly better than average. But you're not going to be snagging any fat sponsorships anytime soon.


louBlissab


Oct 30, 2012, 7:42 AM
Post #15 of 76 (8892 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 9, 2009
Posts: 51

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:

I wasn't aware that v6 isn't obtained by most people that climb on a regular basis.

Hey Daggers,

Don't be self-aggrandizing. You've been climbing for 8 months and you don't know the answer to you original question? Why do you even care?

Like others have stated, many climbers don't achieve V6, whether or not they even try to or care to. It all has to do with body type, age, injuries, motivation, time, lifestyle...on and on. It's the personal challenge and personal fulfillment that is important. As you get older, you will realize that the numbers become less important and the memories, experiences and the people you meet are what really stands-out.

As an example, I have been climbing for +25 years and trad up mid-5.10...I can't get my ass off a V2 sit-start in the gym to save my life.

Indoor climbing grades are soft, because gym owners want their customers to feel good and have fun and to come back another day. Grades indoors do not have a consistant grading concensious to dial-in the true level of difficultly. Indoor routes are taken down in two weeks or so.

Outdoor climbing is the true measure of a climber's level of ability.

AB


bearbreeder


Oct 30, 2012, 8:04 AM
Post #16 of 76 (8867 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [louBlissab] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

louBlissab wrote:
Indoor climbing grades are soft, because gym owners want their customers to feel good and have fun and to come back another day. Grades indoors do not have a consistant grading concensious to dial-in the true level of difficultly. Indoor routes are taken down in two weeks or so.


AB

bull ... they can be soft or they can be hard ... there are plenty of gyms where a "5.11" feels just as hard as a 5.12 sport route here in squamish ...

nor are there any real consensus in grading across areas ... or even within an area ... plenty of "soft" routes around as well as sandbags


camhead


Oct 30, 2012, 8:11 AM
Post #17 of 76 (8858 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 9, 2001
Posts: 20713

Re: [louBlissab] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

louBlissab wrote:
Indoor climbing grades are soft, because gym owners want their customers to feel good and have fun and to come back another day. Grades indoors do not have a consistant grading concensious to dial-in the true level of difficultly. Indoor routes are taken down in two weeks or so.

Generalize much?

See this old thread for more elaboration.


DemolitionRed


Oct 30, 2012, 9:38 AM
Post #18 of 76 (8814 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 30, 2012
Posts: 77

Re: [camhead] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

 
louBlissab you should re-read what you wrote as you completely contradicted yourself.
I multi pitch sport at 5.11-5-12 outside. Inside I generally find it tougher because my routes been worked out for me and not the other way round.
Bouldering I only ever do in a gym because it scares the hell out of me! I do around V4 sometimes V5 but if I had a harness and rope I think I'd be a bit braver!

You can not compare bouldering to climbing on rope, especially multi pitch and high exposure stuff. Its a totally other animal.


Syd


Oct 31, 2012, 2:54 AM
Post #19 of 76 (8691 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [DemolitionRed] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I agree that most people never climb V6. Many gyms make routes extra soft, so you keep coming back to build your ego ... and it sounds as though it's working.


DemolitionRed


Oct 31, 2012, 3:17 AM
Post #20 of 76 (8690 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 30, 2012
Posts: 77

Re: [Syd] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Syd wrote:
I agree that most people never climb V6. Many gyms make routes extra soft, so you keep coming back to build your ego ... and it sounds as though it's working.

Actually I find that gyms vary hugely. Some routes I have climbed in a gym have been far tougher than the grade they have set and some much softer than the grade.
The last gym I went to had its bottom rope climbs set by boulderers. The reason I think this is because the final grab at the top of every 15 meter climb involved a dynamic jump!!
Those French 6As were far tougher than any 6A I would find outdoors.

Saying that, I don't think you can use internal grades to judge your capabilities. You certainly can't compare a bouldering grade against a rope grade.
I think bouldering is full of acrobatic skill. Its awesome to watch and its fantastic to combine bouldering and rope climbing together but its not the same thing at all. Its like the difference between skate boarding and snow boarding.


bearbreeder


Oct 31, 2012, 4:06 AM
Post #21 of 76 (8680 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Syd] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Syd wrote:
I agree that most people never climb V6. Many gyms make routes extra soft, so you keep coming back to build your ego ... and it sounds as though it's working.

there a certain "5.12" outside here that i guarantee i can walk you up if you can climb 5.11 at the local gym ... you may even be able to flash it ...

thats how "soft" gyms are Tongue


Syd


Oct 31, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #22 of 76 (8564 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I once took a woman outdoors for the first time who claimed she could climb 26 indoors. I started her on a 21 but she couldn't make the first move. In the end she couldn't even make it up a 17. She was quite embarassed.


bearbreeder


Oct 31, 2012, 2:39 PM
Post #23 of 76 (8552 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Syd] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

and i one took a "hardcore trad" climber who climbs 5.11 crack so he says into the gym, and he couldnt even get up an overhanging 5.10 route

the people who degenerate and say gyms are "soft", which some may be and others arent, are people who usually cant get up that overhanging 5.11+/12 climb there in the first place ...

gyms are for training ... and they excel for that because the routes are often very sustained ... unlike many climbs around here ...

i can point you to tons of "soft" climbs outside here ...


jomagam


Oct 31, 2012, 3:06 PM
Post #24 of 76 (8543 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
and i one took a "hardcore trad" climber who climbs 5.11 crack so he says into the gym, and he couldnt even get up an overhanging 5.10 route

Crack climbing is a different sport.


bearbreeder


Oct 31, 2012, 3:26 PM
Post #25 of 76 (8532 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [jomagam] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

my point exactly ... as is gym climbing from many different types if outdoor climbing ...

if you fancy the grades soft ... i cordially invite you to my gym which may be soft in the lower grades ... but since yr hardcore ill throw you on the 12-/+ here and see you onsight everything ...

if you can do that ill even buy you beer and dinner

then ill take you to the soft climbs are around here and well see which you think is softer ...Wink


Syd


Oct 31, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #26 of 76 (2791 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Even gyms vary dramatically. My local gym has fairly realistic grades but at another nearby gym I can climb almost everything. It is probably 2-3 grades soft, although it's bouldering area is realistic.


shockabuku


Oct 31, 2012, 7:10 PM
Post #27 of 76 (2784 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4857

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
if not everyone becomes a millionaire, just use logic and turn the question into how long does it take the average millionaire to get to the million dollar point.

I wasn't aware that v6 isn't obtained by most people that climb on a regular basis.

That's not logic.

Jumping to that conclusion uses the assumption that you don't know what you're talking about and asked the wrong question. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and answering the question you asked to the best of my ability. In the future I will know better and assume you don't know what you're talking about.Tongue


Alimali


Oct 31, 2012, 9:07 PM
Post #28 of 76 (2772 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 24, 2012
Posts: 27

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

I must say, after reading everyone's replies, there are a rather large amount of a) massive climbing snobs, b) grade obsessed idiots, and c) rather unkind people on this forum.

Anyway, in my (not particularly extensive) experience, there is a rather variable definition of 'most' when it comes to people's climbing progression... and at the end of the day, comparing yourself to everyone else can waste so much time and you don't get a whole lot out of it.

Just climb. Enjoy it. And don't get hung up on grades, and how long it takes you to get to the next grade, and how many people can climb at your grade, and how long it took them, and blahdeeblahblahblah.


louBlissab


Nov 1, 2012, 8:28 AM
Post #29 of 76 (2739 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 9, 2009
Posts: 51

Re: [Alimali] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Alimali wrote:
I must say, after reading everyone's replies, there are a rather large amount of a) massive climbing snobs, b) grade obsessed idiots, and c) rather unkind people on this forum.

Anyway, in my (not particularly extensive) experience, there is a rather variable definition of 'most' when it comes to people's climbing progression... and at the end of the day, comparing yourself to everyone else can waste so much time and you don't get a whole lot out of it.

Just climb. Enjoy it. And don't get hung up on grades, and how long it takes you to get to the next grade, and how many people can climb at your grade, and how long it took them, and blahdeeblahblahblah.

Well stated! More climbers should take this to heart.

Nobody gives a damn what grade or level a person climbs at. There is no lesser or greater personal accomplishment of the 5.5 climber, as compared to the 5.12+ climber.

There is no benefit to society or mankind for either. Does it really matter whether one's climbing gym or outdoor climbing area is sandbagged or considered hard? The plastic will be taken down in two weeks and the impossible sandbagged/run-out trad or sport project will be flashed and made to look easy by the next generation.

All climbers will realize long after the numbers are forgotten, when the body ages and breaks down, that what really is important, is the climbing experiences, the people met and the places visited.


superchuffer


Nov 1, 2012, 8:34 AM
Post #30 of 76 (2734 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 9, 2011
Posts: 294

Re: [shockabuku] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

yeah! bouldering is BS! do a 5.8 at the gunks with a 20 pound rack... that is real climbing.

screw grades, those pros are up their own butts with v15, 5,15. i think they are making grades up these days. it is all watered down for money and sponsors. used to be that 5.12 was hard, now people warm up on it.


olderic


Nov 1, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #31 of 76 (2718 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1536

Re: [superchuffer] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

How come the Alex Lowe (mis)quote hasn't appeared yet? Usually that is thrown out by now. Oh well - kumbuya.


bearbreeder


Nov 1, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #32 of 76 (2704 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [louBlissab] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

louBlissab wrote:

Nobody gives a damn what grade or level a person climbs at. There is no lesser or greater personal accomplishment of the 5.5 climber, as compared to the 5.12+ climber.


as long as that 5.5 trad climber doesnt go off and shout out to the world about how hardcore it is for leading an easy trad climb and about how boulderers are just hauling thelmselves, sport climbers are weenies, and little kid doing 5.14 are crap ...

climb what you like ... but if yr a 5.5 trad climber, understand thats what you are ... and that the only valid excuse you have is that you have no desire to climb at a higher level ...youre certainly not better than a sport climber or boulderer who tries to climb at their limt

none of that ... im too tall/fat/old/tired/no time crap ... and especially none of that bouldering/sport/climbing hard aint real climbing ... etc ...




Daggers


Nov 1, 2012, 11:44 AM
Post #33 of 76 (2671 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [Alimali] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Alimali wrote:
I must say, after reading everyone's replies, there are a rather large amount of a) massive climbing snobs, b) grade obsessed idiots, and c) rather unkind people on this forum.

Anyway, in my (not particularly extensive) experience, there is a rather variable definition of 'most' when it comes to people's climbing progression... and at the end of the day, comparing yourself to everyone else can waste so much time and you don't get a whole lot out of it.

Just climb. Enjoy it. And don't get hung up on grades, and how long it takes you to get to the next grade, and how many people can climb at your grade, and how long it took them, and blahdeeblahblahblah.


haha lol i think of it as there are two main types of climbers, those who climb, and those on this site. :P i just wanted to know to compare myself against others and track my progress and see how I am doing relative to people as a whole.

I think that gym grades vary largely. you can't say gyms as a whole set soft or hard. My gym sets harder routes and gives them lower grades. Others do not. It just depends.


redlude97


Nov 1, 2012, 11:49 AM
Post #34 of 76 (2668 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 988

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:


I think that gym grades vary largely. you can't say gyms as a whole set soft or hard. My gym sets harder routes and gives them lower grades. Others do not. It just depends.
So what you are saying is you can probably crush v12 outside Wink


Daggers


Nov 1, 2012, 12:02 PM
Post #35 of 76 (2659 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [redlude97] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

redlude97 wrote:
Daggers wrote:


I think that gym grades vary largely. you can't say gyms as a whole set soft or hard. My gym sets harder routes and gives them lower grades. Others do not. It just depends.
So what you are saying is you can probably crush v12 outside Wink

i meant than other gyms lol i haven't climb at enough places outside to compare them to outside grades


louBlissab


Nov 1, 2012, 12:25 PM
Post #36 of 76 (2646 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 9, 2009
Posts: 51

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
louBlissab wrote:

Nobody gives a damn what grade or level a person climbs at. There is no lesser or greater personal accomplishment of the 5.5 climber, as compared to the 5.12+ climber.


as long as that 5.5 trad climber doesnt go off and shout out to the world about how hardcore it is for leading an easy trad climb and about how boulderers are just hauling thelmselves, sport climbers are weenies, and little kid doing 5.14 are crap ...

climb what you like ... but if yr a 5.5 trad climber, understand thats what you are ... and that the only valid excuse you have is that you have no desire to climb at a higher level ...youre certainly not better than a sport climber or boulderer who tries to climb at their limt

none of that ... im too tall/fat/old/tired/no time crap ... and especially none of that bouldering/sport/climbing hard aint real climbing ... etc ...

[image]http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/247972_430571950333632_2112095981_n.jpg[/image]

5.5 climbers should be seen and not heard?

I see more upper-end climbers shouting out to the world, how hard-core it is to climb a stiff route, i.e. posing, posturing, hissy-fits, shirt-off/wool cap-on and general indifference to anyone around them. This may be a generalization, but this kind of display seems to happen a sport areas.

Furthermore, there are a lot of valid reasons why someone isn't climbing at a higher level or above 5.5 or whatever and has nothing to do with lack of desire. Reasons...what about age, injuries, body type, family responsibilities, economic status, parent selection, illness, location, business issues, personal fears, menopause, on and on.

Example, I climb with a group of older climbers, who in there day, crushed and put-up first ascents. They cling to their declining abilities and grade descent. Reason...see the previous paragraph. Has nothing to do with lack of desire.

I have much more respect for the person who is trying to overcome all of life's obstacles and is only climbing 5.5, than the gifted and superior talent, that has all the time in the world, good genes and support to devote to the sport.

Grades are just subjective numbers, that really don't mean a hell of a lot. At one time in climbing history 5.9 was the hardest grade for a climb in the world. 5.12's are warm-up's today. Sometime in the future, Chris Sharma's 5.15 whatever, will be a warmup for the next generation.

So to answer the original question of the OP, what the hell difference does it make how long it takes to get to V6. The journey to V6 is the goal, not necessarily achieving V6. Because after it's all said and done, what will be remembered will be the journey not necessarily the number.


(This post was edited by louBlissab on Nov 1, 2012, 6:16 PM)


edge


Nov 1, 2012, 12:37 PM
Post #37 of 76 (2633 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9092

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Daggers wrote:


I think that gym grades vary largely. you can't say gyms as a whole set soft or hard. My gym sets harder routes and gives them lower grades. Others do not. It just depends.
So what you are saying is you can probably crush v12 outside Wink

i meant than other gyms lol i haven't climb at enough places outside to compare them to outside grades

And exactly how many indoor gyms have you climbed at to make this sweeping statement?


bearbreeder


Nov 1, 2012, 12:49 PM
Post #38 of 76 (2626 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [louBlissab] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

louBlissab wrote:
5.5 climbers should be seen and not heard?

I see more upper-end climbers shouting out to the world, how hard-core it is to climb a stiff route, i.e. posing, posturing, hissy-fits, shirt-off/wool cap-on and general indifferent to anyone around them. This may be a generalization, but this kind of display seems to happen a sport areas.

Furthermore, there are a lot of valid reasons why someone isn't climbing at a higher level or above 5.5 or whatever and has nothing to do with lack of desire. Reasons...what about age, injuries, body type, family responsibilities, economic status, parent selection, illness, location, business issues, personal fears, on and on.

Example, I climb with a group of older climbers, who in there day, crushed and put-up first ascents. They cling to their declining abilities and grade descent. Reason...see the previous paragraph. Has nothing to do with lack of desire.

I have much more respect for the person who is trying to overcome all of life's obstacles and is only climbing 5.5, than the gifted and superior talent, that has all the time in the world, good genes and support to devote to the sport.


not out here ... most people ive met who climb hard sport are much more humble than all those "trad" climbers out here ... theyre too busy climbing and sending ...

they dont run around telling you the million ways yr going to die, scream at you for "unsafe" anchors, tell you how "hardcore" they were for running up snake dike, argue about how gumbie you are for using a cordelette and not tying in with the rope, how gri gris are the work of the devll and that you should only use an ATC, etc ...

the very best part about sport climbing, or any other type of hard climbing? when you get destroyed on a 5.11/12 and some 60 year old guy just hikes up it ... it happens quite frequently

its not a matter about how HARD you climb ... but what kind of excuses you make about not climbing to your limits and putting down kids who do climb to the very best of their abilities ...

climb what you want ... but dont be under the impression that some kid bouldering V6 doesnt love climbing or isnt a "real climber"

it not the grade that matters ... it that your willing to give it EVERYTHING ... and if you dont, not to make excuses about it or say "oh its only sport/gym climbing/boudlering" so it doesnt matter ...


louBlissab


Nov 1, 2012, 1:03 PM
Post #39 of 76 (2615 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 9, 2009
Posts: 51

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
louBlissab wrote:
5.5 climbers should be seen and not heard?

I see more upper-end climbers shouting out to the world, how hard-core it is to climb a stiff route, i.e. posing, posturing, hissy-fits, shirt-off/wool cap-on and general indifferent to anyone around them. This may be a generalization, but this kind of display seems to happen a sport areas.

Furthermore, there are a lot of valid reasons why someone isn't climbing at a higher level or above 5.5 or whatever and has nothing to do with lack of desire. Reasons...what about age, injuries, body type, family responsibilities, economic status, parent selection, illness, location, business issues, personal fears, on and on.

Example, I climb with a group of older climbers, who in there day, crushed and put-up first ascents. They cling to their declining abilities and grade descent. Reason...see the previous paragraph. Has nothing to do with lack of desire.

I have much more respect for the person who is trying to overcome all of life's obstacles and is only climbing 5.5, than the gifted and superior talent, that has all the time in the world, good genes and support to devote to the sport.


not out here ... most people ive met who climb hard sport are much more humble than all those "trad" climbers out here ... theyre too busy climbing and sending ...

they dont run around telling you the million ways yr going to die, scream at you for "unsafe" anchors, tell you how "hardcore" they were for running up snake dike, argue about how gumbie you are for using a cordelette and not tying in with the rope, how gri gris are the work of the devll and that you should only use an ATC, etc ...

the very best part about sport climbing, or any other type of hard climbing? when you get destroyed on a 5.11/12 and some 60 year old guy just hikes up it ... it happens quite frequently

its not a matter about how HARD you climb ... but what kind of excuses you make about not climbing to your limits and putting down kids who do climb to the very best of their abilities ...

climb what you want ... but dont be under the impression that some kid bouldering V6 doesnt love climbing or isnt a "real climber"

it not the grade that matters ... it that your willing to give it EVERYTHING ... and if you dont, not to make excuses about it or say "oh its only sport/gym climbing/boudlering" so it doesnt matter ...

Wow...are we touching some kind of nerve?

What's this constant reference to: "putting down kids"? Somewhere, in this whole discussion is putting down kids or anyone of any age?

As eloquently stated...climb what you want, but don't make the impression that some old guy climbing 5.5 doesn't love climbing or isn't a real climber! Let the old guy spray about his 5.5 ascent of some crappy choss-pile...afterall, he is giving it his all.


bearbreeder


Nov 1, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #40 of 76 (2605 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [louBlissab] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

louBlissab wrote:

Wow...are we touching some kind of nerve?

What's this constant reference to: "putting down kids"? Somewhere, in this whole discussion is putting down kids or anyone of any age?

As eloquently stated...climb what you want, but don't make the impression that some old guy climbing 5.5 doesn't love climbing or isn't a real climber! Let the old guy spray about his 5.5 ascent of some crappy choss-pile...afterall, he is giving it his all.

is he now? ... i guess it depends how old Wink

i walked at 57 year old guy up a 5.11 crack, he usually does 5.8/9 ... sure it was TR, and he took a fall or two at the crux ... but he said "DONT LET ME DOWN I CAN DO THIS" ... and he did ... thats inspiring

if youre really giving it your all ... thats ALL that matters ... but the sad truth is that most people young or old will make excuses about why they cant climb this or that ...

and even worse many will hide behind their excuses by running around telling people that gym climbing is "soft", bouldering isnt climbing, sport climbing is nothing more than clipping, screaming "unsafe, unsafe" ... etc ...

youll see it all the times in these forums ... and sadly enough at some crags as well ...

Tongue


crjanow


Nov 1, 2012, 3:38 PM
Post #41 of 76 (2583 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 69

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

man after not looking on this forum for so long and coming on here to read this thread makes me remember why i started reading on mountain project. what a stupid fucking pissing contest. shut the fuck up about what you can climb, like to climb, or think is the best kind of climbing and just climb.Crazy


Daggers


Nov 1, 2012, 3:59 PM
Post #42 of 76 (2575 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

wow.. a simple question turned into this lol you all think that the area you live in and the places you gone are what the whole world is like. Not everyone is the same and has the same mentality. You all live in your own little world that you can not see past. What idiots you are to come on here to push your views onto others trying to do the same to you. Come on this site for knowledge and helping others gain it, not to satisfy your idiocy.


bearbreeder


Nov 1, 2012, 4:14 PM
Post #43 of 76 (2569 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

knowledge and gain? ... spend more time on RC Wink

if you want real knowledge that you can put to good use, go out and climb ...

the intrawebs is full of people telling you the million of ways yr gonna die ...

just go out and climb as hard and as much as you can ... and if you wont dont make excuses or blame others for it

Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 1, 2012, 4:26 PM)


jbone


Nov 1, 2012, 6:07 PM
Post #44 of 76 (2542 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 461

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
wow.. a simple question turned into this lol you all think that the area you live in and the places you gone are what the whole world is like. Not everyone is the same and has the same mentality. You all live in your own little world that you can not see past. What idiots you are to come on here to push your views onto others trying to do the same to you. Come on this site for knowledge and helping others gain it, not to satisfy your idiocy.

The way you asked this question implies much much more than what you asked. Had you phrased it, "How would you know if your ready for v6?" your replies might take on a more positive nature. Climbing is not viewed favorably as a competition between others as much as a competition with yourself, keep this in context.

All climbers of any experience will talk you down and challenge your ability to pursue climbing. Its how we identify those who have no business trying to climb above their level cause its those very climbers who end up on a newsreel and give the rest of us and our activity a bad reputation. If you don't recognize this then its your own ignorance trying to tell you your not ready.

Come across as a useless git and you will be responded to as one. Show respect and a little humility and you may make a few friends around here.


louBlissab


Nov 1, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #45 of 76 (2541 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 9, 2009
Posts: 51

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
knowledge and gain? ... spend more time on RC Wink

if you want real knowledge that you can put to good use, go out and climb ...

the intrawebs is full of people telling you the million of ways yr gonna die ...

just go out and climb as hard and as much as you can ... and if you wont dont make excuses or blame others for it

Tongue

And remember folks: "you have to give it your all"


(This post was edited by louBlissab on Nov 1, 2012, 6:11 PM)


bearbreeder


Nov 1, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #46 of 76 (2527 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [louBlissab] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

louBlissab wrote:
And remember folks: "you have to give it your all"

nahhh ... do it half heartedly, give it a few lazy tries, eat a few cheezy poofs, tell yourself and others its too hard for ya, go on RC a bit ... doesnt matter because thats how ya doing the sport ya luv Wink


Daggers


Nov 2, 2012, 10:06 AM
Post #47 of 76 (2497 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [jbone] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

jbone wrote:
Daggers wrote:
wow.. a simple question turned into this lol you all think that the area you live in and the places you gone are what the whole world is like. Not everyone is the same and has the same mentality. You all live in your own little world that you can not see past. What idiots you are to come on here to push your views onto others trying to do the same to you. Come on this site for knowledge and helping others gain it, not to satisfy your idiocy.

The way you asked this question implies much much more than what you asked. Had you phrased it, "How would you know if your ready for v6?" your replies might take on a more positive nature. Climbing is not viewed favorably as a competition between others as much as a competition with yourself, keep this in context.

All climbers of any experience will talk you down and challenge your ability to pursue climbing. Its how we identify those who have no business trying to climb above their level cause its those very climbers who end up on a newsreel and give the rest of us and our activity a bad reputation. If you don't recognize this then its your own ignorance trying to tell you your not ready.

Come across as a useless git and you will be responded to as one. Show respect and a little humility and you may make a few friends around here.

oh right, so that's why they have competition for nationals and world and trying to get into the olympics?

measuring your progress against others is in no way against anything. if i'm going to do something i love such as climbing, i want to be the best. I want to know how i compare to others. not in a mean or overly competitive way, just to track my progress


jbone


Nov 2, 2012, 10:20 AM
Post #48 of 76 (2490 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 461

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Keep measuring yourself against others and you will find yourself climbing alone. You should be striving to be your best, not "The Best."

The reason you think the way you do is because you have been raised to climb in a gym instead of out on the actual rock.

V6 when you see it http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._the_Beast_1962.html


(This post was edited by jbone on Nov 2, 2012, 10:25 AM)


edge


Nov 2, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #49 of 76 (2489 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9092

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (9 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:

oh right, so that's why they have competition for nationals and world and trying to get into the olympics?

measuring your progress against others is in no way against anything. if i'm going to do something i love such as climbing, i want to be the best. I want to know how i compare to others. not in a mean or overly competitive way, just to track my progress

Well then, to answer your original question, my daughter was climbing V7 indoors and out at age 14, competed for 8 years pulling plastic in USA Climbing and ABS comps, and never made it to the US team as those comps are full of mutant kids who pull much harder than that.

More important than how hard she climbed is the fact that I got to introduce her to a lifelong sport that she carries on to this day, and the memories we share of that journey together.

You have earned all of the responses above by virtue of your posting history of "Being held back by my shoes?" (I climb V4 after 6 months), "Shoes really do make a difference!" (now I am climbing V6), to this gem of a topic (How awesome am I now that I am climbing V6 indoors on routes with no consensus that will be gone in a couple of months.)

All your posts just smack of look-at-me-ism. When you have travelled to a variety of areas outside and in and can consistantly climb V6s in a variety of styles, only then can you call yourself a V6 climber. Any further questions?


theextremist04


Nov 2, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #50 of 76 (2455 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 189

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Take a trip to Hueco, report back, and let us all know how it goes.

edit: you're in Florida, go to horse pens or rocktown then.


(This post was edited by theextremist04 on Nov 2, 2012, 12:13 PM)


Daggers


Nov 2, 2012, 5:58 PM
Post #51 of 76 (2763 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [edge] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

I would definitely disagree and say that there is a lot of variety in a gym. The route setters have all types of style and holds. I would say a gym has more variety than an area outdoors simply because the problems are whatever they want it to be and you can make up routes on top of those and get even more types of climbing styles.


redlude97


Nov 2, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #52 of 76 (2759 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 988

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
I would definitely disagree and say that there is a lot of variety in a gym. The route setters have all types of style and holds. I would say a gym has more variety than an area outdoors simply because the problems are whatever they want it to be and you can make up routes on top of those and get even more types of climbing styles.
Its still the fucking gym. Get outside and report back.


bearbreeder


Nov 2, 2012, 6:19 PM
Post #53 of 76 (2756 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
I would definitely disagree and say that there is a lot of variety in a gym. The route setters have all types of style and holds. I would say a gym has more variety than an area outdoors simply because the problems are whatever they want it to be and you can make up routes on top of those and get even more types of climbing styles.

have you even been outside?????

go climb just cracks ... not sport ... and youll find out that even that limited purview there is much more variety than the gym ... fingers, offwidths, chimneys, roof cracks, hands, fists, dihedrals, smeary racks, layback cracks, shallow tips cracks, etc ... ... each one uses a different technique

now add in all the sport, big walls, slab, bouldering, etc ... each one with basically just as much variety ... and anyone can see how stupid your statement is

just go out and climb instead of being a total aggressively ignorant idiot

Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 2, 2012, 6:22 PM)


edge


Nov 2, 2012, 7:00 PM
Post #54 of 76 (2741 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9092

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (6 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
I would definitely disagree and say that there is a lot of variety in a gym. The route setters have all types of style and holds. I would say a gym has more variety than an area outdoors simply because the problems are whatever they want it to be and you can make up routes on top of those and get even more types of climbing styles.

You should purchase a dump truck, because you're going to need something to carry away all that dirt from the hole you're digging yourself into.

First, before you lecture me about gyms, you may find it interesting that I have climbed in, ran comps for, and visited over 130 gyms in over 20 states. I coached a competitive climbing team for 10 years, have designed and built 5 large walls for schools, and have made my own holds from shaping to pouring the resin to route setting for comps. Oh yeah, I'm also a USA Climbing Nationally Certified Head Judge and have overseen all manor of events including Adult Bouldering Nationals. I am going out on a limb here, not knowing you at all, but I may know more about gym climbing than you...

Now for the best part, I have well over 1500 days climbing outdoors totaling maybe 6000+ pitches from trad to sport to big walls, and I'm not even the most experienced climber on this site; far from it. Many, many more days and pitches if you count ice and alpine climbing, but lets exclude those for the purpose of our discussion, shall we.

Now, bottom line is, everything you wrote in the above quote is a crock of Sh!t. You are young (I'm guessing 16ish?) and enthusiastic; that's fabulous. It appears to me that you have climbed at no more than a couple of gyms, if that, and I seriously doubt you have ever climbed outdoors at all. Florida is not generally known as a climbers playground. You can never replicate the variety and styles of climbing available outdoors in a gym environment. For all the multitude of holds and gyms as there are, there are infinitely more in Nature. Period. End of story.

Please stop arguing a point that you are not going to win and have no qualifications to have an opinion on.


(This post was edited by edge on Nov 2, 2012, 7:12 PM)


Alimali


Nov 3, 2012, 12:38 AM
Post #55 of 76 (2709 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 24, 2012
Posts: 27

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
I would definitely disagree and say that there is a lot of variety in a gym. The route setters have all types of style and holds. I would say a gym has more variety than an area outdoors simply because the problems are whatever they want it to be and you can make up routes on top of those and get even more types of climbing styles.

Come on... REALLY? I'm a massive gym rat, just due to the convenience of it and the fact that I'm a beginner, and that sounds completely ridiculous to even me

There is no way that climbing in a gym will ever be able to replicate the variety and wonderfulness of real rocks.

Have you actually climbed outside?

I don't mean to sound patronizing, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.


yanqui


Nov 3, 2012, 8:50 AM
Post #56 of 76 (2681 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 1550

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I don't have the first idea about "most people", but there is a kid here (in his 20s) who climbs with our little group, and who recently managed to climb several (stout and consensus) V6's after climbing for about a year and a half. Maybe not exactly a prodigy, but it's the first time I've ever seen someone reach that level so quickly. My 10 year old daughter has recently climbed some V3s, although she's been on and off climbing for a few years. This year, though, she seems to be really getting into it. and is starting to train, on a more regular basis. Who knows where she'll be at when she's 11?


dinosore


Nov 3, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #57 of 76 (2649 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 16, 2012
Posts: 4

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
What's the difference between grades indoors and outdoors? isn't a v3 a v3 and a v8 a v8 whether indoors or outdoors?

and wow jomagam, way to show some charm.....

I can climb v3/4 steady at my gym. First time i climbed at Joshua Tree I didnt send higher then a v1. Climbing on rock is different then plastic molds for sure


Daggers


Nov 3, 2012, 5:34 PM
Post #58 of 76 (2631 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
Daggers wrote:
I would definitely disagree and say that there is a lot of variety in a gym. The route setters have all types of style and holds. I would say a gym has more variety than an area outdoors simply because the problems are whatever they want it to be and you can make up routes on top of those and get even more types of climbing styles.

have you even been outside?????

go climb just cracks ... not sport ... and youll find out that even that limited purview there is much more variety than the gym ... fingers, offwidths, chimneys, roof cracks, hands, fists, dihedrals, smeary racks, layback cracks, shallow tips cracks, etc ... ... each one uses a different technique

now add in all the sport, big walls, slab, bouldering, etc ... each one with basically just as much variety ... and anyone can see how stupid your statement is

just go out and climb instead of being a total aggressively ignorant idiot

Tongue

and what, those styles can't be replicated in a gym? i mean yeah sure, outdoor rock definitely has the different textures and environment and that can't be put indoors, but the moves and holds can definitely be replicated. If you have trouble with some moves outdoors and you can do it indoors with the problem replicated, then it's all mental.

A boulder is going to look more or less the same after years. In a gym, a wall will change many, many times after years. Tell me which one has more variety.


Gmburns2000


Nov 3, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #59 of 76 (2619 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15113

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

T6

I would've given it T2 because it was kind of a crappy thread / topic, but you hooked a couple of knowledgeable regulars.

Well done.


skiclimb


Nov 3, 2012, 9:47 PM
Post #60 of 76 (2599 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1936

Re: [Gmburns2000] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Pebbles? Pebbles!!! ... Pebbles

We talkin bout Pebbles??


bearbreeder


Nov 3, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #61 of 76 (2593 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:

and what, those styles can't be replicated in a gym? i mean yeah sure, outdoor rock definitely has the different textures and environment and that can't be put indoors, but the moves and holds can definitely be replicated. If you have trouble with some moves outdoors and you can do it indoors with the problem replicated, then it's all mental.

A boulder is going to look more or less the same after years. In a gym, a wall will change many, many times after years. Tell me which one has more variety.

why dont you tell us exactly how many places and what routes you have climbed outdoors ...

you know to replicate even offwidth cracks alone youd have to change the texture and walls of the route in hte gyms every time ... theres overhanging offwidths, flared ones, constricting ones, #4/5/6/big bro sized, right/left leaning ones, corner ones, roof ones ... how often are you willing to rebuild the climbing gym?

use yr little head instead of being aggressively ignorant ...

said with utter and total contempt Tongue


Daggers


Nov 4, 2012, 5:24 AM
Post #62 of 76 (2565 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
Daggers wrote:

and what, those styles can't be replicated in a gym? i mean yeah sure, outdoor rock definitely has the different textures and environment and that can't be put indoors, but the moves and holds can definitely be replicated. If you have trouble with some moves outdoors and you can do it indoors with the problem replicated, then it's all mental.

A boulder is going to look more or less the same after years. In a gym, a wall will change many, many times after years. Tell me which one has more variety.

why dont you tell us exactly how many places and what routes you have climbed outdoors ...

you know to replicate even offwidth cracks alone youd have to change the texture and walls of the route in hte gyms every time ... theres overhanging offwidths, flared ones, constricting ones, #4/5/6/big bro sized, right/left leaning ones, corner ones, roof ones ... how often are you willing to rebuild the climbing gym?

use yr little head instead of being aggressively ignorant ...

said with utter and total contempt Tongue

ok so you're comparing the whole world of outside climbing to one gym? Gyms have cracks built into the wall sometimes and if you want to climb other crack types, go to other gyms. One gym alone can't replicate all of them. Just like if you want to climb different crack types outdoors, you go to different places. That's a no brainer.

so why don't you use your head before you arrogantly post next time.


bearbreeder


Nov 4, 2012, 5:32 AM
Post #63 of 76 (2564 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:

ok so you're comparing the whole world of outside climbing to one gym? Gyms have cracks built into the wall sometimes and if you want to climb other crack types, go to other gyms. One gym alone can't replicate all of them. Just like if you want to climb different crack types outdoors, you go to different places. That's a no brainer.

so why don't you use your head before you arrogantly post next time.

i repeat ... TELLS US THE CLIMBS YOUVE DONE OUTDOORS ... Tongue

now we got to go to gyms all over the world because all the gyms in the world will have enough cracks to surpass the cracks outside ???

classic .... totally and utterly RC uber classic Wink


Daggers


Nov 4, 2012, 6:02 AM
Post #64 of 76 (2558 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [bearbreeder] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

bearbreeder wrote:
Daggers wrote:

ok so you're comparing the whole world of outside climbing to one gym? Gyms have cracks built into the wall sometimes and if you want to climb other crack types, go to other gyms. One gym alone can't replicate all of them. Just like if you want to climb different crack types outdoors, you go to different places. That's a no brainer.

so why don't you use your head before you arrogantly post next time.

i repeat ... TELLS US THE CLIMBS YOUVE DONE OUTDOORS ... Tongue

now we got to go to gyms all over the world because all the gyms in the world will have enough cracks to surpass the cracks outside ???

classic .... totally and utterly RC uber classic Wink

like that matters? i've only been to a couple places like horse pens 40 but like i said already a boulder is going to look more or less the same after years. In a gym, a wall will change many, many times after years. Tell me which one has more variety.


csproul


Nov 4, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #65 of 76 (2555 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1767

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Dude..you're funny. Is your gym in a Holiday Inn Express?


bearbreeder


Nov 4, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #66 of 76 (2550 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:

like that matters? i've only been to a couple places like horse pens 40 but like i said already a boulder is going to look more or less the same after years. In a gym, a wall will change many, many times after years. Tell me which one has more variety.

so basically youve done a boulder or two at one place ... so you say Wink

tell me how much rock there is in the world oh little aggressively ignorant RC wannabe Tongue

have you even tried anything but a boulder or two outside ... a few real routes, some trad, a multipitch, a crack or two? Cool


jbone


Nov 4, 2012, 7:36 AM
Post #67 of 76 (2541 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 461

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'm actually gonna answer your question.

Takes me about 35 min to get to v6's, about 200 of them nearby in Queen Creek, Arizona. If I add about 20 min to that I can reach about 25 more in the Sups.

The Moonstone at Groom Creek in Prescott is a solid v6 and its about 90 min away. Then Anorexic, one of the most classic roof lines in the world is just 2 hours away. Still just a day trip. And Hueco Tanks, the best bouldering area in the western hemisphere is a scant 6 hrs away which has another 100+ v6's.

These area's all have somewhere in the area of a trillion sq. ft. of climbable surface area, whats your gym, maybe 5,000-6,000 sq.ft.? Not even close dude.


Daggers


Nov 4, 2012, 9:58 AM
Post #68 of 76 (2518 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [jbone] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

jbone wrote:
I'm actually gonna answer your question.

Takes me about 35 min to get to v6's, about 200 of them nearby in Queen Creek, Arizona. If I add about 20 min to that I can reach about 25 more in the Sups.

The Moonstone at Groom Creek in Prescott is a solid v6 and its about 90 min away. Then Anorexic, one of the most classic roof lines in the world is just 2 hours away. Still just a day trip. And Hueco Tanks, the best bouldering area in the western hemisphere is a scant 6 hrs away which has another 100+ v6's.

These area's all have somewhere in the area of a trillion sq. ft. of climbable surface area, whats your gym, maybe 5,000-6,000 sq.ft.? Not even close dude.

my gym isn't the only gym in the world. I'm talking about all the rock in the world and all the gyms in the world.

and my question was on how long since you started climbing does it take to get to the v6 level. sorry if that was unclear.


rocknice2


Nov 4, 2012, 10:47 AM
Post #69 of 76 (2511 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1197

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
So I just broke through the plateau i was on and i'm climbing v6's now after starting climbing about 8 months ago. I was wondering how long it usually takes most people to get to this point. My gym ranks the problems like horse pens 40 so you can get an idea of how hard it's rated
Daggers your a rockstar. You have definitely reached v6 faster than most people, seeing as most people don't reach v6 at all. Your physical skills are envied but many.

Your question is impertinent to 99% of the climbers out there. You see it's all about having fun, setting goals and achieving personal milestones. It's not about who's better, stronger or faster than me.
If I have had a super fun happy day on the rock with good friends then +1.
Send a project I've been working hard on +1.
Spend time around a campfire with a self absorbed rock god -1.

You see it's all well and good that you reach v6 but who cares, besides you. If you feel that your level of accomplishment is high then that's what it is. If you feel that it's not then try harder.

As for the plastic vs rock debate. It's plastic, no sane climber picks plastic when they can climb rock. Rock has way more variety then plastic ever will. There are route you can model in the gym but there are many more you can't.

My advice is to take a road trip and then post back.


Daggers


Nov 4, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #70 of 76 (2488 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [rocknice2] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

rocknice2 wrote:
Daggers wrote:
So I just broke through the plateau i was on and i'm climbing v6's now after starting climbing about 8 months ago. I was wondering how long it usually takes most people to get to this point. My gym ranks the problems like horse pens 40 so you can get an idea of how hard it's rated
Daggers your a rockstar. You have definitely reached v6 faster than most people, seeing as most people don't reach v6 at all. Your physical skills are envied but many.

Your question is impertinent to 99% of the climbers out there. You see it's all about having fun, setting goals and achieving personal milestones. It's not about who's better, stronger or faster than me.
If I have had a super fun happy day on the rock with good friends then +1.
Send a project I've been working hard on +1.
Spend time around a campfire with a self absorbed rock god -1.

You see it's all well and good that you reach v6 but who cares, besides you. If you feel that your level of accomplishment is high then that's what it is. If you feel that it's not then try harder.

As for the plastic vs rock debate. It's plastic, no sane climber picks plastic when they can climb rock. Rock has way more variety then plastic ever will. There are route you can model in the gym but there are many more you can't.

My advice is to take a road trip and then post back.


I do agree with most of what you said. I view a good day as one that I felt good while climbing, not what I climbed. But basically what everyone on here thinks is that seeing how well your performance is compared to others isn't good. I never said that i'm just all about trying to beat everyone. Yeah sure, i want to become really godd but only because I want to be able to do this as a living for a while (an almost impossible goal i know, but no reason not to try), but I do it because I love it not because i'm "a self-absorbed rock god".

The original question was asked out of simple curiosity, not as an egotistical climber. And yeah i would climb outdoors just about any day if i had the chance, but sadly i don't. plus it tends to tear up my shoes pretty badly and i'm no millionaire! lol


theextremist04


Nov 4, 2012, 1:33 PM
Post #71 of 76 (2472 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 189

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
Daggers wrote:
So I just broke through the plateau i was on and i'm climbing v6's now after starting climbing about 8 months ago. I was wondering how long it usually takes most people to get to this point. My gym ranks the problems like horse pens 40 so you can get an idea of how hard it's rated
Daggers your a rockstar. You have definitely reached v6 faster than most people, seeing as most people don't reach v6 at all. Your physical skills are envied but many.

Your question is impertinent to 99% of the climbers out there. You see it's all about having fun, setting goals and achieving personal milestones. It's not about who's better, stronger or faster than me.
If I have had a super fun happy day on the rock with good friends then +1.
Send a project I've been working hard on +1.
Spend time around a campfire with a self absorbed rock god -1.

You see it's all well and good that you reach v6 but who cares, besides you. If you feel that your level of accomplishment is high then that's what it is. If you feel that it's not then try harder.

As for the plastic vs rock debate. It's plastic, no sane climber picks plastic when they can climb rock. Rock has way more variety then plastic ever will. There are route you can model in the gym but there are many more you can't.

My advice is to take a road trip and then post back.


Yeah sure, i want to become really godd but only because I want to be able to do this as a living for a while
Semi-Freudian slip?


Daggers


Nov 4, 2012, 2:36 PM
Post #72 of 76 (2462 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [theextremist04] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

theextremist04 wrote:
Daggers wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
Daggers wrote:
So I just broke through the plateau i was on and i'm climbing v6's now after starting climbing about 8 months ago. I was wondering how long it usually takes most people to get to this point. My gym ranks the problems like horse pens 40 so you can get an idea of how hard it's rated
Daggers your a rockstar. You have definitely reached v6 faster than most people, seeing as most people don't reach v6 at all. Your physical skills are envied but many.

Your question is impertinent to 99% of the climbers out there. You see it's all about having fun, setting goals and achieving personal milestones. It's not about who's better, stronger or faster than me.
If I have had a super fun happy day on the rock with good friends then +1.
Send a project I've been working hard on +1.
Spend time around a campfire with a self absorbed rock god -1.

You see it's all well and good that you reach v6 but who cares, besides you. If you feel that your level of accomplishment is high then that's what it is. If you feel that it's not then try harder.

As for the plastic vs rock debate. It's plastic, no sane climber picks plastic when they can climb rock. Rock has way more variety then plastic ever will. There are route you can model in the gym but there are many more you can't.

My advice is to take a road trip and then post back.


Yeah sure, i want to become really godd but only because I want to be able to do this as a living for a while
Semi-Freudian slip?

lol *good not godd. that's pretty funny


rocknice2


Nov 4, 2012, 8:09 PM
Post #73 of 76 (2431 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1197

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
I do agree with most of what you said. I view a good day as one that I felt good while climbing, not what I climbed. But basically what everyone on here thinks is that seeing how well your performance is compared to others isn't good.
Now your understanding things.

Daggers wrote:
Yeah sure, i want to become really [good climber] but only because I want to be able to do this as a living for a while (an almost impossible goal i know, but no reason not to try)
OK now there is a goal. Unfortunately it's too early to tell if your world class material. You'll need to reach at least v14 to be world class. Can you reach it? Yes you can but only if you put in the hard work to get there.
There are a lot of climbers that can reach v6. Not most but many. The difference between a v14 and a v6 climber is dedication to the point where you can't do anything else including have a job. You'd be a full-time athlete and training/climbing would be your life. Now that is your goal except for the fact that your still not getting paid.

The world of professional athletes is a dirtbag living, especially for climbers. The factories will give you all the gear you can carry up the largest peak in the world. The thing they won't do is pay you $$. They have no need to. They will give you a job if your not a douche bag but they won't pay you to climb.
Now making videos and having your own line of t-shirts is where you can make money. And hey when you do something amazing, I'll buy a "Dagger The Destroyer" video, no problem.

I wish you the best of luck in perusing your goals.


Daggers


Nov 5, 2012, 4:33 AM
Post #74 of 76 (2402 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 2, 2012
Posts: 30

Re: [rocknice2] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

rocknice2 wrote:
Daggers wrote:
I do agree with most of what you said. I view a good day as one that I felt good while climbing, not what I climbed. But basically what everyone on here thinks is that seeing how well your performance is compared to others isn't good.
Now your understanding things.

Daggers wrote:
Yeah sure, i want to become really [good climber] but only because I want to be able to do this as a living for a while (an almost impossible goal i know, but no reason not to try)
OK now there is a goal. Unfortunately it's too early to tell if your world class material. You'll need to reach at least v14 to be world class. Can you reach it? Yes you can but only if you put in the hard work to get there.
There are a lot of climbers that can reach v6. Not most but many. The difference between a v14 and a v6 climber is dedication to the point where you can't do anything else including have a job. You'd be a full-time athlete and training/climbing would be your life. Now that is your goal except for the fact that your still not getting paid.

The world of professional athletes is a dirtbag living, especially for climbers. The factories will give you all the gear you can carry up the largest peak in the world. The thing they won't do is pay you $$. They have no need to. They will give you a job if your not a douche bag but they won't pay you to climb.
Now making videos and having your own line of t-shirts is where you can make money. And hey when you do something amazing, I'll buy a "Dagger The Destroyer" video, no problem.

I wish you the best of luck in perusing your goals.
Thanks! I apologize if I came off as douche baggy earlier, I guess i wasn't explaining myself clearly and I needed to just stop and think for a moment.


skiclimb


Nov 5, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #75 of 76 (2352 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1936

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

You seem young, enthusiastic, ambitious and like most youngsters that off balance mix of proud and insecure. Passionate and defensive. You are clearly thinking about climbing when you are not doing it but don't have much experience other than gym climbing. You seem sure of your ideas.

With more experience that is a potent mix of attributes that can serve you well and has served a lot of the best climbers in the past. Us old farts will tolerate an enthusiastic kid, you'll make a handy rope gun soon enough. Plus hell some of us were the same way once upon a time.

Do you have good judgement when climbing? Hard to say. I hope so.. I hope you will have a good feel for your limits at any one time. That you do not make terribly dangerous errors.

Beyond that keep having fun with climbing. Keep trying to be your best and see if you can measure up to those climbers with the skill you wish to have. The path of becoming your own hero is a good one. Part of growing up if you are lucky.

Chill, have a blast, climb hard, push yourself and help others, The results you want will come when they should.


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Nov 5, 2012, 9:54 AM)


juststrange


Nov 7, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #76 of 76 (830 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 31, 2004
Posts: 80

Re: [Daggers] How long for most people to reach v6's? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Daggers wrote:
Yeah sure, i want to become really godd but only because I want to be able to do this as a living for a while (an almost impossible goal i know, but no reason not to try), but I do it because I love it not because i'm "a self-absorbed rock god".

The original question was asked out of simple curiosity, not as an egotistical climber. And yeah i would climb outdoors just about any day if i had the chance, but sadly i don't. plus it tends to tear up my shoes pretty badly and i'm no millionaire! lol

Want to see how you stack up against other dedicated, paid, climbers, go to a few ABS comps. If you're flashing soft V6/V7 indoor stuff you ought to be able to get on the podium in the advanced division (personal experience). If you can pull true V8+ stuff you're ready for Open class where its a cash purse. But don't expect to get far in open class anytime soon - last weekend at my local ABS comp the open class consisted of Rob DAnistatio, Vasya V, Mike Feinberg, and 5 other mutants. I've seen people with things like shoe sponsorship around the V10ish level.

If climbing outside wrecks your shoes - better footwork. For a humbling experience, I recommend Soap on a Rope at Rocktown.


Forums : Climbing Information : Beginners

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook