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guangzhou


Nov 12, 2012, 6:19 PM
Post #26 of 32 (717 views)
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Registered: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 3389

Re: [FriscoWilderness] Schooling [In reply to]
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FriscoWilderness wrote:
I respect other peoples opinion and i know about the different views about the amga. Im one of those that believe the amga has a great program for aspiring guides, and it says alot for those that take their time and money to go through it. Its not for everyone but for myself and my business I feel it brings credibility to a business that is currently unregulated where its difficult for the layman to tell the good from the bad and to make an informed decision were lives are at stake. You said it yourself, have a tax question go to a cpa, if your looking for a guide find one thats certified by one of the two major cerifying organizations in the states not just someone that says they know something, but there guides and climbers out there that feel the opposite, so we do agree on that. i didnt say their the be all end all.

There is the right way, the wrong way and a million different ways of doing things and people should respect that. I appretiate you doing your due diligence of checking my background and business before attempting to loud mouth me again, Im not hidng, my link is in my profile for everyone to see. Not sure what your attempting to do by posting it except giving us some free marketing cause im proud of who we are, what we are doing and how we do it, but it does say alot about you as a person, a loud mouth holy'er than thou, im right everyone else is wrong ass, and i hope others will be able to see that as well. As you can see we are in the amga guide program and as the lead guide at my business i feel i should at a minimum be amga RIC and thats what im doing currently along with actual experience in the realm in which we guide. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Like I said before everything that I wrote was just my opinion it didnt come from the bible. Take it for what it is worth, a grain of salt.

In case you missed the link, here it is again:

http://www.northtexasopc.com/about/staff/

And just so you know its not personal, my company has been a fan of your facebook page when you first started construction.


Sorry i dont meet your worthiness to have an opinion.

Cheers
Christopher Gibson
The North Texas Outdoor Pursuit Center

If I didn't respect your opinion or what you wrote, I would not have written such a long reply to what you wrote. I do like this post much better, a bit clearer to understand. I think people will appreciate your opinion a bit more now that they know your background.

I also believe that a public discussion about both sides of the coin will help the guiding industry. Lot's of people, including climbers, don't know you don't need a guide certification to do this for a living.

Just to be clear, I did not say AMGA's teachings are bad, what I said was they are not necessary for guiding. Especially at the entry level where the OP was asking.

The strength of AMGA is a standardized a layered approach to teaching the technical skills. I think it's biggest weakness is the reliance on the individual's integrity and honesty. Specifically guide days between Courses and Exams.)

Not sure how long you've been guiding, but RIC, a good choice for sure. Not just guides, but every climber can learn something in that course.
Good luck with the RIC, planning on taking the EXAM too?

I reiterate, getting hired as a guide doesn't require AMGA certification of any level. I really believe that a recommendation and introduction from a guide to the boss, or a introduction from one of the owner's personal climbing partner will go further than having the certificate.

I would recommend:
Find an entry level guide job.
Work there for a year/season.
Pick up some skills like dealing with people/clients.
If you're still loving it and interested, find away to pay for the AMGA program using just you guide income or ask the guide service to help cover expenses.

Like many people suggested above, get a degree in something that will open more doors. Not sure how useful a degree in Outdoor of Adventure Education will be in the next 15 years.

Personally I love my life in the climbing industry, but I took breaks along the way too. Never from climbing, but from working in the industry for sure.

When I was 17, back in the 80s, my buddy and I decided to do a wilderness climb. Hiked in, camped and climbed for two days, and hiked out. While on that trip, we had a conversation with ranger. She was gorgeous, in our adolescent minds at least. When I mentioned I wanted to be a Ranger and Work for NPS, she didn't miss a beat with her advice. Get a job that pays better, use your money to travel and enjoy the parks. best advice I ever received.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Nov 12, 2012, 6:25 PM)


FriscoWilderness


Nov 12, 2012, 7:23 PM
Post #27 of 32 (708 views)
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Registered: Dec 8, 2009
Posts: 86

Re: [guangzhou] Schooling [In reply to]
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Guangzhou, I have not been guiding long, only about eight years and always for myself as a legitimate company with permits and insurance and such, my climbing facility has been around since 1993 and I aquired it right as you were starting construction on yours. Im not a big poster on rc.com but I read the posts almost daily, more for entertainment, personally I prefer mp.com though.

I do plan on taking the RIC exam after taking the course but its more on a personal basis than anything else.

I agree recommendations and letters go along way, but you and I both know how hard it is to get proper training in the AMGA skill set or just the rescue techniques and soft skils necessary to be a good guide if your just a recreational climber especially for those that are coming up now. There is not alot of people willing to take new climbers under their wing and mentor them, so now a days courses and instruction from qualified guides is the guarenteed way to go. That is our mission here at the NTOPC to groom safe and competent outdoor climbers, a place where a climber experienced or not can go and ask questions and get bonafide answers.

I am a strong supporter of the AMGA program as you can tell, I actually failed my first SPI exam cause I under estimated the high standard that is required to call yourself an amga guide and in this business I beleive high standards are called for. Once again just my opinion.

The days of living in your van and learning the ropes as a new climber by living in the climbing areas and climbing with people you just met or all but over, there are to many dangerous people out there now, its sad that the golden age is over.

And I would also like to apologize to you for some of my harsh statements, sometimes its not what a person says its how they say it that rubs me the wrong way.

Good luck over there and if I am ever in your town I will surely stop in.

I am sure we will post up on here again.


guangzhou


Nov 12, 2012, 9:55 PM
Post #28 of 32 (695 views)
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Registered: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 3389

Re: [FriscoWilderness] Schooling [In reply to]
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FriscoWilderness

Agree with lots of what you have to say, especially the quality of climbers' basic skills today.

I agree, this site is more about entertainment, but unlike you, I do post quite often.

In general, I prefer Supertopo all around.

I spent a winter climbing in Texas, Heuco then spent some time in Austin. Green belt, Reingmer's are fun for bolt clipping, but Enchanted Rock is fantastic for slab and some great short cracks too.

Good luck in all you endeavors.

Eman


petsfed


Nov 13, 2012, 7:36 AM
Post #29 of 32 (681 views)
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Registered: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 8589

Re: [FriscoWilderness] Schooling [In reply to]
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I think Guangzhou is arguing for preferring climbers with good judgement over simply good education.

"Cool Story Bro" time:
I used to work with this guy who was easily one of the most well-trained members of our outdoor program. Worked as a NOLS instructor, had led plenty of trips. However, he operated under the assumption that all of that training meant that he didn't need the experience that leads to good judgement. He and I clashed over a variety of things, from safe snow climbing practices to the necessity of following equipment checkout procedures. At one point, after he took over for me at the campus climbing wall, I asked if I should check in the keys to him (as they had been checked out to me) and responded "no, I just won't lose them" in such a tone as to suggest that the rules were only in place to keep people less capable than him in line. Eventually he was fired for violating the university's alcohol policy.

The short version is this: this guy had a lot of training under his belt, but he only had a lot of theory, not a lot of practice. To make matters worse, he assumed that since he had enough experience to see that a rule was slightly restrictive, he could safely ignore that rule. There are no hard-and-fast rules in climbing, but you ignore the hard-and-fast rules of your employer at your peril.


guangzhou


Nov 15, 2012, 8:30 PM
Post #30 of 32 (639 views)
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Registered: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 3389

Re: [petsfed] Schooling [In reply to]
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I spent a few weeks climbing in China one summer and while there volunteered my time with a guide service. The manager was good, but he asked how to improve the operation overall.

In a week we implemented some simple rule changes, the number one being a checkout procedure for gear. People were very resistant to change, but a year late when I was there, everyone had adjusted and no gear had gone missing in a year.

I think a lot of us have climbed with the climber who can tell you the tensile strength of all equipment, the specs on the gear, and best theoretical ways to get done, but still can't climb. (Both physically and technically)

Often these same climbers are extremely focused on rescue training and carry large first aid kits. I often wonder if they don't secretly hope something will happen just so they can jump into action and save the day. (Most likely making the situation worse)

I advocate good judgement over good education in all aspects of life. Sometime one leads to the other, sometime not.

Just because you have a degree in public speaking doesn't make you a good public speaker.


yodadave


Nov 15, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #31 of 32 (634 views)
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Registered: Feb 10, 2008
Posts: 510

Re: [petsfed] Schooling [In reply to]
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petsfed, I've woorked with so many of those people! Awesome on paper and worthless in the field.

OP dont pay for an education you cant afford to use. What i mean is that if at the end of all that schooling you cant afford to live on a guide salary then its all been worthless. If you can get into the outdoor pofessional field without debt that is ideal


shockabuku


Nov 16, 2012, 4:42 PM
Post #32 of 32 (609 views)
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Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4861

Re: [Libbster] Schooling [In reply to]
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Libbster wrote:
Howdy, I was planning on going to Murray State for the new degree program called Adventure Leadership and Expedition Planning. Afterwards, go to NOLS and get accredited in things from AMGA. What do you think? Vaild pursuit?

That reads like a plan with no goal. Why?

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