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Partner cracklover


Nov 19, 2012, 9:25 AM
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Question about polished limestone - WTF?
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I've done a fair bit of climbing on just about every rock type imaginable, but there's one thing I just don't get: limestone routes with really polished holds.

When I climb, I tend to be all about technique. I'm very good at finding rests, keeping as much weight over my feet as possible, and initiating movement well. As a result, I tend to "sneak" my way through cruxes. Often people will get on a route after watching me do it and say I sandbagged them - they had no idea a certain section was hard, because I made it look easy. This is even on routes near my limit. All that is to say, I think my technique is reasonably solid at the grade I climb (low to mid 5.12 sport).

But, repeatedly, I have found that I just don't seem to have a clue when I get on limestone routes with really polished footholds. It feels like the feet are so slick that any attempt to move my weight around using my feet, as I'd normally do, would just cause my feet to pop. Even just in a stance where I'm using some force of my feet to stay in place, I can feel them buttering off the hold. As a result, it feels like all my weight is on my arms, so the pump clock just ticks down until I fall off.

Anyone who's gotten past this issue have advice to share?

By the way, my go-to shoes are the Anasazi Velcros, which I wear fairly tight. The sensitivity is quite good, and I typically can put a lot of force through them. Of course they are not at all downturned, and do not have a very pointy toe.

Thanks!

GO


marc801


Nov 19, 2012, 10:57 AM
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cracklover wrote:
But, repeatedly, I have found that I just don't seem to have a clue when I get on limestone routes with really polished footholds. It feels like the feet are so slick that any attempt to move my weight around using my feet, as I'd normally do, would just cause my feet to pop. Even just in a stance where I'm using some force of my feet to stay in place, I can feel them buttering off the hold. As a result, it feels like all my weight is on my arms, so the pump clock just ticks down until I fall off.
Have you been climbing in American Fork Canyon recently? I've fallen off of stuff there when I was just standing around trying to sus out the next move.


granite_grrl


Nov 19, 2012, 11:08 AM
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cracklover wrote:
I've done a fair bit of climbing on just about every rock type imaginable, but there's one thing I just don't get: limestone routes with really polished holds.

When I climb, I tend to be all about technique. I'm very good at finding rests, keeping as much weight over my feet as possible, and initiating movement well. As a result, I tend to "sneak" my way through cruxes. Often people will get on a route after watching me do it and say I sandbagged them - they had no idea a certain section was hard, because I made it look easy. This is even on routes near my limit. All that is to say, I think my technique is reasonably solid at the grade I climb (low to mid 5.12 sport).

But, repeatedly, I have found that I just don't seem to have a clue when I get on limestone routes with really polished footholds. It feels like the feet are so slick that any attempt to move my weight around using my feet, as I'd normally do, would just cause my feet to pop. Even just in a stance where I'm using some force of my feet to stay in place, I can feel them buttering off the hold. As a result, it feels like all my weight is on my arms, so the pump clock just ticks down until I fall off.

Anyone who's gotten past this issue have advice to share?

By the way, my go-to shoes are the Anasazi Velcros, which I wear fairly tight. The sensitivity is quite good, and I typically can put a lot of force through them. Of course they are not at all downturned, and do not have a very pointy toe.

Thanks!

GO

That sounds about right. A tighter core will help too, but with really bad feet you need to put in some extra effort to stay on.


Partner cracklover


Nov 19, 2012, 11:24 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
That sounds about right. A tighter core will help too, but with really bad feet you need to put in some extra effort to stay on.

Sorry, I don't follow you - what sounds about right? I'm completely puzzled. I really feel like I have no answers.

GO


granite_grrl


Nov 19, 2012, 11:37 AM
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cracklover wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
That sounds about right. A tighter core will help too, but with really bad feet you need to put in some extra effort to stay on.

Sorry, I don't follow you - what sounds about right? I'm completely puzzled. I really feel like I have no answers.

GO

Your story of climbing on polished limestone.

BTW - it does take some technique to stay on polished limestone. The technique consists of holding your core tighter and not thrashing around.


jomagam


Nov 19, 2012, 11:37 AM
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cracklover wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
That sounds about right. A tighter core will help too, but with really bad feet you need to put in some extra effort to stay on.

Sorry, I don't follow you - what sounds about right? I'm completely puzzled. I really feel like I have no answers.

GO

I think he's saying that climbing on polished holds is hard. IMO that's the type of rock where difficulty increases most between a first ascent and 10 years down the line when the route has been climbed a million times. I've been on routes in Europe where you had to step on the "wrong holds" because those were not as slick as ice just to do a 5.9


Partner cracklover


Nov 19, 2012, 11:39 AM
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marc801 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But, repeatedly, I have found that I just don't seem to have a clue when I get on limestone routes with really polished footholds. It feels like the feet are so slick that any attempt to move my weight around using my feet, as I'd normally do, would just cause my feet to pop. Even just in a stance where I'm using some force of my feet to stay in place, I can feel them buttering off the hold. As a result, it feels like all my weight is on my arms, so the pump clock just ticks down until I fall off.
Have you been climbing in American Fork Canyon recently? I've fallen off of stuff there when I was just standing around trying to sus out the next move.

Never climbed in American Fork. This has happened to me in Rifle, and most recently at Shelf Road on Lats Don't Have Feelings

GO


USnavy


Nov 19, 2012, 8:23 PM
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marc801 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
But, repeatedly, I have found that I just don't seem to have a clue when I get on limestone routes with really polished footholds. It feels like the feet are so slick that any attempt to move my weight around using my feet, as I'd normally do, would just cause my feet to pop. Even just in a stance where I'm using some force of my feet to stay in place, I can feel them buttering off the hold. As a result, it feels like all my weight is on my arms, so the pump clock just ticks down until I fall off.
Have you been climbing in American Fork Canyon recently? I've fallen off of stuff there when I was just standing around trying to sus out the next move.
I almost blew a 5.10b there when I was onsighting 5.11+ at the time. Slippery crap. Their five star routes are two stars when you account for the polish factor. Rifle also has some really polished crap. I hate polished climbing, it simply isint fun. I dont think there is some special technique that makes polished climbing more secure, it is by nature insecure and slippery.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 19, 2012, 8:24 PM)


rsmillbern


Nov 20, 2012, 12:57 AM
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I have found this to be true. Often I try to find a smear off to the side of the foothold and a different body position. Sometimes the move (for me) is not intuitive due to the holds getting slicker over time...

Pretty much anything under 5.11c in Arco is like a greasy pizza box. As well popular routes in the Frankenjura as well are pretty slick.


jomagam


Nov 20, 2012, 6:19 AM
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rsmillbern wrote:
I have found this to be true. Often I try to find a smear off to the side of the foothold and a different body position. Sometimes the move (for me) is not intuitive due to the holds getting slicker over time...

Pretty much anything under 5.11c in Arco is like a greasy pizza box. As well popular routes in the Frankenjura as well are pretty slick.

Add Paklenica to that list.


Partner cracklover


Nov 20, 2012, 9:14 AM
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Sounds like the general consensus is: suck it up Nancy. That's fine, if that's all there is. Not what I'd hoped to hear, of course, but so be it. lol

One last question - anyone think one type of shoe is much better on these super-polished holds? More downturned better? More sensitive better?

GO


shotwell


Nov 20, 2012, 9:29 AM
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cracklover wrote:
Sounds like the general consensus is: suck it up Nancy. That's fine, if that's all there is. Not what I'd hoped to hear, of course, but so be it. lol

One last question - anyone think one type of shoe is much better on these super-polished holds? More downturned better? More sensitive better?

GO

I like to do a couple things to mitigate the difficulties of polish. This works for me on very polished tuff, limestone, and dense sandstone (think Font or South East US.)

1) Clean your shoes. Use a little water and rub them till your hand chatters. Sand them if you're really obsessive.

2) Wear slightly softer shoes than you normally would for the same move. Surface area seems to make a difference on polish contact. Stiffer shoes seem to skate a little, whereas the softer shoes 'melt.' You'll probably need to learn to think and move faster while in control to keep the 'melt' from affecting you.

3) Push harder than you think you need to. The note to focus on keeping a very tight core is critical. There is typically a very small window of 'right' body positions on polish.

4) Most importantly, climb a lot of polished stone. It is really the only way to get used to it. You'll climb smarter and faster.

5) The tips to step on the wrong holds work, sometimes. Sometimes you have to use the polish. If you always try to get around it you'll just short circuit the learning process.


dagibbs


Nov 20, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?


eric_k


Nov 30, 2012, 5:38 PM
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dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?

I am no goeolgist but dont holds get polished because all the crystals in the stone get worn off and there are no more crystals underneth. Thats way some stone types like granite dont polish as easily because there are crystals throughout the stone. So polished limestone is polised for good and I dont think a grinder would help much.

BUT that may be a bunch of BS and it probably is, either way after living and climbing in europe for a while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana and the like soon because the polish factor is beginning to creep up the grades. Even harder routes 12+ are getting polished!

Eric


USnavy


Nov 30, 2012, 5:45 PM
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eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink


guangzhou


Nov 30, 2012, 6:28 PM
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USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.


USnavy


Nov 30, 2012, 10:23 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.
Well maybe you should come visit Hawaii then and indulge in our limitless climbing potential. One could do as I do and just spend six months out of the year on the [continental US] road climbing. That is always a good option.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 30, 2012, 10:23 PM)


camhead


Dec 1, 2012, 7:19 AM
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eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?

I am no goeolgist but dont holds get polished because all the crystals in the stone get worn off and there are no more crystals underneth. Thats way some stone types like granite dont polish as easily because there are crystals throughout the stone. So polished limestone is polised for good and I dont think a grinder would help much.

It was a joke. You just revived a 10-day old thread to show us that you have no sense of humor, and can't spell.


dan2see


Dec 1, 2012, 10:33 AM
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Every popular route on every popular crag will get polished by the millions of feet trampling up the limestone. You can't change that progression. Although the friction will get better as you climb the cliff. So if you can possibly get off the ground, there's a good chance you'll be OK higher up.

Some routes that were hard to get up on, will get to be impossible. You have two choices: keep trying, or leave and try something else.

Think about it this way: What do you do when you encounter any rock move that you just cannot perform? You don't chip or glue! You choose: keep trying, or go away.

The folks I climb with went through this process. After leaving the popular (easy) crags, we ventured onto more and more challenging areas. Over time, most of us learned to climb better, so the harder climbs became the norm. Eventually most of us reach some kind of limitation and that's that.

As for me, I haven't been climbing consistently enough, So I'm not at any kind of plateau. I just try stuff -- it's all hard, it's all fun, it's all good.


marc801


Dec 1, 2012, 3:23 PM
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dan2see wrote:
Every popular route on every popular crag will get polished by the millions of feet trampling up the limestone. You can't change that progression. Although the friction will get better as you climb the cliff. So if you can possibly get off the ground, there's a good chance you'll be OK higher up.

Some routes that were hard to get up on, will get to be impossible. You have two choices: keep trying, or leave and try something else.

Think about it this way: What do you do when you encounter any rock move that you just cannot perform? You don't chip or glue! You choose: keep trying, or go away.
Er, you do realize that you're talking to someone who's been around more than a few blocks a few times and not a newbie, yes?


dan2see


Dec 1, 2012, 4:28 PM
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Quitcherbellyachin' and climb that rock!


Kartessa


Dec 3, 2012, 5:15 AM
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The easiest trick would be to chop the bolts - seems to work around here


superchuffer


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maybe stick to cracks as your name implies? or you could change your name to slimey-limestone-foothold-hater.


(This post was edited by superchuffer on Dec 3, 2012, 10:36 AM)


sbaclimber


Dec 4, 2012, 2:41 AM
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superchuffer wrote:
maybe stick to cracks as your name implies? or you could change your name to slimey-limestone-foothold-hater.
He can't, I've already trademarked that name! Tongue


guangzhou


Dec 4, 2012, 5:36 PM
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sbaclimber wrote:
superchuffer wrote:
maybe stick to cracks as your name implies? or you could change your name to slimey-limestone-foothold-hater.
He can't, I've already trademarked that name! Tongue

I've had the pleasure of climbing some very polished routes in on Yosemite Granite. (Climber Polished, not water polished too.)


guangzhou


Dec 4, 2012, 5:42 PM
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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.
Well maybe you should come visit Hawaii then and indulge in our limitless climbing potential. One could do as I do and just spend six months out of the year on the [continental US] road climbing. That is always a good option.

Are you in the Nave or not? If so, how do you get 6 months a year off to do a road trip? Just curious, 30 days leave per year, can be accumulated to 60 days maximum. Where do the other four months come from?


Gmburns2000


Dec 5, 2012, 6:55 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.
Well maybe you should come visit Hawaii then and indulge in our limitless climbing potential. One could do as I do and just spend six months out of the year on the [continental US] road climbing. That is always a good option.

Are you in the Nave or not? If so, how do you get 6 months a year off to do a road trip? Just curious, 30 days leave per year, can be accumulated to 60 days maximum. Where do the other four months come from?

I'm pretty sure he's out now. He's been road tripping for about a year it seems.


guangzhou


Dec 5, 2012, 5:38 PM
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Mot sure either, he was just commenting on the great health insurance the Navy provides him. Guess he could be retired with full benefits.


Co1urzz


Dec 5, 2012, 5:55 PM
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you have to maintain a connection with your feet, alot of times on polished limestone, you are constantly slipping, and its about continuously moving. further steps to ensure good footwork can be to climb barefoot, which i find to be only comfortable on polished rock.


Gmburns2000


Dec 6, 2012, 2:36 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Mot sure either, he was just commenting on the great health insurance the Navy provides him. Guess he could be retired with full benefits.

actually, from what I understand, you don't need to be retired to have access to various benefits.


USnavy


Dec 6, 2012, 4:56 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.
Well maybe you should come visit Hawaii then and indulge in our limitless climbing potential. One could do as I do and just spend six months out of the year on the [continental US] road climbing. That is always a good option.

Are you in the Nave or not? If so, how do you get 6 months a year off to do a road trip? Just curious, 30 days leave per year, can be accumulated to 60 days maximum. Where do the other four months come from?
I am no longer on active duty, I am a reservist now. I work fulltime by volunteering for active duty opportunities on the off season, and I dont work at all during the on season. The health benefits I was speaking of are provided by the VA, not by the military. Any active duty member who separates active duty under honorable conditions and makes less than the VA's income cap (like $74k a year I think,) qualifies for free healthcare for life at a VA facility. Right now I am working fulltime in an active duty status (but as a reservist,) and when the spring comes around I will stop working and hit the road again. That is one nice benefit of being a reservist, I can pretty much work whenever I want, I can choose what I volunteer for and what I dont. Also, it is not a 60 day max anymore. I think it is 90 or 120 days now.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 6, 2012, 5:05 PM)


guangzhou


Dec 6, 2012, 7:15 PM
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Noted. VA benefits are great, but not as good as some people believe them to be. (I too receive them)


USnavy


Dec 6, 2012, 11:01 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
but not as good as some people believe them to be.
In what way? I am pretty damn psyched that, by immediate appearances, I dont ever have to buy health insurance unless I make six figures. I am very happy about that considering health insurance for the rest of my life may very well cost well over $50,000 with today's prices.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 6, 2012, 11:02 PM)


camrock


Dec 30, 2012, 7:53 PM
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USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.
Well maybe you should come visit Hawaii then and indulge in our limitless climbing potential. One could do as I do and just spend six months out of the year on the [continental US] road climbing. That is always a good option.

Are you in the Nave or not? If so, how do you get 6 months a year off to do a road trip? Just curious, 30 days leave per year, can be accumulated to 60 days maximum. Where do the other four months come from?
I am no longer on active duty, I am a reservist now. I work fulltime by volunteering for active duty opportunities on the off season, and I dont work at all during the on season. The health benefits I was speaking of are provided by the VA, not by the military. Any active duty member who separates active duty under honorable conditions and makes less than the VA's income cap (like $74k a year I think,) qualifies for free healthcare for life at a VA facility. Right now I am working fulltime in an active duty status (but as a reservist,) and when the spring comes around I will stop working and hit the road again. That is one nice benefit of being a reservist, I can pretty much work whenever I want, I can choose what I volunteer for and what I dont. Also, it is not a 60 day max anymore. I think it is 90 or 120 days now.

Can you PM me on this? I just separated in July of last year. (Navy as well). Did my 4, completely honorable, I've never heard of that. (The VA free med)


guangzhou


Dec 31, 2012, 11:42 PM
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camrock wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.
Well maybe you should come visit Hawaii then and indulge in our limitless climbing potential. One could do as I do and just spend six months out of the year on the [continental US] road climbing. That is always a good option.

Are you in the Nave or not? If so, how do you get 6 months a year off to do a road trip? Just curious, 30 days leave per year, can be accumulated to 60 days maximum. Where do the other four months come from?
I am no longer on active duty, I am a reservist now. I work fulltime by volunteering for active duty opportunities on the off season, and I dont work at all during the on season. The health benefits I was speaking of are provided by the VA, not by the military. Any active duty member who separates active duty under honorable conditions and makes less than the VA's income cap (like $74k a year I think,) qualifies for free healthcare for life at a VA facility. Right now I am working fulltime in an active duty status (but as a reservist,) and when the spring comes around I will stop working and hit the road again. That is one nice benefit of being a reservist, I can pretty much work whenever I want, I can choose what I volunteer for and what I dont. Also, it is not a 60 day max anymore. I think it is 90 or 120 days now.

Can you PM me on this? I just separated in July of last year. (Navy as well). Did my 4, completely honorable, I've never heard of that. (The VA free med)

Camrock, I think U.S. Navy might be the only one who has.


JohnCook


Jan 1, 2013, 11:55 AM
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In Europe there are lots of "Selected route" guides, which pick just a few routes from each crag, and all the books seem to pick the same few routes. You don't a book to find the "selected" routes just look for the shiny polished groove up the place, and the heavily worn approach descent paths. Often, within a few yards, are some equally good routes that have become overgrown with lack of use. My favourite crag is limestone, Stoney Middleton in the Peak District. All the top ropeable routes and routes in the "selected" guides are polished to death, the other 300 or so are wonderful. Another problem here is that some of the walls overhang so much that the bottoms never get wet and face south so tend to be warm. The boulderers have polished these sections to a high gloss for the first 15ft. Footwork is absolutely critical. Accurate foot placement, and not shuffling around reduce the slipping risk, as does correct body position. Just a fraction off and you skate!


USnavy


Jan 4, 2013, 3:48 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
camrock wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
USnavy wrote:
eric_k wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
Bring an angle-grinder with you, and take some of the polish off the holds?
while my advice to all american climbers is to get over to places like Ceuse/Suirana a
Eric
That is one option. Or American climbers could just choose one of the 90% of sport routes that arnt polished... Wink

Not all American climbers have a vast and limitless amount of climbing option in the Area. We're not all bless with the wealth of Climbing options Hawaii offers.
Well maybe you should come visit Hawaii then and indulge in our limitless climbing potential. One could do as I do and just spend six months out of the year on the [continental US] road climbing. That is always a good option.

Are you in the Nave or not? If so, how do you get 6 months a year off to do a road trip? Just curious, 30 days leave per year, can be accumulated to 60 days maximum. Where do the other four months come from?
I am no longer on active duty, I am a reservist now. I work fulltime by volunteering for active duty opportunities on the off season, and I dont work at all during the on season. The health benefits I was speaking of are provided by the VA, not by the military. Any active duty member who separates active duty under honorable conditions and makes less than the VA's income cap (like $74k a year I think,) qualifies for free healthcare for life at a VA facility. Right now I am working fulltime in an active duty status (but as a reservist,) and when the spring comes around I will stop working and hit the road again. That is one nice benefit of being a reservist, I can pretty much work whenever I want, I can choose what I volunteer for and what I dont. Also, it is not a 60 day max anymore. I think it is 90 or 120 days now.

Can you PM me on this? I just separated in July of last year. (Navy as well). Did my 4, completely honorable, I've never heard of that. (The VA free med)

Camrock, I think U.S. Navy might be the only one who has.
Yea, just me and the other 10m or so people that visit this webpage every month.

http://www.va.gov/healthbenefits/

But what would I know, it's not like I actually in the Navy or something.


guangzhou


Jan 4, 2013, 8:40 PM
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Actually, that is the issue, you are still in the Navy, even if only part time.

Veterans who are completely separated from the service with perfect health when they separated are not eligible for what you claim is out there. The VA provides services on what they see "as needed."

Medical coverage is based on injuries they can trace back to your service time. I got out of the military with no ailments or injuries. (Mostly by luck maybe) I remember having some people recommend I start visiting sick call to document problems a year before I got out so I could get services after my EST.

If a veteran crossing the road tomorrow gets hit by a car, the VA would come and offer any help, even when they are registered as veterans.

Let's talk when you are no longer on reserve duty. I think you will be surprised at what the VA considers "as needed." You also be surprises when you are placed in a category so low on the entitlement that non of what you write above comes your way.


USnavy


Jan 5, 2013, 2:10 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Veterans who are completely separated from the service with perfect health when they separated are not eligible for what you claim is out there. The VA provides services on what they see "as needed."

Medical coverage is based on injuries they can trace back to your service time. I got out of the military with no ailments or injuries. (Mostly by luck maybe) I remember having some people recommend I start visiting sick call to document problems a year before I got out so I could get services after my EST.
That is completely false. I think you are confused on what officially makes a person a veteran. A person's current affiliation, or lack of affiliation, with the military has no effect on his or her official veteran status. The presence of a DD214 is what officially marks a person a vet. So if I was on active duty, separated and received a DD214, and then rejoined active duty, I would sill be considered a vet, even while back on active duty.

Also, the VA has no idea I am in the reserves. That does not concern them. The reserves do not offer any medical benefits other than I can choose to purchase TriCare at a reduced cost if I wanted to. When I first applied for healthcare and got approved by the VA, I was 100% out and I was not in the reserves. I joined the reserves after I was long approved for VA care.

Anyone who makes less than $30,460 (2012 rate) a year and holds a DD214 with an honorable discharge automatically qualifies for priority group five care. It says right on their website. That means pretty much anyone who gets out of the military without a service connected disability can be placed in priority group five if they meet the income requirements, or priority group eight if they do not.

Here, it says right on their website. "Priority group 5: Nonservice-connected Veterans and noncompensable Service-connected Veterans rated 0%, whose annual income and/or net worth are not greater than the VA financial thresholds." http://www.va.gov/healthbenefits/resources/priority_groups.asp

In any case, I am in group five and I have not had any issues accessing care. Granted I have only used it twice. But when I did use it there were no issues. It was just like I was on active duty. I showed up, showed them my ID, got the care I needed, and walked out. It was as simple as that.

Ultimately when I say "free care for life" what I am really emphasizing is the lack of a need to purchase health insurance to cover rock climbing injuries. Regardless of what priority group you are in, if you require emergency care you will receive it (assuming you meet their ER care requirements on their website). But yes, if you have some chronic condition where you are in the hospital everyday, then you might want to consider getting actual health insurance.

Although I do understand the resource allotment issue. The first appointment I made with the VA took 40 days to get. But the second only took a few days. Apparently the very first appointment takes forever for some reason. The VA's official stance is they aim to get you in with the doctor within 48 hours of requesting an appointment. I have not tested that to verify if it is true or not, but that is what they claim.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 5, 2013, 2:20 AM)


guangzhou


Jan 5, 2013, 2:26 AM
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deleted so we don't go round in circles.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 5, 2013, 3:59 AM)


billcoe_


Jun 24, 2013, 1:37 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Question about polished limestone - WTF? [In reply to]
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I can relate. Chalking the holy crap out of the foot and handholds on super warm days with sweat flying and making the formerly dry chalk a slurry which will dry to harden like cement is what everyone else is trying.

Doesn't work for me. Out of ideas here.


Partner cracklover


Jun 25, 2013, 8:24 AM
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Re: [shotwell] Question about polished limestone - WTF? [In reply to]
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Since billcoe resurrected this thread, I'll highlight what seems like (I can only say seems like, since I haven't tried to put it to the test) the best and most comprehensive advice I got in this thread. It's Shotwell's post quoted here:

shotwell wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Sounds like the general consensus is: suck it up Nancy. That's fine, if that's all there is. Not what I'd hoped to hear, of course, but so be it. lol

One last question - anyone think one type of shoe is much better on these super-polished holds? More downturned better? More sensitive better?

GO

I like to do a couple things to mitigate the difficulties of polish. This works for me on very polished tuff, limestone, and dense sandstone (think Font or South East US.)

1) Clean your shoes. Use a little water and rub them till your hand chatters. Sand them if you're really obsessive.

2) Wear slightly softer shoes than you normally would for the same move. Surface area seems to make a difference on polish contact. Stiffer shoes seem to skate a little, whereas the softer shoes 'melt.' You'll probably need to learn to think and move faster while in control to keep the 'melt' from affecting you.

3) Push harder than you think you need to. The note to focus on keeping a very tight core is critical. There is typically a very small window of 'right' body positions on polish.

4) Most importantly, climb a lot of polished stone. It is really the only way to get used to it. You'll climb smarter and faster.

5) The tips to step on the wrong holds work, sometimes. Sometimes you have to use the polish. If you always try to get around it you'll just short circuit the learning process.

Thanks, Shotwell!

For me, after thinking about it, the three things I think I can do to improve my chances are:

1 - make sure my shoes are really clean. I doubt this will have a large impact, but perhaps some.

2 - Move faster. I have the tendency to get try to get in a restful position and suss out the next sequence - to a fault. I suspect this will help a significant amount.

3 - Don't try to do quite so much with my feet. Finding the balance point is key. I think what I tend to do is feel my feet slipping and instinctively overgrip and stop using my feet. I have to find just how much force I can get out of them, and be happy with that. I suspect this will pay even bigger dividends.

4 - Practice. This would obviously be the biggest winner. I know because I've worked thin slick flaring cracks, and when I started I felt like my feet were nearly useless, and after enough work they felt much much better. Unfortunately, the body position and other subtle changes I learned from that don't seem to have any direct crossover into face climbing. The only crossover is the knowledge that the solution *is* there. My experience tells me it must be.

Cheers,

GO


(This post was edited by cracklover on Jun 25, 2013, 8:25 AM)


kriso9tails


Jul 8, 2013, 2:10 PM
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Maybe this thread is dead already, but whatever.

I used to climb on a lot of polished limestone in Ontario in the same grade range. There were two fairly simple measures for dealing with polished feet which were, oddly enough, almost opposites. It's not radically different from what others have said.

The first is to basically crimp with your feet. I'd imagine the bone on my toe (preferably big toe) aiming straight into the hold and trying to pierce a hole into it. The force has to be going in at the right angle straight into the curve of the hold, or you'll glance off when you try to move. It does require mentally focusing on your placements.

Sometimes, it helps to hit the top front part of the hold with your toe, then roll your foot placement up so that you are jamming your shoe edge right into the point where the hold meets the wall. Then bear down on that f'er and hope it sticks.

The other is to only use the footholds for balance and stability which transferring more wight to your upper body and core.

I guess the last thing is to simply accept that with certain types of limestone, routes just change over time typically getting harder. sometimes new sequences have to be found. Occasionally even a smear or some micronub is still better than the obvious. Limestone sucks in a lot of ways, but it does tend to provide hidden little options for new possibilities. There is the odd sequence for which I've just waited for colder temps and lower humidity hoping some marginal change in conditions would magic me through the sequence.


moose_droppings


Jul 8, 2013, 5:23 PM
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First I've seen of this thread but, I can only reiterate what Shotwell said. First off is clean shoes and slightly scuffed bottoms, like freshly wired brushed. Next I've found that the more surface area I can get on it the better, I drop my heal and get as much rubber on it as i can. Core strength can help distribute your weight to the right holds while holding your body at different angles.

Above all, get through it quickly or get used to taking the fall.


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