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Minor joint pain. Supplements?
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Wade308


Dec 4, 2012, 11:43 AM
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Minor joint pain. Supplements?
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Been getting some joint pain recently. Little bit in the shoulders, but more so in my right ankle. No swelling or anything like that.
Didn't tweak it or doing anything extreme, just started getting sore, especially on rotating and extreme pointing.

Is there any good supplements for joints I could try?
I'd like to stay ahead of this and not let it become a problem.


jomagam


Dec 4, 2012, 6:19 PM
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I use Cosamine DS.


C3L1CA


Dec 5, 2012, 6:42 AM
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I take glucosamine and has seemed to help me. Nohting special, just get a big bottle from Target called Schiff Glucosamine


henry88


Jan 2, 2013, 10:22 PM
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Supplements for arthritis should always consists of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate as they are considered as highly effective for joint pain treatment.


FullertonImages


Jan 7, 2013, 8:37 PM
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I use some stuff from Hammer Nutrition called Tissue Rejuvinator, and it is amazing. I'm tall, lanky and have had various, overlapping joint/tendon problems for most of my life, and I've tried many supplements. This one is by far the best one I've found. It has the standard Glucosamine/Chondroitin that other people have mention, but en it goes beyond that and has a lot more herbal stuff that is traditionally associated with joint health. On top of that, Hammer is a good, well respected company, and uses high quality ingredients. Supplements aren't regulated by anyone, so reputation matters. Otherwise you can end up wasting money on pills claiming a lot more potency than they have.

Tissue Rejivinator has made the difference between me being able to climb or not, helping me finally get over some long standing finger and forearm problems. It's hard to find (some REIs have it or order it online), and it's a bit pricey; but it's worth it. Give it a try, I don't think you'll be disappointed!


healyje


Jan 7, 2013, 8:55 PM
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A high quality turmeric supplement which takes a couple of months to really come into play pretty much covered all my joint pain issues after a decade of too much Advil.


TradEddie


Jan 8, 2013, 10:18 AM
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You do all realize that if any of these supplements were proven to work, they couldn't legally be sold as supplements, they'd have to be classified as drugs?

TE


healyje


Jan 8, 2013, 12:18 PM
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Well, I'm an old guy with a bad shoulder and a bad knee that I've been through the chronic pain mill on for decades. I also have a microbiology background and am decent enough with the pharma/medical/research literature. After a couple of decades of Advil keeping all but the worst of the problem at bay well enough to climb, I ended up being told to get off of it by my doctor. She recommended the Turmeric. I had tried chondroitin compounds over the course of a year and that didn't really do anything significant for me. However, with turmeric (high-grade curcumin), after loading it for ninety days, I was completely free of all joint pain and off the advil for the first time in recent memory.

It is not imaginary or a fluke and there are many well-documented studies on curcurimine you can reference. Sure, some are suspect, commercially-sponsored boondoggles, but most are not.

Check it out for yourself, YMMV...


TradEddie


Jan 8, 2013, 7:46 PM
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I actually agree, but for many of these, calling them supplements (i.e. food) is really pushing the limits.

The FD&C Act defines drugs, in part, by their intended use, as "articles intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease" and "articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals" [FD&C Act, sec. 201(g)(1)].

TE


Neel


Jan 9, 2013, 9:42 PM
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healyje wrote:
A high quality turmeric supplement which takes a couple of months to really come into play pretty much covered all my joint pain issues after a decade of too much Advil.

Good call, i also had positive results with fish oil and MSM.

I found glucosamine did nothing but make my wallet lighter.


jt512


Jan 9, 2013, 10:24 PM
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healyje wrote:
Well, I'm an old guy with a bad shoulder and a bad knee that I've been through the chronic pain mill on for decades. I also have a microbiology background and am decent enough with the pharma/medical/research literature. After a couple of decades of Advil keeping all but the worst of the problem at bay well enough to climb, I ended up being told to get off of it by my doctor. She recommended the Turmeric. I had tried chondroitin compounds over the course of a year and that didn't really do anything significant for me. However, with turmeric (high-grade curcumin), after loading it for ninety days, I was completely free of all joint pain and off the advil for the first time in recent memory.

It is not imaginary or a fluke and there are many well-documented studies on curcurimine you can reference. Sure, some are suspect, commercially-sponsored boondoggles, but most are not.

Check it out for yourself, YMMV...


Since Advil inhibits healing, the improvement you experienced could have simply been due to your discontinuing Advil.

Jay


healyje


Jan 9, 2013, 10:29 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Since Advil inhibits healing, the improvement you experienced could have simply been due to your discontinuing Advil.

Having had a very clear Xray and MRI of the shoulder and knee in the past and seen their state it unfortunately just isn't a matter of 'healing', but rather of mileage.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 9, 2013, 11:14 PM)


jt512


Jan 9, 2013, 10:31 PM
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healyje wrote:
In reply to:
Since Advil inhibits healing, the improvement you experienced could have simply been due to your discontinuing Advil.

Having had very clear Xrays and MRI of the should and knee in the past and seen their state it unfortunately just isn't a matter of 'healing', but rather of mileage.


So?


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 9, 2013, 10:32 PM)


healyje


Jan 9, 2013, 10:33 PM
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So, it's a matter of chronic pain that existed with or without the advil prior to use of turmeric. The advil lessend it, the turmeric largely eliminated it.


jt512


Jan 9, 2013, 10:42 PM
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healyje wrote:
So, it's a matter of chronic pain that existed with or without the advil prior to use of turmeric. The advil lessend it, the turmeric largely eliminated it.


How long did you try going without Advil prior to using tumeric?


healyje


Jan 9, 2013, 10:52 PM
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I'd done several year-long cold turkey stretches with no advil prior to trying the turmeric and it was probably a half a year dry spell before learning about the turmeric and trying it. The point being I'm intimately familiar with the pain levels both off and on the advil and the turmeric is the only thing which has really provided convincing long term relief for the first time to the point I wouldn't be climbing at this point without it.


jt512


Jan 9, 2013, 11:00 PM
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healyje wrote:
I'd done several year-long cold turkey stretches with no advil prior to trying the turmeric and it was probably a half a year dry spell before learning about the turmeric and trying it. The point being I'm intimately familiar with the pain levels both off and on the advil and the turmeric is the only thing which has really provided convincing long term relief for the first time to the point I wouldn't be climbing at this point without it.

Well, that's certainly interesting. Do you know of any controlled clinical trials of tumeric?

Jay


healyje


Jan 9, 2013, 11:16 PM
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curcumin "clinical trials"

In reply to:
Safety and Anti-Inflammatory Activity of Curcumin: A Component of Tumeric (Curcuma longa)
To cite this article:
Nita Chainani-Wu. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. February 2003, 9(1): 161-168. doi:10.1089/107555303321223035.

Published in Volume: 9 Issue 1: July 5, 2004
Full Text PDF (129.7 KB) Full Text PDF with Links (221.2 KB)
Author information
Nita Chainani-Wu, DMD, MPH, MS
Department of Stomatology, University of California, San Francisco, CA
ABSTRACT
Introduction: Tumeric is a spice that comes from the root Curcuma longa, a member of the ginger family, Zingaberaceae. In Ayurveda (Indian traditional medicine), tumeric has been used for its medicinal properties for various indications and through different routes of administration, including topically, orally, and by inhalation. Curcuminoids are components of tumeric, which include mainly curcumin (diferuloyl methane), demethoxycurcumin, and bisdemethoxycurcmin.

Objectives: The goal of this systematic review of the literature was to summarize the literature on the safety and anti-inflammatory activity of curcumin.

Methods: A search of the computerized database MEDLINE™ (1966 to January 2002), a manual search of bibliographies of papers identified through MEDLINE, and an Internet search using multiple search engines for references on this topic was conducted. The PDR for Herbal Medicines, and four textbooks on herbal medicine and their bibliographies were also searched.

Results: A large number of studies on curcumin were identified. These included studies on the antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, antiviral, and antifungal properties of curcuminoids. Studies on the toxicity and anti-inflammatory properties of curcumin have included in vitro, animal, and human studies. A phase 1 human trial with 25 subjects using up to 8000 mg of curcumin per day for 3 months found no toxicity from curcumin. Five other human trials using 1125-2500 mg of curcumin per day have also found it to be safe. These human studies have found some evidence of anti-inflammatory activity of curcumin. The laboratory studies have identified a number of different molecules involved in inflammation that are inhibited by curcumin including phospholipase, lipooxygenase, cyclooxygenase 2, leukotrienes, thromboxane, prostaglandins, nitric oxide, collagenase, elastase, hyaluronidase, monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 (MCP-1), interferon-inducible protein, tumor necrosis factor (TNF), and interleukin-12 (IL-12).

Conclusions: Curcumin has been demonstrated to be safe in six human trials and has demonstrated anti-inflammatory activity. It may exert its anti-inflammatory activity by inhibition of a number of different molecules that play a role in inflammation.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 9, 2013, 11:23 PM)


curvenut


Feb 19, 2013, 8:35 AM
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healyje wrote:
A high quality turmeric supplement which takes a couple of months to really come into play pretty much covered all my joint pain issues after a decade of too much Advil.

Whsich turmeric supplement exaclty are you taking ?

Could I just eat nor meals with turmeric ?


healyje


Feb 19, 2013, 10:09 AM
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Se the link in my post back up aways for what I take, the other good one is 'Turmericforce'. Unless you eat a lot of it I suspect you'd be better off with one of the supplements.


brooklynclimber


Feb 23, 2013, 9:26 PM
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Also, from the National Institutes of Health:



How does it work?
Return to top
The chemicals in turmeric might decrease swelling (inflammation).

Are there safety concerns?
Return to top
Turmeric is LIKELY SAFE when used appropriately by adults.


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/662.html


healyje


Feb 23, 2013, 10:00 PM
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Several thousands of years of Chinese and Indian medicine probably covers the general risk proposition. I and my wife, who's been doing advanced yoga for fifteen years, have found no downsides over the years we've been taking it. YMM certainly V.


brooklynclimber


Feb 23, 2013, 10:05 PM
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I"m looking at it pretty seriously as I've been on advil for a while and want to take a break. Can I ask what dosage you are taking?


jt512


Feb 23, 2013, 10:09 PM
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healyje wrote:
Several thousands of years of Chinese and Indian medicine probably covers the general risk proposition. I and my wife, who's been doing advanced yoga for fifteen years, have found no downsides over the years we've been taking [tumeric]. YMM certainly V.
How is the highlighted phrase pertinent to the fact that neither of you have noticed any adverse effects of tumeric supplementation?

Jay


healyje


Feb 23, 2013, 10:29 PM
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jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
Several thousands of years of Chinese and Indian medicine probably covers the general risk proposition. I and my wife, who's been doing advanced yoga for fifteen years, have found no downsides over the years we've been taking [tumeric]. YMM certainly V.
How is the highlighted phrase pertinent to the fact that neither of you have noticed any adverse effects of tumeric supplementation?

Jay

She deals with the same levels of physical stress and inflammation as climbers do if not more.


jt512


Feb 23, 2013, 11:07 PM
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
Several thousands of years of Chinese and Indian medicine probably covers the general risk proposition. I and my wife, who's been doing advanced yoga for fifteen years, have found no downsides over the years we've been taking [tumeric]. YMM certainly V.
How is the highlighted phrase pertinent to the fact that neither of you have noticed any adverse effects of tumeric supplementation?

Jay

She deals with the same levels of physical stress and inflammation as climbers do if not more.

So it's irrelevant. Neither of you have noticed adverse effects of supplementation. And neither rock climbing nor yoga would be expected to be related to the risk of adverse effects of supplementation.


healyje


Feb 23, 2013, 11:20 PM
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The sage of RC has spoken which, as usual, warrants a complete 'whatever'. Dude, parting a sea of endless semantics with the intellectual prowess of a lion, totally impressive if I say so myself. God only knows how RC'ers ever formed an opinion without your able guidance.


Kartessa


Feb 24, 2013, 12:55 AM
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Actually, it was recommended by a medical doctor for my son to take it to reduce inflammation of muscles for his MD.

It's been hard to sneak supplement capsules to a small child, but between that and the creatine have been making a world of difference in his strength.


onceahardman


Feb 24, 2013, 5:23 AM
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healyje wrote:
The sage of RC has spoken which, as usual, warrants a complete 'whatever'. Dude, parting a sea of endless semantics with the intellectual prowess of a lion, totally impressive if I say so myself. God only knows how RC'ers ever formed an opinion without your able guidance.

Hey, dont sweat it too much. I understand your point. You and your wife are both physicaly active, you have found positive benefit, and no ill effects. I think that was clear.

Maybe I'll even give it a try if I can find it at my local health food store. Glucosamine/Chondroitin does not work for me, and in fact, in two seperate trials for me, correlates with INCREASED shoulder pain, with little or no change in the knee pain for which I was actually taking it.

In my opinion, someone is simply looking to pick a fight. Take heart that he would never do that face to face. Cowardly behavior.


jt512


Feb 24, 2013, 12:46 PM
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onceahardman wrote:

In my opinion, someone is simply looking to pick a fight. Take heart that he would never do that face to face. Cowardly behavior.

You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be.

Jay


onceahardman


Feb 24, 2013, 1:41 PM
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:

In my opinion, someone is simply looking to pick a fight. Take heart that he would never do that face to face. Cowardly behavior.

You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be.

Jay

Well, it's always nice to know I have been granted the entitlement of the right to an opinion by the sagely oracle of RCdotcom.

Let me know if you would ever like to meet face to face to discuss these issues in greater detail.


jt512


Feb 24, 2013, 2:06 PM
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onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:

In my opinion, someone is simply looking to pick a fight. Take heart that he would never do that face to face. Cowardly behavior.

You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be.

Jay

Well, it's always nice to know I have been granted the entitlement of the right to an opinion by the sagely oracle of RCdotcom.

Let me know if you would ever like to meet face to face to discuss these issues in greater detail.

Well, if you get out to SoCal, give me a call.

Jay


onceahardman


Feb 24, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Will do. What's your number?


jt512


Feb 24, 2013, 6:29 PM
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onceahardman wrote:
Will do. What's your number?

I'll PM you.


Partner rgold


Feb 24, 2013, 8:22 PM
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I've got achey shoulders, but nothing I can't live with comfortably without medication. I often wonder whether the years and years of one-arm pullups ended up protecting them or harming them. Almost all of my climbing and most of my bouldering was pretty static, so I almost never shock-loaded the shoulder joint.

For five or more years I've been bothered by hip pain. It isn't a daily thing at all and only usually manifests itself on long walks. I've given glucosamine/chondroiten several long trials with long layoffs in between. Once I've been taking it for 4-6 weeks, there is a noticeable decline in the kind of hip pain I get. Once I'm off it for two or three months, the pain comes back. I've been through several cycles of this now and have begun to think that it works on this condition for me, although I'm well aware of the placebo effect and the studies that indicate its ineffectiveness for the general population.

Now, having ruptured my ACL and torn part of the meniscus, which had to be removed, I'm experiencing some knee pain for high-impact activities (hiking and climbing are ok, running and jumping rope are not). Based on a comment in another thread, I've been trying Zyflamend, which has 220 mg of tumeric in the daily dose but also a whole bunch of other herbal thingies that are supposed to combat inflammation. It may have anti-carcinogenic effects as well; see http://www.mskcc.org/...-care/herb/zyflamend.

The Sloan-Kettering site mentions a few potentially bad drug interactions, all with drugs I've never heard of, but I'd check that list before experimenting with the stuff.

So far, I can't detect any differences from taking the stuff, but it has only been about three weeks. It will be pretty hard to tell, because I could just be getting better as time goes on and I continue to strengthen the affected leg, which is still not at 100% one year out from surgery. (Sigh---the tribulations of healing when you're nearly seventy.) If Zyflamend does seem to work, I'll probably lay off it for half a year or so to see if things get worse without it.


bcrigby


Feb 25, 2013, 10:43 AM
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Turmeric in supplements is often formulated in a special way which increases absorption (incorporation into a phospholipid). Normal absorption of the curcumin (the primary active phytochemical) is only around 5%, but the phospholipid increases absorption significantly.

I would recommend Xyflamend, which is a combination of a number of anti-inflammatory phytochemicals. The benefit of this is that you'll actually improve your recovery from injury, not just mask the pain.

I would recommend against Advil or Tylenol. These merely block a part of the inflammatory response. In the short term, you feel less pain, but it also literally prevents your body from resolving the issue. This means you'll need to keep taking the medication, but you'll never actually get better. IMO, you should focus on improving your inflammatory response so you can heal effectively, which will reduce your pain naturally.

Furthermore, you'll be fighting systemic inflammation, which contributes to nearly every chronic disease the Western world suffers from (e.g., heart disease, cancer, T2 diabetes, obesity, etc.).


healyje


Feb 25, 2013, 12:59 PM
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Re: [bcrigby] Minor joint pain. Supplements? [In reply to]
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I was taking both Xyflamend and Turmericforce, but had to get off of them due to the fact it was discovered I have a kidney stone issue. That's forced me on to a more highly refined version of Curicumin verified to have low oxalate levels.


onceahardman


Feb 25, 2013, 2:27 PM
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Re: [healyje] Minor joint pain. Supplements? [In reply to]
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How long did it take, in your case, to begin making a noticeable difference?


healyje


Feb 25, 2013, 7:56 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Minor joint pain. Supplements? [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
How long did it take, in your case, to begin making a noticeable difference?

It was basically a 90 day transition from a decade of 800mg of Advil a day to the turmeric with better relief. I haven't taken an Advil in the going on five years since.


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