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deltav


Dec 28, 2012, 8:52 AM
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Cinch Issues?
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Has anyone ever had issues with the Cinch failing to catch on big lead falls? I know of someone who just dropped a climber while belaying with a Cinch. I have never had any problems and have not been able to recreate the incident in any configuration other than loading it backwards. FYI, the belayer is emphatic that they loaded it right.
Not looking to start an argument with this thread, just data gathering.


markcarlson


Dec 28, 2012, 10:41 AM
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Re: [deltav] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011. In short, I had just finished the climb and recommended it to some passers-by. The climb is 32m and follows a steep arete with little rope drag. Clipping the chains is tricky and the leader blew it. He fell approx. 15m and the belayer ended up with what he described as rope burns on his hands. I don't think the "burns" were that bad, and he was more concerned that the device slipped so much.

Unfortunately, I did not see the fall, just where he ended up. I imagine there was quite a bit of slack out for clipping, so only a few meters slipped through.

Now that I think about it, it seems odd that the belayer was not lifted off the ground very much, as they looked to be lighter than the climber.


redlude97


Dec 28, 2012, 11:56 AM
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Re: [deltav] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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If you search through old threads on the cinch, you'll see I was a big advocate and used it trouble free for a number of years using the old method of clipping it in. This past summer while belaying someone, I had the cinch slip for the first time. The climber was on lead, with her tie in about 2 feet above the previous bolt. She pumped out and took what should have been a relatively small fall that ended up being closer to 15 ft. It was a somewhat slow fall initially where she kind of slumped into it without actually calling take. I had by right hand with thumb and index finger on the pivot with 3 fingers wrapped around the rope and when she fell my hand gripped down on the rope, but not super tight, expecting the cinch to lock. I think the slipping was cause by the slow fall resulting in the cinch not locking. I ended up with pretty severe burns on my hand before the cinch locked. Haven't used it since and switch to a grigri2. Still miss the super smooth belay with the cinch but I can't trust it any more. Emailed Trango but never got a reply. The new method for setting up the cinch is supposed to make it lock up more reliably but I haven't tried it.


bearbreeder


Dec 28, 2012, 12:33 PM
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Re: [deltav] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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part of it may well be the climber holding the device open too long ... thats one of the biggest issues with any assisted locker whether its the grigri or the smart as well ...

but then i usually use a smart or gri gri anyways

Wink


redlude97


Dec 28, 2012, 12:56 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
part of it may well be the climber holding the device open too long ... thats one of the biggest issues with any assisted locker whether its the grigri or the smart as well ...

but then i usually use a smart or gri gri anyways

Wink
The thing with the cinch though is that you don't really hold it open. There is no cam to hold down like a gri.


bearbreeder


Dec 28, 2012, 1:05 PM
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so if you hold it in the same position you use for slack, and theres no possibility of blocking the locking action ... the rope wont run through?

that should in theory make it "safer" than any autolocking device

there was an accident where the cinch was used for a top belay, but something got blocked and the cinch got locked open

http://www.mountainproject.com/...3-31-12/107536150__3


healyje


Dec 28, 2012, 1:13 PM
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Re: [deltav] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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No device - not an ATC, not a grigri, not a Cinch, nor an Eddy holds falls - belayers hold falls. You should always be able to stop any fall even with the cam completely open/disengaged on an autoblocking device.

There should never be a situation or circumstance where your grip on, and management of, the rope should ever be incapable of holding a fall. Assume otherwise and you will eventually become part of an unhappy statistic.

The bottom line is all such incidents are 'belay issues', not device issues.


JimTitt


Dec 28, 2012, 10:30 PM
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The Cinch certainly has a reputation of virtually unnoticeable wear considerably reducing the braking power.

It is the nature of the design that short falls are held positively and longer ones much less so, the previous advertising by Trango promoted this as a feature.
There are unpublished drop tests which show this is in fact the case and the higher fall-factor tests show in my opinion some distinctly worrying characteristics, the reasons are in the design of the device and nothing to do with operator failure though they are common enough.

There was a longish thread on the theme on one of the German forums describing similar problems and with a number of previously happy users who had become converted to other devices. They are/were banned in several walls in Germany.


healyje


Dec 29, 2012, 12:36 AM
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You should be able to hold a leader fall on a Cinch or grigri holding the device handle open. If you can't, you are always at risk of this kind of incident be there wear, stray debris in the device, or any other reason.


JimTitt


Dec 29, 2012, 1:16 AM
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healyje wrote:
You should be able to hold a leader fall on a Cinch or grigri holding the device handle open. If you can't, you are always at risk of this kind of incident be there wear, stray debris in the device, or any other reason.

You mean "One" surely, there isn´t a chance in hell I´d ever belay with a Cinch.
With a Grigri fully open it functions as a fairly poor belay device but only fairly poor, I tested this once and it is something like half a powerful as an ATC and certainly enough for lowering but really marginal for abseiling. With a Cinch the rope runs virtually straight through with the obvious consequences.


USnavy


Dec 29, 2012, 2:37 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
healyje wrote:
You should be able to hold a leader fall on a Cinch or grigri holding the device handle open. If you can't, you are always at risk of this kind of incident be there wear, stray debris in the device, or any other reason.

You mean "One" surely, there isn´t a chance in hell I´d ever belay with a Cinch.
With a Grigri fully open it functions as a fairly poor belay device but only fairly poor, I tested this once and it is something like half a powerful as an ATC and certainly enough for lowering but really marginal for abseiling. With a Cinch the rope runs virtually straight through with the obvious consequences.
Aside from the fact that the Cinch does in fact start to slip after heavy wear, the device is the best belay device on the market IMO. I have caught over 1,000 lead falls on it, including one 40' near-factor-two fall and I have never had an issue. I have also taken nearly as many lead falls while being belayed on the device. The solution to the wear problem is simple. All you need to do is send the Cinch to Trango for warranty and they will send you a new one.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 29, 2012, 2:38 AM)


healyje


Dec 29, 2012, 5:52 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
You mean "One" surely.

Yeah, that would probably have been the better word, but my point really isn't directed at the Cinch per se so much as at all autoblocking devices. 'One' should be able to catch a fall with the handle pulled open on any of them if you are really 'belaying'.


csproul


Dec 29, 2012, 10:07 AM
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healyje wrote:
You should be able to hold a leader fall on a Cinch or grigri holding the device handle open. If you can't, you are always at risk of this kind of incident be there wear, stray debris in the device, or any other reason.
I can almost assure you that would be really difficult with a Cinch. The rope runs in a very straight one when the handle is open. I doubt it would be a very effective belay device if the cam could not engage. A Grigri would likely work better.


jt512


Dec 29, 2012, 3:33 PM
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markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay


healyje


Dec 29, 2012, 4:56 PM
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Nothing 'inexplicable' about it, these folks weren't belaying as they had abdicated that responsibility to the device which can and does bite you hard when you do this with any auto locking device.

It's pretty fundamental, assume the device may not lock up for some reason and belay accordingly. This is all a direct cost and consequence of bringing climbers up on 'almost always' auto locking devices and not in any way specific to the Cinch.

My father was an old 747 captain and once explained that some accidents were a result of younger pilots being brought up in multiengine planes. Old pilots who started in single engine planes instinctively go for altitude when they sense the slightest problem because if your only engine quits, altitude equals time. Younger pilots lack that instinct, tend to think they can get by on the other engines, and sometimes that bites them hard in the same manner.


billcoe_


Dec 29, 2012, 6:53 PM
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deltav wrote:
Has anyone ever had issues with the Cinch failing to catch on big lead falls? I know of someone who just dropped a climber while belaying with a Cinch. I have never had any problems and have not been able to recreate the incident in any configuration other than loading it backwards. FYI, the belayer is emphatic that they loaded it right.
Not looking to start an argument with this thread, just data gathering.

Pitch some more data our way will ya?

A) How old/worn was the Cinch?

B) What was the rope diameter?

C) How long had the belayer been climbing and what was his approx skill level?

Cinches wear much faster than Grigris as far as I can tell, and not many folks are into replacing the roll pin that carries most of the wear burden. Since we are on the airplane allusions, much like the old pilots who would routinely do a pre-flight inspection, have any of you recently seen or known of many (any?) to really check their gear? Back in the day, people would often run their fingers over their entire rope. Don't see that any more.


billcoe_


Dec 29, 2012, 7:03 PM
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repost from couple years back:

Love the Cinch for belaying. However, like all mechanical things, they wear. My friend Stan Miller, who probably uses his Cinch as much or more than anyone on this board, has shared his method of replacing the Dowel Pin that is the main wear point. Allowing the Dowel pin to get too low will allow faster wear on the body. As Stan is not just a better climber, but much smarter than me, his replacement went much better. So I'll share Stans routine on this.

Here's a newer one, this is the way the dowel pin is supposed to look. ie, new.

You can see that as the pin wears, the metal off to the left of the pin wears as well. Putting a new dowel pin in there reduces the wear on the surrounding base metal.


Stans, with some markings pointing things out.

I figured I'd just grab our little press at work and use the new dowel pin to replace the old without doing anything to the existing jig. This is called laziness. My son had jigged up some PDFE for a job, which I took about 3 seconds to blow out. Dohh. Furthermore, as it wasn't straight, I actually blew a few thousands of the edge of the Cinch where the rope will be running away. You can see that error where the metal isn't flush to the pin in the last pic.


Stan had said that the pin came out with very little pressure.


Tore the jig out and hammered the wood in half with a hammer and a screwdriver, then used the PDFE to support the Cinch.
Out with the old and in with the new.


Gear notes:

Cheapo press.
5/16 x 3/4 Dowel pin
Wear reading glasses, not safety glasses so you can see what you are doing.

I have extra dowel pins if you want to try this yourself, ask me for one if you see me out and about. You can easily get a 5/16" x 3/4" long dowel pin at any hardware store as well.

Back on track. What I haven't been able to correlate is what kind of grip/strength reduction is achieved in the Cinch at what level of wear. Certainly there is some, in fact, mine would not grip well rappelling a single rope if it was a thinner one (and had a slick dry coating applied too). So I could see a worn dowel pin and a brand new thin dry coated rope being a bad combo to hold a whipper. You would most certainly get the rope running through the device and zipping through your hands, and if you were not wearing gloves, it would be very painful, I don't care what your skill level of belaying was.

Give us the full Paul Harvey and let us know: "the rest of the story, Good day".


jt512


Dec 29, 2012, 7:22 PM
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healyje wrote:
Nothing 'inexplicable' about it, these folks weren't belaying as they had abdicated that responsibility to the device which can and does bite you hard when you do this with any auto locking device.

It's pretty fundamental, assume the device may not lock up for some reason and belay accordingly.

The problem is that if the device does not lock up, there may be no reasonable way to belay "accordingly," that is, in a manner that would stop the fall. There are lots of climbers harboring the illusion, for instance, that if they were to thread a Grigri (I) backward that they could catch a fall. They're wrong. A top rope fall? Maybe. A lead fall of any significance? No. The device simply does not provide enough braking force (or force multiplication) in this configuration. I'm no expert on the Cinch, but I suspect that there are situations, perhaps rare, in which the device does not lock and does not provide sufficient braking force to enable the belayer to stop the fall.

Jay


shotwell


Dec 29, 2012, 7:43 PM
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jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
Nothing 'inexplicable' about it, these folks weren't belaying as they had abdicated that responsibility to the device which can and does bite you hard when you do this with any auto locking device.

It's pretty fundamental, assume the device may not lock up for some reason and belay accordingly.

The problem is that if the device does not lock up, there may be no reasonable way to belay "accordingly," that is, in a manner that would stop the fall. There are lots of climbers harboring the illusion, for instance, that if they were to thread a Grigri (I) backward that they could catch a fall. They're wrong. A top rope fall? Maybe. A lead fall of any significance? No. The device simply does not provide enough braking force (or force multiplication) in this configuration. I'm no expert on the Cinch, but I suspect that there are situations, perhaps rare, in which the device does not lock and does not provide sufficient braking force to enable the belayer to stop the fall.

Jay

I bought a Cinch after one was involved in an accident that I was involved in the rescue for. I played with it and tried really hard to learn what the failure modes for it are. I found a number of ways to make the device slip, some of them that are easy to avoid and others that are quite difficult. The device seemed very finicky to me; it requires a very specific orientation to be used safely. Simply stumbling as a belayer could put you in a bad situation.

In the end, I decided that I was totally unwilling to accept the risk that came along with the device after giving it a fair chance. To each their own, but I found it is easier to mitigate the failure modes of the GriGri (1 or 2.) I would far rather belay off of a Munter, an ATC, a GriGri, or a Sticht plate than a Cinch. Of course, all devices have failure modes; I just don't like how easy I found it to be in a failure mode with the Cinch. Just my opinion; flame on.

To address opinion of 'you should be able to make the catch regardless,' this isn't realistic with the Cinch cam design. You have a better chance with the GriGri or Eddy; I still wouldn't want to try it.

BTW, if anyone wants to buy a Cinch with very little wear, let me know Unsure.


healyje


Dec 29, 2012, 9:16 PM
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jt512 wrote:
There are lots of climbers harboring the illusion, for instance, that if they were to thread a Grigri (I) backward that they could catch a fall. They're wrong.

They're not if they know how to belay. There isn't an autoblocking device made I couldn't hold a leader fall just fine with the device held open.


(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 29, 2012, 9:18 PM)


potreroed


Dec 29, 2012, 9:40 PM
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healyje wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
You mean "One" surely.

Yeah, that would probably have been the better word, but my point really isn't directed at the Cinch per se so much as at all autoblocking devices. 'One' should be able to catch a fall with the handle pulled open on any of them if you are really 'belaying'.

But don't forget that strange stuff happens, like in my accident, where my belayer was knocked out cold. Msr. Gri gri saved the day.


healyje


Dec 29, 2012, 9:59 PM
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Ed, I'm not arguing against the use of 'almost always' autoblocking devices, I'm simply stating that if you abdicate responsibility for belaying to such devices you're asking for trouble.

On the other hand, for every freak save like yours there are probably thousands of climbers dropped using them.


jt512


Dec 29, 2012, 11:20 PM
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healyje wrote:
There isn't an autoblocking device made I couldn't hold a leader fall just fine with the device held open.

Can you explain how you would do that, say with a grogri 1 held open and a slick new 10.0 mm rope, with a significant fall factor and a 170 lb climber. Also: you don't know in advance that the grigri is being held open.

Albeit this is a hypothetical, but it's your claim.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 29, 2012, 11:25 PM)


healyje


Dec 29, 2012, 11:24 PM
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Pretty simple, just brake over the thigh - it ain't rocket science.


jt512


Dec 29, 2012, 11:28 PM
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healyje wrote:
Pretty simple, just brake over the thigh - it ain't rocket science.

Sorry, I was editing my post while you were responding.

I don't know what you mean by "braking over the thigh." I do not believe that the little bit of friction you could get over your thigh is going to be enough to stop a fall with the little help you're going to get from a wide open grigri and slick rope.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 29, 2012, 11:29 PM)


healyje


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More than adequate.


jt512


Dec 30, 2012, 12:12 AM
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healyje wrote:
More than adequate.

What minimum braking force do you believe that a held-open braking-assist belay device (especially with a thin, slick rope) provides?

Jay


JimTitt


Dec 30, 2012, 12:44 AM
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jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
More than adequate.

What minimum braking force do you believe that a held-open braking-assist belay device (especially with a thin, slick rope) provides?

Jay

That´s easy, I´ve just pull-tested some. A quick and dirty test as I´m not going to set-up the standard pulling angle that is usually used so this one is straight through and the values are a bit higher than usual, probably ca.20%.
Used 10mm rope, I don´t own any thin single ropes.

Ratio of braking force to hand force (force multiplication).

Cinch 1.3:1
GriGri 4.2:1
For comparison:-
ATC XP Low friction mode 6:1
ATCXP High friction mode 7.1:1

I haven´t a Faders Sum available but on that the rope does go straight through without impediment so it would be even worse than the Cinch which puts a slight kink in.


healyje


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More than enough in combination with the braking over the thigh.


jt512


Dec 30, 2012, 1:13 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
More than adequate.

What minimum braking force do you believe that a held-open braking-assist belay device (especially with a thin, slick rope) provides?

Jay

That´s easy, I´ve just pull-tested some. A quick and dirty test as I´m not going to set-up the standard pulling angle that is usually used so this one is straight through and the values are a bit higher than usual, probably ca.20%.
Used 10mm rope, I don´t own any thin single ropes.

Ratio of braking force to hand force (force multiplication).

Cinch 1.3:1
GriGri 4.2:1
For comparison:-
ATC XP Low friction mode 6:1
ATCXP High friction mode 7.1:1

I haven´t a Faders Sum available but on that the rope does go straight through without impediment so it would be even worse than the Cinch which puts a slight kink in.

JIm, by any chance do have, or can you determine, the force multiplication factor for an old-school ATC-dash-nothing with a 10-mm rope?

Jay


healyje


Dec 30, 2012, 2:55 AM
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You guys can run all the math and drop tests you want, but in the end it's a pretty Edisonian, real world, you-can-do-it-or-you-can't proposition and I can assure you it's no problem with a rope down to about a 9.8 or so. Below that down to about an 8.8 I'd probably start restricting devices down to the grigri2 and Eddy for still being able to do it.


JimTitt


Dec 30, 2012, 3:19 AM
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First the disclaimer!
With belay plate tests you need to do them absolutely identically as the angle between the braking strand and the loaded strand is critical, use the same rope all the time as well and the same speed. Obviously you can only accurately compare devices in the same test so comparing different tests is a bit of a lottery though generally the ATC in its various forms appears somewhere so gives a sort-of benchmark.

The original ATC has been tested quite a lot though, the DAV drop tests gave a coefficient of 6.8:1 and the CAI (the Italians) got 7:1. Both of these are higher than I got (5.8:1) but they used lower hand forces than I did which changes things a bit and they are drop tests not pull tests which I and BD used.
I get substantially the same results for an original ATC and an XP used in the low friction mode.


deltav


Dec 30, 2012, 6:58 AM
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Re: [deltav] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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OK here is some more information:
The device was 1-2 years old
Minimal wear on the device
The belayer has 3-4 years experience with no record of climbing related mistakes

For those of you who claim that you can hold a fall with an assisted locking device loaded backwards; have you actually tried this? I have, and find it extremely difficult to do so even in a top top setting. I imagine I couldn't even come close in a lead fall...

Those of you who have been able to recreate such issues, can you be more specific as to how?

Thanks,


lonequail


Dec 30, 2012, 7:10 AM
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I had a Cinch not properly lock on me several years ago. The Cinch was relatively new and not worn.

The incident was in a gym, the leader was on a near horizontal roof a few feet out from his last clip. I watched him get sketchy, knew he was coming off and I was ready for the catch. The rope pulled through maybe 20 feet before locking up, fortunately still off the deck. As this happened I grasped harder with my break hand and got some rope burns. Note that I am positive that my break hand was completely on the rope, not on the device or interfering with the proper function of the device, and it was positioned below the device. I’ve climbed for a long time (well before active belay devices were available) and instinctively bring my hand down to catch falls.

After playing with the Cinch I see how this is possible. The situation:

• The device is rotated 90 degrees clockwise from its fall catch position
• The belayer’s break hand is low
• The face plate is in the position rotated clockwise, not in the locked position

With this setup, the rope can run straight through the slot without going around the pin, and the plate does not pinch the rope. Unless there is an action, such as rope friction, it is possible for the devise and the face plate to stay in this configuration and not lock up! The belayer’s break hand can keep the face plate from rotating and pinching the rope. Note that for my incident, the fall was soft without a jerk that might have rotated the device and made it lock up.

To avoid this failure mode, the belayer would need to be sure that the device was always rotated counterclockwise, as it is when loaded and locking the rope. However, the realities of belaying are that the device will flop around in different positions as the belayer gives rope, takes in slack, and prepares for a fall. Alternatively, if the belayer were to bring their hand up (not down) in the event of a fall, the device would rotate counterclockwise and lock. However, this is counter intuitive, not standard practice, and relies completely on the action of the device rather than (at least the backup of) the belayer’s break hand below the device.

Diagrams/photos are probably needed for a full explanation – maybe later. It’s probably impossible to know if this action was the problem in my incident, or if something else happened. Regardless, my later experiments convinced me that this failure mode is possible. I do not trust the Cinch and will not use one again.


healyje


Dec 30, 2012, 3:05 PM
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deltav wrote:
For those of you who claim that you can hold a fall with an assisted locking device loaded backwards; have you actually tried this? I have, and find it extremely difficult to do so even in a top top setting. I imagine I couldn't even come close in a lead fall..,

Let me be clear, no one is going to stop a fall on a free-running autoblocking device with just their hands - it isn't going to happen. In order to stop a fall you have to have the ingrained instinct of braking falls over your lower hip / upper thigh regardless of the belay device in use. The lack of that instinct isn't so much generational as device-driven. If you come up learning on autoblocking devices as your primary belay device you are just not likely to develop such an ingrained instinct.


deltav


Dec 30, 2012, 4:34 PM
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I know what you mean and I still don't think it is really possible without friction from some sort of device.


csproul


Dec 30, 2012, 4:51 PM
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
There are lots of climbers harboring the illusion, for instance, that if they were to thread a Grigri (I) backward that they could catch a fall. They're wrong.

They're not if they know how to belay. There isn't an autoblocking device made I couldn't hold a leader fall just fine with the device held open.
[:roll:]


jt512


Dec 30, 2012, 4:54 PM
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healyje wrote:
deltav wrote:
For those of you who claim that you can hold a fall with an assisted locking device loaded backwards; have you actually tried this? I have, and find it extremely difficult to do so even in a top top setting. I imagine I couldn't even come close in a lead fall..,

Let me be clear, no one is going to stop a fall on a free-running autoblocking device with just their hands - it isn't going to happen. In order to stop a fall you have to have the ingrained instinct of braking falls over your lower hip / upper thigh regardless of the belay device in use. The lack of that instinct isn't so much generational as device-driven. If you come up learning on autoblocking devices as your primary belay device you are just not likely to develop such an ingrained instinct.

No one is going to stop a fall on a free-running Cinch by braking over their hip either. As Jim's numbers show, an open Cinch is essentially no belay device at all.

Jay


danabart


Dec 30, 2012, 5:15 PM
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I think you're off on this one Joe. I've done plenty of hips belays, caught leader falls with them and so on. Consider the hand position in which these devices are used. If one of these auto whatevers is threaded wrong or open for some reason, the belayer is not going to be able to hold the rope in a way that is equivalent to a properly done hip belay. Wouldn't be enough friction and the wrist would not be in a position of strength.


healyje


Dec 30, 2012, 5:29 PM
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I brake over my hip/leg on all falls regardless of device type and I can assure you it's enough to stop a fall reliably regardless of anyone's numbers. We've seen the numbers / drop test business not being aligned with reality on the rope-slippage-through-devices issue. I've held endless long and hard falls, including FF2 falls, without gloves over thirty-eight years and have never experienced any significant rope slippage of any kind.


JimTitt


Dec 31, 2012, 12:25 AM
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However using your personal experience as a bench mark to either design equipment or recommend techniques is neither desirable nor sensible.
The various hand strength tests take of nescessity only a sample of the population and have to use some kind of analysis to provide a solution which works for most people, not all. The most commonly used sample (K & K Mauthner) shows a wide range of abilities and depending on whether you use the average with a standard deviation (DAV/Randelzhofer) or the better 95% of the population (CAI) we get a range in which most are operating. It is clearly stated that there are no limits outside this range (obviously 0 is really the lower limit).
So we work with a solution which applies to nearly everybody, not an elitist one which few can achieve, I personally can hold nearly 3 times the value used by the CAI and twice that from the DAV but don´t expect everybody else to be able to do so.
Somewhere out in the world there will may be someone who can stop a fall just holding the rope in one hand but this doesn´t mean we should ALL belay with this method since we would end up with a climbing population of just one person.
The climbing community could use your position of "I can do it so everybody else must be able to" by looking at Adam Ondra and saying "he climbs 5.15 so scrap all routes below this grade", a position equally as stupid and unreasonable as yours.


healyje


Dec 31, 2012, 4:18 AM
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There is absolutely nothing whatsoever special about my hand strength. If anything I'd guess I'm on the light side of the bell curve. In fact, there's nothing exceptional at all around what I'm saying. What I can do, however, and do fast and reliably by instinct, is brake a fall over my hip / thigh such that my hand ends up 180 degrees around behind the top of my thigh.

My main point is braking falls over the hip / thigh in that manner is essentially no longer done or practiced which I consider quite unfortunate in a world of 'almost always' autoblocking devices. If you delegate the braking function to an autoblocking device 100% of the time and the device can't reliably autoblock 100% of the time (for whatever reason) then it's hard to escape the conclusion you're gambling.

Let's put it this way, how often do you take your brake hand off the rope when a partner is resting on your grigri? Hopefully never, because your hand is backing up the blocked device. Not braking falls over your hip / thigh means during the fall there is no backup to the device catching the fall - it either works or it doesn't and if it doesn't someone's going for a ride.

Personally, being old, I just don't trust any device that much.


(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 31, 2012, 4:20 AM)


JimTitt


Dec 31, 2012, 9:20 AM
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Curiously enough the hip belay has never been in use in Europe, at least I´ve never seen it described or used, when I started it was a shoulder belay which died out rapidly except for top-roping and the waist belay which was the standard in the mid-sixties. Neither of course being realistically suitable as a back-up strategy for any kind of device.
The issue of residual braking force for the various types of device is of interest since clearly an unexpected drop in braking performance is very likely to have severe consequences, some designers are bothered about this and some clearly not. The solution is more likely to be a technical one since most of the current designs could at least be considerably improved with little effort, teaching generations of climbers another technique is unlikely to be a great success.

Happy New Year!


Kinobi


Jan 4, 2013, 5:44 AM
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myusername


Jan 4, 2013, 7:16 AM
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Kinobi wrote:
Provided that I am the distributor of the Cinch in Italy.
Provided that my opinion are not necessarly the same as Trango's.
Provided that I have done two videos on how to use the Cinch, that have seen about 40K times.

Kinobi's alternate video instruction

http://www.trango.it/video/usarecinchweb.mov

Looks scary to me. I'm thinking the official Trango video is probably best.


patto


Jan 4, 2013, 9:40 AM
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healyje's thighs:


healyje's thighs:


Seriously though. Braking around the thigh really doesn't add that much friction. Anybody who thinks they can hold the several hundred kg of a severe fall in their hands without a proper friction device is kidding themselves.


(This post was edited by patto on Jan 4, 2013, 9:44 AM)


Partner cracklover


Jan 4, 2013, 10:49 AM
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lonequail wrote:
I had a Cinch not properly lock on me several years ago. The Cinch was relatively new and not worn.

The incident was in a gym, the leader was on a near horizontal roof a few feet out from his last clip. I watched him get sketchy, knew he was coming off and I was ready for the catch. The rope pulled through maybe 20 feet before locking up, fortunately still off the deck. As this happened I grasped harder with my break hand and got some rope burns. Note that I am positive that my break hand was completely on the rope, not on the device or interfering with the proper function of the device, and it was positioned below the device. I’ve climbed for a long time (well before active belay devices were available) and instinctively bring my hand down to catch falls.

After playing with the Cinch I see how this is possible. The situation:

• The device is rotated 90 degrees clockwise from its fall catch position
• The belayer’s break hand is low
• The face plate is in the position rotated clockwise, not in the locked position

With this setup, the rope can run straight through the slot without going around the pin, and the plate does not pinch the rope. Unless there is an action, such as rope friction, it is possible for the devise and the face plate to stay in this configuration and not lock up! The belayer’s break hand can keep the face plate from rotating and pinching the rope. Note that for my incident, the fall was soft without a jerk that might have rotated the device and made it lock up.

To avoid this failure mode, the belayer would need to be sure that the device was always rotated counterclockwise, as it is when loaded and locking the rope. However, the realities of belaying are that the device will flop around in different positions as the belayer gives rope, takes in slack, and prepares for a fall. Alternatively, if the belayer were to bring their hand up (not down) in the event of a fall, the device would rotate counterclockwise and lock. However, this is counter intuitive, not standard practice, and relies completely on the action of the device rather than (at least the backup of) the belayer’s break hand below the device.

Diagrams/photos are probably needed for a full explanation – maybe later. It’s probably impossible to know if this action was the problem in my incident, or if something else happened. Regardless, my later experiments convinced me that this failure mode is possible. I do not trust the Cinch and will not use one again.

Yikes! Thanks for sharing the only actual first-hand example of the failure in this thread, along with your analysis.

GO


healyje


Jan 4, 2013, 1:53 PM
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patto wrote:
Seriously though. Braking around the thigh really doesn't add that much friction. Anybody who thinks they can hold the several hundred kg of a severe fall in their hands without a proper friction device is kidding themselves.

You'd actually not want big thighs or hands. You want a sharper bending surface around the top of your thigh and you don't want your hand so large you can't bring it around behind your thigh.

But seriously, though, one of us actually has experience holding lots of long and hard leader falls with no friction device at all and one of us is talking out their ass.


patto


Jan 4, 2013, 3:09 PM
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I've never had the experience a catching whipper fall from an elephant, but I know it isn't going to work out well.

Seriously though, not having experience in something (catching big falls without a functional friction device) ,does not mean somebody is "talking out of their ass".

I'm sure I've agreed with you on other topics, I'm sure you have alot of good experience to contribute to the discussion. But this time just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean im talking out of my ass.


healyje


Jan 4, 2013, 3:33 PM
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patto wrote:
I've never had the experience a catching whipper fall from an elephant, but I know it isn't going to work out well.

Seriously though, not having experience in something (catching big falls without a functional friction device) ,does not mean somebody is "talking out of their ass".

I'm sure I've agreed with you on other topics, I'm sure you have alot of good experience to contribute to the discussion. But this time just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean im talking out of my ass.

Well, the problem I have here is you keep making assertions as to what is or is not possible or what will or will not work out well when you have no experience at all in the matter. I've held lots of really hard lead falls with no belay device whatsoever and with no rope slippage and know exactly how much friction is provided by the body braking I use. It's not a 'sort of' or 'kind of' or 'maybe' sort of deal and not one that is too painful or unreliable - if it was I wouldn't have used it then or still occasionally now.

In short, belay devices are a convenience, they are in no way necessary. It's an entirely modern illusion that they are somehow necessary to a 'safe' belay.


csproul


Jan 4, 2013, 5:22 PM
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So I can envision stopping a fall without a device using a hip belay. Can you better explain how you gain enough friction to stop a leader fall should a cinch or any other belay device fail? So the rope is running through the Cinch and it doesn't lock and you can provide enough friction with the rope running out the (non-functional) belay device and then behind your thigh? Can you show us a picture of how this works? I admit that I'm extremely skeptical, but as you say...I've never tried it, but I'd love to see it done.


USnavy


Jan 4, 2013, 11:53 PM
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jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.

billcoe_ wrote:
repost from couple years back:

Love the Cinch for belaying. However, like all mechanical things, they wear. My friend Stan Miller, who probably uses his Cinch as much or more than anyone on this board, has shared his method of replacing the Dowel Pin that is the main wear point. Allowing the Dowel pin to get too low will allow faster wear on the body. As Stan is not just a better climber, but much smarter than me, his replacement went much better. So I'll share Stans routine on this.




I figured I'd just grab our little press at work and use the new dowel pin to replace the old without doing anything to the existing jig. This is called laziness. My son had jigged up some PDFE for a job, which I took about 3 seconds to blow out. Dohh. Furthermore, as it wasn't straight, I actually blew a few thousands of the edge of the Cinch where the rope will be

Tore the jig out and hammered the wood in half with a hammer and a screwdriver, then used the PDFE to support the Cinch.
Out with the old and in with the new.


Cheapo press.
5/16 x 3/4 Dowel pin
Wear reading glasses, not safety glasses so you can see what you are doing.

I have extra dowel pins if you want to try this yourself, ask me for one if you see me out and about. You can easily get a 5/16" x 3/4" long dowel pin at any hardware store as well.

Back on track. What I haven't been able to correlate is what kind of grip/strength reduction is achieved in the Cinch at what level of wear. Certainly there is some, in fact, mine would not grip well rappelling a single rope if it was a thinner one (and had a slick dry coating applied too). So I could see a worn dowel pin and a brand new thin dry coated rope being a bad combo to hold a whipper. You would most certainly get the rope running through the device and zipping through your hands, and if you were not wearing gloves, it would be very painful, I don't care what your skill level of belaying was.

Give us the full Paul Harvey and let us know: "the rest of the story, Good day".
You could spend all day doing that. Or you could just send it to Trango and get a new one. The second and third generation pins are made out of forged steel as opposed to rolled steel in the first gen models.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 4, 2013, 11:54 PM)


healyje


Jan 5, 2013, 12:09 AM
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My version of hip belay is done with the rope from the leader going through a single non-locking biner on the harness and then the rope travels back around my hips. The rope path rides below the top point of your hip bones by about an inch and a half. In the case of a fall, your brake hand basically plunges to your upper inner thigh (butt of palm first, palm turned out). With that setup, holding a lead fall is plenty solid due to the friction of both hips.

In the scenario we're discussing the bends through the autoblocking device substitutes for some, but not all, of one hip's worth of friction. But in this case you don't brake around your hip because it's not tight enough a radious. Instead, you brake across the top of your upper thigh just below your butt cheek. You pick up about 160-170 degrees of wrap over the tighter radius around your thigh.

In a fall, rather than plunging your hand below your crotch in front as you do with a hip belay, you do close to the same, only behind you, while at the same time rotating your body ninety degrees or so towards the side of your brake hand and leaning back and bracing hard against the foot now pointing at the leader.

All of those features of the belay have to happen at the same time - the braking behind the thigh, the turn to the brake hand side, and the lean back and bracing against the now front foot. Also, if, how, and where you flake the rope can make it harder or easier to execute it as well; I tend to flake the rope out well to my brake hand side and slightly behind me.


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 5, 2013, 12:15 AM)


jt512


Jan 5, 2013, 10:25 AM
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USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.


That is a case of clear-cut misuse, the mechanism of failure is known. What has always bugged me about the Cinch is, unlike the Grigri, there is evidence of an unknown failure mode: reported cases of unsafe amounts of rope slippage that could not be explained by misuse, and that Trango could not replicate. You can't prevent a failure if you can't determine why it occurred. Such failures are then essentially random occurrences, and getting belayed with a Cinch is like buying a lottery ticket, only you don't want your number to come to up.

Jay


csproul


Jan 5, 2013, 11:48 AM
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healyje wrote:
My version of hip belay is done with the rope from the leader going through a single non-locking biner on the harness and then the rope travels back around my hips. The rope path rides below the top point of your hip bones by about an inch and a half. In the case of a fall, your brake hand basically plunges to your upper inner thigh (butt of palm first, palm turned out). With that setup, holding a lead fall is plenty solid due to the friction of both hips.

In the scenario we're discussing the bends through the autoblocking device substitutes for some, but not all, of one hip's worth of friction. But in this case you don't brake around your hip because it's not tight enough a radious. Instead, you brake across the top of your upper thigh just below your butt cheek. You pick up about 160-170 degrees of wrap over the tighter radius around your thigh.

In a fall, rather than plunging your hand below your crotch in front as you do with a hip belay, you do close to the same, only behind you, while at the same time rotating your body ninety degrees or so towards the side of your brake hand and leaning back and bracing hard against the foot now pointing at the leader.

All of those features of the belay have to happen at the same time - the braking behind the thigh, the turn to the brake hand side, and the lean back and bracing against the now front foot. Also, if, how, and where you flake the rope can make it harder or easier to execute it as well; I tend to flake the rope out well to my brake hand side and slightly behind me.
In the case of the non-functioning Cinch, there is vitally no "bends through the device" and there would be very little friction provided by the device, so you'd be stopping the fall with just one hip/thigh. Maybe you can do it, I wouldn't know. I'd love to see it happen.


healyje


Jan 5, 2013, 1:35 PM
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Re: [jt512] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

Just a note that a friend who is quite accomplished was just following two linked pitches on the full length of a skinny '70 and fell about fifteen feet above the anchor. The surprising amount of rope stretch, even with a 'good' belay', resulted in a somewhat unexpected fall length and a broken ankle. Sounds like if you have a full skinny 70 out and a low crux, then the belay needs to be tighter than what would be otherwise be considered normal.


jt512


Jan 5, 2013, 1:39 PM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
[No, actually, USNavy wrote that.]

Just a note that a friend who is quite accomplished was just following two linked pitches on the full length of a skinny '70 and fell about fifteen feet above the anchor. The surprising amount of rope stretch, even with a 'good' belay', resulted in a somewhat unexpected fall length and a broken ankle. Sounds like if you have a full skinny 70 out and a low crux, then the belay needs to be tighter than what would be otherwise be considered normal.

The comment you quoted should be attributed to USNavy, not me.

Jay


bearbreeder


Jan 5, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:

Just a note that a friend who is quite accomplished was just following two linked pitches on the full length of a skinny '70 and fell about fifteen feet above the anchor. The surprising amount of rope stretch, even with a 'good' belay', resulted in a somewhat unexpected fall length and a broken ankle. Sounds like if you have a full skinny 70 out and a low crux, then the belay needs to be tighter than what would be otherwise be considered normal.

20 feet even with a tight belay on a full 70m ...

assuming 10% stretch ...

when climbing full length pitches, dont fall in the first 20 feet when following ...

if this is a problem, set up an intermediate belay to minimize the stretch

as to the cinch ... i wasnt aware till recently that trango recommends you set it up upside down ... something to look for when doing partner checks in the gym ...

but then i use a grigri, smart or tuber anyways Wink

http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=lkOVssfihn0


USnavy


Jan 6, 2013, 12:55 AM
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Re: [jt512] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.


What has always bugged me about the Cinch is, unlike the Grigri, there is evidence of an unknown failure mode: reported cases of unsafe amounts of rope slippage that could not be explained by misuse, and that Trango could not replicate.
What reported cases? Is it possible these reported cases of an unknown failure mode are actually just instances of the belayer failing to properly grip the brake strand and prevent inadvertent jaming of the cam open by means of a second hand or the rock pressing on the cam? If you look at the Cinch it is pretty easy to understand how the device functions, you dont need to be an engineer to understand it. The basic design is fairly simple and foolproof. I cannot possibly fathom anyway the device could fail to lock if the there is sufficient resistance on the brake end of the rope and the cam is free to move. The device functions the same way as the GriGri. Drag on the brake strand initiates the cam, which pinches the rope. Unless there is something restricting the movement of the cam, it is not physically possible for the cam to fail to close if there is drag on the brake strand. So I dont see how the device could fail to lock if used in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. I can, however, see how it could fail to lock if the user fails to provide drag on the brake strand.


JimTitt


Jan 6, 2013, 1:44 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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There is a case reported on page 2 of this thread which is mirrored by a number of other reports. That rope burns on the brake hand are mentioned indicates the belayer WAS gripping the brake strand. The DAV reported 6 cases of failure to hold a fall with the Cinch in 2009 with rope burns.


healyje


Jan 6, 2013, 2:40 AM
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Re: [jt512] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
The comment you quoted should be attributed to USNavy, not me.
Sorry about that, was on my iPhone at the time which is usually less than ideal for forum posting.


lonequail


Jan 6, 2013, 5:23 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
What reported cases? .... I cannot possibly fathom anyway the device could fail to lock if the there is sufficient resistance on the brake end of the rope and the cam is free to move.

Read my previous post on this thread, especially the three bullet items. Then go play with a Cinch and a rope, and see what you think.


phillygoat


Jan 6, 2013, 1:39 PM
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I've been using the Cinch almost exclusively for 5 years and haven't had any problems besides the aforementioned wear. That said, in that time I've had a friend "deck with tension" at the gym when a reportedly correctly-threaded Cinch failed to engage the rope. This resulted in burns to the belayer's brake hand.

Another friend caught an unexpected fall with a 1st generation Cinch only after the leader fell much further than expected. This belayer suffered rope burns to his guide hand and was known to hold the Cinch pointed down.

While it's impossible to know exactly what happened during these falls, it is worrisome that both belayers were very experienced climbers with familiarity of the Cinch.

I'm of the opinion that the guide hand contributes to the efficacy of the Cinch more than is emphasized. I believe pulling the hands in opposition (quickly!) is what ensures the device to engage. In the reported cases of slippage, I believe the brake hand is trying to hold the rope, but for some reason the device is not pivoting (ie: held with forefinger and thumb too tightly?) Maybe something akin to how seatbelts require swift movement to lock?

The bottom line is that I agree with Jay- the not knowing is unsettling. I'd like to think it's simply user error, as I find the Cinch to easily be the best rope-feeding belay device I've used. Even Grigri 2s with new ropes don't feed as well. Oh, FWIW, I'm mostly a sport climber and have caught hundreds of falls with the Cinch over the years.


redlude97


Jan 6, 2013, 8:37 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
markcarlson wrote:
I saw it happen beside me at a crag in 2011.

Me too. Same year, in fact. What should have been at most a 20-foot fall, ended up being about 60 feet with rope slipping through the device, and the climber came to a stop not more than 3 feet off the deck.

I have never trusted the Cinch on account of these occasional inexplicable and unreproducible incidents.

Jay
Me too, and yet the same year again - 2011. I was linking two pitches at Smith rocks where what should have been a 15' fall turned into me flying past 8 bolts before I stopped. Needless to say I stopped climbing with my belayer that very moment. I left the draws up and walked back to the car.

However, the reason why I was dropped was because my belayer was holding the cam open as I fell instead of holding the rope as she should have been doing. Regardless of what device you use, if you are not actually holding the rope, dont expect much to happen.


What has always bugged me about the Cinch is, unlike the Grigri, there is evidence of an unknown failure mode: reported cases of unsafe amounts of rope slippage that could not be explained by misuse, and that Trango could not replicate.
What reported cases? Is it possible these reported cases of an unknown failure mode are actually just instances of the belayer failing to properly grip the brake strand and prevent inadvertent jaming of the cam open by means of a second hand or the rock pressing on the cam? If you look at the Cinch it is pretty easy to understand how the device functions, you dont need to be an engineer to understand it. The basic design is fairly simple and foolproof. I cannot possibly fathom anyway the device could fail to lock if the there is sufficient resistance on the brake end of the rope and the cam is free to move. The device functions the same way as the GriGri. Drag on the brake strand initiates the cam, which pinches the rope. Unless there is something restricting the movement of the cam, it is not physically possible for the cam to fail to close if there is drag on the brake strand. So I dont see how the device could fail to lock if used in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. I can, however, see how it could fail to lock if the user fails to provide drag on the brake strand.
I've used a cinch for over 4 years without a problem, until i had one. The cam was not jammed in any way and the rope burns on my hands clearly indicate I was holding the brake strand. I estimate I've caught 1000 falls on a cinch at least. I still do not know why it didn't lock in this case. I've never had a problem with an atc(what I use for multipitch) or a grigri 2(what I use for cragging now). I used to really love the cinch and if you look back at old threads I've always advocated its use before this incident last summer. No response from Trango so I stopped using it. I used to think the same way you did. Until it happens and it blows your mind, then you lose all trust in device.


bearbreeder


Jan 6, 2013, 8:41 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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heres a question ... who here refuses to be belayed on a cinch, no matter how experienced the belayer ...

i see people no longer using em ... do people you know still use em or do you meet people with em, and let them know you refuse to be belayed by a cinch?


JimTitt


Jan 7, 2013, 12:09 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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Me for one. They were never very popular in the area I climb in anyway since most owned a Grigri. I haven´t seen one in use for a few years now and the only guy I knew personally who used one dropped his partner so changed.
The reports of people being dropped, the wear issue, that they bend and become useless and the disagreement over safety of the operating instructions between the DAV and Trango (which we now see is resolved in favour of the DAV as the new instructions show it should be clipped into the harness facing the other way as they recommended) made them an unatractive alternative to other more reliable devices.


healyje


Jan 7, 2013, 1:45 AM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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Cinch issues...


(This post was edited by healyje on Jan 7, 2013, 1:45 AM)


JAB


Jan 10, 2013, 6:46 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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I'm a bit late for this thread, but let me add my experiences. I've used the Cinch about 4 years. During that time, I have never myself had any issues, but my belayer once dropped my quite the way, almost decking me. I'm pretty sure what happened.

I was projecting a route and was resting, with my waist at the bolt. I decided to a big reach for a hold I though I barely could reach, just to see how it felt. I expected the belayer to keep me tight, but as I stretched he assumed I was continuing my climb and gave out some slack . At the same time I leaned back to continue resting, and next thing I knew I was 15 feet down.

I think it is pretty obvious that this is the big risk with the Cinch. If you take a mild fall at the same time the belayer is paying out slack, a lot of rope will run through the device before it locks up. The way to avoid this is to grab the rope with your three free fingers so that you create the drag required for it to lock up more quickly. This can be hard if your belayer is inexperienced (the case in my fall) or inattentive.

While I am totally of the opinion that this is an avoidable belayer error, the Cinch surely leaves much less room for sloppiness than for example the Grigri. And as everyone (except Healyje) knows, everyone will be sloppy at one point or two. Even John Long was.

I have adjusted my belaying style so that I keep the Cinch locked up as much as possible. I do this by pulling up on the guide hand, which locks the device. My braking hand remains solely on the braking side of the rope - I do not hold the device at all. Only when slack is needed in the next second, do I move my brake hand onto the device. I then super quickly (and this is easy with the Cinch) pay out an arm (being attentive that I have 3 fingers firmly on the braking side of the rope), and immediately after return both my hands to the locking position.

Like many others, my Cinch is getting worn, so I will probably do like everybody else and get a grigri 2.


(This post was edited by JAB on Jan 10, 2013, 6:47 AM)


Gmburns2000


Jan 10, 2013, 8:06 AM
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Re: [healyje] Cinch Issues? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
The comment you quoted should be attributed to USNavy, not me.
Sorry about that, was on my iPhone at the time which is usually less than ideal for forum posting.

hmmmm...Angelic



(seriously though, I've never liked the cinch, but for other reasons. basically I just never got used to it and decided it wasn't worth spending money on another device just because. this thread has been eye-opening)


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