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Lazlo


Feb 11, 2013, 5:56 AM
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Pirate Guiding
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Can anyone help me find info or an article on the laws concerning pirate guiding?

Thank you!


gblauer
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Feb 11, 2013, 6:27 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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I would imagine it's geographically specific.


Do pirates really like to be guided?


Gmburns2000


Feb 11, 2013, 6:56 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Arghhh...me thinks ya need ta talk ta tha others who a doin it argghhh...


JimTitt


Feb 11, 2013, 8:28 AM
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Re: [gblauer] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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gblauer wrote:
I would imagine it's geographically specific.


Do pirates really like to be guided?

Our Pirate Party in Germany certainly needs some guidance, they´ve even less idea of reality than usual! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party


iknowfear


Feb 11, 2013, 10:21 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
gblauer wrote:
I would imagine it's geographically specific.


Do pirates really like to be guided?

Our Pirate Party in Germany certainly needs some guidance, they´ve even less idea of reality than usual! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party

hey, let me help out


shuffleboardfan


Feb 11, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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A pirate walks into a bar with a steering wheel sticking out of his pants.

The bar tender looks at him and asks "what's the deal, isn't that incredibly uncomfortable?"

The pirate replies, "ARRGggh it's driving me nuts."


OP: What the heck is pirate guiding?


petsfed


Feb 11, 2013, 12:20 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Pirate guiding, I assume, is guiding without the appropriate permit/insurance to do so in a given area, or without agreeing to give a cut to the land owner.

I think its a shitty practice, so (since the rest of the thread will be about how to do it), that's the extent of my input.


marc801


Feb 11, 2013, 1:16 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Lazlo wrote:
Can anyone help me find info or an article on the laws concerning pirate guiding?
For starters, google: nps illegal guiding

https://www.google.com/...biw=1112&bih=744


USnavy


Feb 12, 2013, 1:17 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
I think its a shitty practice, so (since the rest of the thread will be about how to do it), that's the extent of my input.
Why? Did you know that the current rate for a guided trip up the Nose is about $4,600? Did you also know that DNC pockets about $2,000 of that? That is what happens when you have a government-sanctioned monopoly at work. The prices jump and (most often, but not in this case) the quality drops.

However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y? That runs directly contrary to the entire foundation America is laid upon--capitalism, freedom and democracy. When the government starts making our choices for us, we normally call that totalitarianism.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 12, 2013, 1:24 AM)


ObviousTroll


Feb 12, 2013, 5:19 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
petsfed wrote:
I think its a shitty practice, so (since the rest of the thread will be about how to do it), that's the extent of my input.
Why? Did you know that the current rate for a guided trip up the Nose is about $4,600? Did you also know that DNC pockets about $2,000 of that? That is what happens when you have a government-sanctioned monopoly at work. The prices jump and (most often, but not in this case) the quality drops.

However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y? That runs directly contrary to the entire foundation America is laid upon--capitalism, freedom and democracy. When the government starts making our choices for us, we normally call that totalitarianism.


EEEK! Somebody with a brain hijacked USNavy's account.

Musta been a pirate. Hey but seriously, I agree here entirely. Licenses help a person understand qualifications of their guide, but what if I'm not worried about their qualifications? after all- were the first rock and mountain guides amga certified? Of course not.


Lazlo


Feb 12, 2013, 5:35 AM
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Re: [marc801] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Lazlo wrote:
Can anyone help me find info or an article on the laws concerning pirate guiding?
For starters, google: nps illegal guiding

https://www.google.com/...biw=1112&bih=744

Arrrrg! Thanks Marc for the link. I ended up emailing the National Forest.


....I'm still down for anything online if anyone knows where I can find it.


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 12, 2013, 11:11 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Many land managers have guidelines specific to the area they manage. I don't know if there are "laws" regarding the practice specifically, but assume it falls under "no commercial activity without permit" rules within the NPS.

As a professional guide(according to your Etsy profile as linked in your sig), I wonder why you would feel a need to ask rc.gum about the practice, though.

Also....checked out you sig link to Etsy shop, thinking maybe you might like to be on the Etsy Climbers Team but I see you have your shop in "Vacation Mode" and are directing people to buy your product elsewhere....

Maybe you might want to check out Etsy's guidelines about pirate selling within their platform... Angelic


(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 12, 2013, 11:13 AM)


wonderwoman


Feb 12, 2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Lazlo wrote:
I ended up emailing the National Forest.

Have you heard back from the trees yet?


petsfed


Feb 12, 2013, 12:45 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y?

By and large, licensing works to guarantee that the guide company pays a cut. I pay taxes on public land. Presumably you do too. If somebody is making money off of that public land without paying for it themselves, then they are getting an REI-dividend-style discount on their taxes. That shit pisses me off. If I have to pay for it, then sure as fuck the guy who has to spend 10 times as much time out there as me has to pay for it.

I don't give a shit about insurance, safety certifications, or any of that horseshit. I think the fact that only 2 companies were allowed to guide Rainier for decades is fucked up. But if you make money off of public lands, you have to pay, whether you're guiding clients or grazing cattle.


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 12, 2013, 1:21 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Interesting perspective, Petsfed, and I'm sure one shared by many, though not myself.

The reason I support a land manager requiring permits for guiding is that they DO tend to choose vendors who are qualified.Can you imagine how many rc.com year-in leaders would feel they could "be a guide" and gumby up the cliffs with their clients if there were no permit process?

I also think the land managers DO tend to limit the number so as not to have guide services completely overgrazing the climbing pastures, so to speak. Sometimes it does seem like the guides and groups are everywhere at destination crags, but with just a little effort on the part of ourselves, we can usually find plenty to climb.

Even so - personally, I have no qualms against hiring someone who is pirate guiding. I haven't hired a guide in some years, but let's say I wanted to get a ride up the Nose(I would some day, but at the rate I am going I don't think I will be able to fully pull my own weight on a team any time soon)...

If I knew someone, or knew of someone, who was not on the registered list, but I trusted as being experienced and competent, I think I would probably rather pay them under the portaledge than go to the official service. Though I suppose if I could pay a pirate I could pay one of the Yosemite Climbing School (or whatever it is called) guides.

My way of thinking is an alternate one...but I do sort of subscribe to the "Rules are made for people who need rules" branch of living.

For instance - if someone isn't competent to know what a competent guide is - rules that qualify their choices makes sense to me. Or if someone who IS guiding doesn't have enough sense to know what is required of a guide - rules are good.

Of course - if EVERYONE felt and behaved that way, the world would be in a shambles! But that is because so damned MANY people DO need rules to stop them from doing stupid and damaging things.


Partner cracklover


Feb 12, 2013, 2:19 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
I think its a shitty practice, so (since the rest of the thread will be about how to do it), that's the extent of my input.

+1

BTW, I've seen guides doing really fucked up shit either out of site of the client or beyond the client's scope to understand how unsafe it is. They've all been pirate guides.

GO


mojomonkey


Feb 12, 2013, 3:17 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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This reminds me of one of my favorite threads on here, jmeizis documenting his life as a "guide". Ah, memories.


petsfed


Feb 12, 2013, 7:11 PM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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happiegrrrl wrote:
Even so - personally, I have no qualms against hiring someone who is pirate guiding. I haven't hired a guide in some years, but let's say I wanted to get a ride up the Nose(I would some day, but at the rate I am going I don't think I will be able to fully pull my own weight on a team any time soon)...

This is a scenario where I'd be willing to pay in gas, or beer, or food, or some combo of the three, because that starts to feel like an equitable partnership. There is an implicit point in that partnership where that goes both ways. But if your living is doing this, and you're taking money over all else, then the land owner deserves a cut.


caughtinside


Feb 12, 2013, 7:23 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Pirate guiding is really just guides undercutting other guides. You know, the guys paying for insurance, maintaining relationships with the land management, and staying certified.

If I were a n00b and wanted to get guided up somehting I had no business being on, I wouldn't do it without insurance. Even if the pirate has insurance, it wouldn't cover illegal guiding.

Throwing a few bucks to a ropegun to do something just out of reach is different in the cultural context of climbing in my opinion.


olderic


Feb 12, 2013, 8:03 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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Lots more info needed from the OP. Private land?- public land? - NPS? NFS? BLM? State Park? "Laws"? - Federal? State? local? "Pirate"? = no permit? No fee paid? Not Certified?
You sound as though you have a not-so-hidden agenda.


guangzhou


Feb 12, 2013, 8:41 PM
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Pirate guiding, poaching when I was a guide, doesn't necessarily mean the guide isn't qualified or doesn't insurance.

He could just be guiding somewhere that he has not been issues a permit for.

Technically speaking, many of today's outdoor rec programs with schools are doing just that. Some just because they don't even know they are suppose to apply for a permit.

I've held permits for Federal Land, all they want to see is proof of insurance really. AFter that, you pay a percentage of your fees on a guide day basis.

A guide day is basically one person for one day. If I am guiding one person I pay a fee for one person. If I am guiding two people in the same party, I pay a fee for two.

Poaching in America is much more complicated than many countries. A lot of climbing areas are on private properties.

Many land owners don't accept money because they become liable if something happen under various state recreation laws. (Attraction clauses with bolts sometimes too)

One private area I guided in, the owner wanted no money and wanted no knowledge of what I was charging. Once a year, my guide service would donate money towards his property taxes. We even help a fundraising bbq one year.

If certification meant I could guide on any federal or state land, I would support mandatory guide certification programs like a lot of Europe. Because a guide has to deal with each climbing area separately, I don't.


USnavy


Feb 12, 2013, 10:19 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
USnavy wrote:
However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y?

By and large, licensing works to guarantee that the guide company pays a cut. I pay taxes on public land. Presumably you do too. If somebody is making money off of that public land without paying for it themselves, then they are getting an REI-dividend-style discount on their taxes. That shit pisses me off. If I have to pay for it, then sure as fuck the guy who has to spend 10 times as much time out there as me has to pay for it.

I don't give a shit about insurance, safety certifications, or any of that horseshit. I think the fact that only 2 companies were allowed to guide Rainier for decades is fucked up. But if you make money off of public lands, you have to pay, whether you're guiding clients or grazing cattle.
Sure, I agree that if a land use tax exists, everyone should pay it. But creating a guiding monopoly is the most idiotic possible solution to solving that issue. It is entirely possible for the NPS to say that any company can guide in Yosemite, and every company has to pay a land use tax. But they dont do that. Instead they say that only DNC can control the public-use assets in Yosemite. How that is even legal is beyond me. I am rather surprised no one has sued the NPS over that yet.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 12, 2013, 10:24 PM)


Gmburns2000


Feb 13, 2013, 3:52 AM
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USnavy wrote:
petsfed wrote:
USnavy wrote:
However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y?

By and large, licensing works to guarantee that the guide company pays a cut. I pay taxes on public land. Presumably you do too. If somebody is making money off of that public land without paying for it themselves, then they are getting an REI-dividend-style discount on their taxes. That shit pisses me off. If I have to pay for it, then sure as fuck the guy who has to spend 10 times as much time out there as me has to pay for it.

I don't give a shit about insurance, safety certifications, or any of that horseshit. I think the fact that only 2 companies were allowed to guide Rainier for decades is fucked up. But if you make money off of public lands, you have to pay, whether you're guiding clients or grazing cattle.
Sure, I agree that if a land use tax exists, everyone should pay it. But creating a guiding monopoly is the most idiotic possible solution to solving that issue. It is entirely possible for the NPS to say that any company can guide in Yosemite, and every company has to pay a land use tax. But they dont do that. Instead they say that only DNC can control the public-use assets in Yosemite. How that is even legal is beyond me. I am rather surprised no one has sued the NPS over that yet.


It's the same thing in RMNP. I assume in quite a few other parks, too.


Lazlo


Feb 13, 2013, 4:55 AM
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Re: [wonderwoman] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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wonderwoman wrote:
Lazlo wrote:
I ended up emailing the National Forest.

Have you heard back from the trees yet?

I have not. I will check back when I do though.


Lazlo


Feb 13, 2013, 4:59 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
Pirate guiding is really just guides undercutting other guides. You know, the guys paying for insurance, maintaining relationships with the land management, and staying certified.

If I were a n00b and wanted to get guided up somehting I had no business being on, I wouldn't do it without insurance. Even if the pirate has insurance, it wouldn't cover illegal guiding.

Throwing a few bucks to a ropegun to do something just out of reach is different in the cultural context of climbing in my opinion.

I couldn't have said that better myself.


Lazlo


Feb 13, 2013, 5:11 AM
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olderic wrote:
Lots more info needed from the OP. Private land?- public land? - NPS? NFS? BLM? State Park? "Laws"? - Federal? State? local? "Pirate"? = no permit? No fee paid? Not Certified?
You sound as though you have a not-so-hidden agenda.

In my area there is someone guiding on rock who does not have the skill sets or knowledge to be guiding. I say this having seen him climbing at the local crags before i knew he was guiding.

He's not just guiding under the table either. He has a web site and is promoting himself as a full fledged company. I might not have an issue if it was just cash and word of mouth/referrals.


gblauer
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Feb 13, 2013, 5:45 AM
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Lazlo...why do you care?


marc801


Feb 13, 2013, 8:15 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
It's the same thing in RMNP. I assume in quite a few other parks, too.
It's the same in all US National Parks and National Monuments, since there is single governing body - the National Park Service.

Guide services are viewed identically to any other concessionaire, such as lodging and food service. The idea was that the concessionaire would build the necessary structures and infrastructure and handle all the management. In return for investing that much capital, they would receive an exclusive contract for some period (best measured in decades) of time. Whether this is a realistic model for things like guiding services is still open for debate.

Here's the main page from the NPS describing the system: http://www.concessions.nps.gov/


Gmburns2000


Feb 13, 2013, 8:23 AM
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marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
It's the same thing in RMNP. I assume in quite a few other parks, too.
It's the same in all US National Parks and National Monuments, since there is single governing body - the National Park Service.

Guide services are viewed identically to any other concessionaire, such as lodging and food service. The idea was that the concessionaire would build the necessary structures and infrastructure and handle all the management. In return for investing that much capital, they would receive an exclusive contract for some period (best measured in decades) of time. Whether this is a realistic model for things like guiding services is still open for debate.

Here's the main page from the NPS describing the system: http://www.concessions.nps.gov/

I was referring to guiding monopolies in National Parks. In Acadia, there are at least two that guide there regularly.


petsfed


Feb 13, 2013, 9:30 AM
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USnavy wrote:
Sure, I agree that if a land use tax exists, everyone should pay it. But creating a guiding monopoly is the most idiotic possible solution to solving that issue. It is entirely possible for the NPS to say that any company can guide in Yosemite, and every company has to pay a land use tax. But they dont do that. Instead they say that only DNC can control the public-use assets in Yosemite. How that is even legal is beyond me. I am rather surprised no one has sued the NPS over that yet.

Its legal, even if it isn't fair, because the NPS offered a contract for bid, and the winning company or companies had the best bid. What "the best bid" means is ambiguous, I don't know, but you are welcome to petition the NPS to break those contracts (which they won't) or change the way they do business when those contracts come up for renewal (which they might).

I agree, I don't like the monopoly that gets created, but I also don't think that any existing standard will force guides in the US to be competent. I've known a lot of AMGA, NOLS, and OB folks with absolute shit for brains, and the NPS would likely liaise with one of them to generate a standard.

For what its worth, the limited number of guiding operations on El Capitan basically prevents the need for a Grand-Canyon-Style lottery to get on it, which would result in *only* guided trips having any chance of actually occurring.


marc801


Feb 13, 2013, 9:40 AM
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petsfed wrote:
For what its worth, the limited number of guiding operations on El Capitan basically prevents the need for a Grand-Canyon-Style lottery to get on it, which would result in *only* guided trips having any chance of actually occurring.
Same for the canyoneering permits in Zion. For any given day, 50% are allocated to reservations done through a lottery system and the other 50% are for walk-ups. Realistically, the guide services snatch up over 90% of the reserved permits, and each day they send several representatives to the walk-up window. This works out to the guide services obtaining on average 75% of the available permits on most days. Add to this the limits the park imposes on certain canyons (eg: there are only 50 available permits for The Subway each day) and the result is that damned few non-guided individuals obtain permits.

Imagine something similar for The Nose or other insanely popular wall routes.


apolobamba


Feb 13, 2013, 1:33 PM
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Re: [marc801] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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I thought there was no guiding in Zion. Has this changed? Sure - most people go with a friend that acts as a guide, but it did not seem like professional guides were leading people on the canyons I was in last year.


kiwiprincess


Feb 13, 2013, 2:05 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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The idea is
1) to Stop over use, Numbers restriction, and the environmental impact of that
2) Companies must have a plan For lessening environmental impact
3) companies must have an appropriate safety plan- Often including that guides are qualified.
4) If a company worked in their own property or privately owned there would be a charge for it's use so it is only fair that those on public land do so.
5) companies are tracable and therefore Held responsible for Damage, Behaviour. Dont want random convenience Bolts everywhere or litter left, or new trails etc.


marc801


Feb 13, 2013, 2:08 PM
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Re: [apolobamba] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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apolobamba wrote:
I thought there was no guiding in Zion. Has this changed? Sure - most people go with a friend that acts as a guide, but it did not seem like professional guides were leading people on the canyons I was in last year.
Most definitely. The do not operate as a concessionaire like Yosemite Mountain School, but they do operate in the park, but as "private groups". Technically, guided canyoneering is not permitted in the park, but the services have found a legal loop hole to exploit. Sure, all their web sites will say they go into canyons outside the park, but I've encountered more than one guided party in Mystery Canyon and even The Narrows. Pirate guiding at its best!

These are the most popular of the local guide services that operate "outside the park":
http://www.zionadventures.com/
http://www.zionrockguides.com/
http://www.zionmountainschool.com/
http://www.reddesertadventure.com/canyoneering-zion/


guangzhou


Feb 13, 2013, 5:57 PM
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Re: [kiwiprincess] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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kiwiprincess wrote:
The idea is
1) to Stop over use, Numbers restriction, and the environmental impact of that
2) Companies must have a plan For lessening environmental impact
3) companies must have an appropriate safety plan- Often including that guides are qualified.
4) If a company worked in their own property or privately owned there would be a charge for it's use so it is only fair that those on public land do so.
5) companies are tracable and therefore Held responsible for Damage, Behaviour. Dont want random convenience Bolts everywhere or litter left, or new trails etc.

KP, all of these are good points, but even with more than one guide service operating in one park, those standards could be maintained. Maybe even better than now as guide companies want to show how much they want to keep the contract.

Not sure if it still is, but when I was living in Yosemite, the Yosemite Mountaineering school didn't bid on the contract, they are park of the concession. (Curry Company at the time, and what ever they are now) The concession gets all business. No guide service can afford to outbid those guys. They own baseball stadiums.

I also believe places like Yosemite and other National parks would have better infrastructure, maintenance, environmental protection, and the such if each business was operated by separate businesses. Each would compete against each other to show they are protecting the park better than the other.

Eman


blueeyedclimber


Feb 26, 2013, 5:59 PM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
This reminds me of one of my favorite threads on here, jmeizis documenting his life as a "guide". Ah, memories.

Why'd you have to post that? Like a train wreck, I couldn't turn away, and read the entire thread again. That's twice that I won't get that time back! Mad


other


Mar 18, 2013, 7:29 PM
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happiegirl do you read and or edit anything before you post rambling disjointed replies? just curious. I agree with US Navy. The current system ensures poor and lower economic class folks cannot afford guides and limits choice.


rolfr


Mar 20, 2013, 10:28 PM
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In reply to:
Did you know that the current rate for a guided trip up the Nose is about $4,600? Did you also know that DNC pockets about $2,000 of that?
In reply to:

Pretty easy solution, learn how to climb so you don't need a guide! Pick up your game or stay at home. Climbing is about tying into the sharp end or swapping leads with an equal.

Is there really any satisfaction in the Experience Economy of just putting another tick in your score card of life?


(This post was edited by rolfr on Mar 20, 2013, 10:32 PM)


marc801


Mar 21, 2013, 7:11 AM
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rolfr wrote:
In reply to:
Did you know that the current rate for a guided trip up the Nose is about $4,600? Did you also know that DNC pockets about $2,000 of that?
In reply to:

Pretty easy solution, learn how to climb so you don't need a guide! Pick up your game or stay at home. Climbing is about tying into the sharp end or swapping leads with an equal.

Is there really any satisfaction in the Experience Economy of just putting another tick in your score card of life?
Think maybe you can fix this horribly cheesetitted post?


(This post was edited by marc801 on Mar 21, 2013, 7:13 AM)


iknowfear


Mar 21, 2013, 11:42 AM
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Re: [marc801] Pirate Guiding [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
rolfr wrote:
In reply to:
Did you know that the current rate for a guided trip up the Nose is about $4,600? Did you also know that DNC pockets about $2,000 of that?
In reply to:

Pretty easy solution, learn how to climb so you don't need a guide! Pick up your game or stay at home. Climbing is about tying into the sharp end or swapping leads with an equal.

Is there really any satisfaction in the Experience Economy of just putting another tick in your score card of life?
Think maybe you can fix this horribly cheesetitted post?

ooh, look, we have mods!


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