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Gmburns2000


Feb 12, 2013, 1:36 PM
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Spectra vs. Nylon
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I thought this was a good article from R&I on the benefits of each.

It seems the literature continues to show that spectra is probably more of a specialty piece where weight and / or dry slings matter, and nylon is probably more of an everyday-use product.

The summary of the article (bold-type mine):

R&I wrote:
Spectra Do’s and Don’ts

Don’t
Use a Spectra sling as an
impromptu “daisy chain.”
Lead above a Spectra (or nylon) daisy chain clipped to a piece below you.
Use knotted Spectra slings.
Do
Frequently check Spectra slings, including those on your cams, for wear.
Use a triple fisherman’s knot to tie Spectra cord.

Nylon Versus Spectra

Nylon Pros
Relatively inexpensive
Stretches
Holds knots
Higher melting point than Spectra
Holds up to repeated flexing better than Spectra
Great “all-around” material

Nylon Cons
Absorbs more water
Susceptible to UV
degradation
Heavier and bulkier
than Spectra

Spectra Pros
Three times stronger by weight than nylon
Very lightweight
Low bulk
Absorbs little to no water
Highly abrasion- and
cut-resistant

Spectra cons
Doesn’t stretch
Doesn’t hold knots
Expensive
Low melting point


USnavy


Feb 12, 2013, 10:32 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
I thought this was a good article from R&I on the benefits of each.

It seems the literature continues to show that spectra is probably more of a specialty piece where weight and / or dry slings matter, and nylon is probably more of an everyday-use product.

The summary of the article (bold-type mine):

R&I wrote:
Spectra Do’s and Don’ts

Don’t
Use a Spectra sling as an
impromptu “daisy chain.”
Lead above a Spectra (or nylon) daisy chain clipped to a piece below you.
Use knotted Spectra slings.
Do
Frequently check Spectra slings, including those on your cams, for wear.
Use a triple fisherman’s knot to tie Spectra cord.

Nylon Versus Spectra

Nylon Pros
Relatively inexpensive
Stretches
Holds knots
Higher melting point than Spectra
Holds up to repeated flexing better than Spectra
Great “all-around” material

Nylon Cons
Absorbs more water
Susceptible to UV
degradation
Heavier and bulkier
than Spectra

Spectra Pros
Three times stronger by weight than nylon
Very lightweight
Low bulk
Absorbs little to no water
Highly abrasion- and
cut-resistant

Spectra cons
Doesn’t stretch
Doesn’t hold knots
Expensive
Low melting point
Ha, yea right, R&I publish a good article? I dont think so. There are fallacies in that article. For example, while it is true that UHMWPE is more abrasion resistant than nylon, a UHWMPE climbing sling is most certainly more susceptible to failure from sharp-edge loading than a nylon sling because UHWMPE slings are 1/3rd the width of a nylon sling! The article incorrectly implies the opposite. Also, they oversimplify some points such as Spectra not stretching. Spectra certainly does stretch. It is not steel chain. It just does not stretch as much as nylon.
But I will agree that covers the basics in a noob-friendly way.


bearbreeder


Feb 12, 2013, 11:31 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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i dont worry about it ...

i use dyneema

so do tons of my partners who actually climb ...

and i also use nylon

are we all the walking dead ... since we arent using only RC approved gear Wink


moose_droppings


Feb 13, 2013, 2:37 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
i dont worry about it ...

i use dyneema

so do tons of my partners who actually climb ...

and i also use nylon

are we all the walking dead ... since we arent using only RC approved gear Wink

Is it possible for you to post a reply without belittling the site or it's users?


bearbreeder


Feb 13, 2013, 3:36 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Is it possible for you to post a reply without belittling the site or it's users?

dya feel belitted mouse droppings ?

funny that RCers are going ga ga over dyneema, when in the real world out here, people just use it ...

it isnt whats killing em

Wink


billl7


Feb 13, 2013, 4:00 PM
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USnavy wrote:
But I will agree that covers the basics in a noob-friendly way.
a.k.a. the "executive summary" :)


moose_droppings


Feb 13, 2013, 4:00 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
Is it possible for you to post a reply without belittling the site or it's users?

dya feel belitted mouse droppings ?

funny that RCers are going ga ga over dyneema, when in the real world out here, people just use it ...

it isnt whats killing em

Wink

I'm not feeling belittled personally.

You seen to have experience and your full of good information, but your arrogance and superiority complex dilute your message. Seems a waste.


Edited to add.
WinkCrazyWinkUnsureWinkSlyWinkTongue


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Feb 13, 2013, 4:01 PM)


bearbreeder


Feb 13, 2013, 4:05 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:

I'm not feeling belittled personally.

You seen to have experience and your full of good information, but your arrogance and superiority complex dilute your message. Seems a waste.


Edited to add.
WinkCrazyWinkUnsureWinkSlyWinkTongue

its amazing that youre complaining about belittled while not feeling belittled

but have no problem with comments made by a certain member about how women arent really that good climbers and something about burqas

sounds very RC like Wink

theres plenty of good people on RC ... but the simple fact is that there are tons of threads that end up as a "if you dont climb my way, do it my way, use my gear, youre gonna die and yr stoooopid" ...

shall i dig up the old "no one should use autoblock mode" threads for your viewing pleasure Tongue


moose_droppings


Feb 13, 2013, 4:41 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:

I'm not feeling belittled personally.

You seen to have experience and your full of good information, but your arrogance and superiority complex dilute your message. Seems a waste.


Edited to add.
WinkCrazyWinkUnsureWinkSlyWinkTongue

its amazing that youre complaining about belittled while not feeling belittled

but have no problem with comments made by a certain member about how women arent really that good climbers and something about burqas

sounds very RC like Wink

theres plenty of good people on RC ... but the simple fact is that there are tons of threads that end up as a "if you dont climb my way, do it my way, use my gear, youre gonna die and yr stoooopid" ...

shall i dig up the old "no one should use autoblock mode" threads for your viewing pleasure Tongue

I'm complaining about your constant belittling of this site and some of the people you direct it at.

I know that Majid isn't from this country and I don't know of his religion, so no, I'm not going to judge that, since after all this is a rock climbing site.

I agree that there is misinformation floating around, but judging by the stars of a lot of your posts, maybe berating people isn't the best way to be part of the solution you so vehemently detest about this site.

Just give em the straight facts, nuff said.


billl7


Feb 13, 2013, 4:45 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
theres plenty of good people on RC ... but the simple fact is that there are tons of threads that end up as a "if you dont climb my way, do it my way, use my gear, youre gonna die and yr stoooopid" ...
This was not one of those threads until about the second reply here claimed that it was.

Bill L


bearbreeder


Feb 13, 2013, 5:00 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:

I'm complaining about your constant belittling of this site and some of the people you direct it at.

I know that Majid isn't from this country and I don't know of his religion, so no, I'm not going to judge that, since after all this is a rock climbing site.

I agree that there is misinformation floating around, but judging by the stars of a lot of your posts, maybe berating people isn't the best way to be part of the solution you so vehemently detest about this site.

Just give em the straight facts, nuff said.

the straight fact is that most people i see climbing who use dyneema slings ... just use em ... they dont go off taking falls on static materials ... or worrying on RC about it

the ACMG even shows their use in anchor usage

http://vimeo.com/44869774


parks canada banff NP rescue even uses them to secure their climbers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7_4n_4Qhu4

even the safety first AAI uses em to build normal trad anchors



http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.ca/...chors-in-series.html

how many people here would refuse to climb with these ...



or these



or these



if you go off about dyneema for regular climbing, you better not climb on any of the above ...

as for berating ... im not the one telling people they are gonna die if they dont do it my way Wink

Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 13, 2013, 5:03 PM)


moose_droppings


Feb 13, 2013, 5:11 PM
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"slack dude, slack"

I'm not telling you what to do, just a suggestion on your delivery.


ClimbOn


acorneau


Feb 13, 2013, 6:17 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
how many people here would refuse to climb with these ...

or these




FYI: Metolius uses their "Monster Sling" webbing, a blend of nylon (64%) and Dyneema (36%).

I personally chose to use the BW Titan slings which has a similar blend of both nylon and Spectra for the best of both worlds.

Carry on...


bearbreeder


Feb 13, 2013, 6:51 PM
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acorneau wrote:


FYI: Metolius uses their "Monster Sling" webbing, a blend of nylon (64%) and Dyneema (36%).

I personally chose to use the BW Titan slings which has a similar blend of both nylon and Spectra for the best of both worlds.

Carry on...

most "dyneema" slings are a mix ... just a matter of numbers ...

petzl even used dyneema now for the tie in points of their new harness ...


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2013, 5:52 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
acorneau wrote:


FYI: Metolius uses their "Monster Sling" webbing, a blend of nylon (64%) and Dyneema (36%).

I personally chose to use the BW Titan slings which has a similar blend of both nylon and Spectra for the best of both worlds.

Carry on...

most "dyneema" slings are a mix ... just a matter of numbers ...

petzl even used dyneema now for the tie in points of their new harness ...

The big thing for me is how long dyneema lasts. I can't be replacing slings every three years. That adds up.

My choice is nylon because it better represents my usage.


billl7


Feb 14, 2013, 6:01 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
The big thing for me is how long dyneema lasts. I can't be replacing slings every three years. That adds up.

My choice is nylon because it better represents my usage.
I also feel that individual needs are what matter here.

If I were pushing the edge of my climbing ability, where I was really concerned about the weight of my climbing gear, and replacement cost did not matter ... I'd probably carry more dyneema/spectra and my lead ropes would lighter weight (i.e., smaller diameter).

But I'm not. So I've always carried nylon slings.
Bill L


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2013, 6:17 AM
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billl7 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The big thing for me is how long dyneema lasts. I can't be replacing slings every three years. That adds up.

My choice is nylon because it better represents my usage.
I also feel that individual needs are what matter here.

If I were pushing the edge of my climbing ability, where I was really concerned about the weight of my climbing gear, and replacement cost did not matter ... I'd probably carry more dyneema/spectra and my lead ropes would lighter weight (i.e., smaller diameter).

But I'm not. So I've always carried nylon slings.
Bill L

Which, to be honest, makes me wonder about the vast majority of people out there compared to how much dyneema is available. I know very few people who would really benefit from dyneema on a regular basis.

It makes one wonder why it's so readily available / promoted.


edge


Feb 14, 2013, 6:27 AM
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For all my trad climbing, I carry a combination. Trad draws are mostly made from shoulder length spectra which keeps the bulk down; I am less concerned about weight.

Over the shoulder slings are a couple spectra (nice for threads) and a few knotted nylon supertape which can be broken down and retied as an anchor, etc. I also carry one double length spectra over the shoulder, good for slinging trees or for gear way off line. I do not carry a cordelette or any other PAS. (P.O.S.?)


csproul


Feb 14, 2013, 7:02 AM
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billl7 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The big thing for me is how long dyneema lasts. I can't be replacing slings every three years. That adds up.

My choice is nylon because it better represents my usage.
I also feel that individual needs are what matter here.

If I were pushing the edge of my climbing ability, where I was really concerned about the weight of my climbing gear, and replacement cost did not matter ... I'd probably carry more dyneema/spectra and my lead ropes would lighter weight (i.e., smaller diameter).

But I'm not. So I've always carried nylon slings.
Bill L
For me it is not so much a matter of weight as it is bulk. The bulk of 15 nylon runners is noticeably more than that of skinny dyneema.


JimTitt


Feb 14, 2013, 7:34 AM
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Like most climbers I carry a mixture, climbing limestone Dyneema slings are far better for threads and the bulk of all nylon is also a problem if you need to carry half a dozen long slings.
The cost and durability of slings doesn´t interest me in the greater picture of how much I spend going climbing!


bearbreeder


Feb 14, 2013, 8:11 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
The big thing for me is how long dyneema lasts. I can't be replacing slings every three years. That adds up.

My choice is nylon because it better represents my usage.


i replace all my slings every 3-4 years of active climbing regardless of material

ask yourself this ...

do you resling your dyneema slinged cams every 3 years? ... stuff like mastercams, UL TCUs/PC, Zeros, newer aliens, etc ...

if you "worry" about dyneema then you should ... cams are every day use items where the sling runs against other cams when racked, and against edges, rocks, cracks when placed and fallen on ... but in reality no one does in 3 years

heres a fairly common harness line ..... guess what the BELAY loops, an extremely high wear area, is made out of Wink



people use whatever they want ... i use dyneema every day ... but also nylon which i can cheaply leave for bailing, or use as aiders for the occasional aid move ...

it is fairly hilarious when someone in the bluffs talks loudly about the deadly dyneema, yet their rack is full of dyneema slinged cams

Tongue


billl7


Feb 14, 2013, 8:16 AM
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csproul wrote:
For me it is not so much a matter of weight as it is bulk. The bulk of 15 nylon runners is noticeably more than that of skinny dyneema.
They are indeed bulky. In fact, if you hang 15 or so total on the front gear loops and sort of spread them out on your thighs, it looks like a revealing yet colorful skirt!

Edit: Just try to do that with your butt floss. ;-)

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 14, 2013, 8:17 AM)


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2013, 8:42 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The big thing for me is how long dyneema lasts. I can't be replacing slings every three years. That adds up.

My choice is nylon because it better represents my usage.


i replace all my slings every 3-4 years of active climbing regardless of material

ask yourself this ...

do you resling your dyneema slinged cams every 3 years? ... stuff like mastercams, UL TCUs/PC, Zeros, newer aliens, etc ...

if you "worry" about dyneema then you should ... cams are every day use items where the sling runs against other cams when racked, and against edges, rocks, cracks when placed and fallen on ... but in reality no one does in 3 years

heres a fairly common harness line ..... guess what the BELAY loops, an extremely high wear area, is made out of Wink

[image]http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/images/Safe-Tech-Trad-lrg.jpg[/image]

people use whatever they want ... i use dyneema every day ... but also nylon which i can cheaply leave for bailing, or use as aiders for the occasional aid move ...

it is fairly hilarious when someone in the bluffs talks loudly about the deadly dyneema, yet their rack is full of dyneema slinged cams

Tongue

I don't have any cams with dyneema slings, nor a harness with it either. So no problem there for me.

Also, I rarely clip directly to the cam. I prefer to extend it, for various reasons depending on the circumstances that are mostly dictated by where and the type of routes I climb. So even if they had dyneema slings, I wouldn't use them much except to clip to my harness.

I'm curious as to what metolius says the life-span of the belay loop is, and what the nylon / dyneema split is.


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2013, 8:47 AM
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csproul wrote:
billl7 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
The big thing for me is how long dyneema lasts. I can't be replacing slings every three years. That adds up.

My choice is nylon because it better represents my usage.
I also feel that individual needs are what matter here.

If I were pushing the edge of my climbing ability, where I was really concerned about the weight of my climbing gear, and replacement cost did not matter ... I'd probably carry more dyneema/spectra and my lead ropes would lighter weight (i.e., smaller diameter).

But I'm not. So I've always carried nylon slings.
Bill L
For me it is not so much a matter of weight as it is bulk. The bulk of 15 nylon runners is noticeably more than that of skinny dyneema.

for whatever reason, I've always had a problem tightening my harness enough to keep it from falling down too much on to my hips (and thus pushing my pants half-way down my ass).

As a result of this, I went with with the BD Big Wall gear sling to help save weight on my waist, so I don't have a problem with bulk on my harness that much.


bearbreeder


Feb 14, 2013, 8:56 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Also, I rarely clip directly to the cam. I prefer to extend it, for various reasons depending on the circumstances that are mostly dictated by where and the type of routes I climb. So even if they had dyneema slings, I wouldn't use them much except to clip to my harness.

doesnt matter ... it still wears out and rubs against the rock .. when the rope moves, and when you fall ... not to mention the time in the sun

you dont clip directly to the thumb loop do you? ... go out and replace em Tongue

i usually extend my camalots, yet after a few years the slings are worn, and time to be replaced after this season ...

theres a lot of "issues" floating around the internet about dyneema ... a telling sign is that most manufacturers are moving TOWARDS using more dyneema .. in daily use high wear items like harnesses

many manufacturers made the move years ago for cam and hex slings ... when was the last time you heard about one of those breaking (not being cut) in a real life fall

Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 14, 2013, 8:58 AM)


Partner rgold


Feb 14, 2013, 9:48 PM
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Almost all my slings are dental-floss spectra. I carry one or two of the thick nylon Mammut slings for slinging flakes and other features with edges I think might cut the thin spectra stuff. I prefer a nylon PAS, since it is functionally identical to the spectra ones, cheaper than the spectra ones, and stronger than the spectra ones. But for ultra-lightness and/or wet winter/alpine applications, many climbers would find spectra to be preferable. As for what other people, including my partners, do, I don't care one way or another.

As for the "yer gonna die" stuff, it centers around taking high fall-factor falls directly onto slings, something everyone admits is a very bad idea whether or not it actually breaks the sling. The one incident of this sort I know of was a factor-2 fall by a climber on a nylon quickdraw that the nylon withstood but which broke one of the carabiners. This was more like a factor 3 fall but does suggest that extremely high loads can result from short falls by human bodies on sling material when the climbing rope is not involved and the siings are short.

There is absolutely no question that spectra is worse than nylon if it is called on to absorb fall energy, which is not a job slings are supposed to do, and that the problem is compounded when there are knots in the slings. What climbers do with this information if (a) they understand it and (b) they consider it significant to practical climbing situations is, always has been, and always will remain a personal decision.


BillyCrook


Feb 15, 2013, 10:57 AM
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Re: [rgold] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
The one incident of this sort I know of was a factor-2 fall by a climber on a nylon quickdraw that the nylon withstood but which broke one of the carabiners. This was more like a factor 3 fall

How can you exceed 2? Was he solo-ing and just happened to clip into something while he was falling? Was he clipped into a vertical rope way above an a bolt?


Partner rgold


Feb 15, 2013, 11:11 AM
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Re: [BillyCrook] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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BillyCrook wrote:
rgold wrote:
The one incident of this sort I know of was a factor-2 fall by a climber on a nylon quickdraw that the nylon withstood but which broke one of the carabiners. This was more like a factor 3 fall

How can you exceed 2? Was he solo-ing and just happened to clip into something while he was falling? Was he clipped into a vertical rope way above an a bolt?

It was a factor-2 fall on a short quickdraw. If the quickdraw was altogether 4 biners long with a 2-biner length sling, then the fall height was 8 biners with energy absorbed by a two-biner length of nylon, which gives a fall factor of 4. Since the biners flex a little and so might absorb some fall energy, I rounded down to fall factor 3.

The one test I've heard about establishing a UIAA-style impact force rating for nylon slings came out to 18 kN. It doesn't seem possible to find a value for spectra because it breaks in a factor-2 drop test.


marc801


Feb 15, 2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Also, I rarely clip directly to the cam. I prefer to extend it, for various reasons depending on the circumstances that are mostly dictated by where and the type of routes I climb. So even if they had dyneema slings, I wouldn't use them much except to clip to my harness.
Then how are you accomplishing extending if you're not clipping into the cam sling?


wivanoff


Feb 15, 2013, 11:59 AM
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Re: [marc801] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Also, I rarely clip directly to the cam. I prefer to extend it, for various reasons depending on the circumstances that are mostly dictated by where and the type of routes I climb. So even if they had dyneema slings, I wouldn't use them much except to clip to my harness.
Then how are you accomplishing extending if you're not clipping into the cam sling?

"Alpine Quickboys"? Wink


Gmburns2000


Feb 15, 2013, 12:09 PM
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marc801 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Also, I rarely clip directly to the cam. I prefer to extend it, for various reasons depending on the circumstances that are mostly dictated by where and the type of routes I climb. So even if they had dyneema slings, I wouldn't use them much except to clip to my harness.
Then how are you accomplishing extending if you're not clipping into the cam sling?

that was an oversight on my part.


JimTitt


Feb 16, 2013, 9:38 AM
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Re: [BillyCrook] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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BillyCrook wrote:
rgold wrote:
The one incident of this sort I know of was a factor-2 fall by a climber on a nylon quickdraw that the nylon withstood but which broke one of the carabiners. This was more like a factor 3 fall

How can you exceed 2? Was he solo-ing and just happened to clip into something while he was falling? Was he clipped into a vertical rope way above an a bolt?

The incident rgold is probably referring to was a climber replacing bolts and was using 3 (if I remember right) quickdraws to reach up to the placement, he fell and broke one of the karabiners. He survived the resulting groundfall. One of the rope companies recreated the incident and the force was something like 27kN.
There´s a write-up somewhere which i can probably find later but the lessons are clear enough anyway!


USnavy


Feb 16, 2013, 2:51 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
BillyCrook wrote:
rgold wrote:
The one incident of this sort I know of was a factor-2 fall by a climber on a nylon quickdraw that the nylon withstood but which broke one of the carabiners. This was more like a factor 3 fall

How can you exceed 2? Was he solo-ing and just happened to clip into something while he was falling? Was he clipped into a vertical rope way above an a bolt?

One of the rope companies recreated the incident and the force was something like 27kN.
Which is a ludicrous notion. Harnesses are only required to hold 15kN, and the human body cannot withstand more than 12kN (some sources say 10kN). If he was subjected to 27kN, I strongly doubt his back would be in one piece. What very likely happened is the gate on one of the carabiners opened, possibly due to flutter, and the actual force was limited to the failure strength of the failed biner in the open gate position.


Partner rgold


Feb 16, 2013, 5:08 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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Why ludicrous? No one said the climber in question was subjected to 27 kN. For whatever reason, the biner presumably broke at some unknown lower number. The main point is that the load potential in such situations is enough to break something critical, and a secondary point is that this has actually happened; it isn't hypothetical.

Of course, this has nothing to do with dyneema vs. nylon, in fact I think the sling in question was nylon. I mentioned the example to point out that very short falls on slings are potentially very dangerous.


USnavy


Feb 16, 2013, 7:24 PM
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rgold wrote:
Why ludicrous? No one said the climber in question was subjected to 27 kN. .

Actually Jim did make that claim, although possibly not knowingly and not directly. He said that a manufacturer recreated the incident. Clearly the manufacturer did not correctly mirror the scenario if they got 27kN. They may have partly replicated the scenario. But they did not replicate the results. Both parameters would be required to claim they properly replicated the scenario. What they probably did was use a steel weight in a scenario that did not result in the carabiners failing in the open gate position. That may be similar to the scenario at hand. But similar and exact are two very different parameters in this conversation.

You are correct that short falls on static materials can produce high loads. Everyone knows that. But everyone also knows that a steel weight is not analogous of a fleshy human in static falls.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 16, 2013, 7:25 PM)


JimTitt


Feb 16, 2013, 11:53 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
BillyCrook wrote:
rgold wrote:
The one incident of this sort I know of was a factor-2 fall by a climber on a nylon quickdraw that the nylon withstood but which broke one of the carabiners. This was more like a factor 3 fall

How can you exceed 2? Was he solo-ing and just happened to clip into something while he was falling? Was he clipped into a vertical rope way above an a bolt?

One of the rope companies recreated the incident and the force was something like 27kN.
Which is a ludicrous notion. Harnesses are only required to hold 15kN, and the human body cannot withstand more than 12kN (some sources say 10kN). If he was subjected to 27kN, I strongly doubt his back would be in one piece. What very likely happened is the gate on one of the carabiners opened, possibly due to flutter, and the actual force was limited to the failure strength of the failed biner in the open gate position.

While the minimum requirements for harnesses is 15kN all manufacturers make them stronger. I have one somewhere rated to 25kN and can well believe my work harness is stronger than that.

Your knowledge of survivable g-forces is woeful, the 12kN standard is for long-period accelerations without injury, John Stapp survived 46.2g for over a second. For shorter periods which falling on quickdraws would certainly be we can look at:-

Kenny Brack (Indy Car) recorded 214g
David Purley (F1) calculated 180g
Robert Kubica (FI) recorded 75g

While all of these are in the more advantageous body position they show that your contention "the human body cannot withstand more than 12kN (some sources say 10kN)" is clearly rubbish and your proposal that the testers knew nothing clearly also worthless.


(This post was edited by JimTitt on Feb 16, 2013, 11:54 PM)


USnavy


Feb 17, 2013, 1:10 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
BillyCrook wrote:
rgold wrote:
The one incident of this sort I know of was a factor-2 fall by a climber on a nylon quickdraw that the nylon withstood but which broke one of the carabiners. This was more like a factor 3 fall

How can you exceed 2? Was he solo-ing and just happened to clip into something while he was falling? Was he clipped into a vertical rope way above an a bolt?

One of the rope companies recreated the incident and the force was something like 27kN.
Which is a ludicrous notion. Harnesses are only required to hold 15kN, and the human body cannot withstand more than 12kN (some sources say 10kN). If he was subjected to 27kN, I strongly doubt his back would be in one piece. What very likely happened is the gate on one of the carabiners opened, possibly due to flutter, and the actual force was limited to the failure strength of the failed biner in the open gate position.

While the minimum requirements for harnesses is 15kN all manufacturers make them stronger. I have one somewhere rated to 25kN and can well believe my work harness is stronger than that.

Your knowledge of survivable g-forces is woeful, the 12kN standard is for long-period accelerations without injury, John Stapp survived 46.2g for over a second. For shorter periods which falling on quickdraws would certainly be we can look at:-

Kenny Brack (Indy Car) recorded 214g
David Purley (F1) calculated 180g
Robert Kubica (FI) recorded 75g

While all of these are in the more advantageous body position they show that your contention "the human body cannot withstand more than 12kN (some sources say 10kN)" is clearly rubbish and your proposal that the testers knew nothing clearly also worthless.
Okay, you called it, I got it wrong. From the studies I read, my understanding was that 12kN was an upper limit. But, if Brack pulled 214gs and weighed 175 lbs, he was subjected to 166kN. By comparison, 5/8" or 16mm 6x19 steel cable fails at 143kN. Even if a human could withstand that much force, a standard 5-point racing harness certainly would not. So I question their claim that he was able to survive forces in excess of the weight of two semi-trucks.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 17, 2013, 1:37 AM)


JimTitt


Feb 17, 2013, 3:51 AM
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Given that the data logger would have been fixed to the car, not him then possibly he didn´t have to survive the full 214g since a small amount of give is inherent in the harness.
Since the current combined strength requirements for an FIA 6 point harness is 110kN and for a 5 point about 100kN clearly the FIA think that 100g or thereabouts is a reasonable mark to aim for. As these are the minimum strengths and one would imagine a certain amount of margin is built in by the manufacturers I´d hesitate to say a racing harness would certainly break.

The current F1 safety cell requirements are:-
The peak deceleration over the first 150mm of deformation does not exceed 10g ;
- the peak deceleration over the first 60kJ energy absorption does not exceed 20g ;
- the average deceleration of the trolley does not exceed 40g ;
- the peak deceleration in the chest of the dummy does not exceed 60g for more than a cumulative 3ms, this being the resultant of data from three axes.

These are being modified due to the coming rule changes and most current safety cells are tested to 60g, a fair indication of what the survivable forces are though to be.


david_g48


Feb 17, 2013, 5:08 AM
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Jim
Are you comparing apples to apples when you use race car drivers and climbers? There are a lot of different dynamics when you introduce a car seat and a harness that spread forces out over a larger area of the body etc. I am not doubting your expertise just trying to understand. Like US Navy I have read that forces around 15K in a climbing harness produces some dire results on the human body. Not necessarily death but close. With a climbing harness a lot of the force will be applied to the back of the spine which will probably not happen in a car. Please expand on your sources and thoughts using simple terms for those of us who are not as educated in the physics of impact.
Thanks, I always enjoy your posts.
David


JimTitt


Feb 17, 2013, 6:57 AM
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david_g48 wrote:
Jim
Are you comparing apples to apples when you use race car drivers and climbers? There are a lot of different dynamics when you introduce a car seat and a harness that spread forces out over a larger area of the body etc. I am not doubting your expertise just trying to understand. Like US Navy I have read that forces around 15K in a climbing harness produces some dire results on the human body. Not necessarily death but close. With a climbing harness a lot of the force will be applied to the back of the spine which will probably not happen in a car. Please expand on your sources and thoughts using simple terms for those of us who are not as educated in the physics of impact.
Thanks, I always enjoy your posts.
David

"Well I did write "While all of these are in the more advantageous body position" for that very reason!
USNavy´s contention was that the human body can´t withstand 12kN or so and there are also other posters on the climbing forums that seem to have the impression that around this level humans spontaneously turn to a mush of bones and organs dripping out of their harness. Clearly this isn´t the case. From the little I´ve read the major danger in high g-force impacts is rupture of the aorta which may or may not occur around 70g.
Other peripheral damage is what concerns us and why the impact level is set much lower since it is not merely survival which is required but surviving without severe injury or in an industrial fall-arrest context no injury. How and why the levels in the various standards are derived are mostly explained here http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2002/crr02411.pdf which gives a good insight into where the difficulties lie.
It´s worth noting that aircraft seating for example is designed to withstand 16g and allow the occupant to be able to exit under their own power so clearly the FAA feel one can easily survive this level of impact without debilitating injury (this is part of the test). The central seat belt anchorage point in your car has to hold 40kN which also implies that even with the poor restraint offered by this design impacts of this level are survivable and worth protecting against.


rocknice2


Feb 20, 2013, 5:08 AM
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There was a test done in the late 40's by the USAF on ejection seats. This report is not the 1947 study but another study done later in 1967.

http://www.dtic.mil/...GetTRDoc?AD=AD664553

on page 25 - JOHN H. HENZEL, CAPTAIN, USAF, MC wrote:
U. S. ejection catapult specifications necessary to optimize chances of safe escape from aircraft were accurately defined between 1945 and 1947. Ames (1947-1948), aware of the increased
dynamic overshooting that occurs with high onset rates, cautioned during that period that such
overshoot would be negligible with onset rates below 200 G/sec. In 1947, ejection seat equipment
developed by the Army Air Forces and the Ordnance Department provided a terminal velocity
of 60 ft/sec with a maximum of 14-16 G on the subject at a rate of 175 to 200 G/sec.

This 15G limit should equal 12kn for an 80kg mass if my math is right. Which it's not in many cases.
The human body can withstand incredibly high G forces up to 300G but for very very short periods of time.


qtrollip


Feb 20, 2013, 8:25 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Spectra vs. Nylon [In reply to]
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So where does Petzl's new Spirit dogbones - made from Polyester - fit into all of this?

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Climbing/Carabiners/Quickdraws/PRD~5031-654/petzl-spirit-express-quickdraw.jsp


USnavy


Feb 20, 2013, 9:25 PM
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qtrollip wrote:
So where does Petzl's new Spirit dogbones - made from Polyester - fit into all of this?

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Climbing/Carabiners/Quickdraws/PRD~5031-654/petzl-spirit-express-quickdraw.jsp
Polyester stretches less than nylon, but more than Dyneema. I would consider polyester to be a very low stretch material. Polyester slackline webbing generally stretches about 1/4th to 1/3rd as much as nylon slackline webbing. Of course we have to account for different weaves and material surface area, but you get the point.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 20, 2013, 9:27 PM)


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