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Libbster


Feb 13, 2013, 8:53 AM
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What should I use?
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So I was going to start and practicing cleaning routes in my local rock gym. What should I be using for personal anchor. Some say use a daisy chain some say don't

Is this the same as a daisy chain? http://www.backcountry.com/metolius-pas-personal-anchor-system-w-element-locking-carabiner-met0362

Should I use something like this PAS?


gblauer
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Feb 13, 2013, 9:10 AM
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I doubt your gym will let you do that. Too much liability.


lena_chita
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Feb 13, 2013, 9:11 AM
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Nobody will let you to just start practicing this at a gym without taking some kind of class. So, instead of asking here, ask at the gym about taking a class, and in the class they will tell you exactly what they recommend, and/or what they allow people to use in their gym.

It is unlikely to be a daisy chain. and PAS is designed for a different type of climbing, though people who have one can certainly choose to use it for this.

most likely, they will have you use quickdraws, or slings girth-hitched to your harness with locking 'biners on the other side.


bearbreeder


Feb 13, 2013, 9:26 AM
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1. mount 2 chains on a fence post ...

2. practice on that over and over again

3. go to a real crag with an experienced person

4. get him to double check how you do it

5. practice over and over again

6. go on RC and tell everyone the many ways they are going to die if they dont do exactly as you do Tongue

a lot of eff ups isnt
with the cleaning itself but miscommunication

Wink


jeepnphreak


Feb 14, 2013, 8:19 AM
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1, as bear said practice on the ground first, the concepts are the exact as if you are 100 feet up.

and SECOND, LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DAISY CHAIN AND A PAS. A DAISY IS FOR AID CLIMBING ONLY AND A PAS IS A PERSONAL ANCHOR. A PAS HAS FULLY RATED LOOPS WHERE AS A DAISY IS OLNY FILLY RATED AT THE ENDS, THE LOOPS ARE ONLY 2-3 KN EACH.

TWO YEARS A AGO I WAS 1 ROUTE OVER FROM A GROUP, CLIMBER "A" HAD A DAISY AND CLIPED THE TACK BAR WHILE CLEANING AND SLIPED, THE STITCH BROKE AND THE CLIMBER DECKED FROM 50 FEET UP. THE BINER WAS STILL ON THE ANCHOR ABOVE. HE DID NOT DIE BUT IS WAS BAD
THAT IS NOT SOMETHING ONE EVER HAS TO WHITNESSES.


Partner cracklover


Feb 14, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Re: [Libbster] What should I use? [In reply to]
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Libbster wrote:
So I was going to start and practicing cleaning routes in my local rock gym. What should I be using for personal anchor. Some say use a daisy chain some say don't

Is this the same as a daisy chain? http://www.backcountry.com/metolius-pas-personal-anchor-system-w-element-locking-carabiner-met0362

Should I use something like this PAS?

Cleaning routes? You don't need a personal anchor. You unclip all the biners until you get to the anchor. You don't unclip from those. And then you lower. Same as toproping, aside from the unclipping part.

GO


BillyCrook


Feb 15, 2013, 9:01 AM
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Libbster wrote:
So I was going to start and practicing cleaning routes in my local rock gym. What should I be using for personal anchor.

Direct anchor. When you 'go in, direct', you should use two of whatever you're comfortable with really. I use one PAS girthed around both harness loops, and one quickdraw from the belay loop. I like attaching the PAS first, because I keep two FS Mini's on the last link, wrap it around my waist and tuck it in like a towel. This way it's instant to get it out and clip it in. Then I shorten it as needed with the second biner. Once the PAS is on one anchor, I use a QD for the other anchor.

Some people use two long slings to go in direct, girth hitched around both horizontal harness loops.

Some people use just quickdraws. They work, but they're short, and can't attach to both harness loops like a girth hitched PAS or sling can.

Some people want locking biners for security sake. I prefer tiny wiregates because they are quicker and going in direct is temporary anyway.

Libbster wrote:
Some say use a daisy chain some say don't

Don't. Daisy chains are obsolete. I'm surprised they're even still sold. The best use for them I've heard of, is "as a gear sling"!

Libbster wrote:
Is this the same as a daisy chain? http://www.backcountry.com/metolius-pas-personal-anchor-system-w-element-locking-carabiner-met0362
Should I use something like this PAS?

Yes, the Metoleus PAS above is great. It is not the same as a daisy chain. It is the replacement for the daisy chain.


csproul


Feb 15, 2013, 9:08 AM
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Re: [BillyCrook] What should I use? [In reply to]
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BillyCrook wrote:
Daisy chains are obsolete. I'm surprised they're even still sold. The best use for them I've heard of, is "as a gear sling"!.

For cleaning anchors at the top of routes, yes. For aid climbing...not so much.


BillyCrook


Feb 15, 2013, 9:15 AM
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csproul wrote:
BillyCrook wrote:
Daisy chains are obsolete. I'm surprised they're even still sold. The best use for them I've heard of, is "as a gear sling"!.

For cleaning anchors at the top of routes, yes. For aid climbing...not so much.

OP was asking about anchors, and didn't mention aid at all. Curious though, how are daisy's better than dynema chains for aid? (aside from cost)


csproul


Feb 15, 2013, 9:47 AM
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Re: [BillyCrook] What should I use? [In reply to]
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BillyCrook wrote:
csproul wrote:
BillyCrook wrote:
Daisy chains are obsolete. I'm surprised they're even still sold. The best use for them I've heard of, is "as a gear sling"!.

For cleaning anchors at the top of routes, yes. For aid climbing...not so much.

OP was asking about anchors, and didn't mention aid at all. Curious though, how are daisy's better than dynema chains for aid? (aside from cost)
The pockets are too far apart on PAS-type chains. The closer spacing on a real daisy allows better adjustment. Daisy chains are not "obsolete" and there are much better uses for them than "as a gear sling". Some might argue that the adjustable daisy has made traditional daisies obsolete even for aid climbing, but I don't agree.


bearbreeder


Feb 15, 2013, 10:01 AM
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i use a daisy occasionally to set up raps/lowers ... course i only clip one pocket at a time

does this mean im going to die a horrible RC induced death Wink

what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different

Tongue


chadnsc


Feb 15, 2013, 12:44 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
i use a daisy occasionally to set up raps/lowers ... course i only clip one pocket at a time

does this mean im going to die a horrible RC induced death Wink

what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different

Tongue

So what you're saying is that you don't actually climb much and simply post BS here; a site that you dislike and ridicule?

Actually that makes a lot of sense!


bearbreeder


Feb 15, 2013, 1:17 PM
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chadnsc wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
i use a daisy occasionally to set up raps/lowers ... course i only clip one pocket at a time

does this mean im going to die a horrible RC induced death Wink

what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different

Tongue

So what you're saying is that you don't actually climb much and simply post BS here; a site that you dislike and ridicule?

Actually that makes a lot of sense!

Im doing a few tr solo laps in the bluffs as i type this little chaddy

Why dont you post up some pics of your trad leads from last week which im sure you have as a hardcore RCer

Ill post up mine when i get back to a real puter Tongue


chadnsc


Feb 15, 2013, 1:35 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
i use a daisy occasionally to set up raps/lowers ... course i only clip one pocket at a time

does this mean im going to die a horrible RC induced death Wink

what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different

Tongue

So what you're saying is that you don't actually climb much and simply post BS here; a site that you dislike and ridicule?

Actually that makes a lot of sense!

Im doing a few tr solo laps in the bluffs as i type this little chaddy

Why dont you post up some pics of your trad leads from last week which im sure you have as a hardcore RCer

Ill post up mine when i get back to a real puter Tongue

Sure you are. Sure. T0


bearbreeder


Feb 15, 2013, 2:01 PM
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No pics from last week?

Whuddah sad little boi u r Wink

Im jumping on fear of flying right now ... A nice soft slab ... U can google it and ill post a pic with my feelings for ya babiii tonight Tongue

Are ya leading on reel rock today? This week perhaps? This month?


majid_sabet


Feb 15, 2013, 2:06 PM
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chadnsc wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
i use a daisy occasionally to set up raps/lowers ... course i only clip one pocket at a time

does this mean im going to die a horrible RC induced death Wink

what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different

Tongue

So what you're saying is that you don't actually climb much and simply post BS here; a site that you dislike and ridicule?

Actually that makes a lot of sense!


yep, his has been BSing us all along and sad part is that he understands some climbing


bearbreeder


Feb 15, 2013, 2:13 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
i use a daisy occasionally to set up raps/lowers ... course i only clip one pocket at a time

does this mean im going to die a horrible RC induced death Wink

what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different

Tongue

So what you're saying is that you don't actually climb much and simply post BS here; a site that you dislike and ridicule?

Actually that makes a lot of sense!


yep, his has been BSing us all along and sad part is that he understands some climbing

says thr little gurl hater who doesnt even climb

Why dont u post pics of of whatever TRAD LEAD you did this week mahhjeed

After all you are a RC climbing "expert" ... Or a hypocrit who cant even lead a 5.8 Wink


BillyCrook


Feb 15, 2013, 7:08 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
Why dont u post pics of of whatever TRAD LEAD you did this week mahhjeed

Yes. Pose for a camera to demonstrate you're a proficient climber. Don't forget to hold a ruler up to your dick too.


bearbreeder


Feb 15, 2013, 7:43 PM
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awww ... pooh biwwie iz sad that he didnt climb on reel rock lately ... why dont YOU post up some of the "poses" you did this month on rock, not on RC Wink

fear of flying soft 11a slab/face from today ... im pointing out the route to ya Tongue



at the top with my deadly non-rc approved setup ... note the 40$ el cheapo rock pillar shoes, 20$ harness which im testing out .. and the deadly dyneema PAS Wink



lets you think im a toppu roperu tofu guy ... ill prove that i "pose" for those pics on lead so that i can "pretend" to be a REAL RC climber ... all photos from the weekend ... if you climb in squamish youll know these climbs

the softest "11a" micro wire crack youll ever do ... its 5.9 with the right beta



soft 11- crack/face ... two move wonder



fairly rated mid 10 flake ...



biatch of a 12- underclinb/face climb ... note the wet streak at the right for the crux footholds ... had to bail in shame



i can dig up more from the weekend ... but FIRST i want you and a few people above to post what THEY DID this month

im a shitty ass lazy climber whos effing weak right now ...

you can call me weak, but you better climb harder than me

you can call me afraid of my own shadow, but you better take more whippers than me

you can call me a non-climber poser if you want, but you damn well better climb MORE than me ...

so go ahead and show us how much you climbed this week, since you folks are the "experts"

Tongue

and just for you little billie ... i expect you to start emailing these 2 gumbies about how they are going to die from their deadly daisies ... theyre probably too busy climbing to care, but you can find em on the dawn wall this fall




(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 15, 2013, 7:50 PM)


jt512


Feb 15, 2013, 8:30 PM
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jeepnphreak wrote:
1, as bear said practice on the ground first, the concepts are the exact as if you are 100 feet up.

and SECOND, LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DAISY CHAIN AND A PAS. A DAISY IS FOR AID CLIMBING ONLY AND A PAS IS A PERSONAL ANCHOR. A PAS HAS FULLY RATED LOOPS WHERE AS A DAISY IS OLNY FILLY RATED AT THE ENDS, THE LOOPS ARE ONLY 2-3 KN EACH.

TWO YEARS A AGO I WAS 1 ROUTE OVER FROM A GROUP, CLIMBER "A" HAD A DAISY AND CLIPED THE TACK BAR WHILE CLEANING AND SLIPED, THE STITCH BROKE AND THE CLIMBER DECKED FROM 50 FEET UP. THE BINER WAS STILL ON THE ANCHOR ABOVE. HE DID NOT DIE BUT IS WAS BAD
THAT IS NOT SOMETHING ONE EVER HAS TO WHITNESSES.

Interesting post. The language has a vague resemblance to English.

Jay


BillyCrook


Feb 15, 2013, 9:09 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
why dont YOU post up some of the "poses" you did this month on rock

Nice pics. thanks. keep em coming.


chadnsc


Feb 16, 2013, 6:41 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
No pics from last week?

Whuddah sad little boi u r Wink

Im jumping on fear of flying right now ... A nice soft slab ... U can google it and ill post a pic with my feelings for ya babiii tonight Tongue

Are ya leading on reel rock today? This week perhaps? This month?

Nope it's winter up here now. Although I did manage to backpack around 40 miles a couple weekends ago. The snow was shallow so we could make great time and with only 14k of elevation change the hiking wasn't that difficult. Temps where also not that bad, 15 F for the day, -10 F for the nights.













chadnsc


Feb 16, 2013, 6:46 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:

im a shitty ass lazy climber whos effing weak right now ...

you can call me weak, but you better climb harder than me

you can call me afraid of my own shadow, but you better take more whippers than me

you can call me a non-climber poser if you want, but you damn well better climb MORE than me ...

so go ahead and show us how much you climbed this week, since you folks are the "experts"

You really have a lot of your self worth and ego wrapped up in climbing. You're seriously defending your climbing to a bunch of anonymous people on a climbing site that you yourself troll and view as a joke?

Get some help man.


While a good rant you're contradicting yourself too much. This can be a good troll tactic but try being a bit more subtle.


csproul


Feb 16, 2013, 8:20 AM
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You and I both know climbers with years of experience that climb pretty hard that have some less than ideal habits and practices. I can personally tell you about plenty of good climbers with decades of experience that have shitty belay practices or do some things I regard as sketchy. Sure, I don't go around telling them that they're going to die, but I sure as hell speak up if I think they're going to impact MY safety. Climbing ability, mileage, and experience are important...but they are not the be-all end-all of my decision making. I like to try to make informed decisions based on available data as well as my and other's experience. It's called thinking for yourself and not just following whatever Tommy is doing on Dawn Wall. You can post all the pictures you like of how much and how hard you climb, but I'll take the opinion of someone like rgold over yours any day...someone with experience and the ability to rationally support their choices and not say it must be ok since you climb more pitches and climb harder than anyone else. You really have stooped to the same bullshit that you have accused Jay of.

BTW how is there that much sun in Squamish, especially this time of year? I thought it rained there all the time!? Hell, it's even snowing in North Carolina right now.


(This post was edited by csproul on Feb 16, 2013, 8:21 AM)


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 9:00 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:

im a shitty ass lazy climber whos effing weak right now ...

you can call me weak, but you better climb harder than me

you can call me afraid of my own shadow, but you better take more whippers than me

you can call me a non-climber poser if you want, but you damn well better climb MORE than me ...

so go ahead and show us how much you climbed this week, since you folks are the "experts"

You really have a lot of your self worth and ego wrapped up in climbing. You're seriously defending your climbing to a bunch of anonymous people on a climbing site that you yourself troll and view as a joke?

Get some help man.


While a good rant you're contradicting yourself too much. This can be a good troll tactic but try being a bit more subtle.

if youre going to tell people they dont climb little dimped chad

you better be out climbing more ... ya little hypocrit ...

i noticed you posted NON rockclimbing photos ... pot calling the kettle black

utter and total contempt

Wink


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 9:15 AM
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csproul wrote:
You and I both know climbers with years of experience that climb pretty hard that have some less than ideal habits and practices. I can personally tell you about plenty of good climbers with decades of experience that have shitty belay practices or do some things I regard as sketchy. Sure, I don't go around telling them that they're going to die, but I sure as hell speak up if I think they're going to impact MY safety. Climbing ability, mileage, and experience are important...but they are not the be-all end-all of my decision making. I like to try to make informed decisions based on available data as well as my and other's experience. It's called thinking for yourself and not just following whatever Tommy is doing on Dawn Wall. You can post all the pictures you like of how much and how hard you climb, but I'll take the opinion of someone like rgold over yours any day...someone with experience and the ability to rationally support their choices and not say it must be ok since you climb more pitches and climb harder than anyone else. You really have stooped to the same bullshit that you have accused Jay of.

BTW how is there that much sun in Squamish, especially this time of year? I thought it rained there all the time!? Hell, it's even snowing in North Carolina right now.

and tell me how one would die clipping ONE loop of a daisy any more than any other sling Wink

i dont climb harder than many people ...or even more ... but i do go out and climb as much as and as hard i can, unlike a few of these RC "experts" above

the reality is what people tell you to do on intraweb forums has little relevance on outdoor climbing

if you "listened" to people on internet forums youre going to die from such killers as ... dyneema, PASes, daisies, cross loading belay biners, dynamic belays, screamers, gri gris, the deadly autoblock, 7 kn biners, sliding X, top rope anchors on 2 good bolts, etc ...

what people go off about on RC, isnt whats even remotely likely to kill you or get you hurt

again i ask how clipping a SINGLE loop of a daisy is deadly than a PAS, or a sling ... especially a nylon daisy

the difference between me and some fun RCers ... i dont tell people that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way ... i DO however tell those RCers who do that they really have no relevance, and they get upset Tongue

squamish has a lot of rain ... but youll generally get at least 1-2 + days a week of dryish weather even in winter ... the hardest slabs up here get sent in winter

once its gets warmer next month ill be climbing 3+ days a week, but dont worry, theres still reception everywhere in squamish for plenty of intraweb fun at belays Angelic


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 16, 2013, 9:17 AM)


chadnsc


Feb 16, 2013, 9:36 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:

im a shitty ass lazy climber whos effing weak right now ...

you can call me weak, but you better climb harder than me

you can call me afraid of my own shadow, but you better take more whippers than me

you can call me a non-climber poser if you want, but you damn well better climb MORE than me ...

so go ahead and show us how much you climbed this week, since you folks are the "experts"

You really have a lot of your self worth and ego wrapped up in climbing. You're seriously defending your climbing to a bunch of anonymous people on a climbing site that you yourself troll and view as a joke?

Get some help man.


While a good rant you're contradicting yourself too much. This can be a good troll tactic but try being a bit more subtle.

if youre going to tell people they dont climb little dimped chad

you better be out climbing more ... ya little hypocrit ...

i noticed you posted NON rockclimbing photos ... pot calling the kettle black

utter and total contempt

Wink

I was just following the online wisdom of a great online climber. Tongue



bearbreeder wrote:
what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 9:49 AM
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you are indeed a "great" RC "expert" climber ... ya non-climbing thang Tongue

a few more non-climbing totally posed photos with awwwsum photoshop ... from this week


partner cleaning my gear on the "first 5.12 in north america" ... realistically it is a one move wonder with most of it being 5.9 ... took a whipper on a micronut and tested out my 20$ deadly harness ... partner was probably a bit pissed as he thought it was "mostly 5.9" which it was Tongue



my partner on the classic ultrasoft squamish "10-", really a 5.8, before he took a whipper on my 30$ rock empire cam ... god i luv it when other people test your gear that the intrawebbers tell ya yr gonna die on



ya should just go climb Wink


csproul


Feb 16, 2013, 9:51 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
csproul wrote:
You and I both know climbers with years of experience that climb pretty hard that have some less than ideal habits and practices. I can personally tell you about plenty of good climbers with decades of experience that have shitty belay practices or do some things I regard as sketchy. Sure, I don't go around telling them that they're going to die, but I sure as hell speak up if I think they're going to impact MY safety. Climbing ability, mileage, and experience are important...but they are not the be-all end-all of my decision making. I like to try to make informed decisions based on available data as well as my and other's experience. It's called thinking for yourself and not just following whatever Tommy is doing on Dawn Wall. You can post all the pictures you like of how much and how hard you climb, but I'll take the opinion of someone like rgold over yours any day...someone with experience and the ability to rationally support their choices and not say it must be ok since you climb more pitches and climb harder than anyone else. You really have stooped to the same bullshit that you have accused Jay of.

BTW how is there that much sun in Squamish, especially this time of year? I thought it rained there all the time!? Hell, it's even snowing in North Carolina right now.

and tell me how one would die clipping ONE loop of a daisy any more than any other sling Wink

i dont climb harder than many people ...or even more ... but i do go out and climb as much as and as hard i can, unlike a few of these RC "experts" above

the reality is what people tell you to do on intraweb forums has little relevance on outdoor climbing

if you "listened" to people on internet forums youre going to die from such killers as ... dyneema, PASes, daisies, cross loading belay biners, dynamic belays, screamers, gri gris, the deadly autoblock, 7 kn biners, sliding X, top rope anchors on 2 good bolts, etc ...

what people go off about on RC, isnt whats even remotely likely to kill you or get you hurt

again i ask how clipping a SINGLE loop of a daisy is deadly than a PAS, or a sling ... especially a nylon daisy

the difference between me and some fun RCers ... i dont tell people that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way ... i DO however tell those RCers who do that they really have no relevance, and they get upset Tongue

squamish has a lot of rain ... but youll generally get at least 1-2 + days a week of dryish weather even in winter ... the hardest slabs up here get sent in winter

once its gets warmer next month ill be climbing 3+ days a week, but dont worry, theres still reception everywhere in squamish for plenty of intraweb fun at belays Angelic
I never once said anything about clipping into a daisy. You're talking to the wrong person. You are still under the false assumption that how much you climb, how hard you climb, or how many people are doing something are the only relevant indicators of whether something is safe or not. They're important, sure, but there is nothing wrong with lab testing, theory, or just plain old reasoning and common sense. Sometimes they give us ideas that just never occurred to climbers out in the field. You may not tell others here "that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way", but you pretty much do something that is almost as bad. You tell people here that they're going to be just fine doing something just because everyone else is doing it, or worse yet, because Sonny Trotter does it. It's fine to offer up an argument as to why you don't agree with someones opinion, but you don't do that. So really, you're no better than most of the RC'ers that you make fun of. Or, maybe I'm just bitter that it's snowing and I'm stuck for the next couple of months with work and won't be climbing all that much.


csproul


Feb 16, 2013, 10:02 AM
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PS, people's opinions aren't always a matter of safety either. Sometimes they're just opinions on how they like to do something. Sometimes, they even have good reasons for those opinions. Using a daisy for cleaning anchors is a good example of this. I think that using one for this purpose is silly. Not because I think it is unsafe, but because I generally don't want to carry extra crap up the climb and because there is almost always extra draws/slings on hand to clip into the anchors. So, I'd offer my opinion that a daisy is not the best use of a noob's money, at least for anchor cleaning. See there...I can offer an opinion without belittling anyone and can give (what I think) are good reasons for that opinion that have nothing to do with how much/hard I climb or whether I have a picture of Beth Rodden using a daisy. You should try it.


(This post was edited by csproul on Feb 16, 2013, 10:17 AM)


chadnsc


Feb 16, 2013, 10:05 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
you are indeed a "great" RC "expert" climber ... ya non-climbing thang Tongue

a few more non-climbing totally posed photos with awwwsum photoshop ... from this week


partner cleaning my gear on the "first 5.12 in north america" ... realistically it is a one move wonder with most of it being 5.9 ... took a whipper on a micronut and tested out my 20$ deadly harness ... partner was probably a bit pissed as he thought it was "mostly 5.9" which it was Tongue

[image]http://i46.tinypic.com/2eanqfc.jpg
[/image]

my partner on the classic ultrasoft squamish "10-", really a 5.8, before he took a whipper on my 30$ rock empire cam ... god i luv it when other people test your gear that the intrawebbers tell ya yr gonna die on

[image]http://i49.tinypic.com/358xesx.jpg[/image]

ya should just go climb Wink


Those look like nice lines. It looks like you had some unusually dry weather in your area this past week.

I'd love go get out but alas it's winter and the pin in my shoulder doesn't agree with ice climbing anymore. For the next couple of months I'll be cast into the gym for some short 45 foot climbs on plastic.

Then again I do get to go winter backpacking!


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 10:11 AM
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csproul wrote:
I never once said anything about clipping into a daisy. You're talking to the wrong person. You are still under the false assumption that how much you climb, how hard you climb, or how many people are doing something are the only relevant indicators of whether something is safe or not. They're important, sure, but there is nothing wrong with lab testing, theory, or just plain old reasoning and common sense. Sometimes they give us ideas that just never occurred to climbers out in the field. You may not tell others here "that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way", but you pretty much do something that is almost as bad. You tell people here that they're going to be just fine doing something just because everyone else is doing it, or worse yet, because Sonny Trotter does it. It's fine to offer up an argument as to why you don't agree with someones opinion, but you don't do that. So really, you're no better than most of the RC'ers that you make fun of. Or, maybe I'm just bitter that it's snowing and I'm stuck for the next couple of months with work and won't be climbing all that much.

i tell people to USE THEIR BRAINS ...

if they dont want to use daisies ... thats up to them ... if they do ... again thats up to them, which is fine if you clip one loop at a time

make a REALISTIC assessment of whats going to kill you ... it aint what everyone on the intraweb is screaming about ...

basic rapelling safety, basic belaying (which many "experienced" RCers still dont get as evidenced by the dynamic belaying threads), rock fall hazards, weather conditions, protecting leader falls properly, etc ...

these are topics that dont get too much attention on RC

and these are NOT the things you learn on a intraweb forum

you learn these from going out with someone who knows (not some intraweb top rope tough guy) and climbing as much as you can and practicing those skills OVER AND OVER again

once you climb enough youll end up in situations where not everything is black and white ... youll be totally out of gear, youll be cold tired and hungry, youll be stuck, youll have dropped shiet, youll have a rappel rope not long enough Wink

and its the SKILLS and your BRAIN which will get you through those situations

all the discussion about deadly this, deadly that, death biners, dont use an autoblock, real climbers dont use gri gris, etc ... will be totally useless then (and always)

if you climb enough, youll also climb with partners who doesnt do it your way, or the "RC do it my way or die" ... youre simply going to have to make a judgement and use yr brain ...

like i said what "climbing experts" yak about on the intrawebs forums .. and what happens every day with "safe" climbers, or any climbers, including people who have climbed more and/or longer than the intraweb experts is extreme

intraweb forums generally have no real relevance to climbing in the real world ... they are however great fun Wink

the one place to "learn" on RC is the A&I forum ... those are real life scenarios

bitter? ... just take a trip ... or move Tongue

PS ... as for "belittling" ... i belittle the belittlers generally, if you havent noticed ... the tend to get a bit mad about it Angelic


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 16, 2013, 10:14 AM)


Syd


Feb 16, 2013, 12:26 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
if they dont want to use daisies ... thats up to them ... if they do ... again thats up to them, which is fine if you clip one loop at a time

This may be of interest:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-lab-daisy-chain-dangers-en-glbl-en-us

I'm not a trad nor an aid climber, I'm no expert and I've never had a need to use daisies.


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 12:45 PM
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Syd wrote:

This may be of interest:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-lab-daisy-chain-dangers-en-glbl-en-us

I'm not a trad nor an aid climber, I'm no expert and I've never had a need to use daisies.

note that they demonstrate the dangers of clipping TWO loops on a daisy

a single loop wont have that issue ... a daisy after all is a fully rated sling end to end

tell me how a nylon daisy is going to fail from clipping ONE loop ..

in fact if i was a theoretical "RC experts", id say that using a nylon daisy is 'safer' than a knotted sling (nylon or not) or those PASes for raps

but i wont since in the real world it wont matter ...

when was the last time you heard of a climber dying because they clipped ONE loop of a daisy for a rap setup ... id be interested in the accident report

Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 16, 2013, 12:51 PM)


Syd


Feb 16, 2013, 1:46 PM
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Do you mean just using the ends like a normal sling ? Should be no problem.


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 1:55 PM
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or clip one end and any SINGLE loop ...

a nylon daisy wont fail ... an individual pocket might blow in rare circumstances, but the damn thing is a fully rated sling end to end


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 16, 2013, 1:57 PM)


chadnsc


Feb 16, 2013, 2:13 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
or clip one end and any SINGLE loop ...

a nylon daisy wont fail ... an individual pocket might blow in rare circumstances, but the damn thing is a fully rated sling end to end

Yup, and the idea is that if the bar tacked loop that you're clipped into did blow (partially or fully) then it acts like a screamer dissipating some of the force on the climber.

Of course this isn't the intended use of a daisy chain but I've seen it work.

Edit: I still can't type or spell worth a damn.


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Feb 16, 2013, 2:16 PM)


theextremist04


Feb 16, 2013, 3:45 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
csproul wrote:
I never once said anything about clipping into a daisy. You're talking to the wrong person. You are still under the false assumption that how much you climb, how hard you climb, or how many people are doing something are the only relevant indicators of whether something is safe or not. They're important, sure, but there is nothing wrong with lab testing, theory, or just plain old reasoning and common sense. Sometimes they give us ideas that just never occurred to climbers out in the field. You may not tell others here "that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way", but you pretty much do something that is almost as bad. You tell people here that they're going to be just fine doing something just because everyone else is doing it, or worse yet, because Sonny Trotter does it. It's fine to offer up an argument as to why you don't agree with someones opinion, but you don't do that. So really, you're no better than most of the RC'ers that you make fun of. Or, maybe I'm just bitter that it's snowing and I'm stuck for the next couple of months with work and won't be climbing all that much.

i tell people to USE THEIR BRAINS ...
Speak for yourself, but even daisies are rated higher than my brain when it comes to strength.


Syd


Feb 16, 2013, 4:04 PM
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The danger suggested in the video is that it's very easy to do this incorectly, leaving no attachment. Mistakes are easily made under a bit of stress.
https://vimeo.com/14679471#


chadnsc


Feb 16, 2013, 4:25 PM
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Syd wrote:
The danger suggested in the video is that it's very easy to do this incorectly, leaving no attachment. Mistakes are easily made under a bit of stress.
https://vimeo.com/14679471#

Not an issue if you use one biner to clip one loop.

Now if you use one biner on two loops (end of daisy and a bar tacked loop) then you could be fucked.


No personal anchor system is fool proof. Every single personal anchor system used today has a way(s) that if implemented will result in it's failure.


jt512


Feb 16, 2013, 6:46 PM
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chadnsc wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
or clip one end and any SINGLE loop ...

a nylon daisy wont fail ... an individual pocket might blow in rare circumstances, but the damn thing is a fully rated sling end to end

Yup, and the idea is that if the bar tacked loop that you're clipped into did blow (partially or fully) then it acts like a screamer dissipating some of the force on the climber.

Whoever had that idea needs to think again. Daisies aren't Screamers. Screamers are designed for the stitching to rip. Daisies are not. When the pockets of a daisy rip out, the webbing itself can be damaged. Daisies have failed in factor-2 falls in the field and in the lab, as Chris Harmston, former BD Quality Assurance Manager explains:

Chris Harmsto wrote:
Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing

Daisy's are weaker than runners because, as the pockets rip out, damage to
the webbing occurs at the pocket tacks. In static testing the pockets rip
out until you are in the standard runner configuration. The web breaks at
the damaged area of one of the pocket tacks.

In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright
without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor
2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the
slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not
stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and
use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability. I have heard reports
of daisy's breaking in factor 2 aid falls. The samples I have seen that
broke in the field were fairly well worn. Daisy's get worn quite quickly
and their strength degrades accordingly. Use your rope as the primary
anchor!

Chris Harmston
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124

Source: http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html

Jay


chadnsc


Feb 16, 2013, 7:00 PM
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Didn't say that was what happened Jay; just that was the idea that is perpetuated. Thanks for linking that study!

I've seen a single pocket rip on a very short fall and as the study you linked reported there was visible damage to the webbing.

As such I like to use some cord and a purcel prussic as my personal anchor. Actually I'll use the PP as my initial anchor tie in then clove hitch my rope to the anchor whenever possible.


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 8:11 PM
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all this was hashed out on RC before ... which of course is about all telling people to do stuff only your or my way ....

just one of the ways that youll die on RC that has no bearing on what happens in the real world Wink

Hi,

I currently have a few Yates Daisies. I have been told be various
"experts" that the blowing a single 4 kN pocket on a daisy can
compromise the entire 22 kN sling itself, thus causing the failure of
the entire daisy.

Could you let me know if this is true?

Thanks for you help,


.....


As long as you are connected in CORRECTLY to the daisy and not clipping
between loops(Death Clipping). Our daisy's will pull the pockets at 4-5kN
without damaging the structural integrity of the webbing.
The daisy still
tests over 22kN end to end. Hope this helps

John Yates



jt512


Feb 16, 2013, 10:45 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
all this was hashed out on RC before ... which of course is about all telling people to do stuff only your or my way ....

just one of the ways that youll die on RC that has no bearing on what happens in the real world Wink

Hi,

I currently have a few Yates Daisies. I have been told be various
"experts" that the blowing a single 4 kN pocket on a daisy can
compromise the entire 22 kN sling itself, thus causing the failure of
the entire daisy.

Could you let me know if this is true?

Thanks for you help,


.....


As long as you are connected in CORRECTLY to the daisy and not clipping
between loops(Death Clipping). Our daisy's will pull the pockets at 4-5kN
without damaging the structural integrity of the webbing.
The daisy still
tests over 22kN end to end. Hope this helps

John Yates

So, Yates claims their daisies are not susceptible to the failure mode that BD found. BD does not disclose what brand of daisies they found failed, so it cannot be determined whether BD observed this failure mode in Yates daisies. Thus, as usual, what point you're trying to make, if any, is unclear.

In the unlikely event that you can follow simple logic, you should easily be able to see that your argument, which amounts to the following, is ludicrous:

1. BD found that some properly clipped daisies can fail in a factor-2 fall.
2. Yates claims that their own daisies cannot.
3. Therefore, BD's findings can safely be ignored.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 16, 2013, 10:46 PM)


bearbreeder


Feb 16, 2013, 11:59 PM
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jt512 wrote:

So, Yates claims their daisies are not susceptible to the failure mode that BD found. BD does not disclose what brand of daisies they found failed, so it cannot be determined whether BD observed this failure mode in Yates daisies. Thus, as usual, what point you're trying to make, if any, is unclear.

In the unlikely event that you can follow simple logic, you should easily be able to see that your argument, which amounts to the following, is ludicrous:

1. BD found that some properly clipped daisies can fail in a factor-2 fall.
2. Yates claims that their own daisies cannot.
3. Therefore, BD's findings can safely be ignored.

Jay

and in the real world this has no relevance, if youre taking FF2 falls on static materials, you should re-evaluate everything you do about climbing ...

but DAMN you just HAVE TO BE RIGHT mista jay ... Wink

heres a REAL drop test that camp did on a dyneema daisy ... but dont worry it didnt break and no dummies died

http://www.climber.co.uk/...item=583&cate=27

so let me ask how many ways the people will die if they clip a single loop of a daisy ... how many have died clipping a single loop of a daisy to clean the anchors or on rap?

clipping a single loop of a daisy aint whats going to kill you ... but then its RC, so thats all we argue about and its deadliness

Tongue


csproul


Feb 17, 2013, 8:50 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
but DAMN you just HAVE TO BE RIGHT mista jay ...
Pot...kettle...black. See, once again, someone has provided a logical argument to support an opinion and you do nothing but belittle them, and the rest of the users on this website for that matter. Same old song.


bearbreeder


Feb 17, 2013, 9:09 AM
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csproul wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
but DAMN you just HAVE TO BE RIGHT mista jay ...
Pot...kettle...black. See, once again, someone has provided a logical argument to support an opinion and you do nothing but belittle them, and the rest of the users on this website for that matter. Same old song.

Belittling mistah jay is a classic example of belittling the belittlers ...

Go cry me a river with yr crocodile tears Wink

The same old daisy argument and the same "evidence" has been hashed out a million tines before

The real story? ... It has no relevance to how and what people climb in the real world ... And clipping a single daisy loop aint ehats going to kill u out there ...

Go out and climb today ... Ill be back for more senseless intraweb fun after a few pitches Tongue

Weird that people cry about be belittling the belittlers ... When theres active threads about burqas and women who arent good climbers by someone who doesnt even climb ... And much more RC goodness

Crazy


csproul


Feb 17, 2013, 9:19 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
csproul wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
but DAMN you just HAVE TO BE RIGHT mista jay ...
Pot...kettle...black. See, once again, someone has provided a logical argument to support an opinion and you do nothing but belittle them, and the rest of the users on this website for that matter. Same old song.

Belittling mistah jay is a classic example of belittling the belittlers ...

Go cry me a river with yr crocodile tears Wink

The same old daisy argument and the same "evidence" has been hashed out a million tines before

The real story? ... It has no relevance to how and what people climb in the real world ... And clipping a single daisy loop aint ehats going to kill u out there ...

Go out and climb today ... Ill be back for more senseless intraweb fun after a few pitches Tongue

Weird that people cry about be belittling the belittlers ... When theres active threads about burqas and women who arent good climbers by someone who doesnt even climb ... And much more RC goodness

Crazy
And Bear takes the high road yet again...enjoy your climb.


jt512


Feb 17, 2013, 3:45 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] What should I use? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:

So, Yates claims their daisies are not susceptible to the failure mode that BD found. BD does not disclose what brand of daisies they found failed, so it cannot be determined whether BD observed this failure mode in Yates daisies. Thus, as usual, what point you're trying to make, if any, is unclear.

In the unlikely event that you can follow simple logic, you should easily be able to see that your argument, which amounts to the following, is ludicrous:

1. BD found that some properly clipped daisies can fail in a factor-2 fall.
2. Yates claims that their own daisies cannot.
3. Therefore, BD's findings can safely be ignored.

Jay

and in the real world this has no relevance, if youre taking FF2 falls on static materials, you should re-evaluate everything you do about climbing ... ]

You're wrong. In the real word, according to Chris Harmston, daisies have failed from factor-2 falls.

Chris Harmston wrote:
I have heard reports
of daisy's breaking in factor 2 aid falls. The samples I have seen that
broke in the field were fairly well worn. Daisy's get worn quite quickly
and their strength degrades accordingly. Use your rope as the primary
anchor!

Sorry that the facts don't fit your beliefs

Jay


bearbreeder


Feb 17, 2013, 6:45 PM
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Re: [jt512] What should I use? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

Sorry that the facts don't fit your beliefs

just got back from a cold day of cragging Cool

again mistah jay ... if you are taking FF2 falls in the real world cleaning your anchors, and setting up raps ... you have serious skill issues ...

in the real world people dont go off and take FF2 falls cleaning anchors on static materials if they have any brains at all ...

perhaps youd simply provide an accident report where someone cleaning anchors, or setting up for raps has died because their daisy they clipped to a SINGLE loop broke

but then this is RC ..

i presume you wear your helmet on EVERY climb .... since you are MUCH more likely to die from that than the deadly daisies

or are ya just being hypocritical and WANT TO BE RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT Tongue

please provide me with the exact details of these tests, including the fall length, the weights, the harness setup, and whether a rescue dummy was used ... since you are quoting em over and over again ...

i have provided you with the details of the CAMP test where no dummies died Wink

more useless senseless (but FUN!!!) arguments which has no relevance in how people climb in the real world

Smile


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 17, 2013, 6:49 PM)


curt


Feb 17, 2013, 6:48 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
im a shitty ass lazy climber whos effing weak right now ...

you can call me weak, but you better climb harder than me

OK. You're weak.

And, Sentry Box was nowhere near being the first 5.12 in North America.

Curt


bearbreeder


Feb 17, 2013, 6:51 PM
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curt wrote:

OK. You're weak.

And, Sentry Box was nowhere near being the first 5.12 in North America.

Curt

talk to gripped .. Wink

In that year of 1975 Eric Weinstein free-climbed Sentry Box at Squamish, establishing the first 5.12 in North America, ground-up. He was armed with only the stiff-wire nuts and simple hexes of the day, a swami belt around his waist, no chalk bag, no cams, and 1960s-era rock shoes that were of less use than today’s approach shoes. Weinstein pushed his head out on his first 5.12 lead into a new level of difficulty for everyone. Anyone today can try Sentry Box with the same gear, onsight as a first 5.12, but it would take formidable talent to have much chance of success.



http://gripped.com/...s/the-climbing-life/


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 17, 2013, 6:52 PM)


curt


Feb 17, 2013, 7:07 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
curt wrote:

OK. You're weak.

And, Sentry Box was nowhere near being the first 5.12 in North America.

Curt

talk to gripped .. Wink

In that year of 1975 Eric Weinstein free-climbed Sentry Box at Squamish, establishing the first 5.12 in North America, ground-up. He was armed with only the stiff-wire nuts and simple hexes of the day, a swami belt around his waist, no chalk bag, no cams, and 1960s-era rock shoes that were of less use than today’s approach shoes. Weinstein pushed his head out on his first 5.12 lead into a new level of difficulty for everyone. Anyone today can try Sentry Box with the same gear, onsight as a first 5.12, but it would take formidable talent to have much chance of success.



http://gripped.com/...s/the-climbing-life/

1969 - First ascent of Left Side of Doug's Roof (5.12, Gunks) by John Gill.

1972 - First ascent of Paisano Overhang (5.12c, Suicide Rock) by John Long.

1972 - First ascent of Recidivist (5.12, Crow Hill) by Henry Barber.

1973 - First ascent of Have or Have Not (5.12, Gunks) by John Stannard.

1973 - First ascent of Kansas City (5.12, Gunks) by John Bragg.

1974 - First ascent of Kama Sutra (5.12, Gunks) by John Stannard.

1974 - First ascent of Supercrack (5.12, Gunks) by Steve Wunsch.

Source: A History of Free Climbing in America, by Pat Ament, 2002, ISBN 0-89997-320-5

Curt


bearbreeder


Feb 17, 2013, 7:11 PM
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you really should talk to gripped ... i put the quotation marks in there for a reason ... Wink

were all the previous ascents you listed ground up?

http://gripped.com/contact/gripped/


curt


Feb 17, 2013, 7:16 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
you really should talk to gripped ... i put the quotation marks in there for a reason ... Wink

were all the previous ascents you listed ground up?

http://gripped.com/contact/gripped/

I don't know if Largo employed any shenanigans on Paisano, but all of the other routes I listed were done strictly ground up. Gripped should have done their homework.

Curt


bearbreeder


Feb 17, 2013, 7:19 PM
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send em an email ... or post on their fbook ...

cant have damn canuckleheads thinking they have the "first 5.12" Wink

either way ... its a fun squamish classic thats probably a bit soft if i can get my lazy azz up it ...


Partner rgold


Feb 17, 2013, 7:42 PM
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Some things not on Curt's list. This is, of course, US-centric. Climbers in the Elbsansteingebirge were light years ahead of us...

1961 John Gill solos the Thimble, Needles, SD ( 5.12a/b) (A 30' climb, but still...)

1967 Greg Lowe does Macabre Roof Ogden, Utah (5.12c)

1975 Steve Wunsch does Psycho Roof Eldorado , CO (5.12d)
1975 Joseph Healy does City Limits, Giant City IL (5.12c)
1975 Henry Barber does Fish Crack, Yosemite, CA (5.12b)
1975 Kauk and Bachar do Hotline, Yosemite, CA (5.12a)

All ground-up, of course. The only way anything got done in those days.


curt


Feb 17, 2013, 9:29 PM
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curt wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
curt wrote:

OK. You're weak.

And, Sentry Box was nowhere near being the first 5.12 in North America.

Curt

talk to gripped .. Wink

In that year of 1975 Eric Weinstein free-climbed Sentry Box at Squamish, establishing the first 5.12 in North America, ground-up. He was armed with only the stiff-wire nuts and simple hexes of the day, a swami belt around his waist, no chalk bag, no cams, and 1960s-era rock shoes that were of less use than today’s approach shoes. Weinstein pushed his head out on his first 5.12 lead into a new level of difficulty for everyone. Anyone today can try Sentry Box with the same gear, onsight as a first 5.12, but it would take formidable talent to have much chance of success.



http://gripped.com/...s/the-climbing-life/

1969 - First ascent of Left Side of Doug's Roof (5.12, Gunks) by John Gill.

1972 - First ascent of Paisano Overhang (5.12c, Suicide Rock) by John Long.

1972 - First ascent of Recidivist (5.12, Crow Hill) by Henry Barber.

1973 - First ascent of Have or Have Not (5.12, Gunks) by John Stannard.

1973 - First ascent of Kansas City (5.12, Gunks) by John Bragg.

1974 - First ascent of Kama Sutra (5.12, Gunks) by John Stannard.

1974 - First ascent of Supercrack (5.12, Gunks) by Steve Wunsch.

Source: A History of Free Climbing in America, by Pat Ament, 2002, ISBN 0-89997-320-5

Curt

Wow, one rating so far and it's one star. When did facts become so unpopular? I guess he must be a Republican.

Curt


bearbreeder


Feb 17, 2013, 10:03 PM
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its RC ... there is neither rhyme nor reason

c'est le intrawebs ...


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