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Broken carabiner in a lead fall.
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lena_chita
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Apr 1, 2013, 9:02 AM
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Broken carabiner in a lead fall.
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I wrote this for redriverclimbing.com, but I am reposting it here too.

This past Friday, I was climbing Mercy, the Huff. At the 8th bolt, which is, for those who have done the route, right at the lip of the little black rooflet, I made the long move to a crimp, attempted to make another move, and fell. The bolt-side carabiner on the draw had snapped in the fall, and I took a much longer and scarier ride than I was expecting.



Luckily, with a good belayer, and being high up on the route with nothing but air to hit, I was not hurt, other than getting a really big scare.
We have taken some pictures and I think have re-created what happened pretty accurately.

This is how the draw was hanging on the bolt. You can’t see it very well in this picture, but the rock is overhanging enough so that the top biner is not touching the rock in any way. I do know that the draw was hanging straight and not snagged on the bolt, because I was shaking out on the jugs right below it for about a minute after I clipped it, so it was definitely not a desperate clip-and-go-without-noticing-that-the-draw-was-snagged scenario. Besides, it is a key-lock biner, the snagged nose usually happens with notched biners.

These are the marks on the biner that suggest how the biner was positioned on the hanger when it snapped:

Using these marks and a spare bolt hanger, we recreated the likely scenario—in these next three pictures:



My best guess is that I had kicked/snagged the draw as I was making the next long move, because the move does take me directly in front of the draw, and I have to stay close to the wall when making the reach. And then, when I fell, the biner snapped, because it is not meant to be loaded this way.
I have heard of biners breaking in such fashion, and have been aware of the dangers of the biner being snagged/rotated/cross-loaded on the hanger. What really surprised me is how little force is needed to snap the draw this way. When I fell, the bolt was barely a foot below my tie-in knot. I was at the 8th bolt of an ~80ft route, so there was probably ~75 feet of rope out. With slack and soft catch (yes, it was a soft catch, belayer jumped) I would have expected to fall maybe 7-8 feet. The draw was newish, had only been climbed on a handful of times, and was not notched or burred. The rope—also newish, brand-new last fall, and only had maybe 12-14 days of climbing on it, because the owner lives in Florida. There were no falls or takes on the rope in the 3 days prior to this fall, so you can’t even say that the rope was stretched out from too many subsequent falls in a short period of time, and was thus less dynamic that optimal. I weigh 105 lb. Somebody else can try and calculate the forces, but in terms of climbing falls, this is as light as it gets.

What can be learned from this, and how this could have been prevented? Obviously, in general terms, you have to be very aware of the position of your quickdraw, and you should avoid kicking your draws when you climb past them. But in this particular case on this particular bolt and particular moves —I am not sure.

I went back to send this route on the next go, and even though I was obviously HYPER-aware of that draw, I STILL couldn’t avoid snagging and shifting it with my body as I made the move. I cannot stop and adjust the draw mid-move. The first time I can reach down to make an adjustment is after I reach the next jug. But in that case, if I had reached the next jug, there is no falling, and I can make another move and clip the next bolt, anyway.
I have been on this route before, have made the move before, and have fallen there before, without any incident. Considering that this is a redpoint crux of the route for many people, there have been probably 1000s of falls there, and as far as I know biners are not broken right-and-left in this spot, even though I am pretty sure a lot of people do the move the same way I do, and thus have the same potential of getting the draw snagged.
I am thinking that a trad draw might have been good in that spot, because even if I snagged/pulled the rope-side biner, the bolt-side biner would probably not have shifted. But who climbs Mercy with trad biners?  Having a short stainless chain to extend down, so the draw is clipped below the little roof might be helpful, as would be a permadraw, but this is at the Left Flank, no fixed gear, so it’s a moot point.

Opinions, suggestions, and analysis are welcome.

My partner who owned this draw contacted Petzl, but at this point there is no reason to think that this was a defective biner.

The general take-home message for me is to:
-double-check your draws, to make sure they are hanging properly and not snagged or twisted
-avoid kicking or shifting your draws as you climb past them
-look down and double-check that you haven’t kicked them
-be mindful of the fact that you really aren’t out of the “danger zone” when sport climbing until you are fairly high up
-avoid falling when you have only one draw clipped. Angelic None of us have ever fallen on the first draw, right?


amarius


Apr 1, 2013, 9:23 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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Glad to hear you are OK
Was the bolt side gate clipped towards the movement, or away?
Any estimates how many falls this QD has gone through - perhaps there was metal fatigue or crystallization at work? - might a trip to Case Material Sciences be of interest?


Partner xtrmecat


Apr 1, 2013, 9:53 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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  Interesting theory on how it broke. I studied your pics and came up with two unresolved issues.

The lack of a mark on the outside of the tip would suggest to me it may have been wrenched open in a fashion really close to your theorized pics, but with the tip not wrenching against the bolt head. The bolt has a point positioned where this would likely occur.

The other thing that makes me lean away from my hypothesis is the fracture itself. It has clear indications of the nose or tip was in fact pulled away from the spine in some manner. The troubling part is this cannot occur with the gate closed. The first knee jerk is the gate was open, whether the hanger or rock pulled against it, or what really occurred. There is an uneveness to the tearing side to side, but not to suggest a side load, just indicated where the weak spots or stress risers were when the yield started to occur rather than a wrenching torque caused the failure.

Petzl or a metalurgist can likely add much to your solving of the mystery "what done it". Is it practical, not really.

A little unanswered question in my mind, was the fall vertical? Or with some side or outward pull on the draw when the rope came taught? A little jump to make for a clean fall could have perhaps been part of the issues that may or may not have positioned the biner in the perfect wrong position?

I have a background in fracture and failure of metals, although industrial, that makes me just slightly more curious than the average Joe.

Interesting post, and the answer may never be understood. But I can walk away with the reaffirmation that all climbing does have unforeseen risks. When you do everything right, shit can still happen.

Thanks for the quality post and pictures. I hope a newbee or ten fumble through the forum and come across this, and many like it to educate themselves that the unforeseen can and will happen from time to time. Expect it. Also I am glad you enjoyed the ride.

Burly Bob


maldaly


Apr 1, 2013, 10:02 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena, glad you're okay. That's scary shit. I think you're analysis is post on. The digger on the frame near the nose of the 'biner is key. You can see it clearly in the first photo.

Your take-home lessons are right on too. The only thing I'd add is to remember that shit happens. It can happen any time.

Also, as an old trad dude who started by clipping pins, I almost always flip over the bolt end 'biner immediately after clipping. I do this before clipping the rope end. We used to do this to prevent exactly this issue--the 'biner getting hung up in the eye of a pin. I'm trying to quit; it really pisses off whoever gets to clean the draws but, old habits die hard.

climb safe,
Mal


marc801


Apr 1, 2013, 10:18 AM
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Re: [maldaly] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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maldaly wrote:
Also, as an old trad dude who started by clipping pins, I almost always flip over the bolt end 'biner immediately after clipping. I do this before clipping the rope end. We used to do this to prevent exactly this issue--the 'biner getting hung up in the eye of a pin. I'm trying to quit; it really pisses off whoever gets to clean the draws but, old habits die hard.

"The gate is always down and out."
Gee Mal, I always thought it was just me doing that.......
Smile


csproul


Apr 1, 2013, 10:57 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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Would this carbiner have been broken if you had climbed the route tomorrow?


yodadave


Apr 1, 2013, 11:53 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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just played around with your suspected setup a little bit and couldn't get any kind of camming action between the nose and basket pivot shown. I didn't have any pretzl biners at my desk though. Did it seem to seat itself in that position? It would seem that it would have to be pretty solidly stuck in that orientation to stay that way when you fell.

Also despite the nature of your post it still made me miss the Red despite a weekend spent in J Tree

glad your safe and that you went back up to finish the line


ncrockclimber


Apr 1, 2013, 12:00 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena, I am VERY glad that you are ok. The end result of this could have been a lot worse.

Over the weekend I did a route that had an 80' bolted traverse. As I sat at the belay brining across my second I got to watch the gymnastics performed by the bolt end 'biners at a few of the bolts. Although I already understood how much these things could move, I was reminded that clipping a bolt is in NO WAY a failsafe proposition. More than once I saw each of the carabiners work their way into a position that, in the event of a fall, would have probably resulted in a situation similar to what happened to you.

Thanks for posting this. It is a great reminder (or lesson for less experienced folks) that bolts can become unclipped or damage / break carabiners.

Again, glad you are OK.

edit to fix stupid typos


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on Apr 1, 2013, 12:04 PM)


jt512


Apr 1, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
The general take-home message for me is to:
-double-check your draws, to make sure they are hanging properly and not snagged or twisted
-avoid kicking or shifting your draws as you climb past them
-look down and double-check that you haven’t kicked them
-be mindful of the fact that you really aren’t out of the “danger zone” when sport climbing until you are fairly high up
-avoid falling when you have only one draw clipped.

The point highlighted in blue implies that the point highlighted in green should also apply to the second, third, and often the fourth bolt or even the fifth. However, adhering to such a rule would adversely affect one's performance as a sport climber, which suggests that we should look for other ways to prevent breaking carabiners. We should be careful about not shrugging off the orientation of the draw wrt to the direction of the climbing above it, or the orientation of the biners with respect to each other (the cis/trans debate). Perhaps, when hanging project draws, we should use locking biners on the bolt end or "clip and flip" the top biner.


(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 1, 2013, 2:13 PM)


theguy


Apr 1, 2013, 3:52 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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I'm with csproul on this one.

Nice troll that sucked in a bunch of the normally wary old-timers. Goes to show it's not about the content, it's about the author.

Happy April Fool's and kudos on the effort that went into this.


lena_chita
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Apr 1, 2013, 4:28 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:


The lack of a mark on the outside of the tip would suggest to me it may have been wrenched open in a fashion really close to your theorized pics, but with the tip not wrenching against the bolt head. The bolt has a point positioned where this would likely occur.

I didn't mean to suggest that it was the interference/lodging against the bolt head. While it is hard to see in the pictures I posted, the carabiner was not touching the bolt head, even rotated position.

I believe that once the draw was rotated, it was the rock behind it that kept it in this position. I didn't have this photo earlier today, but here is a picture of the markings on the outside of the top broken-off part of the biner.




xtrmecat wrote:
Petzl or a metalurgist can likely add much to your solving of the mystery "what done it". Is it practical, not really.

Petzl will be looking at it, my partner got a response from them in terms of where to send it, etc., but the preliminary hypothesis, based on nothing but the pictures, is something along the lines of what I had reconstructed.

xtrmecat wrote:
A little unanswered question in my mind, was the fall vertical? Or with some side or outward pull on the draw when the rope came taught? A little jump to make for a clean fall could have perhaps been part of the issues that may or may not have positioned the biner in the perfect wrong position?

I am straight in front of the bolt when I make that move, not to either side.

The fall was vertical and unintentional, there was no pushing, jumping away from the rock, etc. I simply made the move, grabbed the bad part of a hold, attempted to bump my hand to adjust the position slightly, and slipped off, falling straight down.

I have tried that move again after the fall, with a new draw, and no matter what i did, and which way I positioned the gate 9 to the left, to the right, rotated, as mal suggested, the draw was bumped when i made the move -- but it didn't get stuck on any of those attempts.

Moreover, I have been on this route before a few times, and I believe that I had bumped into that draw with my torso every time when I had made the move.

This is the only bolt on this particular route where the movement takes me directly over the draw. All other bolts are a bit to the side, away from where the moves are going, but I don't think there is a different place where a bolt could be placed in that particular spot.

xtrmecat wrote:
Interesting post, and the answer may never be understood. But I can walk away with the reaffirmation that all climbing does have unforeseen risks. When you do everything right, shit can still happen.

I agree. I think maldaly made the same point below, and curt had said it, too, in another thread at some point.

You can minimize the risks, you can try very hard not to do stupid stuff, double-check things and be safe, but you can't eliminate the risk completely, and if you think you can, you haven't been climbing enough.

Shit does indeed happen.


lena_chita
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Apr 1, 2013, 4:33 PM
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Re: [csproul] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
Would this carbiner have been broken if you had climbed the route tomorrow?

I am not quite sure what you mean by it, but the answer is, likely, no. however, I do not think the answer is NO due to anything I would have done differently, but rather due to the fact that getting the biner rotated and stuck this way is not easy. In most cases when the biner gets rotated on that bolt, it simply falls back down, even when I actively and deliberately tied to get it stuck.

The only thing that i can think of doing differently is that I probably would be using a trad draw with a sling instead of a dogbone at that particular bolt, if I climb this route again, because I see no way I can avoid bumping the draw with my torso while making the move.


lena_chita
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Apr 1, 2013, 4:35 PM
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Re: [theguy] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:
I'm with csproul on this one.

Nice troll that sucked in a bunch of the normally wary old-timers. Goes to show it's not about the content, it's about the author.

Happy April Fool's and kudos on the effort that went into this.


oh, I get it now. No, not April's fool. this happened on Friday, March 29th.

And while I appreciate a good joke, I wouldn't make it in an accident report forum.


lena_chita
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Apr 1, 2013, 4:55 PM
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Re: [jt512] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
The general take-home message for me is to:
-double-check your draws, to make sure they are hanging properly and not snagged or twisted
-avoid kicking or shifting your draws as you climb past them
-look down and double-check that you haven’t kicked them
-be mindful of the fact that you really aren’t out of the “danger zone” when sport climbing until you are fairly high up
-avoid falling when you have only one draw clipped.

The point highlighted in blue implies that the point highlighted in green should also apply to the second, third, and often the fourth bolt or even the fifth. However, adhering to such a rule would adversely affect one's performance as a sport climber, which suggests that we should look for other ways to prevent breaking carabiners. We should be careful about not shrugging off the orientation of the draw wrt to the direction of the climbing above it, or the orientation of the biners with respect to each other (the cis/trans debate). Perhaps, when hanging project draws, we should use locking biners on the bolt end or "clip and flip" the top biner.

See my response to xtremecat, regarding the position of the draw vs. direction of travel.

I was making the move straight up in front of the draws, not to the right, not to the left, with the draw being squarely in the center of my torso.

In this particular case, on this particular draw, I was able to get the draw snagged on the rock regardless of whether the gate of the draw was pointed to the right or to the left, or rotated down.

I agree that on a long-term project in such a case it would be better to hang a draw with a quicklink or a locking 'biner at the bolt end (one of the remedies suggested by Petzl, too).

However, the route I sent 2nd go of the day, after a fall like this, hardly qualifies as a long-term project. I definitely wasn't getting on it with the idea of working this route bolt-to-bolt for a month, falling repeatedly. I've been on it before, I knew the moves and what i was going to do, I intended to send it first go, I certainly wasn't planning on falling when i did fall. But even when I did fall, I certainly wasn't thinking that his was a death bolt ready to break the biner, because I have fallen there before, and nothing indicated that this was going to be any more dangerous than a small clean sport climbing fall.

Only in retrospect I now know that a draw could get snagged there. But in general, on an overhanging route where the draw is not resting against the rock, you are more concerned with the rope-end of the draw and the direction of travel than you are concerned with the bolt-end of the draw.

Moreover, I am not sure how I would be able to, in the future, to know that on any random route that I am getting on there will be a bolt where, no matter what i do, I cannot make a move without bumping into the draw with my torso.

That's why I am thinking in terms of "yes, pay attention to it as much as possible, especially when you are working a route long-term, but you may not be able to prevent it from happening 100% of the time even so"


jt512


Apr 1, 2013, 7:14 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:

[snip]

That's why I am thinking in terms of "yes, pay attention to it as much as possible, especially when you are working a route long-term, but you may not be able to prevent it from happening 100% of the time even so"

I am puzzled by the defensiveness I sense in the snipped material.

I think there are a few practical lessons we can learn from this event. We should learn to recognize situations in which our movements can affect the draw we're passing. and when we encounter those situations, we should protect against them (say, by flipping the top biner), or at least look down to make sure we haven't messed up the draw. At a minimum, we should realize that any time any part of our body hits a draw as we move past it, we should not blindly assume that the draw is just fine. When in doubt it might be better to "take" at the bolt and fix it rather than just climbing past it.


onrockandice


Apr 1, 2013, 7:45 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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Lena,

When I look at how you show the draw hanging did you fall out and pendulum left and do the usual bit of twisting in the air?

If this was the top-most biner I could almost see the rope pulling a kink through into the biner and as Lena spun the kink torqued the draw around in the spin, snapped the biner and then unkinked.

If there was slack in the line and I know Lena climbs lead strong enough to want a soft catch that there would be. It's not inconceivable that a kink or twist may have for a moment formed as the rope pulled through (am I on glue?) and then as she fell and twisted with a big ol kink in there that the torque would have snapped that draw the moment the slack took and the entire system loaded. At best that biner would have what... 9KN of breaking strength at most. I'd venture even less if it was torque-loaded.

Anyway, just the thoughts of a person sitting a long, long, long, ways away.

Good luck on solving that puzzle.


notapplicable


Apr 1, 2013, 8:33 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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Wow. Thats spooky stuff. Did you have to change pants before the redpoint burn? Unimpressed

I don't have anything to add on the prevention front, other than to mention that the biner might not have been able to bind against the rock in that way if the bolt had been a glue-in with a larger opening and rounded metal surfaces. I'm just talking out of my ass here but having seen how the top biner moves within certain glue-ins and settles back, I feel like the chances would have been less.

Edited to remove a reference to a specific bolt manufacturer. I won't associate their product with my speculations


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Apr 1, 2013, 8:36 PM)


bearbreeder


Apr 1, 2013, 10:47 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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nose hooked ....

the break is consistent with it

and its very unlikely you were exceeding the OG/xload rating of the pretzels high up


lena_chita
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Apr 2, 2013, 7:00 AM
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Re: [jt512] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:

[snip]

That's why I am thinking in terms of "yes, pay attention to it as much as possible, especially when you are working a route long-term, but you may not be able to prevent it from happening 100% of the time even so"

I am puzzled by the defensiveness I sense in the snipped material.

I think there are a few practical lessons we can learn from this event. We should learn to recognize situations in which our movements can affect the draw we're passing. and when we encounter those situations, we should protect against them (say, by flipping the top biner), or at least look down to make sure we haven't messed up the draw. At a minimum, we should realize that any time any part of our body hits a draw as we move past it, we should not blindly assume that the draw is just fine. When in doubt it might be better to "take" at the bolt and fix it rather than just climbing past it.

Yes, I think the defensiveness is probably there... not directed at your comments, but mostly because I keep looking back at it and wondering if there was a sign that I didn't recognize, something that is obvious in retrospect now, that should have made me pause and say, O.K., this is not right, I need to fix this.-- And I cannot come up with anything that should have been a red flag.

I think the take-home in GENERAL terms, on every route you climb, every time you clip the bolts and make the moves past them, you should strive to be as aware as possible of multiple things, such as

--direction of travel,
--the way the rope runs through the rope-end biner, --the way the bolt-end biner is positioned in relationship to the bolt and the rock surrounding the bolt,
- the possibility of kicking the draw and what you need to do to minimize it,

...and then double-check, once you did move past the draw, that it is still in a good position that you visualized it would be, once you moved past it.



I think all of the above are valid, and they are the reason why I posted this in the first place. You can probably add a few more...

But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again


lena_chita
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Apr 2, 2013, 7:19 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
Lena,

When I look at how you show the draw hanging did you fall out and pendulum left and do the usual bit of twisting in the air?

If this was the top-most biner I could almost see the rope pulling a kink through into the biner and as Lena spun the kink torqued the draw around in the spin, snapped the biner and then unkinked.

If there was slack in the line and I know Lena climbs lead strong enough to want a soft catch that there would be. It's not inconceivable that a kink or twist may have for a moment formed as the rope pulled through (am I on glue?) and then as she fell and twisted with a big ol kink in there that the torque would have snapped that draw the moment the slack took and the entire system loaded. At best that biner would have what... 9KN of breaking strength at most. I'd venture even less if it was torque-loaded.

Anyway, just the thoughts of a person sitting a long, long, long, ways away.

Good luck on solving that puzzle.

There was no pendulum at all. The 8th bolt, where the broken draw was, and the 9th bolt are in a straight line one above the other, the moves go straight up (with overhang) and the bolt was squarely in between my knees when I fell.

I don't think the exact details will ever be solved. The Petzl guys have responded quickly, and they will, of course, be analyzing the biner.

The likelihood that this particular thing will happen again on this particular route is really low. My friend who attempted to recreate the biner position was using both hands, and even then it took her a lot of wiggling to get the draw positioned just so, to make it be held against the hanger with the texture of the rock behind it.

The general take-home message still remains the same though...


lena_chita
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Apr 2, 2013, 7:27 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Wow. Thats spooky stuff. Did you have to change pants before the redpoint burn? Unimpressed

I don't have anything to add on the prevention front, other than to mention that the biner might not have been able to bind against the rock in that way if the bolt had been a glue-in with a larger opening and rounded metal surfaces. I'm just talking out of my ass here but having seen how the top biner moves within certain glue-ins and settles back, I feel like the chances would have been less.

Edited to remove a reference to a specific bolt manufacturer. I won't associate their product with my speculations

Yes, I think you may be right there, in regards to a glue-in. Luckily, a lot of routes that get re-bolted at the Red to replace aging bolts are now getting glue-ins, and I have no doubt that when Mercy will be rebolted, eventually, it will likely end up with glue-ins, too.

And LOL, no pants stayed clean. But I down-climbed that move once, and did a lot of shaking out and double-checking before I finally committed to it, on the redpoint.


jt512


Apr 2, 2013, 10:14 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again

You don't think that flipping the top biner over would have been effective?


lena_chita
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Apr 2, 2013, 10:57 AM
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Re: [jt512] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again

You don't think that flipping the top biner over would have been effective?

Maybe it would have. But playing around after the fact, my partner was able to get the biner stuck on that bolt/rock, regardless of how it was flipped and which way the gate was facing.


Of course, that took some trying, it wasn't NORMALLY getting stuck, regardless of which way the draw was facing. But if we tried to get it stuck, it would, with any gate orientation.

I do think that flipping the biner upside-down is a good trick to know and use, especially on routes where you are going to work the move repeatedly, are worried about this kind of possibility, but do not have a locking biner to spare for some reason.

I am not sure that I would be capable of flipping every bolt-side biner on every draw upside-down on a route that is hard for me, but within an onsight capability.

And I am still not sure that I would even reliably recognize the next bolt on which the biner should be flipped, every time I encounter such bolt.

That's where it comes back to assumption of risk, I guess.


jt512


Apr 2, 2013, 11:36 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again

You don't think that flipping the top biner over would have been effective?

Maybe it would have. But playing around after the fact, my partner was able to get the biner stuck on that bolt/rock, regardless of how it was flipped and which way the gate was facing.

I don't know why I didn't think to mention this before, since I do it pretty often, is to place two draws on the bolt with their gates opposed.


redlude97


Apr 2, 2013, 11:38 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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Do you generally keep your biners on your draws opposed? I generally clip the bolt end biner in the opposite orientation as IME it has less of a chance to interact with the bolt. In this case you said it got lodged against a rock but is it possible it wouldn't have interacted with the rock in the same way facing the other direction, or as JT512 suggested, flipping the biner?


lena_chita
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Apr 2, 2013, 1:10 PM
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Re: [jt512] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again

You don't think that flipping the top biner over would have been effective?

Maybe it would have. But playing around after the fact, my partner was able to get the biner stuck on that bolt/rock, regardless of how it was flipped and which way the gate was facing.

I don't know why I didn't think to mention this before, since I do it pretty often, is to place two draws on the bolt with their gates opposed.

Is there a reason you prefer to do that, instead of using a locking biner on the bolt?

It would depend on the bolt hangers, I guess. In some cases it seems that having two biners clipped into the same hanger makes one of the biner sort of "stand up", because there isn't quite enough room.

But still, regardless of whether you are using two draws, or locking biner, it is not something that you would do on every bolt of every route. It is just not feasible. Would be reasonable in spots where you anticipate trouble or on routes that you are working, and/or have an a priori knowledge that there is a bad spot.


shotwell


Apr 2, 2013, 2:53 PM
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Re: [jt512] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again

You don't think that flipping the top biner over would have been effective?

Maybe it would have. But playing around after the fact, my partner was able to get the biner stuck on that bolt/rock, regardless of how it was flipped and which way the gate was facing.

I don't know why I didn't think to mention this before, since I do it pretty often, is to place two draws on the bolt with their gates opposed.

Do you tend to do this in ground fall territory only? If not, what is your criteria for doubling up? Just curious as I'm sure I could learn something here.


(This post was edited by shotwell on Apr 2, 2013, 2:54 PM)


jt512


Apr 2, 2013, 3:57 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again

You don't think that flipping the top biner over would have been effective?

Maybe it would have. But playing around after the fact, my partner was able to get the biner stuck on that bolt/rock, regardless of how it was flipped and which way the gate was facing.

I don't know why I didn't think to mention this before, since I do it pretty often, is to place two draws on the bolt with their gates opposed.

Is there a reason you prefer to do that, instead of using a locking biner on the bolt?

Not really. It's mainly that I don't routinely carry a locker-equipped draw on my harness, but I almost always have an extra regular draw or two.

In reply to:
It would depend on the bolt hangers, I guess. In some cases it seems that having two biners clipped into the same hanger makes one of the biner sort of "stand up", because there isn't quite enough room.

Yeah, when the hanger doesn't permit the top biners to lay fairly flat against each other, I don't do this.

Jay


budman


Apr 2, 2013, 4:03 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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Actually saw this on Sim's facebook. You must know him or met him as he has been there for sometime. First I would be looking at the gate and is it deformed or sticky in any way or possibly was open due to contact with the rock. Open gate not so strong (all you geeks can throw in your 2 cents as to the values i just live in the real world). Broke just about where it should if the gate was open. Bad binner only analysis will possibly show. Glad your o.k. Tell that fool Sim to get his ass back to the desert as it's tower season.


jt512


Apr 2, 2013, 4:05 PM
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Re: [shotwell] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
But then I go back to that specific route, that specific move... and I can see only couple possibilities that do not involve placing a permadraw there, or screw-gate draws:
-- hang a trad draw on that bolt, instead of a regular sewn dogbone, because it would be less likely that nudging the rope-end biner (unavoidable in the move I do) will dislodge the bolt-side biner
-- don't climb that route again

You don't think that flipping the top biner over would have been effective?

Maybe it would have. But playing around after the fact, my partner was able to get the biner stuck on that bolt/rock, regardless of how it was flipped and which way the gate was facing.

I don't know why I didn't think to mention this before, since I do it pretty often, is to place two draws on the bolt with their gates opposed.

Do you tend to do this in ground fall territory only? If not, what is your criteria for doubling up? Just curious as I'm sure I could learn something here.

No deep insights, I'm afraid. I'll double the draw on a critical bolt, such as when the failure of a carabiner would result in a long fall to the ground, and I'm unsure whether I'm going to pull off the moves before the next bolt. I'll also double a draw when, no matter how I orient the draw, it looks like a rock feature could open the gate of either the top or bottom biner.


lena_chita
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Apr 3, 2013, 5:15 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
Do you generally keep your biners on your draws opposed? I generally clip the bolt end biner in the opposite orientation as IME it has less of a chance to interact with the bolt. In this case you said it got lodged against a rock but is it possible it wouldn't have interacted with the rock in the same way facing the other direction, or as JT512 suggested, flipping the biner?

No, I have my draws with the gates facing in the same direction. But my partner, who hung the draws, has them set up facing opposite. Also, I usually clip the bolt with the carabiner spine to the bolt, because I do believe that it is somewhat less likely to become unclipped in the fall that way.

At the time when I was climbing the route on first go, before the breaking biner, I was not particularly concerned about the orientation of the biner on the bolt. The rope-end biner was positioned in a way I liked it to be, because the bolt below that one is slightly to the right, and the bolt above it is straight up.

After the fact, assuming that our re-creation of how the biner broke is correct, it looks like hanging the draw with both gates on top and bottom facing left would have been better, because even if the draw got stuck in the other scenario, the same forces would have been pushing the gate closed, instead of pulling it open.

However, that this is over-analyzing that may not really give that much insight for the future... Mercy being a very popular classic route, I am sure that there have been draws hung on that bolt with gates opposed, and gates facing the same, and with the biners on the bolt side going in either direction, many many times, with people falling on them all the time, with no ill effects.

A biner broke-- once. In this particular orientation. Now this orientation is suspect. But you don't really know that many thousands of falls later this wouldn't happen again, with a different orientation.

I know people have very strong opinions on why the gates on the draws should be facing same direction, or opposed, and I have come on the same-direction side. BUT, not strongly. I do not believe that same-orientation is fundamentally safer, or the opposite-orientation is fundamentally better. I have seen scenarios where one looks better, or the other looks better, because there are many possible combinations of hanger orientation, rock features, and direction of travel.

In a situation where the bolt hanger is oriented the same way as in the first picture, with all the bolts being slightly to the left of where you are climbing, for example, it is a no-brainer that hanging draws with gates facing in the same direction on top and bottom, and having them all face left would be optimal. But routes are rarely so accommodating.


redlude97


Apr 3, 2013, 10:16 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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didn't mean to imply that was the cause. I'm with you on that the orientation of the bolt end biner isn't THAT important. Generally I give priority to rope end and the bolt end goes whichever direction corresponds with the rope end, and if I feel there is a possible interaction and I have a chance to flip it then I do. 99% of the time that is ok, and I think the only real takeaway from this incident is to never forget that shit happens and sport climbing isn't always as safe as many of us seem to think it is.


jt512


Apr 3, 2013, 10:21 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
I have my draws with the gates facing in the same direction. But my partner, who hung the draws, has them set up facing opposite. Also, I usually clip the bolt with the carabiner spine to the bolt, because I do believe that it is somewhat less likely to become unclipped in the fall that way.

I've been arguing the following for more than a decade, but until now never had a data point. (Now I have one data point, so I must have been right all along!)

Draws should be set up with both biners facing the same direction (ie, in the cis orientation), and placed so that the gates face away from the direction the route takes above the bolt. It is virtually impossible for the gate of a non-wire-gate biner to get caught on the bolt head/nut; this can only happen to wire gates. Therefore, don't put wire-gate biners on the bolt ends of your draws, and disregard whether the gate of the top biner is facing the bolt or not. If a feature of the rock interferes with the gate of the bolt-end biner, flip it over.

These rules work for almost every placement. For the exceptions, place two draws, oriented opposite to each other, on the bolt, or use a draw equipped with a locking biner.

The reason to prefer the cis orientation is that if the climb goes to one side or the other above the bolt, you want the rope to run over the spine of the bottom biner, rather than the gate, to minimize the chance of the rope unclipping; and, if the rope (or you) pulls the draw up as you climb past it, and rotates the top biner, you would prefer the spine of the biner, rather than the gate, to be pulled into the bolt hanger to minimize the chance of the draw unclipping. You can only satisfy both criteria if your draws are set up in the cis orientation.


lena_chita
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Apr 4, 2013, 10:20 AM
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Re: [jt512] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
I have my draws with the gates facing in the same direction. But my partner, who hung the draws, has them set up facing opposite. Also, I usually clip the bolt with the carabiner spine to the bolt, because I do believe that it is somewhat less likely to become unclipped in the fall that way.

I've been arguing the following for more than a decade, but until now never had a data point. (Now I have one data point, so I must have been right all along!)

Draws should be set up with both biners facing the same direction (ie, in the cis orientation), and placed so that the gates face away from the direction the route takes above the bolt. It is virtually impossible for the gate of a non-wire-gate biner to get caught on the bolt head/nut; this can only happen to wire gates. Therefore, don't put wire-gate biners on the bolt ends of your draws, and disregard whether the gate of the top biner is facing the bolt or not. If a feature of the rock interferes with the gate of the bolt-end biner, flip it over.

These rules work for almost every placement. For the exceptions, place two draws, oriented opposite to each other, on the bolt, or use a draw equipped with a locking biner.

The reason to prefer the cis orientation is that if the climb goes to one side or the other above the bolt, you want the rope to run over the spine of the bottom biner, rather than the gate, to minimize the chance of the rope unclipping; and, if the rope (or you) pulls the draw up as you climb past it, and rotates the top biner, you would prefer the spine of the biner, rather than the gate, to be pulled into the bolt hanger to minimize the chance of the draw unclipping. You can only satisfy both criteria if your draws are set up in the cis orientation.

Good argument for cis-orientation draws, jay. I think I am now more strongly in favor of cis-draws. it remains to be seen if I can convince my friend to change her practice.


Partner xtrmecat


Apr 4, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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  This incident had enough potential to change the habits of the partner I climb with most.

To add context, C. climbs several letter grades harder than I, so when we are climbing together we most likely find ourselves on routes into his free solo grades. He protects many climbs with the first two bolts clipped, and when appropriate, (lack of ledge or ground fall potential, crux sections) he skips the next and clips roughly every other or third bolt there after.

Last night he was approaching groundfall distance very high up a route, and should his top biner broke, would have difinitely been an auger in situation. I casually mentioned this thread and analysis and in his humorous way dismissed it as in he is really immortal, and he just humors me with pro to keep me from freaking.

I did however notice, the thought put into the next routes he led, and a change of habit on his part. This failure served a purpose beyond even what I thought it would.

Well done.

Burly Bob


Now back to draw gate orientation!


shockabuku


Apr 4, 2013, 5:06 PM
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If you mentioned it previously I missed it; I understand what "cis" means but why do you use that ?word?


redlude97


Apr 4, 2013, 5:07 PM
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fucking chemistry geeks Tongue


jt512


Apr 4, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Broken carabiner in a lead fall. [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
If you mentioned it previously I missed it; I understand what "cis" means but why do you use that ?word?

For the same reason they use it in chemistry and gender studies: it's succinct and unambiguous.


majid_sabet


Apr 5, 2013, 10:49 AM
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important part of any report should include

Name of product

in this case petzl
model /type ?
Rating ?
Age ,years in service ?
type of usage (sport/trade) ?

A good picture of another one next to broken one


shotwell


Apr 5, 2013, 11:51 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
important part of any report should include

Name of product

in this case petzl
model /type ?
Rating ?
Age ,years in service ?
type of usage (sport/trade) ?

A good picture of another one next to broken one

All those questions are easily answered except the age and years in service, though Lena said they were several years old and lightly used. The Spirits are the most popular draws on the market and Mercy the Huff pops up as a sport route on the very first google search. This was a great report because it provided the details that an actual sport climber would care about.


jktinst


May 31, 2013, 8:02 AM
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Broken, cross-loaded biners are front and centre these days between this thread and that other one following soon after

http://ttp:/...orum_view_collapsed;

Since my first reading of this thread, I’ve been thinking on and off that there ought to be a fairly straightforward tech fix for this problem. Product developers have found different ways to prevent cross-loading of belay biners and I can’t see why some of these solutions could not find their way into regular biners to be used on the pro/bolt-side of QDs. Obviously not the big plastic clip solution of the DMM Belay Master but an additional wire gate inside the biner, like the Metolius Gatekeeper, would be fine with me. Sure, the biner would be a little bit larger, heavier, more expensive and less versatile than a regular biner but I would be keen to spring for and carry 4 or 5 of these to use on the first 2-3 pros/bolts where a cross-loaded broken, biner could mean decking (or a bad FF2) and to intersperse at increasing intervals higher up the pitch, as a just-in-case.

Then I remembered about the DMM Mamba captive-sling biner and was surprised that it didn’t get mentioned anywhere in these threads. It certainly eliminates the risk of cross-loading. DMM does not even provide a cross-loading rating for it. With its notched nose, its trans configuration when sold as a 2-Mamba QD and the fact that you need to send it in to have the captive sling professionally replaced every few years, it would not necessarily be my first choice compared to a notchless or hooded wire gate biner with an additional sling-capture wire gate. Unfortunately those don’t exist just yet. Does anyone know if (and where) one may buy units comprised of a single straight-gate Mamba with its sling (to clip the pro/bolt) to which one could fit a String and a notchless bent gate or other non-Mamba biner to complete the QD ?


Syd


Jun 3, 2013, 6:01 AM
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It's hard to tell exactly from the photo but that logo is "Conformité Européenne" is it ?
On zooming, it looks like more the Chinese "CE" with no space between the C and the E, but impossible to be sure. It does look different to biners with the European logo.

http://www.climbing.co.za/2013/05/lab-test-of-carabiners-used-at-belay-stations/


amarius


Jun 3, 2013, 9:24 AM
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The OP mentions that QD was Petzl, she even writes that owner contacted Petzl regarding the failure.


lena_chita
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Jun 3, 2013, 10:11 AM
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Yes, it was a PETZL draw.

And in response to jktinst, this was NOT cross-loading. This type of breakage is consistent with a hooked-nose mode of failure, NOT cross-loading. I believe there was a link earlier in this thread to different modes of failure.

here it is again:

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...osehooked-carabiners


Syd


Jun 3, 2013, 4:20 PM
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Yes it was Petzl but is the logo "CE" or "C E" , as described in this link http://www.climbing.co.za/2013/05/lab-test-of-carabiners-used-at-belay-stations/

From your photo it looks like "CE", which is very surprising if it's Petzl.


redlude97


Jun 3, 2013, 4:30 PM
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Syd wrote:
Yes it was Petzl but is the logo "CE" or "C E" , as described in this link http://www.climbing.co.za/2013/05/lab-test-of-carabiners-used-at-belay-stations/

From your photo it looks like "CE", which is very surprising if it's Petzl.
Its a biner, there is only so much room. The CE mark is the exact same one on all spirits


jktinst


Jun 3, 2013, 6:12 PM
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My apologies. Various things had me confused in your original posts and I ended up lumping the whole thing with other cross-load breaks without thinking. I read the thread as it developed over the 4-5 days and the things that threw me off were:

- The hooked-nosed break on a notchless, correctly closed, solid-gate biner (later explained)
- The second "breaking sequence" photo suggesting a jam between hanger and bolt head followed by your reply that the jam was in fact between the hanger and the rock.
- The initial post explaining that on that draw, it was possible to reproduce the hanger-to-rock jam from just about any clip configuration, up/down, right/left (subsequent posts stated more unequivocally that you actually went back to this specific bolt with your partner and that she was able, with some fiddling, to reproduce this kind of jam).

I should have re-read the thread all the way through before posting. It certainly is clearer that way. I still can’t picture that hanger-to-rock jam looking at the photo of the intact draw in situ but take your word that it can (and most likely did) happen.

Clearly, no amount of cross-loading prevention would have helped in this case. Thanks for setting me straight.


Syd


Jun 3, 2013, 6:44 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
Syd wrote:
Yes it was Petzl but is the logo "CE" or "C E" , as described in this link http://www.climbing.co.za/2013/05/lab-test-of-carabiners-used-at-belay-stations/

From your photo it looks like "CE", which is very surprising if it's Petzl.
Its a biner, there is only so much room. The CE mark is the exact same one on all spirits

Have you read the link ?
There are two quite distinctly different trademarks that look almost identical. There are no shortcuts to the way trademarks are displayed.

It is possible that Petzl has its biners made in China, like many other manufacturers, if they have the "CE" rather than "C E" logo. I don't know ... the first step is to confirm the marking on the biner.


majid_sabet


Jun 3, 2013, 7:07 PM
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one solution is to use different type of bolt that does not allow biner to get cut between hanger and head of bolt.

I am sure they are 3/8 and 10mm with proper grade for climbing use.




redlude97


Jun 3, 2013, 8:36 PM
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Syd wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Syd wrote:
Yes it was Petzl but is the logo "CE" or "C E" , as described in this link http://www.climbing.co.za/2013/05/lab-test-of-carabiners-used-at-belay-stations/

From your photo it looks like "CE", which is very surprising if it's Petzl.
Its a biner, there is only so much room. The CE mark is the exact same one on all spirits

Have you read the link ?
There are two quite distinctly different trademarks that look almost identical. There are no shortcuts to the way trademarks are displayed.

It is possible that Petzl has its biners made in China, like many other manufacturers, if they have the "CE" rather than "C E" logo. I don't know ... the first step is to confirm the marking on the biner.
Except spirits are made in the US or France and CE0082 denotes the CE directive for PPE.


Syd


Jun 3, 2013, 11:08 PM
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Petzl from China:

http://www.karstworlds.com/2011/02/attention-petzl-warns-for-fake-chinese.html


lena_chita
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Jun 4, 2013, 3:57 AM
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Syd wrote:
Petzl from China:

http://www.karstworlds.com/2011/02/attention-petzl-warns-for-fake-chinese.html

None of the fake Petzl items in your link are spirits. It is possible that the fake versions exist, but in this case-- very unlikely.

I cannot tell you right now where the gear was purchased from, but knowing my friend, I am very sure it was from a reputable source here in the states.

Besides, don't you think that when PETZL people got the photos, and then the biner, they wouldn't tell right away if this was the fake one?

At the moment there is no need for a defective 'biner explanation. The 'biner was loaded in a way it was not meant to be loaded. It doesn't have much strength when loaded in this way, so it broke.


Syd


Jun 4, 2013, 5:40 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
Syd wrote:
Petzl from China:

http://www.karstworlds.com/2011/02/attention-petzl-warns-for-fake-chinese.html

None of the fake Petzl items in your link are spirits. It is possible that the fake versions exist, but in this case-- very unlikely.

I cannot tell you right now where the gear was purchased from, but knowing my friend, I am very sure it was from a reputable source here in the states.

Besides, don't you think that when PETZL people got the photos, and then the biner, they wouldn't tell right away if this was the fake one?

At the moment there is no need for a defective 'biner explanation. The 'biner was loaded in a way it was not meant to be loaded. It doesn't have much strength when loaded in this way, so it broke.


Lena, Once again, one simple question ... IS IT "CE" or "C E" !!! ???


redlude97


Jun 4, 2013, 7:45 AM
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Syd wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Syd wrote:
Petzl from China:

http://www.karstworlds.com/2011/02/attention-petzl-warns-for-fake-chinese.html

None of the fake Petzl items in your link are spirits. It is possible that the fake versions exist, but in this case-- very unlikely.

I cannot tell you right now where the gear was purchased from, but knowing my friend, I am very sure it was from a reputable source here in the states.

Besides, don't you think that when PETZL people got the photos, and then the biner, they wouldn't tell right away if this was the fake one?

At the moment there is no need for a defective 'biner explanation. The 'biner was loaded in a way it was not meant to be loaded. It doesn't have much strength when loaded in this way, so it broke.


Lena, Once again, one simple question ... IS IT "CE" or "C E" !!! ???
Once again, real petzl spirits don't have a space, so why would fake ones do? Are you really trying to say that chinese companies would go through all the trouble of making a fake biner and be ok with stamping petzl on them but would go out of their way to change the CE symbol?


JimTitt


Jun 4, 2013, 8:31 AM
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Syd wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Syd wrote:
Petzl from China:

http://www.karstworlds.com/2011/02/attention-petzl-warns-for-fake-chinese.html

None of the fake Petzl items in your link are spirits. It is possible that the fake versions exist, but in this case-- very unlikely.

I cannot tell you right now where the gear was purchased from, but knowing my friend, I am very sure it was from a reputable source here in the states.

Besides, don't you think that when PETZL people got the photos, and then the biner, they wouldn't tell right away if this was the fake one?

At the moment there is no need for a defective 'biner explanation. The 'biner was loaded in a way it was not meant to be loaded. It doesn't have much strength when loaded in this way, so it broke.


Lena, Once again, one simple question ... IS IT "CE" or "C E" !!! ???

I wouldn´t get too wound up over the issue, the marks on plenty of other products don´t conform to the logo requirements from the EU either. And since forging either a conforming on non-conforming mark is equally as easy.....


lena_chita
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Jun 4, 2013, 12:38 PM
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Syd wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Syd wrote:
Petzl from China:

http://www.karstworlds.com/2011/02/attention-petzl-warns-for-fake-chinese.html

None of the fake Petzl items in your link are spirits. It is possible that the fake versions exist, but in this case-- very unlikely.

I cannot tell you right now where the gear was purchased from, but knowing my friend, I am very sure it was from a reputable source here in the states.

Besides, don't you think that when PETZL people got the photos, and then the biner, they wouldn't tell right away if this was the fake one?

At the moment there is no need for a defective 'biner explanation. The 'biner was loaded in a way it was not meant to be loaded. It doesn't have much strength when loaded in this way, so it broke.


Lena, Once again, one simple question ... IS IT "CE" or "C E" !!! ???

Syd, I do not have the 'biner anymore, so I can look at the same photo as you see.

BUT...

PETZL is not calling this biner counterfeit, there haven't been counterfeit spirits reported, as far as I know, and the gear was bought from a reputable source.

So, while your concern is theoretically valid, it is probably misplaced in this case.


Syd


Jun 4, 2013, 4:50 PM
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Thanks Lena. If you zoom in on your photo to look at the CE logo, you can see it is quite different to others that are CE certified such as:
http://static.shop033.com/resources/4E/5966/resized/38/15016504_200x200.jpg

CE certification is compulsory certification to enter the European Union.
http://www.anodizings.com/about-us/certifications/

I assume that either:
a) Petzl made an error in their marking or
b) If it is not counterfeit, Petzl had the biner made in China and the label really is "China Export". If it was made in China, quality could be suspect.

... anyone's guess ...


gosharks


Jun 4, 2013, 5:36 PM
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Syd wrote:
Thanks Lena. If you zoom in on your photo to look at the CE logo, you can see it is quite different to others that are CE certified such as:
http://static.shop033.com/resources/4E/5966/resized/38/15016504_200x200.jpg

CE certification is compulsory certification to enter the European Union.
http://www.anodizings.com/about-us/certifications/

I assume that either:
a) Petzl made an error in their marking or
b) If it is not counterfeit, Petzl had the biner made in China and the label really is "China Export". If it was made in China, quality could be suspect.

... anyone's guess ...
My Spirits from 2006 are marked "CE0197". No space.


JimTitt


Jun 4, 2013, 11:02 PM
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Like I said, there are plentyof products out there where the CE symbol is not as proscribed, the current directive dates from 2008 and before the rules were different, some countries also used the EG mark (the German language equivelent) but this was fairly rare. My Salewa karabiners are also non-conforming.

The EU think the "China Export" smbol is an urban myth, particularly prevalent in Italy for some reason and investigated the matter a few years ago.

Answer given by Mr Verheugen on behalf of the Commission:-

The Commission is aware that there exists the misconception attributing CE marking the meaning ‘Chinese export’. The Commission is not aware of the existence of a ‘China export mark’ but considers that the mark the Honourable Member refers to constitute the CE marking as foreseen in the European legislation without, however, respecting the dimensions and proportions prescribed therein.

The Commission is aware that CE marking, like any other mark, is misused, e.g. CE marking is affixed to products which do not fulfil the requirements and conditions for its affixing or it is affixed to products for which the affixing is not foreseen. There are also cases where, whilst the product is in compliance with the applicable requirements the CE marking itself does not respect the formal requirements, namely the form of the CE marking or the dimensions and proportions prescribed in the legislation......


(This post was edited by JimTitt on Jun 5, 2013, 1:18 AM)


ClimbClimb


Jun 14, 2013, 6:35 PM
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jt512 wrote:
No deep insights, I'm afraid. I'll double the draw on a critical bolt, such as when the failure of a carabiner would result in a long fall to the ground, and I'm unsure whether I'm going to pull off the moves before the next bolt. I'll also double a draw when, no matter how I orient the draw, it looks like a rock feature could open the gate of either the top or bottom biner.

Happy to hear you say that. I do that sometimes, and get funny looks -- in part because I don't have very good explanations. Possible I do it when it's unnecessary, but at least it's nice I'm not alone.


jt512


Jun 14, 2013, 7:14 PM
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ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
No deep insights, I'm afraid. I'll double the draw on a critical bolt, such as when the failure of a carabiner would result in a long fall to the ground, and I'm unsure whether I'm going to pull off the moves before the next bolt. I'll also double a draw when, no matter how I orient the draw, it looks like a rock feature could open the gate of either the top or bottom biner.

Happy to hear you say that. I do that sometimes, and get funny looks -- in part because I don't have very good explanations. Possible I do it when it's unnecessary, but at least it's nice I'm not alone.

I get some funny looks, too, or someone will ask me why I'm doing it. It strikes me as completely bizarre that climbers will blindly trust a single non-locking biner in a critical situation to the point that they are completely dumbfounded when they see someone doubling one up.


dindolino32


Jul 6, 2013, 5:21 PM
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I read somewhere to not have the gates facing opposite directions. Couldn't find it, but I think this may have enabled the biner to be loaded closer to the nose due to the obtuse angle compared to the long axis of the biner. With a fall, the steel bolt could bite into the softer aluminum biner. This would allow the biner to be loaded on the nose. I believe that seems more likely than the "twisting/kicked" theory.
Either way, I always have my draws facing the same direction.
Glad you are alright though! Must have been scary!


distantThunder


Jul 22, 2013, 7:20 PM
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yo.

first - very glad that you are unhurt and able to tell your story here.

next - I'm an "old fart". I did a LOT of climbing many years ago. Nowadays I just climb easier routes and totally for fun. I'm also an engineer by profession ... analysis of stress & strain, fractures, and material behavior is what I do for a living. but I'm not here to give you, or Petzl, a hard time.

looking quickly at how you matched up the failure - looks like you are on the right track.

a). How did the gate on the biner pop open? Pretty clearly - that's not a good thing. I guess somehow the rope must have snagged it open. That's very uncommon. but if it does happen and the biner flips (like you showed), then definitely the strength is much lower than normal ratings.

b) Besides your story, there's another incident in a recent Rock and Ice where two biners failed. The failure location is very similar to yours. But those climbers had used an "extended draw" technique where the webbing was looped multiple times on the biner. You didn't do that.

c) In the old days - I honestly cannot think of any time that I heard of a biner breaking in the way that you showed. it just flat out NEVER happened. really. in those days the biners tended to be more rounded and a little narrower than today. and I'm guessing the metal alloy was more ductile as well. who knows - maybe the springs that held the gates were also stiffer. but for whatever reason we just never saw incidents like the one you experienced. this tells me that something needs to be investigated and changed - the modern carabiners are moving towards designs that make them more vulnerable to failure. it is possible that because sport climbing was very young (or nonexistent) when I was a young guy that the biners were loaded differently ... maybe. but we still saw no biner failures like that during lead falls.

two things were almost complete certainties in the good old days - your biners would never break and neither would your 11 mm rope (so long as it didn't go over a sharp edge). The times they are a changin' - I guess. :-)

talk to me if you want.
and let us know what Petzl says.

good luck,
dT
[distantThunder]


(This post was edited by distantThunder on Jul 22, 2013, 7:37 PM)


bigjonnyc


Jul 23, 2013, 10:51 AM
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distantThunder wrote:
...many years ago....

c) In the old days - I honestly cannot think of any time that I heard of a biner breaking in the way that you showed. it just flat out NEVER happened.

Many years ago there were way fewer climbers, and way fewer huge sport climbing destinations such as the Red. As such there were less bolts for people to fall on. I also imagine the mentality back then was much more along the lines of avoiding falls at all costs, unlike today where we fall over and over working routes at or above our ability. Lastly, I'm sure similar failures occurred back then, though you may have forgotten the internet didn't exist at the time, making it much less likely that you'd have heard about it. Just my $0.02.


Partner robdotcalm


Jul 23, 2013, 1:01 PM
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Yes, things did happen in the old days but with fewer climbers and no internet, there was less communication. The only time you heard about something was when it happened to a well-known climber.

Incidents from the past: Some 30 + years ago, a friend of mine took an ordinary fall onto an oval carabiner. It broke. In 1984, I was leading on a new 11 mm rope, which had never taken a fall or been rappelled on. I climbed a crack system which led to a 15 foot slab traverse into a chimney. When I got to the chimney, the rope didn’t pull easily so I tugged it. About 10 feet from my tie-in, it was cut half way through! The rope was sent back to the manufacturer. After thoroughly examining the rope, they could find nothing wrong with it (and gave me a new rope).

Rob.calm

P.S. A year later, I reclimbed the route (Switch Cracks in Lumpy Ridge) and could find nothing on it that would cut a rope. Two summers ago, I climbed the route again and saw a razor sharp quartzite crystal sticking out of the rock near the traverse. That might have been the cause of the cut.


distantThunder


Jul 23, 2013, 8:39 PM
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rob and bigjonny - yeah. you make a good point. in the old days I got a lot of my information thru the grapevine. it was common for climbers at that time to pass on descriptions of mishaps and gear problems by word of mouth. so I really only heard about stuff that happened on the West Coast, and primarily in California. I don't recall any stories about broken biners back then - but by no means did I hear everything.

lena - I realized I said one thing wrong to you. I don't think the rope was directly responsible for flipping open the gate of the top biner. that seems very unlikely when i think about it. i think it's more likely that there was some sort of "dynamic event" where the quick draw was turned around, so the lower biner was raised upwards (also flipping the top biner). The problem is that our understanding of these fast-motion incidents is poor - it would take careful research to capture them on video. i'm not sure that anyone has gone that deeply into the subject.

i do hope that companies like Petzl will continue to work on these sorts of concerns. since there are now (at least) 3 broken biners out there (not sure they are all Petzl biners), it points to a need to improve carabiner designs some more. hopefully the company will not be scared by legal implications - esp. since no-one has been hurt in the most recent incidents. it's better to work constructively, do more research, and come up with a better biner design.

BTW, I checked back in Rock & Ice. The other broken biners came from Mammut. So this is not a specific issue tied to one company's production of hardware. It looks more like a question of how they are used, and maybe how much repetitive loading biners get in sport climbing. The incident with the Mammut biners happened on the Leaning Tower in Yosemite. Two biners broke in a row, causing the leader to plunge 50-60 feet if I remember right - but he was alright. Just surprised and shaken up. The broken biners in that situation were attached to the webbing using multiple loops (extended draw). Biner manufacturers need to do some extra research, I'd say :-)

cheers,
dT


(This post was edited by distantThunder on Jul 24, 2013, 7:04 AM)


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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