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sandstone


Apr 8, 2013, 7:26 PM
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Re: [curt] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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Curt remind me to never let you cause an epic that could have been avoided. On some climbs speed = safety.


rsmillbern


Apr 9, 2013, 12:38 AM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
Looks like fun route, by why are there so many loose rocks getting knocked off by experienced climbers on the most popular mutipitch route (heavily travelled) in the Canadian Rockies?

Try out some moderate routes in the German/Austrian Alps. I have climbed a couple pitches that seemed to be made entirely of loose rocks.

I use an autoblock (Alpine Up and the ATC Guide) however, I do think it is good to use these as if they were not autoblocking and to know how to use them correctly (setup, lower under tension, etc). As with any tool, use it correctly and it is fine, if not...


moose_droppings


Apr 9, 2013, 9:41 AM
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Re: [rsmillbern] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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rsmillbern wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
the most popular mutipitch route in the Canadian Rockies?

Try out some moderate routes in the German/Austrian Alps. I have climbed a couple pitches that seemed to be made entirely of loose rocks.

I use an autoblock (Alpine Up and the ATC Guide) however, I do think it is good to use these as if they were not autoblocking and to know how to use them correctly (setup, lower under tension, etc). As with any tool, use it correctly and it is fine, if not...

Yes, most of us can find a route with a lot of loose rock on it.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Apr 9, 2013, 9:43 AM)


bearbreeder


Apr 9, 2013, 9:53 AM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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like i said ... go do it ... the climbing is easy

the NE face of haling is likely the most popular long route since its right outside canmore

Nowadays the route has a lot of fixed gear but it remains a serious undertaking with
loose rock at stances, dubious pitons and a propensity for attracting afternoon thunderstorms.
There have been numerous epics and even fatalities on this climb and it deserves respect from
inexperienced parties.


http://www.banffrock.ca/...namans/Ha%20Ling.pdf

Rock fall is still the
appropriate hazard
on the route and must be respected whether below or above
other parties, which is common.


http://dowclimbing.com/HaLing.html


moose_droppings


Apr 9, 2013, 10:40 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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I agree, I haven't been there, but your statement now makes it seem more reasonable since your now calling it
In reply to:
the NE face of haling is likely the most popular long route since its right outside canmore
as compared to
In reply to:
the most popular multipitch in the Canadian Rockies

Thanks for clearing that up.


bearbreeder


Apr 9, 2013, 11:11 AM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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im pretty sure i said initially


heres the most popular easy long multiroute in the canadian rockies .

i personally dont consider anything where you dont do 10+ full pitches "long" ... basically run up the side of a mountain or other such ... for easy/moderates anyways


edge


Apr 9, 2013, 7:28 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
like i said ... go do it ... the climbing is easy

the NE face of haling is likely the most popular long route since its right outside canmore

Nowadays the route has a lot of fixed gear but it remains a serious undertaking with
loose rock at stances, dubious pitons and a propensity for attracting afternoon thunderstorms.
There have been numerous epics and even fatalities on this climb and it deserves respect from
inexperienced parties.


http://www.banffrock.ca/...namans/Ha%20Ling.pdf

Rock fall is still the
appropriate hazard
on the route and must be respected whether below or above
other parties, which is common.


http://dowclimbing.com/HaLing.html




Partner rgold


Apr 10, 2013, 9:01 AM
Post #33 of 84 (2102 views)
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Re: [bearbreeder] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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An interesting addendum to the discussion about auto or assisted locking devices for belaying the leader when there is rockfall potential is in the latest ANAM http://www.rockandice.com/...p-books/aac-report-1 page 11.

In this accident, the leader dislodged a block that shattered and a piece hit the belayer, causing them to lose control of the belay. The accident report notes that an autolocking device could have prevented the accident.

This was not a high rockfall area, and the block was one that other climbers had yarded on in the past.


bearbreeder


Apr 10, 2013, 9:31 AM
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Re: [rgold] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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there was an accident posted here not to long ago where a belayer got seriously hurt by rockfall on a "classic" route ... without an assisted locking device, IMO its questionable if he could have held the climber with an ATC with a broken arm, ruptured spleen, and a "destroyed" knee.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2567562

even in squamish which is known for bomber rock ... rockfall can easily become an issue even if yr just cragging at the base of the grand ... climbers above you knock stuff off all the time from up high ... where a warning of "ROCK" doesnt reach you ...

and we wont even talk about early season freeze/thaw cycles ... even at sport crags rocks come off at the start of every season

rockfall is one of the thing thats very hard to control ...


curt


Apr 10, 2013, 9:47 AM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
Curt remind me to never let you cause an epic that could have been avoided. On some climbs speed = safety.

Thanks. This is what RC.n00b is famous for--coming up with a remote and unlikely scenario where the best practice seems wrong. Eating/drinking/texting or any other form of multi-tasking while belaying will lead to far more epics than just taking a little more time to finish a route.

Curt


sandstone


Apr 10, 2013, 12:52 PM
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Re: [curt] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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Curt, given the rather large amount of literature that documents the long and rich heritage of alpine climbing, surely you don't actually believe that people doing such routes is a "remote and unlikely scenario", do you?

Jay made a blanket statement that there's no good reason to use autoblock mode. Within the context of short sunny rock climbs he is right on the mark. My point was that is not the only context within which people climb. On long alpine routes, especially with a team of three, autoblock belaying is the right technique. It allows the leader to belay up two seconds simultaneously, which saves a TON of time. While he is doing that he can go hands free to hydrate and snack, to be ready to blast up the next pitch the moment his partners arrive at the belay. He is not putting them at risk by doing that, he is reducing risk.

The time saved at the end of the day can very well mean the difference in having enough light to locate the correct descent gully or ridge (not always easy in high alpine terrain). It can also mean the difference between making it down or having to be exposed to frostbite risk during an icy bivouac. Add to that the reduced time the team is exposed to rock and ice fall, and it's an absolute no brainer conclusion that speed = safety on long alpine routes.

Curt you piped in with.......well nothing, just some smart ass blather that could only serve the purpose of putting someone else down to puff up your own sense of self importance. Now that truly is what RC.com is famous for.


redlude97


Apr 10, 2013, 3:07 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
Curt, given the rather large amount of literature that documents the long and rich heritage of alpine climbing, surely you don't actually believe that people doing such routes is a "remote and unlikely scenario", do you?

Jay made a blanket statement that there's no good reason to use autoblock mode. Within the context of short sunny rock climbs he is right on the mark. My point was that is not the only context within which people climb. On long alpine routes, especially with a team of three, autoblock belaying is the right technique. It allows the leader to belay up two seconds simultaneously, which saves a TON of time. While he is doing that he can go hands free to hydrate and snack, to be ready to blast up the next pitch the moment his partners arrive at the belay. He is not putting them at risk by doing that, he is reducing risk.

The time saved at the end of the day can very well mean the difference in having enough light to locate the correct descent gully or ridge (not always easy in high alpine terrain). It can also mean the difference between making it down or having to be exposed to frostbite risk during an icy bivouac. Add to that the reduced time the team is exposed to rock and ice fall, and it's an absolute no brainer conclusion that speed = safety on long alpine routes.

Curt you piped in with.......well nothing, just some smart ass blather that could only serve the purpose of putting someone else down to puff up your own sense of self importance. Now that truly is what RC.com is famous for.
Actually he is. At least according to BD. Guide mode can't lock both strands simultaneously in all situations. There is still a risk there. I put this in the same basket as hands free gri-gri belaying. Relying on the device locking is rolling the dice, however small the chance of this occurring is.


curt


Apr 10, 2013, 3:11 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
Curt, given the rather large amount of literature that documents the long and rich heritage of alpine climbing, surely you don't actually believe that people doing such routes is a "remote and unlikely scenario", do you?

That's not what I said, but reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte. I have belayed two people at once before--many times. The problem I have is with your original assertion it is safe to do this (belay) while eating, drinking, etc. I thought I was absolutely clear about my point.

sandstone wrote:
Curt you piped in with.......well nothing, just some smart ass blather that could only serve the purpose of putting someone else down to puff up your own sense of self importance. Now that truly is what RC.com is famous for.

Again, your fundamental lack of comprehension does not make me a smart ass. And (again) I would never let anyone belay me who feels that belaying doesn't demand their full attention.

Curt


moose_droppings


Apr 10, 2013, 3:49 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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In reply to:
And (again) I would never let anyone belay me who feels that belaying doesn't demand their full attention.

Curt knocks it out of the park folks.

Go ahead and pitch him another one sandstone, he's fun to watch at bat.


sandstone


Apr 10, 2013, 3:53 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
...Guide mode can't lock both strands simultaneously in all situations. There is still a risk there....

It is just one of the many risks (including weather, fatigue, rock fall, ice fall, nightfall, gear/food weight, avalanche, crevasse, etc.) that you may have to factor into just one alpine climb.

If I can save a significant amount of time by using autoblock (which is certainly true for a team of three), and by doing so reduce risk in several of the other categories mentioned above, am I at a higher or lower overall risk?


sandstone


Apr 10, 2013, 3:58 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
...Go ahead and pitch him another one sandstone, he's fun to watch at bat.

You think so Moose? I wasn't impressed when he went so quickly to the tired old "...reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte..." thing. It's good fun just the same.


redlude97


Apr 10, 2013, 4:06 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
...Guide mode can't lock both strands simultaneously in all situations. There is still a risk there....

It is just one of the many risks (including weather, fatigue, rock fall, ice fall, nightfall, gear/food weight, avalanche, crevasse, etc.) that you may have to factor into just one alpine climb.

If I can save a significant amount of time by using autoblock (which is certainly true for a team of three), and by doing so reduce risk in several of the other categories mentioned above, am I at a higher or lower overall risk?
Again, you seem to be getting lost in the argument. We aren't arguing against autoblock use. I use it fairly regularly as well. But I always keep my hands on the brake strands. Going hands free is the only unnecessary risk IMO, and I can usually manage to refuel with a single hand or a combination of hands with the rope


bearbreeder


Apr 10, 2013, 4:17 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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http://www.mountainproject.com/...c-guide/106838345__3

from eli helmuth ... a well respected and very experienced guide ...


The engineers at BD told me that they'd call it 'auto-lock' not 'auto-block' except for 'the lawyers' as it's possible to screw any of these things up and blame it on the manufacturer.

It's pretty much impossible to belay two people simultaneously (which is what these devices are designed to do) without taking a brake hand off one strand, at least if the seconds are moving at any speed. I know there's no rush to climb fast back east but we have bigger rocks and mountain weather out here and don't give me that Mt. Wash bs about bad weather:)

Certainly back-up knots in the brake hand are never a bad idea but impractical in the typical 2 follower situation. If I've got just one follower, of course I'll keep my brake hand on mostly but certainly it's not an issue if I let go to eat a chip, drink h2o, etc.

After dozens and dozens of AMGA programs that I've been involved wtih where we belay with this method on 5-25 pitch routes with two followers - everyone seems happy with the results and no close calls yet that I'm aware of other than the wrong loop being clipped into the belay anchor - yikes!


again the RCers are out going off about things professionals and other people who climb ALOT do every day

from last week ... its a wonder they both didnt die off the deadly autoblock Wink





(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Apr 10, 2013, 4:26 PM)


curt


Apr 10, 2013, 4:34 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
...again the RCers are out going off about things professionals and other people who climb ALOT do every day...

Of course, as "rgold" has pointed out numerous times, you can do something potentially unsafe for a very long period of time time and get away with it--so long as that practice is never severely tested.

Curt


bearbreeder


Apr 10, 2013, 4:37 PM
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Re: [curt] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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curt wrote:

Of course, as "rgold" has pointed out numerous times, you can do something potentially unsafe for a very long period of time time and get away with it--so long as that practice is never severely tested.

Curt

so is mr helmuth "unsafe" and never tests his systems?

how about the hundreds of not more of other guides who use the autoblock to bring up 2 followers?

you should write to the AMGA/ACMG/IFMGA/etc, rather than rant on RC ... since this is the lives of innocent clients were talking about here

hmmmmm


sandstone


Apr 10, 2013, 4:54 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
...We aren't arguing against autoblock use....

My original post was in response to a blanket statement that did just that. I didn't disagree with what Jay said, I just added that context is important because there is a context where autoblock is very valuable and very effective.

In reply to:
...you seem to be getting lost in the argument...

The point of participating in a discussion forum would be what then? :-)

In reply to:
..But I always keep my hands on the brake strands.

Of course I do the same every moment I can. But if I'm on a big (for me) route, pushing a time/weather window, not carrying bivvy gear, in winter conditions, then I am going to be cutting out as much time as I can out of every pitch. Sometimes that means going hands free on an autoblock to get something else done. That's one of the reasons I'm using autoblock after all, so I have that option. When my seconds get to the belay (and they know I am using autoblock, and going hands free), I am ready to grab the pro and go.

It's a judgement call, balanced against the very real risks of taking too much time in terrain/weather that can easily kill you.


redlude97


Apr 10, 2013, 5:00 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
...We aren't arguing against autoblock use....

My original post was in response to a blanket statement that did just that. I didn't disagree with what Jay said, I just added that context is important because there is a context where autoblock is very valuable and very effective.
Curt's response clearly wasn't addressing that portion of your statement, go back and look at what he bolded


curt


Apr 10, 2013, 5:03 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
you should write to the AMGA/ACMG/IFMGA/etc, rather than rant on RC ... since this is the lives of innocent clients were talking about here

1) And do you really believe that any of those organizations would openly advocate belaying with an ATC auto-block without paying full attention to the belaying? I seriously doubt it.

2) Other than identifying eating, drinking, or otherwise multi-tasking while belaying as potentially unsafe, I really don't care that much. All I know is I won't do it--and neither will anyone I climb with.

Curt


bearbreeder


Apr 10, 2013, 5:05 PM
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Re: [curt] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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curt wrote:

1) And do you really believe that any of those organizations would openly advocate belaying with an ATC auto-block without paying full attention to the belaying? I seriously doubt it.

2) Other than identifying eating, drinking, or otherwise multi-tasking while belaying as potentially unsafe, I really don't care that much. All I know is I won't do it--and neither will anyone I climb with.

Curt

if a guide is unsafe or following unsafe practices with clients, they can take action ... if its a REAL safety issue i suggest contacting them, again as its real lives at risk

as to belaying .. how often do you bring up 2 seconds simultaneously off the autoblock ... perhaps you can share your technique


curt


Apr 10, 2013, 5:06 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
sandstone wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
...We aren't arguing against autoblock use....

My original post was in response to a blanket statement that did just that. I didn't disagree with what Jay said, I just added that context is important because there is a context where autoblock is very valuable and very effective.
Curt's response clearly wasn't addressing that portion of your statement, go back and look at what he bolded

He ought to know that by know, since I've said it twice. He's now simply being willfully obtuse.

Curt

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