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sandstone


Apr 10, 2013, 7:15 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
...Curt's response clearly wasn't addressing that portion of your statement, go back and look at what he bolded

Oh I know exactly what he bolded. He stopped bolding right before the part where I pointed out the possible effects of taking too much time on an alpine route. Read the next paragraph past what Curt bolded. I understand his problem comprehending what I said -- when you have put yourself up on a pedestal that tall, the clouds make it hard to read fine details.

Curt is just being myopic, he's all caught up in the fact that there is a risk to multitasking, and ignoring the larger picture. An alpine climbing team (try to keep up here Curt, alpine climbing is the context of everything I've said in this thread) is simultaneously being exposed to several risks that are far greater in magnitude than the risk of momentarily taking your hands off an autoblock. Reducing your exposure time to those larger risks has to be among your prime concerns.

If autoblock failures were common, Curt would have more of an argument, but it just ain't so. Accidents/deaths related to rockfall, icefall, nightfall, hypothermia, etc., are not rare at all -- the literature is full of them. The literature is not full of autoblock failures, despite a great volume of use all over the world.

Am I willing to inflict the small risk of hands-off autoblocking on myself, and my two best friends, in exchange for even a few minutes less exposure to rock fall, icefall, frostbite, etc?

Hell yes I am. I will make that choice every time. Anyone who wouldn't do the same for me doesn't truly understand the context.


notapplicable


Apr 10, 2013, 8:28 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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You keep bringing up the example of a three person team but if time really is a big safety consideration, you probably shouldn't be climbing in a team of three anyway. You want real time savings, dump a person.

As to the question of acceptable levels of risks, I agree with you. As long as every member of the team agrees to the game that is being played, there is nothing wrong with taking calculated risks. For example, I would rather solo than simulclimb but other folks play that game all the time. That is their call. Same with going hands free with an autoblock. I don't do it and I don't want my belayers doing it but its fine if every member if the team consents.

And thats all Curt said. HE does not want HIS belayers playing that game. Thats HIS call. Just like it is YOUR call to do the opposite.

Thats the beauty of climbing. We get to make up and play by our own rules and we are entirely responsible for the consequences.


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Apr 10, 2013, 8:31 PM)


redlude97


Apr 10, 2013, 9:37 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
...Curt's response clearly wasn't addressing that portion of your statement, go back and look at what he bolded

Oh I know exactly what he bolded. He stopped bolding right before the part where I pointed out the possible effects of taking too much time on an alpine route. Read the next paragraph past what Curt bolded. I understand his problem comprehending what I said -- when you have put yourself up on a pedestal that tall, the clouds make it hard to read fine details.

Curt is just being myopic, he's all caught up in the fact that there is a risk to multitasking, and ignoring the larger picture. An alpine climbing team (try to keep up here Curt, alpine climbing is the context of everything I've said in this thread) is simultaneously being exposed to several risks that are far greater in magnitude than the risk of momentarily taking your hands off an autoblock. Reducing your exposure time to those larger risks has to be among your prime concerns.

If autoblock failures were common, Curt would have more of an argument, but it just ain't so. Accidents/deaths related to rockfall, icefall, nightfall, hypothermia, etc., are not rare at all -- the literature is full of them. The literature is not full of autoblock failures, despite a great volume of use all over the world.

Am I willing to inflict the small risk of hands-off autoblocking on myself, and my two best friends, in exchange for even a few minutes less exposure to rock fall, icefall, frostbite, etc?

Hell yes I am. I will make that choice every time. Anyone who wouldn't do the same for me doesn't truly understand the context.
explain again how rock fall, icefall or frostbite are related to hands free belaying again?


Partner rgold


Apr 10, 2013, 10:00 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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I think you can make a case, as Bearbreeder has, for the autoblock upper belay in situations where rockfall is a palpable risk. Outside those situations, the only "advantage" of the autoblock is the perceived ability to take your hands off the brake strands and multitask. (Well, that, the possibility of lounging more comfortably next to the anchor, and a slightly less involved belay escape procedure in the exceptionally rare case when one is needed.)

In particular, there is absolutely no speed advantage to autoblock belaying of two seconds over the same system off the harness or redirected through the anchor, and the latter two versions allow better control of the situation if one of the climbers needs to step down while the other is moving up.

You only get time savings if the belayer does things that aren't belaying, things that would otherwise have to wait until the seconds are up at the stance and off belay. Such opportunities do present themselves on longer climbs, and as is clear from the preceding discussion, the participants have to come to an understanding of which risks to prioritize and which to ignore.

One of the risks of multitask belaying is that it is more likely that slack will accumulate, and so more likely that seconds could be taking "leader" falls, with all that implies in terms of loads to the device and anchor. If you somehow manage to get loads up to 5 kN or so, which seems pretty unlikely, you can expect failures in the functioning of the devices.

With two seconds, it is important to have the same rope paths for both climbers, i.e. don't treat the two ropes as a half-rope system and clip them alternately to horizontally separated protection points, at least not for the last protection points of the pitch for each rope. Doing this can result in diverging loads at the belay plate, which will typically disable "automatic" braking for one of the strands.

Possible disabling or weakening of autolocking may also occur if the pitch ends with a protected horizontal traverse to the belay ledge, so that the load on the device is horizontal rather than vertical.


sandstone


Apr 11, 2013, 9:50 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
explain again how rock fall, icefall or frostbite are related to hands free belaying again?

Sure.

In some contexts, like rock climbing on relatively short routes on long summer days, time/speed is not one of your paramount concerns. Efficiency is great, but inefficiency is unlikely to cause you great bodily harm.

In the context of a long alpine climb, especially on short winter days, time/speed is one of your paramount concerns. The longer you are on a pitch, the longer you are exposed to the rockfall, icefall, and avalanche dangers that pitch may hold.

If you run out of daylight, and can't find your descent route, or go down the wrong way in the dark, you may find yourself on avalanche prone slopes, or be forced into a bivvy in winter conditions. That can cause you to lose toes, or kill you.

So a big part of the alpine game is speed. Anything you can do to save time reduces your exposure to your greatest risks. Accepting a risk that has proven to be very small, in exchange for reducing multiple larger risks, is a very good call.

Let's say that by multitasking (going hands free to hydrate, snack, adjust layers, etc.) while belaying up my seconds I can shave off 30 minutes of time during the day. Can that 30 minutes make the difference in whether or not we have enough light left to find our "safe" descent route? Absolutely it can.

On one climb I topped out in failing light, with heavy snow falling from an intensifying storm (despite a forecast and earlier observations that said otherwise). Going back down the way we came up was not an option due to the snow loading on the slopes above that funneled into our route. I yelled down to just leave the pro and get up the pitch as fast as possible. The few extra minutes of light was far more valuable than a few hundred bucks worth of gear. It was the right call, we found our "safe" descent route just as the light failed, and made it down through the storm without injury.

My original post was in response to Jay's statement that there was no good reason to belay in autoblock mode. I agree with him 100% for some contexts, but added that there exists a context where his statement does not hold true.

Curt piped in with his usual snarky snippets, and tried to slam me by pulling part of what I wrote out of its context. But he was wrong in doing so, I clearly stated my context in my original post. Or maybe Curt just didn't grasp what winter alpine climbing means, and the complex nature of risk management in that context -- despite his quickness to judge those who do.


sandstone


Apr 11, 2013, 10:27 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
You keep bringing up the example of a three person team but if time really is a big safety consideration, you probably shouldn't be climbing in a team of three anyway. You want real time savings, dump a person.

The validity of that depends entirely on the nature of the third man you are "dumping".

In reply to:
...And thats all Curt said. HE does not want HIS belayers playing that game. Thats HIS call. Just like it is YOUR call to do the opposite.

Thats the beauty of climbing. We get to make up and play by our own rules and we are entirely responsible for the consequences.

Absolutely. Curt gets to play his game his way, and I get to play mine my way -- on climbs, and on the written page.

Curt is free to snip parts of what I write, and criticise them out of their stated context -- just as I am free to point out the fallacy of him doing so.


petsfed


Apr 11, 2013, 10:49 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
You keep bringing up the example of a three person team but if time really is a big safety consideration, you probably shouldn't be climbing in a team of three anyway. You want real time savings, dump a person.

This statement here invalidates anything else you have to say on the subject.

3-person "block" leading has been a staple of hard alpine climbing for so long that I have a decade-old book that supports this very practice, written by the foremost practitioner of the art during the 90s. Try again.


curt


Apr 11, 2013, 1:09 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
Curt is free to snip parts of what I write, and criticise them out of their stated context -- just as I am free to point out the fallacy of him doing so.

You're a real crack-up...or insane. I have never taken you out of context even once, while "redlude97," "notapplicable" and I have all pointed out where you have taken my comments in this thread out of context. Talk about psychological projection...

Of course, since you're attempting to defend a basically indefensible practice, that really is about all you've got.

Curt


sandstone


Apr 12, 2013, 9:13 AM
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Re: [curt] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
You're a real crack-up...or insane.

Well thank you, and you are correct, respectively. I enjoy the sound of laughter, so I try to crack up the people who surround me at every opportunity. As for the sanity comment, no climber can truthfully defend his activities as being sane.

In reply to:
I have never taken you out of context even once, while "redlude97," "notapplicable" and I have all pointed out where you have taken my comments in this thread out of context. Talk about psychological projection...

I very carefully stated the context of my comments, because in other contexts they don't apply.

You projected the dogma from what you are familiar with into the context of my comments, but you don't/won't grasp that the change in context necessitates re-examining the dogma.

But that's OK, not everyone has experience in other disciplines, and it can be hard to grasp how something so familiar can be different in another context.

In reply to:
Of course, since you're attempting to defend a basically indefensible practice, that really is about all you've got.

Carefully read through my last response to redlune97. If you can be honest with yourself, and get past your prideful need to defend the position you have taken, you can clearly see that I have defended the practice of hands off autoblocking (within the stated context). I even clearly show how that seemingly risky practice can be put to good use to reduce the overall risk for the team. But you're not able to see that are you? Your pride and self inflated sense of worth won't let you.

Curt, you have a propensity, apparently even a need, to assume superiority (look back at your "rc.noob" comment directed at me). This time you were wrong. You injected yourself into a sub-discussion about alpine climbing, and ever since you've been talking out of your ass about something you either don't have experience with, or a clear comprehension of, to someone who has both.

I'm going to change my recommendation. Don't read back through the previous posts. Instead spend the time talking to a friend or counselor to explore why it is you spend so much time online sniping at others, putting them down to make yourself feel superior. That is not healthy.


curt


Apr 12, 2013, 9:59 AM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
Carefully read through my last response to redlune97. If you can be honest with yourself, and get past your prideful need to defend the position you have taken, you can clearly see that I have defended the practice of hands off autoblocking (within the stated context). I even clearly show how that seemingly risky practice can be put to good use to reduce the overall risk for the team...

You have done nothing of the kind. You have merely stated your opinion and represented it as "clearly showing" something. I fully understand that you are talking about the context of alpine climbing, but that is irrelevant to the objection I have to the way you belay. I simply don't buy your arguments. There is no time (unless perhaps you become unconscious) that it is acceptable to not be paying attention 100% of the time when you're belaying. In any event (and contrary to what you have assumed) I didn't really intend to turn this into a pissing contest.

The intent of my initial comment in this thread was merely to convey that I would not belay anyone in the manner you describe--nor would I ever let anyone belay me that way. I should have probably just left it at that.

Curt


Shroom


Apr 12, 2013, 11:10 AM
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Re: [curt] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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As usual for RC, you have both taken stances so far opposite each other it's like watching Congress. The answer lies in the middle.

Sandstone, there is no reason to take your hands fully off the rope. You can easily dig in a pack with your index finger and thumb while holding the brake side across your palm with the other fingers engaged, particularly if you pack correctly and have essentials in an outside pocket or on top.

Curt, what alpine routes/experience do you have specifically?


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: [Shroom] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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Shroom wrote:
As usual for RC, you have both taken stances so far opposite each other it's like watching Congress. The answer lies in the middle.

Sandstone, there is no reason to take your hands fully off the rope. You can easily dig in a pack with your index finger and thumb while holding the brake side across your palm with the other fingers engaged, particularly if you pack correctly and have essentials in an outside pocket or on top.

Curt, what alpine routes/experience do you have specifically?


actually id like to know how you specifically manage the ropes in autoblocks with 2 seconds at speed without taking the hands off with an ATC guide or reverso

i can just do it holding it lightly with an alpine smart or a gigi because they pull through so easily ...

with a guide or reverso, you generally need a bit of OOOMPH to pull the rope through on easier ground at speed ... ive yet to see anyone do it without taking their hand off the line for a split second when managing 2 followers


csproul


Apr 12, 2013, 12:58 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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With a pair of skinny ropes, they pull VERY easily through my Reverso.I can pull one through while sliding my hand along the other rope. My hand need not leave both ropes, at least with the set-up I have used. With fatter ropes or a non-round biner they are much harder to pull through and much harder to manage both ropes while maintaining a hand on both ropes. I think the ease with which this is done is dependent on the ropes/biner/device being used.

But I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong since I'm just another RC'er, right?


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 1:08 PM
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Re: [csproul] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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you are just another RCer Tongue

so how do you do it with fatter, stiffer ropes then Wink


csproul


Apr 12, 2013, 1:14 PM
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In general...I don't. If I am in a party of 3, I make sure to take the right pair of ropes.

Having tried it with fatter ropes and it was a big PITA, I try to make sure I don't have to do it with two fat ropes. It's been so long since I have used two fat ropes that I honestly don't remember how difficult it was to keep a hand on both ropes. It was probably pretty difficult since I remember it being hard enough to just pull the ropes through at all.


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 1:19 PM
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Re: [csproul] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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the guides i see usually use thicker ropes .. and they take their hands off ... as i said earlier if its a real safety issue we should all start reporting em ...

there are plenty of times where i run up an easy climb with 2 others at the end of a day/on a rest day ... and i left my "ideal" doubles back at home ... we just go do it anyways

of course thats one of the reasons i have the smart .... the autoblock is buttah smoooth Wink


sandstone


Apr 12, 2013, 3:10 PM
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Re: [Shroom] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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Shroom wrote:
...Sandstone, there is no reason to take your hands fully off the rope. You can easily dig in a pack with your index finger and thumb while holding the brake side across your palm with the other fingers engaged, particularly if you pack correctly and have essentials in an outside pocket or on top.

Shroom, if you can do all of that with winter gloves on, and don & doff a belay parka, without ever taking your hands off the rope, then you are far more coordinated than me.


sandstone


Apr 12, 2013, 3:32 PM
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Re: [curt] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
... I simply don't buy your arguments...

Yet you offer nothing in response other than insults, bad assumptions, and worn out cliches.

I had hopes of a spirited and substantial debate, Moose had high hopes for you too. I don't know what he's feeling, but my disappointment has to be something like what my dog feels when he gets done with one of those plush toy squirrels I buy for him.

The thing puts up a pretty good bluff on the outside, but once you get past that there's only fluff.


redlude97


Apr 12, 2013, 3:42 PM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
explain again how rock fall, icefall or frostbite are related to hands free belaying again?

Sure.

In some contexts, like rock climbing on relatively short routes on long summer days, time/speed is not one of your paramount concerns. Efficiency is great, but inefficiency is unlikely to cause you great bodily harm.

In the context of a long alpine climb, especially on short winter days, time/speed is one of your paramount concerns. The longer you are on a pitch, the longer you are exposed to the rockfall, icefall, and avalanche dangers that pitch may hold.

If you run out of daylight, and can't find your descent route, or go down the wrong way in the dark, you may find yourself on avalanche prone slopes, or be forced into a bivvy in winter conditions. That can cause you to lose toes, or kill you.

So a big part of the alpine game is speed. Anything you can do to save time reduces your exposure to your greatest risks. Accepting a risk that has proven to be very small, in exchange for reducing multiple larger risks, is a very good call.

Let's say that by multitasking (going hands free to hydrate, snack, adjust layers, etc.) while belaying up my seconds I can shave off 30 minutes of time during the day. Can that 30 minutes make the difference in whether or not we have enough light left to find our "safe" descent route? Absolutely it can.

On one climb I topped out in failing light, with heavy snow falling from an intensifying storm (despite a forecast and earlier observations that said otherwise). Going back down the way we came up was not an option due to the snow loading on the slopes above that funneled into our route. I yelled down to just leave the pro and get up the pitch as fast as possible. The few extra minutes of light was far more valuable than a few hundred bucks worth of gear. It was the right call, we found our "safe" descent route just as the light failed, and made it down through the storm without injury.

My original post was in response to Jay's statement that there was no good reason to belay in autoblock mode. I agree with him 100% for some contexts, but added that there exists a context where his statement does not hold true.

Curt piped in with his usual snarky snippets, and tried to slam me by pulling part of what I wrote out of its context. But he was wrong in doing so, I clearly stated my context in my original post. Or maybe Curt just didn't grasp what winter alpine climbing means, and the complex nature of risk management in that context -- despite his quickness to judge those who do.
Its one thing to say that that in certain situations you do the best you can to choose which risks to take and weigh and balance those decisions, it is another to say that taking your hands of the brake strands is not putting your seconds in danger, which you stated. Like I said previously, it may be a small risk, but it is one that is known to potentially occur, and shouldn't be swept under the rug.


(This post was edited by redlude97 on Apr 12, 2013, 3:42 PM)


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2013, 5:10 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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well lets quantify this ...

how many known and documented accidents have been the result of a properly setup autoblock device slipping disastrously ...

not the lowering cases where the some newb tries to lower, or the one case where the climber didnt know what they were doing and clipped the wire/biner and released it because they didnt know how to use it ...

im talking about properly setup autoblock slipping in a real life documented serious accidents ...

not just RC heresay


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Apr 12, 2013, 5:10 PM)


notapplicable


Apr 12, 2013, 5:43 PM
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petsfed wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
You keep bringing up the example of a three person team but if time really is a big safety consideration, you probably shouldn't be climbing in a team of three anyway. You want real time savings, dump a person.

This statement here invalidates anything else you have to say on the subject.

3-person "block" leading has been a staple of hard alpine climbing for so long that I have a decade-old book that supports this very practice, written by the foremost practitioner of the art during the 90s. Try again.

I will take your word on that one. I have no alpine experience. While I've never seen a team of three move faster than a team of two on the rock, there are probably other considerations in the alpine environment that make it advantageous.

I was mostly responding to address question of acceptable levels of risk and informed consent within the team. I should have confined my comments to that.

Out of curiosity though, is one of the advantages of that style an overall increase speed?


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Apr 12, 2013, 5:50 PM)


petsfed


Apr 13, 2013, 3:57 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
petsfed wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
You keep bringing up the example of a three person team but if time really is a big safety consideration, you probably shouldn't be climbing in a team of three anyway. You want real time savings, dump a person.

This statement here invalidates anything else you have to say on the subject.

3-person "block" leading has been a staple of hard alpine climbing for so long that I have a decade-old book that supports this very practice, written by the foremost practitioner of the art during the 90s. Try again.

I will take your word on that one. I have no alpine experience. While I've never seen a team of three move faster than a team of two on the rock, there are probably other considerations in the alpine environment that make it advantageous.

I was mostly responding to address question of acceptable levels of risk and informed consent within the team. I should have confined my comments to that.

Out of curiosity though, is one of the advantages of that style an overall increase speed?

Given that the two seconds move simultaneously, during the actual climbing the speed is the same. There's also a spare person to manage rope while the leader climbs, and somebody can always be doing the things that the belayer can't while the leader climbs (e.g. prepping lunch, redistributing food/bivy gear, taking pictures, etc), plus all there's the added safety of an extra person (and pack full of gear) if things go bad. The only place you don't move as fast is on the rappels, since you have to send three down instead of two.

Its absolutely a balancing act of risk vs. reward, and I've never been on a route, or in a situation, where a team of three wouldn't slow the entire team down, but that doesn't invalidate the utility of the technique in certain situations.

I've used the auto-block method before, and it is handy to get one hand free when you're belaying up a second, since there's no special body position needed to belay off the anchor with one. However, you can't go entirely hands free for long, and you need a certain belay scenario/rope diameter to make it work, plus the added complexity of lowering, so for the most part, I don't use the autoblock option that often.


curt


Apr 15, 2013, 11:09 AM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
curt wrote:
... I simply don't buy your arguments...

Yet you offer nothing in response other than insults, bad assumptions, and worn out cliches.

I haven't insulted you yet, but since that seems to be your preferred method of debate, I may need to modify my position on that.

sandstone wrote:
I had hopes of a spirited and substantial debate, Moose had high hopes for you too. I don't know what he's feeling, but my disappointment has to be something like what my dog feels when he gets done with one of those plush toy squirrels I buy for him.

You're not interested in a debate at all. You simply want people to agree that your multi-tasking and distracted method of belaying is just fine. I happen to believe it is not.

sandstone wrote:
The thing puts up a pretty good bluff on the outside, but once you get past that there's only fluff.

The only argument you have put forth thus far for inattentive belaying is greater speed. And, you make it sound as though it's a regular occurrence for you to need the additional few minutes that you may save by inattentive belaying in order to save yourself from frostbite, rockfall, unplanned bivvying, potential death in the mountains, etc. Perhaps you just get in over your head a little too often? That would be consistent with your arrogant attitude.

In reality, if you are setting out to do a route where time may be that critical, others have pointed out to you that there are probably better ways to save time than to multi-task while belaying--such as climbing as a two man party. So, the time argument is pretty much moot as far as I'm concerned.

You've stubbornly insisted on defending inattentive/distracted/multi-tasking (i.e. poor) belaying, and this has not been a debate since that point. It's not as though I'm going to change your mind--at this point I'm merely pointing out to others that your arguments for cutting corners while belaying are BS.

Curt


(This post was edited by curt on Apr 15, 2013, 5:09 PM)


sandstone


Apr 19, 2013, 8:20 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
Its one thing to say that that in certain situations you do the best you can to choose which risks to take and weigh and balance those decisions, it is another to say that taking your hands of the brake strands is not putting your seconds in danger, which you stated.

You seem to be taking sentences of what I have written and criticising them in isolation, ignoring their carefully stated context. You are free to do so, but I am free to keep pointing you back to the context of those sentences.

What I'm saying doesn't make sense in other contexts. I don't think autoblocking should be used at all in most types of climbing.

The context of my comments is a very narrow slice within the wide array of types of climbing that exist. If you don't understand that context, and have a desire to, I recommend that you at least read some of the classic books on the subject (including the one petsfed alluded to).

In reply to:
Like I said previously, it may be a small risk, but it is one that is known to potentially occur, and shouldn't be swept under the rug.

Nothing is being swept under the rug. My original point was that on long alpine climbs, especially on short winter days, speed=safety. Literally. Assumptions you have made in other contexts may need to be re-evaluated.

If my team accepts the minimal risk of hands free autoblocking to reduce the time exposed to multiple dangers which are far greater in scale, then we have made a very good trade. The overall risk to the team goes down.


redlude97


Apr 19, 2013, 9:15 AM
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Re: [sandstone] Black Diamond ATC issue [In reply to]
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sandstone wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Its one thing to say that that in certain situations you do the best you can to choose which risks to take and weigh and balance those decisions, it is another to say that taking your hands of the brake strands is not putting your seconds in danger, which you stated.

You seem to be taking sentences of what I have written and criticising them in isolation, ignoring their carefully stated context. You are free to do so, but I am free to keep pointing you back to the context of those sentences.

What I'm saying doesn't make sense in other contexts. I don't think autoblocking should be used at all in most types of climbing.

The context of my comments is a very narrow slice within the wide array of types of climbing that exist. If you don't understand that context, and have a desire to, I recommend that you at least read some of the classic books on the subject (including the one petsfed alluded to).

In reply to:
Like I said previously, it may be a small risk, but it is one that is known to potentially occur, and shouldn't be swept under the rug.

Nothing is being swept under the rug. My original point was that on long alpine climbs, especially on short winter days, speed=safety. Literally. Assumptions you have made in other contexts may need to be re-evaluated.

If my team accepts the minimal risk of hands free autoblocking to reduce the time exposed to multiple dangers which are far greater in scale, then we have made a very good trade. The overall risk to the team goes down.
I never took your statements out of context. Your original statement said you weren't putting your partners at risk by going hands free. Had you stated from the beginning that you were trading one risk for another that you deemed higher, then I would have never commented. I think we are on the same page here, just that you mispoke your true intent in your first post.

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