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What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this?
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Poll: What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this?
I'll tell you about anything. Who cares if you die? 9 / 27%
I don't give advice to dangerous idiots. 9 / 27%
I don't give advice to nOObs. 0 / 0%
I don't give advice over the internet. 1 / 3%
I don't give advice to anyone, ever. 0 / 0%
Pancakes 14 / 42%
33 total votes
 

milesenoell


May 17, 2013, 1:57 PM
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What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this?
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There seems to be much ado about how content on this site is showing the signs of decline, but what I am curious about is about what kind of content is even appropriate for a site like this.

A recent thread requesting feedback and information on TR solo fizzled as no one really wants to go on record giving advice that could be misapplied and lead to serious injury or death. As commendable as it may be that we try to keep foolish folks from getting the wrong idea, that attitude seems to squelch the legitimate exchange of information and ideas that would breathe some life back into the site.

Is encouraging a climber of unknown skill or judgement to teach themselves skills like building anchors, placing pro, and roped solo --lead or TR-- too dangerous? Where do you draw the line?


(This post was edited by milesenoell on May 17, 2013, 1:59 PM)


notapplicable


May 17, 2013, 3:57 PM
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I've learned a bunch of stuff on RC.com over the years. Most of it "tricks of the trade" type stuff that augmented my existing knowledge and practices but I've found it to be a valuable resource nonetheless.

I'll share what I know, or at least THINK I know, if someone asks. It's what this place is for. That and trolling and posting pictures of boobies. You know, now that I think of it, there hasn't been a boobies thread in like two years. Jesus. This place is in decline!


majid_sabet


May 17, 2013, 5:41 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
There seems to be much ado about how content on this site is showing the signs of decline, but what I am curious about is about what kind of content is even appropriate for a site like this.

A recent thread requesting feedback and information on TR solo fizzled as no one really wants to go on record giving advice that could be misapplied and lead to serious injury or death. As commendable as it may be that we try to keep foolish folks from getting the wrong idea, that attitude seems to squelch the legitimate exchange of information and ideas that would breathe some life back into the site.

Is encouraging a climber of unknown skill or judgement to teach themselves skills like building anchors, placing pro, and roped solo --lead or TR-- too dangerous? Where do you draw the line?

Are you a law student ?


milesenoell


May 18, 2013, 8:50 AM
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I'm not interested in the legal aspects at all. What I am is someone who taught themselves to build anchors, place pro, and roped solo. I made use of books, the net and advice from people I didn't know all that well. Nowhere have I found as much antipathy toward that approach as I seem to find here at this site. Cascade Climbers, ST and MP all seem to be significantly freer with advice, and I'm curious if it is simply because they have more knowledge to bestow, or if the folks on here are intentionally holding back out of some altruistic attempt to protect the nOObs from themselves.


(This post was edited by milesenoell on May 18, 2013, 9:00 AM)


qwert


May 18, 2013, 10:26 AM
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Well, I do give advice, but only if I have the feeling the person on the opposite end of the intertubes can understand it.

If someone needs one single aspect of something explained, or is curious to add some stuff to some solid foundations, i will happily give advice.

However if I have the feeling that someone thinks climbing is something that can be learned by asking three questions on the internet, then i will just voice the usual "U R gunna dye!11!", "do a proper course!", "Hire a guide!", "Find someone to show you in real live!".

True - those inane answers are getting more and more frequent, but so do the inane questions by people who do not seem to understand the fundamental principles of gravity…

Vicious circle? Maybe, but I'd rather not encourage some idiot to kill himself or herself. Also, that might endanger other - innocent - people, or even cause access issues.

qwert


milesenoell


May 18, 2013, 11:28 AM
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I appreciate your candor qwert, and I generally use the same approach when giving advice. It's the seeking advice part that has made me feel like information that would be helpful is harder to get than it needs to be. In general I view it as laziness dressed up as altruism, but that doesn't jibe with my strong impression of climbers as generally helpful and generous folks. I figured I'd ask where people stand.


(This post was edited by milesenoell on May 18, 2013, 11:29 AM)


marc801


May 18, 2013, 12:50 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
I appreciate your candor qwert, and I generally use the same approach when giving advice. It's the seeking advice part that has made me feel like information that would be helpful is harder to get than it needs to be. In general I view it as laziness dressed up as altruism, but that doesn't jibe with my strong impression of climbers as generally helpful and generous folks. I figured I'd ask where people stand.
I don't think it's laziness at all, nor do I think people here aren't willing to be helpful or aren't willing to answer questions. Where I do find a stark difference is in the type of question, much as qwert alluded to.

There's this:
I have a question about X, In this thread I looked up it suggests <something> but John Long's book says <something slightly different>. So in <some situation> I thought <doing such and such> was appropriate. But I think I'm missing <some finer point regarding the issue> and was wondering if someone more experienced can give <appropriate advice>.

But then there's this:
Hey bros this rock climbing is really cool and I want to do a lot more what kind of gear do i need to do this rad sport?

What you seem to be reacting to are the answers to the second kind of question. Why should we invest the time and effort to form a well though out answer when the person posting couldn't be bothered to do the same with the original? One, where armed with only that answer and minimal to non-existent other knowledge, could easily get the poster, his/her partner(s), or their rescuer(s) hurt or killed.

In short, if someone is a good apprentice and does the initial research and learning, they'll probably get helpful responses. If someone is a lazy moron that is unable to come up with anything more than a vague, general question and wants everything just handed to them with no effort on their part, maybe not so much.


majid_sabet


May 18, 2013, 6:06 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
I'm not interested in the legal aspects at all. What I am is someone who taught themselves to build anchors, place pro, and roped solo. I made use of books, the net and advice from people I didn't know all that well. Nowhere have I found as much antipathy toward that approach as I seem to find here at this site. Cascade Climbers, ST and MP all seem to be significantly freer with advice, and I'm curious if it is simply because they have more knowledge to bestow, or if the folks on here are intentionally holding back out of some altruistic attempt to protect the nOObs from themselves.


There are knowledgeable people here who keep things low key because the site itself does not promote nor likes smart ones. Here the #s of visitors per day is the goal and even when we have a topic, what make it hotter is the number of visitors joining the topic or discussion and not the topic content itself.

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

Is that true here ?






OHH they are coming after me


bearbreeder


May 18, 2013, 9:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue


majid_sabet


May 19, 2013, 12:51 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before


Ruff_Dog


May 19, 2013, 7:02 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before

Woah. You're not a climber? This poses two questions: With all due respect, what brings you here? And secondly, you gave me advice for rappeling in my thread, and while I know that climbers aren't the sole rappellers of the world, where did you learn that about the 8? You had said you used it.


(This post was edited by Ruff_Dog on May 19, 2013, 7:02 AM)


milesenoell


May 19, 2013, 8:17 AM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before

Woah. You're not a climber? This poses two questions: With all due respect, what brings you here? And secondly, you gave me advice for rappeling in my thread, and while I know that climbers aren't the sole rappellers of the world, where did you learn that about the 8? You had said you used it.

Whatever else Majid may be, he is a legit source of knowledge on SAR stuff, and those guys know how to lower things.


Ruff_Dog


May 19, 2013, 8:29 AM
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milesenoell wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before

Woah. You're not a climber? This poses two questions: With all due respect, what brings you here? And secondly, you gave me advice for rappeling in my thread, and while I know that climbers aren't the sole rappellers of the world, where did you learn that about the 8? You had said you used it.

Whatever else Majid may be, he is a legit source of knowledge on SAR stuff, and those guys know how to lower things.


Alright, alright. Thanks for clearing that up because Majid gave me solid advice on a Rescue 8 and seemed to know his stuff, and I foolishly assumed he was a climber. Good to know, though! Thank you both.


majid_sabet


May 19, 2013, 9:01 AM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before

Woah. You're not a climber? This poses two questions: With all due respect, what brings you here? And secondly, you gave me advice for rappeling in my thread, and while I know that climbers aren't the sole rappellers of the world, where did you learn that about the 8? You had said you used it.

Whatever else Majid may be, he is a legit source of knowledge on SAR stuff, and those guys know how to lower things.


Alright, alright. Thanks for clearing that up because Majid gave me solid advice on a Rescue 8 and seemed to know his stuff, and I foolishly assumed he was a climber. Good to know, though! Thank you both.

As an example, to be able to lower an climber needing help down the cliff , you need to understand how they got there to begin with , what tools and techniques they used and what went wrong. in addition , the person who is planning to do this task needs to clearly understand climber's thought process, have proper knowledge on how to climb and what specialty tools he or she needs to do the job . This process includes: accessing the individual party needing help , build a plan based on best options with tools and resources available and execute it in a proper time.

Now,for some people, gaining these sort of knowledge and keeps things up to date, an internet site such as this place along with other climber's websites can be useful .

Feel free to ask any questions and if I do not have the answer, I am sure I am networked to get that answer for you.

peace


marc801


May 19, 2013, 10:42 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue
Have you looked at the various sub-forums on this site? Like the Campground?

Of the 30 topics on the first page of the Supertopo forum right now, arguably only 2 are totally non-climbing related. Perhaps another 10 are only peripherally related, most notably about members life events.


Ruff_Dog


May 19, 2013, 12:10 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before

Woah. You're not a climber? This poses two questions: With all due respect, what brings you here? And secondly, you gave me advice for rappeling in my thread, and while I know that climbers aren't the sole rappellers of the world, where did you learn that about the 8? You had said you used it.

Whatever else Majid may be, he is a legit source of knowledge on SAR stuff, and those guys know how to lower things.


Alright, alright. Thanks for clearing that up because Majid gave me solid advice on a Rescue 8 and seemed to know his stuff, and I foolishly assumed he was a climber. Good to know, though! Thank you both.

As an example, to be able to lower an climber needing help down the cliff , you need to understand how they got there to begin with , what tools and techniques they used and what went wrong. in addition , the person who is planning to do this task needs to clearly understand climber's thought process, have proper knowledge on how to climb and what specialty tools he or she needs to do the job . This process includes: accessing the individual party needing help , build a plan based on best options with tools and resources available and execute it in a proper time.

Now,for some people, gaining these sort of knowledge and keeps things up to date, an internet site such as this place along with other climber's websites can be useful .

Feel free to ask any questions and if I do not have the answer, I am sure I am networked to get that answer for you.

peace

Solid. Thanks. So you work for a SAR team or what?


majid_sabet


May 19, 2013, 12:27 PM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before

Woah. You're not a climber? This poses two questions: With all due respect, what brings you here? And secondly, you gave me advice for rappeling in my thread, and while I know that climbers aren't the sole rappellers of the world, where did you learn that about the 8? You had said you used it.

Whatever else Majid may be, he is a legit source of knowledge on SAR stuff, and those guys know how to lower things.


Alright, alright. Thanks for clearing that up because Majid gave me solid advice on a Rescue 8 and seemed to know his stuff, and I foolishly assumed he was a climber. Good to know, though! Thank you both.

As an example, to be able to lower an climber needing help down the cliff , you need to understand how they got there to begin with , what tools and techniques they used and what went wrong. in addition , the person who is planning to do this task needs to clearly understand climber's thought process, have proper knowledge on how to climb and what specialty tools he or she needs to do the job . This process includes: accessing the individual party needing help , build a plan based on best options with tools and resources available and execute it in a proper time.

Now,for some people, gaining these sort of knowledge and keeps things up to date, an internet site such as this place along with other climber's websites can be useful .

Feel free to ask any questions and if I do not have the answer, I am sure I am networked to get that answer for you.

peace

Solid. Thanks. So you work for a SAR team or what?

trying to get a book done.


Ruff_Dog


May 19, 2013, 12:58 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber and I said that a million times before

Woah. You're not a climber? This poses two questions: With all due respect, what brings you here? And secondly, you gave me advice for rappeling in my thread, and while I know that climbers aren't the sole rappellers of the world, where did you learn that about the 8? You had said you used it.

Whatever else Majid may be, he is a legit source of knowledge on SAR stuff, and those guys know how to lower things.


Alright, alright. Thanks for clearing that up because Majid gave me solid advice on a Rescue 8 and seemed to know his stuff, and I foolishly assumed he was a climber. Good to know, though! Thank you both.

As an example, to be able to lower an climber needing help down the cliff , you need to understand how they got there to begin with , what tools and techniques they used and what went wrong. in addition , the person who is planning to do this task needs to clearly understand climber's thought process, have proper knowledge on how to climb and what specialty tools he or she needs to do the job . This process includes: accessing the individual party needing help , build a plan based on best options with tools and resources available and execute it in a proper time.

Now,for some people, gaining these sort of knowledge and keeps things up to date, an internet site such as this place along with other climber's websites can be useful .

Feel free to ask any questions and if I do not have the answer, I am sure I am networked to get that answer for you.

peace

Solid. Thanks. So you work for a SAR team or what?

trying to get a book done.

When's the release date or approximate release date?


moose_droppings


May 19, 2013, 1:48 PM
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Individuals are responsible for any info they may get off the net. I don't see anybody here giving advice purposely trying to get someone injured, and when plain unsafe advice is given, there's always been someone here that speaks out about it. Sure a small caveat like 'have someone show you' or the likes might be helpful, but in the end, they're on their own. Many things can be self taught, but those with someone to teach them may learn faster. Speed and simpler ways come with mileage.

Safety systems in climbing aren't rocket science and many before us and many yet to come will figure a lot of this out on their own with a little info. Given the right book and advice those with a healthy respect for gravity and a little common sense can go a long way.

Remember the 'culling the herd' thread?


marc801


May 19, 2013, 3:16 PM
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Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

For fuck's sake this just isn't necessary.

OTOH, here we see the emergence of a reasonable, coherent, and mostly well-written Majid. Who are you and what have you done with the crazy Majid?


Ruff_Dog


May 19, 2013, 3:19 PM
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Re: [marc801] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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That's so necessary! I love how it looks. But yes, Majid is the man.

Now, I shall go wallow in misery as I failed my belay test today..


dan2see


May 19, 2013, 3:21 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
I've learned a bunch of stuff on RC.com over the years. Most of it "tricks of the trade" type stuff that augmented my existing knowledge and practices but I've found it to be a valuable resource nonetheless.

I'll share what I know, or at least THINK I know, if someone asks. It's what this place is for. That and trolling and posting pictures of boobies. You know, now that I think of it, there hasn't been a boobies thread in like two years. Jesus. This place is in decline!

I don't think I dole out advice to the impressionable.

I prefer telling about my own experiences. In fact, that's how I learned the tricks, by watching my friends, and listening to advice given while on the rocks. Of course I read stuff, and I think about what I read, too. I guess that I understand the benefits of watching and thinking, and so I expect everybody else to do that, too. Well nobody's perfect.

On the other hand, some posts in this site challenge my communication skills. I sometimes mis-read trolls, and I mis-read non-trolls. Then my comments are a waste of your bandwidth. Well nobody's perfect.

My favorite advice to guys looking for gear is "Choose the gear with the coolest color." and I guess most of you guys think I'm being silly. But when you shop at your local climbing store, the "climbing" stuff is always, only, strictly, safe and good enough for your vertical adventure. I give this advice to the novice with the expectation that he'll read the label and listen to the sales dude.

I try to stay away from advice about on-the-rocks practices. Too often, it's really hard to understand the actual scenario. So when I try to explain the "correct" procedure, it's like being on the wrong route and of course bad beta is stupid. Although sometimes I know I'm right.

I've enjoyed participating in the RockClimbing forums for 7 years, and I've certainly picked up some good advice from you guys.

But learning on the rocks, face-to-face with my friends of all abilities, has been my premier learning source. And sometimes Certified Mountain Guides. But mostly friends. On the rocks.


majid_sabet


May 19, 2013, 5:17 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
Individuals are responsible for any info they may get off the net. I don't see anybody here giving advice purposely trying to get someone injured, and when plain unsafe advice is given, there's always been someone here that speaks out about it. Sure a small caveat like 'have someone show you' or the likes might be helpful, but in the end, they're on their own. Many things can be self taught, but those with someone to teach them may learn faster. Speed and simpler ways come with mileage.

Safety systems in climbing aren't rocket science and many before us and many yet to come will figure a lot of this out on their own with a little info. Given the right book and advice those with a healthy respect for gravity and a little common sense can go a long way.

Remember the 'culling the herd' thread?


Safety systems in climbing aren't rocket science however, beginners must follow certain guideline to reduce their exposure to dangerous outcomes. Even pro have to follow the same thing but we seen it that its been ignored regularly like" I should had tie the knot at the end of the line but....."

if someone comes and ask what rack do I need, majority of people proved recommendations without knowing what the climber's capabilities are. very much like a salesman in a car lot selling a sport car to kid that just got his license rather than screening the person to see why a 230 ponder wants to do the El Cap in a day but never done anything more than 2 pitches in their life.

if someone ask me I want to buy a new rope and I just started climbing. I would recommend a 10.5 or even 11 mm rope to them. not that a 9.8 mm is bad rope but because that few extra mm and rope weight adds a little miles to their knowledge and eventually they will figure out that a 11mm rope is little heavy and they can perform better with lighter mm rope.

I think everyone especially the knowledgeable people round here have good intentions and wanted to provide accurate infos however, they spend less time screening to see who is seeking such infos and what are their backgrounds.

That was my 0.02


csproul


May 19, 2013, 5:37 PM
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Re: [marc801] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Ruff_Dog wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

For fuck's sake this just isn't necessary.

OTOH, here we see the emergence of a reasonable, coherent, and mostly well-written Majid. Who are you and what have you done with the crazy Majid?
Noobs gravitating toward the clueless.


moose_droppings


May 20, 2013, 4:56 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
Individuals are responsible for any info they may get off the net. I don't see anybody here giving advice purposely trying to get someone injured, and when plain unsafe advice is given, there's always been someone here that speaks out about it. Sure a small caveat like 'have someone show you' or the likes might be helpful, but in the end, they're on their own. Many things can be self taught, but those with someone to teach them may learn faster. Speed and simpler ways come with mileage.

Safety systems in climbing aren't rocket science and many before us and many yet to come will figure a lot of this out on their own with a little info. Given the right book and advice those with a healthy respect for gravity and a little common sense can go a long way.

Remember the 'culling the herd' thread?


Safety systems in climbing aren't rocket science however, beginners must follow certain guideline to reduce their exposure to dangerous outcomes. Even pro have to follow the same thing but we seen it that its been ignored regularly like" I should had tie the knot at the end of the line but....."

if someone comes and ask what rack do I need, majority of people proved recommendations without knowing what the climber's capabilities are. very much like a salesman in a car lot selling a sport car to kid that just got his license rather than screening the person to see why a 230 ponder wants to do the El Cap in a day but never done anything more than 2 pitches in their life.

if someone ask me I want to buy a new rope and I just started climbing. I would recommend a 10.5 or even 11 mm rope to them. not that a 9.8 mm is bad rope but because that few extra mm and rope weight adds a little miles to their knowledge and eventually they will figure out that a 11mm rope is little heavy and they can perform better with lighter mm rope.

I think everyone especially the knowledgeable people round here have good intentions and wanted to provide accurate infos however, they spend less time screening to see who is seeking such infos and what are their backgrounds.

That was my 0.02

Your probably right but I'm not taking the time to differentiate how far along the learning curve each person is that asks for info.


acorneau


May 20, 2013, 5:43 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
Your probably right but I'm not taking the time to differentiate how far along the learning curve each person is that asks for info.





RockyBobby


May 20, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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This has been a great thread. I started climbing 2 years in a gym and just started going outdoors in the past 2 months. Prior to going out on the first trip I read a basic climbing for beginners book and a small amount of research on sites like this. I went with a friend of a friend who was reasonably safe at the time but since the first trip we have both learned a lot. I learned all I know from reasonably helpful gym staff and reading forums like this. I drank many a beer while tying knots in my garage making mock set ups of anchors...I could barely tie my shoes before getting into climbing. While I do think there are times when some of the trolling gets out of hand for the most part it is just funny enough to suffer through. I am truly thankful for the people that post helpful and FREE advice. I have complete confidence in my ability to set up a top rope anchor and will soon be taking a lead class at my local gym. Without the access to all the free information I probably would still just be bouldering indoors....and we all know how everyone on here feels about those types.


moose_droppings


May 20, 2013, 6:12 PM
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Re: [acorneau] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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D'oh.

Smile


climber511


May 23, 2013, 9:06 AM
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Re: [qwert] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to. Most topics get sidetracked so quickly by people who I guess have some compulsive need to post but have nothing to say that getting a solid thread of answers is nearly impossible. The guys who actually have real world knowledge they might share are quickly run off by the nonsense. Most of the information on forums simply isn't very "informative".


Partner camhead


May 23, 2013, 11:05 AM
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Re: [climber511] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.


milesenoell


May 23, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Re: [camhead] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.


edge


May 23, 2013, 1:03 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.


jt512


May 23, 2013, 3:52 PM
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Re: [edge] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.

Which might actually be meaningful were it not for the fact that ratings by "moderators" count 5 (or is it more?) times those of ordinary users.


Partner camhead


May 23, 2013, 7:17 PM
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Re: [edge] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.

I wasn't going to name names. Lena_chita gets a lot of one stars, too, though, oh noez!


olderic


May 23, 2013, 7:21 PM
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Back to the original question - not the pitfalls of skewed popularity contests. The appropriate advice to give is that which is not already answered better elsewhere. that eliminates 99% of the situations here. All the questions that have relatively static answers - the ones in the vain of "how to I do this or that" - are inevitably answered better elsewhere - like in a book that someone has actually put some effort into writing as opposed to 5 minutes of typing stream of consciousness spray. Appropriate topics are dynamic ones - current conditions etc.

the problem with seeking advice here is that you are going to get 3 categories if responders:

1. those who know nothing but were first to "hit the buzzer". Usually they are easy to weed out.

2. the true expert with the actual knowledge and experience to answer the question. the problem here is that they are often again answering the same or a slight variant of the same question that they have done many times before. But because they are writing some longwinded eloquent response they may just miss some key point in the rush to collect more accolades. The true expert would give brief answers in the forms of references to most questions as opposed to attempting to collect more - "he's the man" type of responses.

3. The self proclaimed expert with a limited amount of knowledge and experience. They are sure they are right and tend to see things very black and white. What they offer isn't necessarily wrong but ignores a lot of subtleties and alternate situations that they don't have experience with. The most prolific of this type of responder is very good at paraphrasing and aggregating obvious knowledge and presenting it as their own with out any actual original thought.

a basic problem with the current instantiation of rockclimbing.com is the dominance of the type 3's. By weighing in on every thread they become the defacto experts and this originates a vicious cycle and the dilution of content quality,

A currently active per thread - the one about directionals at Peterskill - contains a classic exchange between type 2 and type 3 responders.


bearbreeder


May 23, 2013, 7:43 PM
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Re: [olderic] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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the "true" experts are out there climbing/guiding every day ... or work in the industry

they arent the people sitting around a computer rehashing arguments from old intraweb links over and over again

they generally cant be bothered by the petty arguments on the intraweb forums

its that simple Tongue


jt512


May 23, 2013, 7:57 PM
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Re: [olderic] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
Back to the original question - not the pitfalls of skewed popularity contests. The appropriate advice to give is that which is not already answered better elsewhere. that eliminates 99% of the situations here. All the questions that have relatively static answers - the ones in the vain of "how to I do this or that" - are inevitably answered better elsewhere - like in a book that someone has actually put some effort into writing as opposed to 5 minutes of typing stream of consciousness spray. Appropriate topics are dynamic ones - current conditions etc.

the problem with seeking advice here is that you are going to get 3 categories if responders:

1. those who know nothing but were first to "hit the buzzer". Usually they are easy to weed out.

2. the true expert with the actual knowledge and experience to answer the question. the problem here is that they are often again answering the same or a slight variant of the same question that they have done many times before. But because they are writing some longwinded eloquent response they may just miss some key point in the rush to collect more accolades. The true expert would give brief answers in the forms of references to most questions as opposed to attempting to collect more - "he's the man" type of responses.

3. The self proclaimed expert with a limited amount of knowledge and experience. They are sure they are right and tend to see things very black and white. What they offer isn't necessarily wrong but ignores a lot of subtleties and alternate situations that they don't have experience with. The most prolific of this type of responder is very good at paraphrasing and aggregating obvious knowledge and presenting it as their own with out any actual original thought.

a basic problem with the current instantiation of rockclimbing.com is the dominance of the type 3's. By weighing in on every thread they become the defacto experts and this originates a vicious cycle and the dilution of content quality,

A currently active per thread - the one about directionals at Peterskill - contains a classic exchange between type 2 and type 3 responders.

Which category is your response in?


jt512


May 23, 2013, 8:29 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
the "true" experts are out there climbing/guiding every day ... or work in the industry

they arent the people sitting around a computer rehashing arguments from old intraweb links over and over again

they generally cant be bothered by the petty arguments on the intraweb forums

its that simple Tongue

Thus, by your own argument, the advice you constantly dispense on this web site should not be listened to. That makes two of you in one thread so far. Anyone else?


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 23, 2013, 8:30 PM)


bearbreeder


May 23, 2013, 8:40 PM
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jt512 wrote:

Thus, by your own argument, the advice you constantly dispense on this web site should not be listened to. That makes two of you in one thread so far. Anyone else?

LOL mistah jay ...

im not a TRUE expert (i just climb daily when the weather permits outside) ... neither are you ... or most people here

you can listen to advice of "non experts" ... just take it with a grain of salt ... and go figure out things for yourself

experts dont go on the intraweb forums telling you youre gonna die if you dont do things exactly their way ... do you?

Tongue


jt512


May 23, 2013, 9:17 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Thus, by your own argument, the advice you constantly dispense on this web site should not be listened to. That makes two of you in one thread so far. Anyone else?

LOL mistah jay ...

So, this "mistah" thing you always do. It's supposed to be what, an insult?


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 23, 2013, 9:18 PM)


bearbreeder


May 23, 2013, 9:28 PM
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Nonsense ... Id never insult a TRUE expert like u

Wink


qwert


May 24, 2013, 1:08 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
the "true" experts are out there climbing/guiding every day ... or work in the industry
And the reverse does mean that the persons who post often can not be experts (what is an expert anyways?) because they do have time for internet?

While i would agree that someone who always posts stuff on everything 24-7 is probably clueless that system fails with most other constellations.

qwert


qwert


May 24, 2013, 1:20 AM
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olderic wrote:
All the questions that have relatively static answers - the ones in the vain of "how to I do this or that" - are inevitably answered better elsewhere - like in a book that someone has actually put some effort into writing as opposed to 5 minutes of typing stream of consciousness spray. Appropriate topics are dynamic ones - current conditions etc.
I guess this thing is something many new posters do not understand.

A forum is for discussions, and many things in climbing do not need discussion. There is simply an accepted and right way (or maybe two or three) and a wrong way (or rather, hundreds of wrong ways).

And it is very unlikely that some n00b/some discussion by random internet anons will discover a new, right and better way.

Of course it is legitimate to discuss some finer points of those accepted ways (e.g. american v. european school of thought, device a vs. device b) but the general basics should be learned by a course and/or a book.

Of course there is an overlap with the dynamic topics. The conditions at a crag might require an anchor that is not 100% textbook. Or a new device might require some discussion about things that are not (yet?) in its manual (e.g. - and please correct me if i am wrong - wasnt the grigris accepted method of use NOT in the manual at first?, or the threads on the new edelrid mega jul).

qwert


bearbreeder


May 24, 2013, 8:29 AM
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qwert wrote:
And the reverse does mean that the persons who post often can not be experts (what is an expert anyways?) because they do have time for internet?

While i would agree that someone who always posts stuff on everything 24-7 is probably clueless that system fails with most other constellations.

qwert

no doubt there are "experts" on some sites ... but they arent the ones regurgitating the same old intraweb links arguing over the same old ways yr gonna die if you dont do things their way

ive been swimming for 30+ years ... yet im a total crap swimmer ... a probably go once a month, i even took lessons when i was a kid ... but i dont push myself at all, i rarely swim in the open ocean, and i dont swim competitively ... i just do it for "fun"

now i havent drowned yet, and i could probably give a newbie a few tips on how not to die swimming, and maybe the occasional tip on how to get a bit better ... but chances are some young buck who swims hard competitively and trains every day knows more about swimming than i do after a few years

in absolute no way should i ever be mistaken for a swimming "expert"

the "expert" swimmers are generally swimming competively every day (or were before they retired) or coaching or working in industry

its that simple

Wink


USnavy


May 24, 2013, 10:24 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber




(This post was edited by USnavy on May 24, 2013, 10:25 PM)


Partner camhead


May 25, 2013, 6:26 AM
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Re: [USnavy] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber



Am I the only one who is reminded of South Park's "cripple fights" whenever USn00b and Majidiot get into it?


billcoe_


May 25, 2013, 8:03 AM
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Re: [milesenoell] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
I'm not interested in the legal aspects at all. What I am is someone who taught themselves to build anchors, place pro, and roped solo. I made use of books, the net and advice from people I didn't know all that well. Nowhere have I found as much antipathy toward that approach as I seem to find here at this site. Cascade Climbers, ST and MP all seem to be significantly freer with advice, and I'm curious if it is simply because they have more knowledge to bestow, or if the folks on here are intentionally holding back out of some altruistic attempt to protect the nOObs from themselves.

I think a lot of the highly qualified people have left Rockclimbing.com for whatever reason. That's the answer. Not that smart folks are holding out on you. I'd also say that the choices in your poll are very poor. Furthermore, what I see is that the search function on RC.com is rarely used, people just keep asking the very same questions that have already been answered ALREADY. Many times. Sometimes many many many many many many many many times. Sigh.

In either case, if folks had a quality quotient rating under their name as the aggregate number of stars in their responses built up, it would go a long way to defining who is bullshit and who is real. However, although you'd have old masters like Rgold and Healyje on top of the pile, JT512 would be at the bottom as some dickhead chickenshit moderator seems to give all his posts 1 star even when they are 5 stars and despite the fact that Jay has his shit together more than 99% of folks here, and seems to not answer things he is unfamiliar with while talking about those he is an expert in.

In particular to your question about soloing, HealyJe has the best roped solo post advice (for leading). (Do a search, don't ask me to do it for you, if you were really interested you'd just do it yourself.) He use to get a lot of mileage in soloing multipitches, and the first time I ever saw him was looking over and he was on another route's 2nd pitch soloing. In fact, I hate to rope solo, would much rather free solo, but use his system at times and it works. T=If, after searching, you can't find the info you want, start your post out "I did a search but......" should get some more replies.

But there has been a lot of climbers leave the site, often due to dickhead and chickenshit moderators.

Hope that furthers the conversation along and gains you some info you might wish to have.

Regards


majid_sabet


May 25, 2013, 12:34 PM
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edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.

do troll masters get a high rating too ?


USnavy


May 25, 2013, 7:23 PM
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Re: [] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

USNoob, not so much.
Damn straight, someone has to set the bottom. I mean, come on, I have climbed four VIs on El Cap, five grade Vs, 20+ IVs up to 5.12+, 10,000+ pitches over the last 11 years in 50+ locations worldwide. I can also lead A3 and 5.12 and I have taken around 1,000 lead falls getting there. I have also climbed internationally-recognized lines like Astroman and The Nose (neither of which are the hardest lines I have done) and I am considering climbing a grade VII next year. Yet I am the largest noob on the forum. Well, at least we know what the bottom standard is. I am sure curious as to what everyone else climbs if I am at the bottom. Maybe RC.com can teach me how to free-solo-onsight-free-climb A5?


majid_sabet


May 25, 2013, 8:46 PM
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USnavy wrote:
edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

USNoob, not so much.
Damn straight, someone has to set the bottom. I mean, come on, I have climbed four VIs on El Cap, five grade Vs, 20+ IVs up to 5.12+, 10,000+ pitches over the last 11 years in 50+ locations worldwide. I can also lead A3 and 5.12 and I have taken around 1,000 lead falls getting there. I have also climbed internationally-recognized lines like Astroman and The Nose (neither of which are the hardest lines I have done) and I am considering climbing a grade VII next year. Yet I am the largest noob on the forum. Well, at least we know what the bottom standard is. I am sure curious as to what everyone else climbs if I am at the bottom. Maybe RC.com can teach me how to free-solo-onsight-free-climb A5?


1000 lead fall
10000 pitches here and there
V4 and V5
climbed internationally ......











you are still a n00b


marc801


May 26, 2013, 9:00 AM
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Re: [USnavy] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Damn straight, someone has to set the bottom. I mean, come on, I have climbed four VIs on El Cap, five grade Vs, 20+ IVs up to 5.12+, 10,000+ pitches over the last 11 years in 50+ locations worldwide. I can also lead A3 and 5.12 and I have taken around 1,000 lead falls getting there. I have also climbed internationally-recognized lines like Astroman and The Nose (neither of which are the hardest lines I have done) and I am considering climbing a grade VII next year. Yet I am the largest noob on the forum. Well, at least we know what the bottom standard is. I am sure curious as to what everyone else climbs if I am at the bottom. Maybe RC.com can teach me how to free-solo-onsight-free-climb A5?
I don't know about n00b, but you sure have egomaniac spray-lord nailed.


Partner camhead


May 28, 2013, 8:51 AM
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USnavy wrote:
...20+ IVs up to 5.12+

I'm just selecting this bit from your barrage of spray. You know what "sending" is, right? You probably sent Astroman; after all, it's only a 5.11, so to free climb the entire thing in good style would be pretty casual.

Oh, and can you tell me which specific Grade IV/5.12+ it is that you have sent (again: send = free ascent, no aiding. Otherwise, you should be using aid ratings, not free ratings)?


(This post was edited by camhead on May 28, 2013, 8:54 AM)


fitzontherocks


May 28, 2013, 11:00 AM
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Re: [camhead] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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For the record, "Pancakes" is the leading answer to the OP's original question. I think that speaks volumes.


iknowfear


May 28, 2013, 2:20 PM
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fitzontherocks wrote:
For the record, "Pancakes" is the leading answer to the OP's original question. I think that speaks volumes.

ask and you shall recieve:

http://southernfood.about.com/...ffles/r/bl60123b.htm


oldguy53


Jun 10, 2013, 12:38 PM
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Anybody who would use info from the internet to climb is NUTS. Ya need a qualified instructor to teach, show and then watch you preform ever new skill. Not only the 'how' but the ' why '. Buy some good medical insurance.


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