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What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this?
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Poll: What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this?
I'll tell you about anything. Who cares if you die? 9 / 27%
I don't give advice to dangerous idiots. 9 / 27%
I don't give advice to nOObs. 0 / 0%
I don't give advice over the internet. 1 / 3%
I don't give advice to anyone, ever. 0 / 0%
Pancakes 14 / 42%
33 total votes
 

acorneau


May 20, 2013, 5:43 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Your probably right but I'm not taking the time to differentiate how far along the learning curve each person is that asks for info.





RockyBobby


May 20, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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This has been a great thread. I started climbing 2 years in a gym and just started going outdoors in the past 2 months. Prior to going out on the first trip I read a basic climbing for beginners book and a small amount of research on sites like this. I went with a friend of a friend who was reasonably safe at the time but since the first trip we have both learned a lot. I learned all I know from reasonably helpful gym staff and reading forums like this. I drank many a beer while tying knots in my garage making mock set ups of anchors...I could barely tie my shoes before getting into climbing. While I do think there are times when some of the trolling gets out of hand for the most part it is just funny enough to suffer through. I am truly thankful for the people that post helpful and FREE advice. I have complete confidence in my ability to set up a top rope anchor and will soon be taking a lead class at my local gym. Without the access to all the free information I probably would still just be bouldering indoors....and we all know how everyone on here feels about those types.


moose_droppings


May 20, 2013, 6:12 PM
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Re: [acorneau] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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D'oh.

Smile


climber511


May 23, 2013, 9:06 AM
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Re: [qwert] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to. Most topics get sidetracked so quickly by people who I guess have some compulsive need to post but have nothing to say that getting a solid thread of answers is nearly impossible. The guys who actually have real world knowledge they might share are quickly run off by the nonsense. Most of the information on forums simply isn't very "informative".


Partner camhead


May 23, 2013, 11:05 AM
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Re: [climber511] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.


milesenoell


May 23, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Re: [camhead] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.


edge


May 23, 2013, 1:03 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.


jt512


May 23, 2013, 3:52 PM
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Re: [edge] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.

Which might actually be meaningful were it not for the fact that ratings by "moderators" count 5 (or is it more?) times those of ordinary users.


Partner camhead


May 23, 2013, 7:17 PM
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Re: [edge] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.

I wasn't going to name names. Lena_chita gets a lot of one stars, too, though, oh noez!


olderic


May 23, 2013, 7:21 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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Back to the original question - not the pitfalls of skewed popularity contests. The appropriate advice to give is that which is not already answered better elsewhere. that eliminates 99% of the situations here. All the questions that have relatively static answers - the ones in the vain of "how to I do this or that" - are inevitably answered better elsewhere - like in a book that someone has actually put some effort into writing as opposed to 5 minutes of typing stream of consciousness spray. Appropriate topics are dynamic ones - current conditions etc.

the problem with seeking advice here is that you are going to get 3 categories if responders:

1. those who know nothing but were first to "hit the buzzer". Usually they are easy to weed out.

2. the true expert with the actual knowledge and experience to answer the question. the problem here is that they are often again answering the same or a slight variant of the same question that they have done many times before. But because they are writing some longwinded eloquent response they may just miss some key point in the rush to collect more accolades. The true expert would give brief answers in the forms of references to most questions as opposed to attempting to collect more - "he's the man" type of responses.

3. The self proclaimed expert with a limited amount of knowledge and experience. They are sure they are right and tend to see things very black and white. What they offer isn't necessarily wrong but ignores a lot of subtleties and alternate situations that they don't have experience with. The most prolific of this type of responder is very good at paraphrasing and aggregating obvious knowledge and presenting it as their own with out any actual original thought.

a basic problem with the current instantiation of rockclimbing.com is the dominance of the type 3's. By weighing in on every thread they become the defacto experts and this originates a vicious cycle and the dilution of content quality,

A currently active per thread - the one about directionals at Peterskill - contains a classic exchange between type 2 and type 3 responders.


bearbreeder


May 23, 2013, 7:43 PM
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Re: [olderic] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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the "true" experts are out there climbing/guiding every day ... or work in the industry

they arent the people sitting around a computer rehashing arguments from old intraweb links over and over again

they generally cant be bothered by the petty arguments on the intraweb forums

its that simple Tongue


jt512


May 23, 2013, 7:57 PM
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Re: [olderic] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
Back to the original question - not the pitfalls of skewed popularity contests. The appropriate advice to give is that which is not already answered better elsewhere. that eliminates 99% of the situations here. All the questions that have relatively static answers - the ones in the vain of "how to I do this or that" - are inevitably answered better elsewhere - like in a book that someone has actually put some effort into writing as opposed to 5 minutes of typing stream of consciousness spray. Appropriate topics are dynamic ones - current conditions etc.

the problem with seeking advice here is that you are going to get 3 categories if responders:

1. those who know nothing but were first to "hit the buzzer". Usually they are easy to weed out.

2. the true expert with the actual knowledge and experience to answer the question. the problem here is that they are often again answering the same or a slight variant of the same question that they have done many times before. But because they are writing some longwinded eloquent response they may just miss some key point in the rush to collect more accolades. The true expert would give brief answers in the forms of references to most questions as opposed to attempting to collect more - "he's the man" type of responses.

3. The self proclaimed expert with a limited amount of knowledge and experience. They are sure they are right and tend to see things very black and white. What they offer isn't necessarily wrong but ignores a lot of subtleties and alternate situations that they don't have experience with. The most prolific of this type of responder is very good at paraphrasing and aggregating obvious knowledge and presenting it as their own with out any actual original thought.

a basic problem with the current instantiation of rockclimbing.com is the dominance of the type 3's. By weighing in on every thread they become the defacto experts and this originates a vicious cycle and the dilution of content quality,

A currently active per thread - the one about directionals at Peterskill - contains a classic exchange between type 2 and type 3 responders.

Which category is your response in?


jt512


May 23, 2013, 8:29 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
the "true" experts are out there climbing/guiding every day ... or work in the industry

they arent the people sitting around a computer rehashing arguments from old intraweb links over and over again

they generally cant be bothered by the petty arguments on the intraweb forums

its that simple Tongue

Thus, by your own argument, the advice you constantly dispense on this web site should not be listened to. That makes two of you in one thread so far. Anyone else?


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 23, 2013, 8:30 PM)


bearbreeder


May 23, 2013, 8:40 PM
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Re: [jt512] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

Thus, by your own argument, the advice you constantly dispense on this web site should not be listened to. That makes two of you in one thread so far. Anyone else?

LOL mistah jay ...

im not a TRUE expert (i just climb daily when the weather permits outside) ... neither are you ... or most people here

you can listen to advice of "non experts" ... just take it with a grain of salt ... and go figure out things for yourself

experts dont go on the intraweb forums telling you youre gonna die if you dont do things exactly their way ... do you?

Tongue


jt512


May 23, 2013, 9:17 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Thus, by your own argument, the advice you constantly dispense on this web site should not be listened to. That makes two of you in one thread so far. Anyone else?

LOL mistah jay ...

So, this "mistah" thing you always do. It's supposed to be what, an insult?


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 23, 2013, 9:18 PM)


bearbreeder


May 23, 2013, 9:28 PM
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Nonsense ... Id never insult a TRUE expert like u

Wink


qwert


May 24, 2013, 1:08 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
the "true" experts are out there climbing/guiding every day ... or work in the industry
And the reverse does mean that the persons who post often can not be experts (what is an expert anyways?) because they do have time for internet?

While i would agree that someone who always posts stuff on everything 24-7 is probably clueless that system fails with most other constellations.

qwert


qwert


May 24, 2013, 1:20 AM
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olderic wrote:
All the questions that have relatively static answers - the ones in the vain of "how to I do this or that" - are inevitably answered better elsewhere - like in a book that someone has actually put some effort into writing as opposed to 5 minutes of typing stream of consciousness spray. Appropriate topics are dynamic ones - current conditions etc.
I guess this thing is something many new posters do not understand.

A forum is for discussions, and many things in climbing do not need discussion. There is simply an accepted and right way (or maybe two or three) and a wrong way (or rather, hundreds of wrong ways).

And it is very unlikely that some n00b/some discussion by random internet anons will discover a new, right and better way.

Of course it is legitimate to discuss some finer points of those accepted ways (e.g. american v. european school of thought, device a vs. device b) but the general basics should be learned by a course and/or a book.

Of course there is an overlap with the dynamic topics. The conditions at a crag might require an anchor that is not 100% textbook. Or a new device might require some discussion about things that are not (yet?) in its manual (e.g. - and please correct me if i am wrong - wasnt the grigris accepted method of use NOT in the manual at first?, or the threads on the new edelrid mega jul).

qwert


bearbreeder


May 24, 2013, 8:29 AM
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qwert wrote:
And the reverse does mean that the persons who post often can not be experts (what is an expert anyways?) because they do have time for internet?

While i would agree that someone who always posts stuff on everything 24-7 is probably clueless that system fails with most other constellations.

qwert

no doubt there are "experts" on some sites ... but they arent the ones regurgitating the same old intraweb links arguing over the same old ways yr gonna die if you dont do things their way

ive been swimming for 30+ years ... yet im a total crap swimmer ... a probably go once a month, i even took lessons when i was a kid ... but i dont push myself at all, i rarely swim in the open ocean, and i dont swim competitively ... i just do it for "fun"

now i havent drowned yet, and i could probably give a newbie a few tips on how not to die swimming, and maybe the occasional tip on how to get a bit better ... but chances are some young buck who swims hard competitively and trains every day knows more about swimming than i do after a few years

in absolute no way should i ever be mistaken for a swimming "expert"

the "expert" swimmers are generally swimming competively every day (or were before they retired) or coaching or working in industry

its that simple

Wink


USnavy


May 24, 2013, 10:24 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber




(This post was edited by USnavy on May 24, 2013, 10:25 PM)


Partner camhead


May 25, 2013, 6:26 AM
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USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

in ST or MP, you got people who talk outside of that media format cause place runs by hardcore climbers.

OHH they are coming after me

are you a "hardcore climber" there mahjeed? Wink

i mean really do we need a "boobs" thread, "why republicans are wrong" thread, and threads where uses call each other pedos for posting up innocent kid pics ....

thats whats on "harcore cllmber" site Tongue

I am not a climber



Am I the only one who is reminded of South Park's "cripple fights" whenever USn00b and Majidiot get into it?


billcoe_


May 25, 2013, 8:03 AM
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milesenoell wrote:
I'm not interested in the legal aspects at all. What I am is someone who taught themselves to build anchors, place pro, and roped solo. I made use of books, the net and advice from people I didn't know all that well. Nowhere have I found as much antipathy toward that approach as I seem to find here at this site. Cascade Climbers, ST and MP all seem to be significantly freer with advice, and I'm curious if it is simply because they have more knowledge to bestow, or if the folks on here are intentionally holding back out of some altruistic attempt to protect the nOObs from themselves.

I think a lot of the highly qualified people have left Rockclimbing.com for whatever reason. That's the answer. Not that smart folks are holding out on you. I'd also say that the choices in your poll are very poor. Furthermore, what I see is that the search function on RC.com is rarely used, people just keep asking the very same questions that have already been answered ALREADY. Many times. Sometimes many many many many many many many many times. Sigh.

In either case, if folks had a quality quotient rating under their name as the aggregate number of stars in their responses built up, it would go a long way to defining who is bullshit and who is real. However, although you'd have old masters like Rgold and Healyje on top of the pile, JT512 would be at the bottom as some dickhead chickenshit moderator seems to give all his posts 1 star even when they are 5 stars and despite the fact that Jay has his shit together more than 99% of folks here, and seems to not answer things he is unfamiliar with while talking about those he is an expert in.

In particular to your question about soloing, HealyJe has the best roped solo post advice (for leading). (Do a search, don't ask me to do it for you, if you were really interested you'd just do it yourself.) He use to get a lot of mileage in soloing multipitches, and the first time I ever saw him was looking over and he was on another route's 2nd pitch soloing. In fact, I hate to rope solo, would much rather free solo, but use his system at times and it works. T=If, after searching, you can't find the info you want, start your post out "I did a search but......" should get some more replies.

But there has been a lot of climbers leave the site, often due to dickhead and chickenshit moderators.

Hope that furthers the conversation along and gains you some info you might wish to have.

Regards


majid_sabet


May 25, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Re: [edge] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

That feature is available to mods, and yes, rgold has a very high ranking. USNoob, not so much.

do troll masters get a high rating too ?


USnavy


May 25, 2013, 7:23 PM
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edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

USNoob, not so much.
Damn straight, someone has to set the bottom. I mean, come on, I have climbed four VIs on El Cap, five grade Vs, 20+ IVs up to 5.12+, 10,000+ pitches over the last 11 years in 50+ locations worldwide. I can also lead A3 and 5.12 and I have taken around 1,000 lead falls getting there. I have also climbed internationally-recognized lines like Astroman and The Nose (neither of which are the hardest lines I have done) and I am considering climbing a grade VII next year. Yet I am the largest noob on the forum. Well, at least we know what the bottom standard is. I am sure curious as to what everyone else climbs if I am at the bottom. Maybe RC.com can teach me how to free-solo-onsight-free-climb A5?


majid_sabet


May 25, 2013, 8:46 PM
Post #50 of 55 (1565 views)
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Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8368

Re: [USnavy] What kind of advice is appropriate for a site like this? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
edge wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
camhead wrote:
climber511 wrote:
Forums in all areas, not just climbing ones, generally run the gamut with "experts" offering advice who are 15 year old keyboard warriors who have never left the gym to guys with 40 years on the rocks and trips all over the world. The problem is sorting out which is which and who to listen to.

The star system on this site is actually a good place to start in determining the quality of various "experts'" advice. It would be nicer if there were some sort of feature on this site for seeing a user's cumulative, rather than individual, star ratings– in other words, a user gets too many one-stars, and they'll get flagged as having bad advice. hehe, yeah right.

We can wish can't we?

Even if it was only for positive reviews, it would be nice for folks to see that a poster tends to know their stuff. rgold for instance, consistently writes excellent posts, yet it can take browsing older threads to see the accumulation of high star ratings since fresh posts just haven't had time to show the trends clearly.

USNoob, not so much.
Damn straight, someone has to set the bottom. I mean, come on, I have climbed four VIs on El Cap, five grade Vs, 20+ IVs up to 5.12+, 10,000+ pitches over the last 11 years in 50+ locations worldwide. I can also lead A3 and 5.12 and I have taken around 1,000 lead falls getting there. I have also climbed internationally-recognized lines like Astroman and The Nose (neither of which are the hardest lines I have done) and I am considering climbing a grade VII next year. Yet I am the largest noob on the forum. Well, at least we know what the bottom standard is. I am sure curious as to what everyone else climbs if I am at the bottom. Maybe RC.com can teach me how to free-solo-onsight-free-climb A5?


1000 lead fall
10000 pitches here and there
V4 and V5
climbed internationally ......











you are still a n00b

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