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Partner rgold


Jun 9, 2013, 12:51 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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If you've convinced yourself that you need the flexibility to untie your cordelette so that you can use it to put a bowline around a "fixed point," then nothing anyone can say is going to do much good.

My point was that you don't need this "flexibility" at all (generations of highly experienced climbers have climbed their entire careers without ever once having to do this) and so you might as well just knot your cordelette with a strong secure knot and cut it off if an emergency arises and you need your cordelette for rappel slings, for example.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you'd like to post a picture of a situation that requires you to untie the cordelette and then retie it with a bowline?


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 1:02 PM
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Re: [rgold] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
If you've convinced yourself that you need the flexibility to untie your cordelette so that you can use it to put a bowline around a "fixed point," then nothing anyone can say is going to do much good.

My point was that you don't need this "flexibility" at all (generations of highly experienced climbers have climbed their entire careers without ever once having to do this) and so you might as well just knot your cordelette with a strong secure knot and cut it off if an emergency arises and you need your cordelette for rappel slings, for example.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you'd like to post a picture of a situation that requires you to untie the cordelette and then retie it with a bowline?
Where is the hostility coming from? First of all I am not sure why you believe that if I insist on not knotting my cordelette then "nothing anyone can say is going to do much good." I am asking about the stability and safety of a knot. If you do not have that knowledge then thanks anyways. Secondly, if you want an example, for instance I need to tie the cordelete around a large rock formation. If the cordelete is in a loop it would take more than double the amount of rope to tie it around as opposed to it being open. I know I might be the beginner but i dont need you arrogant "benefit of the doubt".


(This post was edited by jberk on Jun 9, 2013, 1:06 PM)


padlinfool


Jun 9, 2013, 1:22 PM
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Re: [acorneau] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
padlinfool wrote:
swaghole wrote:

Instead of climbing wiith a cordalette that is tied in a loop, you could try building your anchors with a cordalette that is not looped but instead has figure 8s tied at each end.

The above method will not equalize the pieces well as most of the load will be transferred to the piece with the double strand. The single strands will stretch more because there is less material on those legs.

You're missing the concept of clipping the two ends to the same piece and then continuing the regular cordelette system as usual. That yields the same result as a looped cord but without actually having the two ends tied together.

Yes, that concept is better, but it is not stated in swaghole's post. I still believe the double knotted leg will stretch more and contribute less.

I don't think "equalization is myth" (per bearbreeder), just an unattainable goal, but a goal all the same. Otherwise, we would just be chaining be stuff together, redundant yes, but not the best system. The attempted sharing of the load among the pieces is a major concept of a bomber anchor.

I still prefer the open ended cordelette setup with its adjustable length, single masterpoint knot and unknotted, doubled legs ..where possible..YMMV


jmeizis


Jun 9, 2013, 4:23 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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I tie my cordalettes exclusively with single EDK's in 6 and 7 mil nylon cord. I use my cordalette this way during the 200 or some odd days I spend climbing outside. In the several years I've been using this configuration I have not had a problem. That does not mean it is without limitations.

I find it helpful to untie it on alpine climbs where I may be threading around boulders or rock pinches.

I find I untie it less often for setting up topropes or any single pitch stuff.

There are plenty of other knots for joining ropes, depending on their application and your needs some may be better. Make sure it's dressed and you have decently long tails.

Assuming you build bomber anchors then the capsizing of the knot is irrelevant because it is isolated from the rest of the anchor legs by the masterpoint knot. If you are not isolating the knot in your anchor you may consider a different knot.


moose_droppings


Jun 9, 2013, 5:34 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Have you tried the figure 8 bend.
Comes apart fairly easily even after a good force has been applied.


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 5:54 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
Have you tried the figure 8 bend.
Comes apart fairly easily even after a good force has been applied.
Are you referring to the Flemish figure eight?


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 5:56 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
I tie my cordalettes exclusively with single EDK's in 6 and 7 mil nylon cord. I use my cordalette this way during the 200 or some odd days I spend climbing outside. In the several years I've been using this configuration I have not had a problem. That does not mean it is without limitations.

I find it helpful to untie it on alpine climbs where I may be threading around boulders or rock pinches.

I find I untie it less often for setting up topropes or any single pitch stuff.

There are plenty of other knots for joining ropes, depending on their application and your needs some may be better. Make sure it's dressed and you have decently long tails.

Assuming you build bomber anchors then the capsizing of the knot is irrelevant because it is isolated from the rest of the anchor legs by the masterpoint knot. If you are not isolating the knot in your anchor you may consider a different knot.
Thanks so much. How much tail do you recommend with 6mm cordelette with an EDK backed up with another EDK? Is 6inch enough? My cordelette is a little stiff, should i leave more? Thanks.


Partner rgold


Jun 9, 2013, 6:01 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
Where is the hostility coming from?...i dont need you arrogant "benefit of the doubt".

Ok, sorry about that, carry on with what you want to do.

You've had several answers, and the best is to not have any knots in the cordelette at all. Here's a video that explains how to do it and gives the advantages of the approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85CPr8c


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 6:46 PM
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Re: [rgold] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
jberk wrote:
Where is the hostility coming from?...i dont need you arrogant "benefit of the doubt".

Ok, sorry about that, carry on with what you want to do.

You've had several answers, and the best is to not have any knots in the cordelette at all. Here's a video that explains how to do it and gives the advantages of the approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85CPr8c
Thanks. I do like this method it really does seem to eliminate the knot as a failure point. My only concern is that I haven't really found it it any materials aside from youtube. Have you used it? Is this method commonly used?


shockabuku


Jun 9, 2013, 7:43 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Flemish bend may work better.


ncrockclimber


Jun 9, 2013, 7:53 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
Where is the hostility coming from? First of all I am not sure why you believe that if I insist on not knotting my cordelette then "nothing anyone can say is going to do much good." I am asking about the stability and safety of a knot. If you do not have that knowledge then thanks anyways. Secondly, if you want an example, for instance I need to tie the cordelete around a large rock formation. If the cordelete is in a loop it would take more than double the amount of rope to tie it around as opposed to it being open. I know I might be the beginner but i dont need you arrogant "benefit of the doubt".

jberk, You just acted like an ass to one of the most experienced and knowledgable folks who still posts on this site. If you continue to climb and increase your knowledge base, you will someday understand how stupid you look right now.

From your post above and others in this thread it is obvious that you are inexperienced and not open to feedback. In the future when posting you should just tell folks what you are going to do, then ask only for responses that applaud your plans. It will save folks from wasting their time responding with ways in which you can improve your technique and increase your safety.

Cary on, and good luck.


acorneau


Jun 9, 2013, 7:53 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
Have you tried the figure 8 bend.
Comes apart fairly easily even after a good force has been applied.
Are you referring to the Flemish figure eight?

Yes, the Figure-8 bend and the Flemish bend are the same thing:

http://www.animatedknots.com/....php?Categ=typebends


Partner rgold


Jun 9, 2013, 7:54 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
My only concern is that I haven't really found it it any materials aside from youtube. Have you used it? Is this method commonly used?

It's what I do with my cordelette, but as you may have surmised from my "arrogant" remarks, I almost never even carry a cordelette.

The method isn't commonly used as far as I know, and I don't know of it making it into any books yet. But it makes more sense, doesn't it?


billl7


Jun 9, 2013, 8:05 PM
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Re: [rgold] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
The method isn't commonly used as far as I know, and I don't know of it making it into any books yet.

About 9 years ago, a local guide showed it to me during a day of training. Haven't seen it in use since though maybe it is more common amongst SAR folks? I can imagine them having quite a bit more occasion to use an open stretch of cord.

The video is helpful although the guide did not suggest closing the loop at the time. I wonder if the reason for tying the ends together relates to anchoring using the shelf (something I haven't found really necessary anyways and very rarely do).

Likewise, I haven't seen anyone actually using the technique (i.e., untied ends). But seems okay. I find myself frequently tying knots without backing up the tails - situation dependent.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 9, 2013, 8:06 PM)


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 8:09 PM
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Re: [ncrockclimber] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
jberk wrote:
Where is the hostility coming from? First of all I am not sure why you believe that if I insist on not knotting my cordelette then "nothing anyone can say is going to do much good." I am asking about the stability and safety of a knot. If you do not have that knowledge then thanks anyways. Secondly, if you want an example, for instance I need to tie the cordelete around a large rock formation. If the cordelete is in a loop it would take more than double the amount of rope to tie it around as opposed to it being open. I know I might be the beginner but i dont need you arrogant "benefit of the doubt".

jberk, You just acted like an ass to one of the most experienced and knowledgable folks who still posts on this site. If you continue to climb and increase your knowledge base, you will someday understand how stupid you look right now.

From your post above and others in this thread it is obvious that you are inexperienced and not open to feedback. In the future when posting you should just tell folks what you are going to do, then ask only for responses that applaud your plans. It will save folks from wasting their time responding with ways in which you can improve your technique and increase your safety.

Cary on, and good luck.
First of all I did post in the beginners forum so I do recognize that my information base is lacking. Secondly, I am not sure if you are simply slow but the entire purpose of my post was inquiring about the safety of knot. Or if someone had another knot suggestion that would accomplish the same effect. I did not once ask for someone to "applaud" my technique, rather I was attempting to confirm its safety. I am not opposed to new information or advice from experts but I do have a specific need. Feedback telling me that my needs are non-existent is a useless post. I did not ask you to spend time addressing my questions and needs so dont attempt to grandstand with regards to your time.


jberk


Jun 9, 2013, 8:10 PM
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Re: [rgold] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
jberk wrote:
My only concern is that I haven't really found it it any materials aside from youtube. Have you used it? Is this method commonly used?

It's what I do with my cordelette, but as you may have surmised from my "arrogant" remarks, I almost never even carry a cordelette.

The method isn't commonly used as far as I know, and I don't know of it making it into any books yet. But it makes more sense, doesn't it?
Abosuletly. I think that this might be the perfect solution, thanks so much!


ncrockclimber


Jun 9, 2013, 8:24 PM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Wow. You are inexperienced, arrogant and a dick. I'm done.


Partner rgold


Jun 9, 2013, 8:36 PM
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Re: [billl7] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Yes Bill, the idea has been around for a long time. I think it isn't popular because most people who use cordelettes don't untie them. (We have Jim as a counterexample to that claim, however.)

Forgetting about untying the cordelette, the video makes it evident that there are other advantages to the no-knot method, e.g. adjustability.

I do think the part about tying the ends together in order to "close the system" is silly. There is nothing "open" about the system without that extra little knot. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt anything to tie it either. Personally, I don't do it.

Without, I hope, raising again the issue about who is, in fact, arrogant, I at least would not be particularly happy with a belay anchor made of a single loop of 7mm or less cord around a rock feature. The issue is the susceptibility of small-diameter cordage to cutting or abrading when in contact with multiple facets and features of a complex rock surface and subjected to either shock loads or cyclical loading. I don't know of any data on this but have seen some very sobering examples.


jt512


Jun 9, 2013, 10:35 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
I tie my cordalettes exclusively with single EDK's in 6 and 7 mil nylon cord. I use my cordalette this way during the 200 or some odd days I spend climbing outside. In the several years I've been using this configuration I have not had a problem.

Well, anyone who ever has had a problem doing that is no longer here to talk about it. Likewise, the first time you have such a problem will also be the last.

The EDK is basically a crappy knot whose weaknesses happen to not matter very much for joining rappel ropes, because rappel ropes don't need to withstand large loads. Additionally, the EDK has a unique low profile that makes it less likely to get stuck while pulling rappel ropes. But, if subjected to large loads, the EDK rolls repeatedly, and unless tied with long tails (recommended 18 inches long in climbing rope), the knot can roll off the ends of the rope, in which case, RIP. These characteristics make the EDK a good knot for joining rappel ropes, but not much else, save clipping your approach shoes to your harness.

A multipitch belay anchor should be able to withstand a factor-2 fall with a safety margin to spare. This is not the place for a knot whose behavior under high loads is to repeatedly roll. The double fisherman is the tried-and-true knot for tying a cord into a loop that must be able to withstand a high load, because it tightens under loading, an evidently desirable characteristic.


billl7


Jun 10, 2013, 5:15 AM
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Re: [jt512] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
The EDK is basically a crappy knot whose weaknesses happen to not matter very much for joining rappel ropes, because rappel ropes don't need to withstand large loads. Additionally, the EDK has a unique low profile that makes it less likely to get stuck while pulling rappel ropes. But, if subjected to large loads, the EDK rolls repeatedly, and unless tied with long tails (recommended 18 inches long in climbing rope), the knot can roll off the ends of the rope, in which case, RIP. These characteristics make the EDK a good knot for joining rappel ropes, but not much else, save clipping your approach shoes to your harness.

A multipitch belay anchor should be able to withstand a factor-2 fall with a safety margin to spare. This is not the place for a knot whose behavior under high loads is to repeatedly roll. The double fisherman is the tried-and-true knot for tying a cord into a loop that must be able to withstand a high load, because it tightens under loading, an evidently desirable characteristic.

Excellent summary about the EDK.


jmeizis


Jun 10, 2013, 5:30 AM
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Re: [jberk] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Yeah, six inches is enough. If you're concerned then adding a backup isn't a bad idea. As has been pointed out it will roll at relatively low loads. So do clove hitches. Know the limits of your system. If the knot rolling would cause catastrophic failure then use a different knot.


billl7


Jun 10, 2013, 5:46 AM
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Re: [jmeizis] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
I tie my cordalettes exclusively with single EDK's in 6 and 7 mil nylon cord .... As has been pointed out it will roll at relatively low loads. So do clove hitches. Know the limits of your system. If the knot rolling would cause catastrophic failure then use a different knot.

Much of our rigging systems for climbing only have the strength / redundancy / safety factor that we build into them. Often, individual pieces / parts area not all that far from failure in a hard lead fall. A hard "lead fall" includes someone being at the end of their anchor tether, above the anchor, slipping, and falling onto the anchor.

Beginners should be wary of handicapping one leg of the rigging by incorporating a poor knot.

Bill L


jberk


Jun 10, 2013, 8:22 AM
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EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Thanks everyone for all of your amazing feedback and help. I am going to only use the EDK backed up with an overhand only in low load/rappel situations due to its susceptibility to rolling and stick with this method http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85CPr8c as suggested. Thank once again Smile!!


cervicornis


Jun 10, 2013, 9:10 AM
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Re: [jmeizis] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
Yeah, six inches is enough. If you're concerned then adding a backup isn't a bad idea. As has been pointed out it will roll at relatively low loads. So do clove hitches. Know the limits of your system. If the knot rolling would cause catastrophic failure then use a different knot.

By definition, clove hitches do not roll, and it is probably a myth that they slip under high loads. I recently tested this myself using a retired piece of rope, a tree, and my truck.


Partner rgold


Jun 10, 2013, 9:58 AM
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Re: [cervicornis] EDK Anchor [In reply to]
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Right---clove hitches don't roll. And whether they slip or not is a matter of some contention.

In any case, the mention of clove hitches is irrelevant in the current context because, when used to anchor a belayer, there is no end to pull through a slipping hitch and cause a catastrophe. The hitch just slips, if indeed that does happen, and would absorb fall energy, so such a result is not only not a problem, it might actually be a potential benefit.

The tests I've seen suggest that clove hitches do not slip in dynamic ropes but might slip a little in static ropes. Jim Ewing tested a clove hitch used as a tie-in in a UIAA drop test and it failed completely. Fox guides publicized some tests years ago that suggested significant slippage, but no one has been able to replicate those results and the data has since been lost or suppressed, leading to the conclusion that those tests were seriously flawed.

Given the inferiority of the EDK as a general joining knot and the fact that the no-knot cordelette rigging method is superior anyway, there doesn't seem to be any reason to use an EDK as a cordelette knot.

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