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UpToTheOzone


Jul 3, 2013, 11:09 PM
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What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from?
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Falling rocks? A straight downwards impact to the top of the head if you are not looking up? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if I'm leading, does wearing a helmet protect me from anything? I wear a BD something or other that is a thin plastic shell. Maybe there is some protection if I were to invert on a fall and hit the back of my head? Someone help me here. I'm just thinking that a side impact would not be protected in any way shape or form


meanandugly


Jul 4, 2013, 3:33 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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I have survived rock fall, large chunks of ice, my head making impacts.....5 helmets broken and able to walk away every time. I am sold on using the product. Sure its a thin layer of plastic and won't save you from everything that might be thrown your way, but getting a brain injury that puts you in diapers from a rock the size of your thumb doesn't seem worth not wearing it. It like a seatbelt, you're more likely to survive an incident with it.
Oh, and those who will state the 'one off' incidents that it caused more harm that good are the idiots who are just looking for a reason not to wear it. If you don't want to than don't, but don't make shit up about why you don't. My two rule are 1)I wear it and 2)if you don't I don't climb with you.


acorneau


Jul 4, 2013, 5:09 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Yes, a helmet is designed to protect your head. Either something hits your head (falling rock, etc.) or your head hits something (bash your head on the wall).

I've heard many folks say that a helmet is only good for falling rocks, however in my experience I've seen many more people hit their head against the wall than get hit by a falling objects. Luckily all those folks were wearing helmets and ended up fine.

I used to be like a lot of people and not want to wear my helmet, but when I witnessed a good friend bash the back of his head against the wall in a relatively short penduluming lead fall I knew I needed to make it a standard part of my climbing gear.

[edit for spelling]


(This post was edited by acorneau on Jul 4, 2013, 3:19 PM)


Gmburns2000


Jul 4, 2013, 6:28 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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UpToTheOzone wrote:
Falling rocks? A straight downwards impact to the top of the head if you are not looking up? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if I'm leading, does wearing a helmet protect me from anything? I wear a BD something or other that is a thin plastic shell. Maybe there is some protection if I were to invert on a fall and hit the back of my head? Someone help me here. I'm just thinking that a side impact would not be protected in any way shape or form

Depends on the helmet. Helmets with harnesses in them are designed to protect against objects from above. The design deflects objects as opposed to absorbs impact. These helmets tend to last after impact as a result of this (i.e. - they can handle multiple impacts). The down side is that, as far as I know, most, if not all, of these helmets are poor for side impact or protecting the back of the neck in the case of an upside down / backward fall.

Foam helmets are designed absorb the impact and don't deflect object very well. They are better at side or upside down falls because the design allows for the helmet to wrap around these areas of the head. They are poor for multiple impacts, however. After a good impact, it's a good idea to get a new helmet.

Choosing which helmet is appropriate for you depends on the style of climbing and the location.


granite_grrl


Jul 4, 2013, 6:32 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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I couldn't find it in my brief search, but if you look hopefully there's a study out there that does a comparison of helmets, including side impact.

I did find this which is interesting, but it just tells you about the basic types of helmets out there:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/...lmet%20Guidebook.pdf

I think if you choose to wear a helmet of not you should be aware that they have limitations. I personally have been in a bad fall where I hit my head.....I'm pretty sure the helmet did nothing. But this was the front my my head, where a helmet is probably the least effective. Side and back impact should be better protected with most helmets out there.


Kartessa


Jul 4, 2013, 7:24 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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What you should be asking: "have you ever come away from a day of climbing, regretting that you wore a helmet?"


walkonyourhands


Jul 4, 2013, 8:02 AM
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UpToTheOzone wrote:
Falling rocks? A straight downwards impact to the top of the head if you are not looking up? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if I'm leading, does wearing a helmet protect me from anything? I wear a BD something or other that is a thin plastic shell. Maybe there is some protection if I were to invert on a fall and hit the back of my head? Someone help me here. I'm just thinking that a side impact would not be protected in any way shape or form

UIAA 106:
http://www.theuiaa.org/...106_helmets_2009.pdf

EN 12492
http://www.satrappeguide.com/EN12492.php

Surely, Jim Titt is the man you're waiting for to reply to this thread but meanwhile you can check the requirements in these docs.

That said, I've always wondered when manufacturers start advertising potential advantages of foam helmets for fall protection.


Partner robdotcalm


Jul 4, 2013, 9:12 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
What you should be asking: "have you ever come away from a day of climbing, regretting that you wore a helmet?"

Good comment, but there are times when I've been sorry I've worn a helmet. Two days ago I was climbing a chimney in Boulder Canyon and I could not make the exit move with my helmet on. I took it off. When my second came up, I lowered a sling and hauled up her helmet and mine. When I started the route, I looked at the exit, which appeared wide enough that the helmet would not be an issue. I was wrong.

r.c


(This post was edited by robdotcalm on Jul 4, 2013, 10:15 AM)


billl7


Jul 4, 2013, 9:41 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Helped in this accident - impact is noticable if watch slow mo:

Rap accident in Rubio Canyon; 60' fall

(Granted, mistakes were made that led to the accident.)

Once things are in motion, it's too late to put it on.

Bill L


Gmburns2000


Jul 4, 2013, 10:04 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
What you should be asking: "have you ever come away from a day of climbing, regretting that you wore a helmet?"

Good comment, but there times when I've been sorry I've worn a helmet. Two days ago I was climbing a chimney in Boulder Canyon and I could not make the exit move with my helmet on. I took it off. When my second came up, I lowered a sling and hauled up her helmet and mine. When I started the route, I looked at the exit, which appeared wide enough that the helmet would not be an issue. I was wrong.

r.c

Yes, and it is possible to hang yourself with a helmet. A chimney would be a good place to do it, too.


potreroed


Jul 4, 2013, 10:26 AM
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I've taken a few short falls where I hit my head hard enuff to see stars. Glad I was wearing a helmet.

I've also used the lip of my helmet to hold me in place while I rested my arms and was then able to finish the pitch without falling.


JimTitt


Jul 4, 2013, 11:33 AM
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Re: [walkonyourhands] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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walkonyourhands wrote:
UpToTheOzone wrote:
Falling rocks? A straight downwards impact to the top of the head if you are not looking up? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if I'm leading, does wearing a helmet protect me from anything? I wear a BD something or other that is a thin plastic shell. Maybe there is some protection if I were to invert on a fall and hit the back of my head? Someone help me here. I'm just thinking that a side impact would not be protected in any way shape or form

UIAA 106:
http://www.theuiaa.org/...106_helmets_2009.pdf

EN 12492
http://www.satrappeguide.com/EN12492.php

Surely, Jim Titt is the man you're waiting for to reply to this thread but meanwhile you can check the requirements in these docs.

That said, I've always wondered when manufacturers start advertising potential advantages of foam helmets for fall protection.

Me? I worn a helmet once in the last 15 years. The protection they offer from impacts is so pathetic compared with the normal race helmets Iエm used to I canエt be bothered (and I donエt fall of much anyway) and the impact protection from falling objects doesnエt seem much related to the size of the rocks I play around on.
There are other ways to protect oneself such as donエt stand around chatting at the bottom of the cliff when bumblies are going off route, donエt follow incompetent parties on long routes, belay under nice overhangs and so on.
Wear a hat or not, Iエve no real opinion but one should have no illusions it will keep you alive when you ab off the end of the rope or when a fridge-block comes down the mountain.


lkeegan


Jul 4, 2013, 1:22 PM
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I climb in an area with a lot of lose rock. I have personally knocked a block the size of a cooler on my belayer (it hit her knees) and I know someone (personally, though he doesn't remember it) who got hit by a basketball sized rock by a girl climbing above him and he got hit smack on the helmet and lost 2 inches of height (crushed vertebra) and survived with only a few stitches to the head from the plastic of his helmet cutting him when it broke (and lots of rehab).

Those are 2 reasons why I always wear my helmet. Oh, and I've seen someone flip upside down because he got his leg caught on the rope and hit his head on the rock, but was able to sit up and finish leading the route with no problems.

So 3 reasons why I wear a helmet.

Also, I drew pretty pictures on mine, so I wear it as a fashion accessory (okay, thats maybe a lie, but I did draw pictures on it)


walkonyourhands


Jul 4, 2013, 2:06 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
walkonyourhands wrote:
UpToTheOzone wrote:
Falling rocks? A straight downwards impact to the top of the head if you are not looking up? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if I'm leading, does wearing a helmet protect me from anything? I wear a BD something or other that is a thin plastic shell. Maybe there is some protection if I were to invert on a fall and hit the back of my head? Someone help me here. I'm just thinking that a side impact would not be protected in any way shape or form

UIAA 106:
http://www.theuiaa.org/...106_helmets_2009.pdf

EN 12492
http://www.satrappeguide.com/EN12492.php

Surely, Jim Titt is the man you're waiting for to reply to this thread but meanwhile you can check the requirements in these docs.

That said, I've always wondered when manufacturers start advertising potential advantages of foam helmets for fall protection.

Me? I worn a helmet once in the last 15 years. The protection they offer from impacts is so pathetic compared with the normal race helmets Iエm used to I canエt be bothered (and I donエt fall of much anyway) and the impact protection from falling objects doesnエt seem much related to the size of the rocks I play around on.
There are other ways to protect oneself such as donエt stand around chatting at the bottom of the cliff when bumblies are going off route, donエt follow incompetent parties on long routes, belay under nice overhangs and so on.
Wear a hat or not, Iエve no real opinion but one should have no illusions it will keep you alive when you ab off the end of the rope or when a fridge-block comes down the mountain.

I was thinking about your knowledge of standards and the like, but you delivered anyway!


maldaly


Jul 4, 2013, 5:29 PM
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For a helmet to get the CE or UIAA certifications they have to pass three basic tests, one for top impact and penetration, one for side impact and one for strap configuration and strength.

Suspended test with plastic helmets usually fare well in the top impact and penetration tests but barely pass the side impact test. Foam helmets flip it around and pass the side impact tests with flying colors and barely pass the top penetration tests.

Most injuries from falling rock are from the top and most that occur during a fall are side and back blows.

So you decide; are you more likely to be in a falling rock situation or a falling situation? As fas as I know, there are no suspended helmets with a significant foam "ring" surrounding the head. Im not sure why, other than the geek factor.

Climb safe,
Mal


kf8mo


Jul 4, 2013, 9:51 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Depends on the helmet. Helmets with harnesses in them are designed to protect against objects from above. The design deflects objects as opposed to absorbs impact...

Foam helmets are designed absorb the impact and don't deflect object very well...

That neatly captures the difference between my climbing and kayaking helmets, and my bike helmet. The risks are different so the designs are different.

I'm surprised no on this thread has mentioned the best reason to wear one: because you're belaying. A rock no bigger than half your fist, dislodged from above, can KO the belayer.The climber is then up the proverbial S*** Creek, sans paddle. Yes, the rock could hit you somewhere else and injure you, but "ow, my clavicle is broken" does not leave the climber in the position that "uh oh, I seem to be unconscious here..." does.


(This post was edited by kf8mo on Jul 4, 2013, 9:53 PM)


rsmillbern


Jul 4, 2013, 10:07 PM
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For me iit depends on what and where I am climbing. Frankenjura clipping bolts on solid stone... probably not. In the Alps on longer climbs, or ice climbing, with out a doubt.

I have caught rocks on the helmet belaying a few times, and once a softball sized rock fell about 3 meters clipping me on the helmet (knock off by some kind of goat!). I have been very happy to have one a few times. Never had one and wished I didn't.


Syd


Jul 5, 2013, 3:35 AM
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lkeegan wrote:
I climb in an area with a lot of lose rock. I have personally knocked a block the size of a cooler on my belayer (it hit her knees) ...

As Jim says, there are other ways to protect yourself. In an area such as you describe, if you are climbing single pitch routes, it would make a lot of sense to use an indirect belay, with a ground anchor some distance form the base of the route, safe from rock fall. A direct belay would increase the load on the belayer in a fall. Most commonly, belayers think that standing underneath the climber is a good thing to do, often with claims of dynamic belaying to help the climber in falls. Dynamic belaying is a myth IMHO. Testing here http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Simulation_of_Climbing_and_Rescue_Belays.pdf shows: "Only a small amount of belayer lifting is helpful (~20 cm). More lifting increases fall distance and does not decrease peak force. " Importantly, this is a passive movement rather than an active dynamic belay in response to a fall. It is impossible to time a dynamic belay sufficiently accurately, and to jump sufficiently high (rather than being pulled upwards), to have any useful effect. For this reason it makes sense, to belay away from the base of the cliff when possible.


meanandugly


Jul 5, 2013, 3:48 AM
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Syd wrote:
lkeegan wrote:
I climb in an area with a lot of lose rock. I have personally knocked a block the size of a cooler on my belayer (it hit her knees) ...

As Jim says, there are other ways to protect yourself. In an area such as you describe, if you are climbing single pitch routes, it would make a lot of sense to use an indirect belay, with a ground anchor some distance form the base of the route, safe from rock fall. A direct belay would increase the load on the belayer in a fall. Most commonly, belayers think that standing underneath the climber is a good thing to do, often with claims of dynamic belaying to help the climber in falls. Dynamic belaying is a myth IMHO. Testing here http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Simulation_of_Climbing_and_Rescue_Belays.pdf shows: "Only a small amount of belayer lifting is helpful (~20 cm). More lifting increases fall distance and does not decrease peak force. " Importantly, this is a passive movement rather than an active dynamic belay in response to a fall. It is impossible to time a dynamic belay sufficiently accurately, and to jump sufficiently high (rather than being pulled upwards), to have any useful effect. For this reason it makes sense, to belay away from the base of the cliff when possible.

Agreed about taking a proactive approch to avoid rock fall, but this is also what a helmet is for. There is still no reasons not to wear one.


acorneau


Jul 5, 2013, 4:22 AM
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Syd wrote:
As Jim says, there are other ways to protect yourself. In an area such as you describe, if you are climbing single pitch routes, it would make a lot of sense to use an indirect belay, with a ground anchor some distance form the base of the route, safe from rock fall. A direct belay would increase the load on the belayer in a fall. Most commonly, belayers think that standing underneath the climber is a good thing to do, often with claims of dynamic belaying to help the climber in falls. Dynamic belaying is a myth IMHO. Testing here http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Simulation_of_Climbing_and_Rescue_Belays.pdf shows: "Only a small amount of belayer lifting is helpful (~20 cm). More lifting increases fall distance and does not decrease peak force. " Importantly, this is a passive movement rather than an active dynamic belay in response to a fall. It is impossible to time a dynamic belay sufficiently accurately, and to jump sufficiently high (rather than being pulled upwards), to have any useful effect. For this reason it makes sense, to belay away from the base of the cliff when possible.


No, the reason to belay from below the first piece/bolt is because the farther away from the wall you are the easier it is to be pulled off your stance and be dragged across the ground.

I demonstrate this all the time when teaching lead lessons in the gym. I can drag someone closer to me by pulling hand over hand on their rope but I can't lift them off the ground.

Of course, as the climber gets farther up the climb you have more leeway to come away from the wall due to increased friction of the system.

But don't take my word for it...




JimTitt


Jul 5, 2013, 9:46 AM
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maldaly wrote:
For a helmet to get the CE or UIAA certifications they have to pass three basic tests, one for top impact and penetration, one for side impact and one for strap configuration and strength.

Suspended test with plastic helmets usually fare well in the top impact and penetration tests but barely pass the side impact test. Foam helmets flip it around and pass the side impact tests with flying colors and barely pass the top penetration tests.

Most injuries from falling rock are from the top and most that occur during a fall are side and back blows.

So you decide; are you more likely to be in a falling rock situation or a falling situation? As fas as I know, there are no suspended helmets with a significant foam "ring" surrounding the head. Im not sure why, other than the geek factor.

Climb safe,
Mal

Certainly a curiosity and another example of where modern standards arenエt "better" than the old ones. When I started climbing the helmets available in the UK used the same standard as motorcyle helmets and offered vastly more protection than any modern polystyrene take-away box. For sure they were heavy but so was everything else those days so who cared, one just got stronger and I canエt remember failing on a route because of the weight of my helmet.
My brother still drags out his Joe Brown/Snowdon Mouldings hat when the going gets tough and whoエs to blame him?
It is of course far better to avoid needing a helmet altogether by taking note of ones surroundings and keeping out of the line of fire at all times.


maldaly


Jul 5, 2013, 10:03 AM
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JimTitt, it was conversations with Hugh Banner in the last years of his life that opened my eyes to the helmet/certification conflict. HB Climbing had just bought Snowdon Mouldings and he was trying to figure out a way to modernize or improve the state of the art in climbing helmet design. The basic concept would be a helmet like the Petzl Ecrin Roc with a foam donut around the rim to protect from side blows. If I remember correctly the old MSR helmet utilized that concept and, yes, it was heavy and made you look like a super-dork, but I'm pretty sure it was the best around. Mostly rescue guys wore it.

Sadly, Hugh passed away before he was able to prototype anything but the idea is still out there.

Mal


bearbreeder


Jul 5, 2013, 11:59 AM
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Re: [Syd] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Syd wrote:

As Jim says, there are other ways to protect yourself. In an area such as you describe, if you are climbing single pitch routes, it would make a lot of sense to use an indirect belay, with a ground anchor some distance form the base of the route, safe from rock fall. A direct belay would increase the load on the belayer in a fall. Most commonly, belayers think that standing underneath the climber is a good thing to do, often with claims of dynamic belaying to help the climber in falls. Dynamic belaying is a myth IMHO. Testing here http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Simulation_of_Climbing_and_Rescue_Belays.pdf shows: "Only a small amount of belayer lifting is helpful (~20 cm). More lifting increases fall distance and does not decrease peak force. " Importantly, this is a passive movement rather than an active dynamic belay in response to a fall. It is impossible to time a dynamic belay sufficiently accurately, and to jump sufficiently high (rather than being pulled upwards), to have any useful effect. For this reason it makes sense, to belay away from the base of the cliff when possible.

how many whippers do you take ...

anyone who climbs on lead at their limit, and whips 5-10+ times per session wont think dynamic belaying is a myth ...

and NO you dont want to belay away from the base of the wall on many instances ... if you belayed climbers who constantly whipped on lead or did so yourself you would know this ...

belay away from the wall down low can mean you can get pulled in and slammed if your climber falls at the start of the route, and can cause a decked climber ... especially if you are a lighter belayer

it can also pop gear out on trad leads

go out and take whippers ... if you dont know or because of some "RC" expertise refuse to give me a dynamic belay where appropriate ... youll break someones ankle

do you whip over and over again on whippers like these, if you didnt youd screw him up ... and yes ive seen people get hurt on this exact climb because their belayer didnt give em a dynamic belay



Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 5, 2013, 12:01 PM)


bearbreeder


Jul 5, 2013, 12:08 PM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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climbing with a helmet is one of the most basic things you can do to reduce you risk ...

of course helmets dont guarantee that youre "safe" ... and theres tons of people who id climb with who dont wear a helmet generally over those who do ...

but boinking your head is not a uncommon injury in climbing ... and even if the protection isnt perfect its better than nothing

petzl has Tales from the Edge - Helmet Close Calls

go read it ....

http://www.petzl.com/.../helmet-stories-edge
dont let any RCer make the decision for you ...

just keep in mind that the decision is that of you AND your partner ... as youll be belaying him/her ... and if you get konked out by a rock he/she will be the one dealing with it ...

Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 5, 2013, 12:09 PM)


Syd


Jul 5, 2013, 9:13 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
and NO you dont want to belay away from the base of the wall on many instances ... if you belayed climbers who constantly whipped on lead or did so yourself you would know this ...

belay away from the wall down low can mean you can get pulled in and slammed if your climber falls at the start of the route, and can cause a decked climber ... especially if you are a lighter belayer

Read my post " ... use an indirect belay, with a ground anchor some distance form the base of the route ..."

If the belayer is anchored, it is impossible to "get pulled in and slammed". Unfortunately many belayers I have seen do stand well away from the base, without an anchor, rsiking being slammed into the wall. This is probably what you are reffering to Bearbreeder.


bearbreeder


Jul 6, 2013, 11:47 AM
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if yr going to take repeated whippers on vertical-overhanging climbs i would not set up a ground redirect .... you want that dynamic belay or youll end up with smashed heels

ground redirect are a very specialized belay for when you need to RUN back to prevent your climber from decking

its not a good idea to depend on em to avoid rockfall ... as many trad routes and almost every sport route doesnt have the possibility to set em up

Tongue


Partner robdotcalm


Jul 6, 2013, 2:27 PM
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Some in this thread have mentioned never wearing a helmet. Not safe advice. Wearing a helmet is situation dependent. While it痴 true modern helmets do not provide as much protection as we would like, neither does any of our climbing gear as compromises are made balancing safety against weight and bulk.

As I mentioned upstream, I do not wear helmets in tight squeeze chimneys and tight offwidths (check my icon photograph). Otherwise, I wear a helmet unless there is a specific reason not to (very rare). I always wear them on slabs. No matter how much experience one has as a slab climber, it痴 often difficult to control the fall so that tipping over and banging one痴 head has a significant chance of occurring during a fall on slab.

Rob.calm


anonymousCoward


Jul 6, 2013, 8:31 PM
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Let me throw in my own first hand account of a helmet saving my life. I wear a skateboard style helmet that can protect against side impacts. Several years ago I took a long ass fall and got flipped upside down resulting in a severe impact to the back of my head. I was knocked out and suffered some serious head trauma, but I am quite sure that without the helmet I would have been killed.


lkeegan


Jul 6, 2013, 8:47 PM
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Syd wrote:
lkeegan wrote:
I climb in an area with a lot of lose rock. I have personally knocked a block the size of a cooler on my belayer (it hit her knees) ...

As Jim says, there are other ways to protect yourself. In an area such as you describe, if you are climbing single pitch routes, it would make a lot of sense to use an indirect belay, with a ground anchor some distance form the base of the route, safe from rock fall. A direct belay would increase the load on the belayer in a fall. Most commonly, belayers think that standing underneath the climber is a good thing to do, often with claims of dynamic belaying to help the climber in falls. Dynamic belaying is a myth IMHO. Testing here http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Simulation_of_Climbing_and_Rescue_Belays.pdf shows: "Only a small amount of belayer lifting is helpful (~20 cm). More lifting increases fall distance and does not decrease peak force. " Importantly, this is a passive movement rather than an active dynamic belay in response to a fall. It is impossible to time a dynamic belay sufficiently accurately, and to jump sufficiently high (rather than being pulled upwards), to have any useful effect. For this reason it makes sense, to belay away from the base of the cliff when possible.


I agree with being proactive, but my second example was someone who was starting up a popular climb with someone climbing another popular climb that finishes over top of the climb he was on (both traverse). And he got hit while climbing by another climber.

Also, theres only so much you can do to be proactive when we climb in a place where entire climbs just fall down (as recently happened in Whites Bluff)


JimTitt


Jul 7, 2013, 2:23 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
Some in this thread have mentioned never wearing a helmet. Not safe advice.

Rob.calm

Plenty of people chose not to wear a helmet but I canエt see anywhere in the thread that they are advising anyone else to follow their example. It is a personal choice.


iknowfear


Jul 7, 2013, 7:55 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
Some in this thread have mentioned never wearing a helmet. Not safe advice.

Rob.calm

Plenty of people chose not to wear a helmet but I canエt see anywhere in the thread that they are advising anyone else to follow their example. It is a personal choice.

helmets and Melons test by climbing on ukclimbing

cheers,
ps: not directed directly at jim...
[edited to correctly attribute source]


(This post was edited by iknowfear on Jul 7, 2013, 10:28 AM)


meanandugly


Jul 7, 2013, 10:32 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJhngt_wS2Y
Sorry, never learned to make things clicky


(This post was edited by meanandugly on Jul 7, 2013, 10:33 AM)


Kartessa


Jul 7, 2013, 3:43 PM
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meanandugly wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJhngt_wS2Y
Sorry, never learned to make things clicky


(This post was edited by Kartessa on Jul 7, 2013, 3:43 PM)


meanandugly


Jul 7, 2013, 3:56 PM
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Thanks


Partner robdotcalm


Jul 8, 2013, 9:35 AM
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meanandugly wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJhngt_wS2Y
Sorry, never learned to make things clicky

Here's how.
{url} your link {/url}

and replace { by [. Also there's the url icon at the bottom of posting box. Just click on that.

r.c


meanandugly


Jul 8, 2013, 9:50 AM
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Thanks


jorgegonzalez


Jul 8, 2013, 11:58 AM
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Avid readers of this site will agree with me that amongst us are a lot of hard headed MFrs who really don't need a helmet, no amount of anecdotal evidence or studies will change their mind. They are vastly superior to us mere mortals. Get over it.


Partner robdotcalm


Jul 8, 2013, 2:10 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
Some in this thread have mentioned never wearing a helmet. Not safe advice.

Rob.calm

Plenty of people chose not to wear a helmet but I canエt see anywhere in the thread that they are advising anyone else to follow their example. It is a personal choice.

The example set by illustrious climbers influences the behavior of others.

Anyway, it's possible that wearing a helmet in itself influences behavior, i.e., climbers take more risks if wearing a helmet, which would negate the benefits. This was discussed at length in the thread

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2144316

Rob.calm


curt


Jul 8, 2013, 3:21 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
walkonyourhands wrote:
UpToTheOzone wrote:
Falling rocks? A straight downwards impact to the top of the head if you are not looking up? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if I'm leading, does wearing a helmet protect me from anything? I wear a BD something or other that is a thin plastic shell. Maybe there is some protection if I were to invert on a fall and hit the back of my head? Someone help me here. I'm just thinking that a side impact would not be protected in any way shape or form

UIAA 106:
http://www.theuiaa.org/...106_helmets_2009.pdf

EN 12492
http://www.satrappeguide.com/EN12492.php

Surely, Jim Titt is the man you're waiting for to reply to this thread but meanwhile you can check the requirements in these docs.

That said, I've always wondered when manufacturers start advertising potential advantages of foam helmets for fall protection.

Me? I worn a helmet once in the last 15 years. The protection they offer from impacts is so pathetic compared with the normal race helmets Iエm used to I canエt be bothered (and I donエt fall of much anyway) and the impact protection from falling objects doesnエt seem much related to the size of the rocks I play around on.

There are other ways to protect oneself such as donエt stand around chatting at the bottom of the cliff when bumblies are going off route, donエt follow incompetent parties on long routes, belay under nice overhangs and so on.

Wear a hat or not, Iエve no real opinion but one should have no illusions it will keep you alive when you ab off the end of the rope or when a fridge-block comes down the mountain.

I've offered very similar opinions in the past and agree with everything you have said here. If history is any judge, you'll probably catch quite a bit of flack from those who claim that anybody climbing without a helmet is an idiot, etc.

One additional thing. To my knowledge, no climbing helmet that is certified under EN 12492 alone is designed to protect a climber from hitting his head in a fall. EN 12492 tests helmets with a maximum falling mass of 5kg falling a distance of 1/2 meter.

Curt


jt512


Jul 8, 2013, 11:57 PM
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acorneau wrote:


Ithought that picture was long lost. How did you find it?


meanandugly


Jul 9, 2013, 5:20 AM
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curt wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
walkonyourhands wrote:
UpToTheOzone wrote:
Falling rocks? A straight downwards impact to the top of the head if you are not looking up? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but if I'm leading, does wearing a helmet protect me from anything? I wear a BD something or other that is a thin plastic shell. Maybe there is some protection if I were to invert on a fall and hit the back of my head? Someone help me here. I'm just thinking that a side impact would not be protected in any way shape or form

UIAA 106:
http://www.theuiaa.org/...106_helmets_2009.pdf

EN 12492
http://www.satrappeguide.com/EN12492.php

Surely, Jim Titt is the man you're waiting for to reply to this thread but meanwhile you can check the requirements in these docs.

That said, I've always wondered when manufacturers start advertising potential advantages of foam helmets for fall protection.

Me? I worn a helmet once in the last 15 years. The protection they offer from impacts is so pathetic compared with the normal race helmets Iエm used to I canエt be bothered (and I donエt fall of much anyway) and the impact protection from falling objects doesnエt seem much related to the size of the rocks I play around on.

There are other ways to protect oneself such as donエt stand around chatting at the bottom of the cliff when bumblies are going off route, donエt follow incompetent parties on long routes, belay under nice overhangs and so on.

Wear a hat or not, Iエve no real opinion but one should have no illusions it will keep you alive when you ab off the end of the rope or when a fridge-block comes down the mountain.

I've offered very similar opinions in the past and agree with everything you have said here. If history is any judge, you'll probably catch quite a bit of flack from those who claim that anybody climbing without a helmet is an idiot, etc.

One additional thing. To my knowledge, no climbing helmet that is certified under EN 12492 alone is designed to protect a climber from hitting his head in a fall. EN 12492 tests helmets with a maximum falling mass of 5kg falling a distance of 1/2 meter.

Curt

I agree that most helmets only meet those sub-par standards, but they are a choice and you are not an idiot for not choosing to wear. I choose to wear one because of the experiences I have survived. And I choose to not climb with those who don't wear one because having an unconscious belayer, although interesting, is something I choose to try and avoid in the future (he was out of the line of fire and got hit by a random chunk of ice).
But, you are an idiot if you think they will save you from those impacts they were never designed to take and you are an idiot if you think its ok to be in the line of fire just because you have one on.


acorneau


Jul 9, 2013, 5:23 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Ithought that picture was long lost. How did you find it?


Google image search for "belayer magazine".

Cool


lkeegan


Jul 9, 2013, 11:09 AM
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This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/


csproul


Jul 9, 2013, 11:39 AM
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lkeegan wrote:
This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/
Sounds kind of like ignoring the much bigger problem to me. How about actually ensuring that your carabiner is clipped to the quickdraw and not to a piece of plastic. THAT would have prevented this accident. Seems to me that a helmet here is of secondary importance! Perhaps in the context of a minor climbing with an organization it might be a good idea to require helmets, but then again maybe they should be thinking about some bigger issues.


JimTitt


Jul 9, 2013, 11:51 AM
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lkeegan wrote:
This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/

Thinking a helmet is going to help when you take a 25m groundfall is about as optimistic as thinking a rubber band is going to prevent the fall in the first place.


kf8mo


Jul 15, 2013, 8:26 PM
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rsmillbern wrote:
... once a softball sized rock fell about 3 meters clipping me on the helmet (knock off by some kind of goat!)...

Out where my wife and I climb (Canadian Rockies), goats and mountain sheep are the #1 head hazard. We've been bombarded by rocks from overhead critters on several occasions. We wear helmets for the same reason construction workers wear hard hats: because small hard high-velocity objects fall on us.


Mhleitch


Jul 16, 2013, 6:57 AM
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There was an accident the other day where they said a helmet likely saved the climbers life. Even though he needed a rescue, it sounds like be will be alright.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2631053;forum_view=recent_posts;


Rudmin


Jul 18, 2013, 1:54 AM
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Kartessa wrote:
What you should be asking: "have you ever come away from a day of climbing, regretting that you wore a helmet?"

Certainly. They are hot and sweaty. It's the reason I almost always take mine off as soon as I feel like it's not necessary. They are also really annoying to fit into a pack. Sometime I really wish I had space for an extra sandwich in my bag.

I don't think anyone enjoys wearing a helmet. You wear it because at some point you decide that the hassle and discomfort is worth the extra protection. Or because you're partner won't climb with you without one.


(This post was edited by Rudmin on Jul 18, 2013, 1:57 AM)


Gmburns2000


Jul 18, 2013, 7:10 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
lkeegan wrote:
This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/

Thinking a helmet is going to help when you take a 25m groundfall is about as optimistic as thinking a rubber band is going to prevent the fall in the first place.

You obviously know a heck of a lot more about this than I do, but I can't imagine a helmet hurts in this situation, and I can't imagine the impact of a person's head on the ground without a helmet is the same or even less than the same fall with a hard(ish) protective covering.

Does the helmet help absolutely 0%? Does it help 1%? For me, with a helmet, the person's head doesn't hit the ground directly until the helmet is crushed or breaks apart. The way that I understand it there's a buffer there. OK, I can imagine if the helmet causes a person's head to hit at an awkward angle, or if the plastic cuts into the skin. I can see that happening, but I can't see it having zero affect on the overall impact.

There was an accident a few years ago with a popular Boston climber where her partner dislodged a rock that knocked her unconscious. She was belaying with a grigri, so that probably saved her partner's life (because it locked as opposed a tube-style device that would have cratered him). I honestly can't remember if she was wearing a helmet or not. But if she was / were, would the helmet have lessened her injuries?

If the answer is no, then why aren't we seeing an outcry of why helmets are a complete and utter scam?

It's an honest question. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm also not a statistician an academic researcher, so a lay man's answer is preferred. Thanks...

Greg


Rudmin


Jul 18, 2013, 6:11 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
lkeegan wrote:
This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/

Thinking a helmet is going to help when you take a 25m groundfall is about as optimistic as thinking a rubber band is going to prevent the fall in the first place.

You obviously know a heck of a lot more about this than I do, but I can't imagine a helmet hurts in this situation, and I can't imagine the impact of a person's head on the ground without a helmet is the same or even less than the same fall with a hard(ish) protective covering.

Does the helmet help absolutely 0%? Does it help 1%? For me, with a helmet, the person's head doesn't hit the ground directly until the helmet is crushed or breaks apart. The way that I understand it there's a buffer there. OK, I can imagine if the helmet causes a person's head to hit at an awkward angle, or if the plastic cuts into the skin. I can see that happening, but I can't see it having zero affect on the overall impact.

There was an accident a few years ago with a popular Boston climber where her partner dislodged a rock that knocked her unconscious. She was belaying with a grigri, so that probably saved her partner's life (because it locked as opposed a tube-style device that would have cratered him). I honestly can't remember if she was wearing a helmet or not. But if she was / were, would the helmet have lessened her injuries?

If the answer is no, then why aren't we seeing an outcry of why helmets are a complete and utter scam?

It's an honest question. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm also not a statistician an academic researcher, so a lay man's answer is preferred. Thanks...

Greg

I think his point was that if you die of arterial bleeding, a collapsed lung and a caved in skull or you just die of bleeding, a collapsed lung and brain hemorrhaging, you are still dead.

Beyond a certain impact, even if a helmet provides some protection, it still has no effect on the outcome.


Colinhoglund


Jul 18, 2013, 8:47 PM
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Rudmin wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
lkeegan wrote:
This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/

Thinking a helmet is going to help when you take a 25m groundfall is about as optimistic as thinking a rubber band is going to prevent the fall in the first place.

You obviously know a heck of a lot more about this than I do, but I can't imagine a helmet hurts in this situation, and I can't imagine the impact of a person's head on the ground without a helmet is the same or even less than the same fall with a hard(ish) protective covering.

Does the helmet help absolutely 0%? Does it help 1%? For me, with a helmet, the person's head doesn't hit the ground directly until the helmet is crushed or breaks apart. The way that I understand it there's a buffer there. OK, I can imagine if the helmet causes a person's head to hit at an awkward angle, or if the plastic cuts into the skin. I can see that happening, but I can't see it having zero affect on the overall impact.

There was an accident a few years ago with a popular Boston climber where her partner dislodged a rock that knocked her unconscious. She was belaying with a grigri, so that probably saved her partner's life (because it locked as opposed a tube-style device that would have cratered him). I honestly can't remember if she was wearing a helmet or not. But if she was / were, would the helmet have lessened her injuries?

If the answer is no, then why aren't we seeing an outcry of why helmets are a complete and utter scam?

It's an honest question. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm also not a statistician an academic researcher, so a lay man's answer is preferred. Thanks...

Greg

I think his point was that if you die of arterial bleeding, a collapsed lung and a caved in skull or you just die of bleeding, a collapsed lung and brain hemorrhaging, you are still dead.

Beyond a certain impact, even if a helmet provides some protection, it still has no effect on the outcome.

A couple years ago I was climbing on Yam in the Canadian rockies. The rope knocked of a large flake. (think 5cm thick and 30cmx40cm length and width) My helmet deflected the blow away from my head, so my shoulder got the worst of it. Definitely be dead or severely maimed without my helmet. Been up the cliff many times since.

My helmet may not protect against all impacts, but Im sure glad my helmet did protect from that 'certain impact'.


JimTitt


Jul 18, 2013, 11:46 PM
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Re: [Rudmin] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Rudmin wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
lkeegan wrote:
This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/

Thinking a helmet is going to help when you take a 25m groundfall is about as optimistic as thinking a rubber band is going to prevent the fall in the first place.

You obviously know a heck of a lot more about this than I do, but I can't imagine a helmet hurts in this situation, and I can't imagine the impact of a person's head on the ground without a helmet is the same or even less than the same fall with a hard(ish) protective covering.

Does the helmet help absolutely 0%? Does it help 1%? For me, with a helmet, the person's head doesn't hit the ground directly until the helmet is crushed or breaks apart. The way that I understand it there's a buffer there. OK, I can imagine if the helmet causes a person's head to hit at an awkward angle, or if the plastic cuts into the skin. I can see that happening, but I can't see it having zero affect on the overall impact.

There was an accident a few years ago with a popular Boston climber where her partner dislodged a rock that knocked her unconscious. She was belaying with a grigri, so that probably saved her partner's life (because it locked as opposed a tube-style device that would have cratered him). I honestly can't remember if she was wearing a helmet or not. But if she was / were, would the helmet have lessened her injuries?

If the answer is no, then why aren't we seeing an outcry of why helmets are a complete and utter scam?

It's an honest question. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm also not a statistician an academic researcher, so a lay man's answer is preferred. Thanks...

Greg

I think his point was that if you die of arterial bleeding, a collapsed lung and a caved in skull or you just die of bleeding, a collapsed lung and brain hemorrhaging, you are still dead.

Beyond a certain impact, even if a helmet provides some protection, it still has no effect on the outcome.

Thatエs about it I guess, the test requires the force to the head is kept below a level which causes brain injury, once youエre over that then I guess you need to talk to a neurosurgeon about whether 1% (or whatever) less massive brain trauma is better.
If I fall 25m the helmet has to absorb 1,000 times the energy the test involves so it seems resonable to assume a bit of styrofoam isnエt going to help in any way whatsoever.


rocknice2


Jul 19, 2013, 4:51 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Jim, I agree with the argument that you can't count on a helmet saving you in a 25m ground fall.
Do you agree that a helmet will lessen the impact of a fall? Any fall! There is no hope in the extreme cases but what about the marginal ones?
Could make a difference between, a headache and an ambulance ride, walking out of a crag and being carried out..... A lesser blow to the head may be enough to save some lives or at least a few brain cells.

All kinds of shit happens. There have been cases where climbers have decked from deadly heights and lived to tell about it. On the flip side people have died slipping in the bathtub.


Gmburns2000


Jul 19, 2013, 6:38 AM
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Re: [Rudmin] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Rudmin wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
lkeegan wrote:
This is what helmets can potentially protect you from:


In reply to:
的t was a fatal blow to the head, if he had more protection maybe we would not be here today to mourn him. After what happened, institutions should make helmets mandatory, at least for minors. Much like they have for the kids who practice skiing and snowboarding. "

http://gripped.com/...o-traversa-accident/

Thinking a helmet is going to help when you take a 25m groundfall is about as optimistic as thinking a rubber band is going to prevent the fall in the first place.

You obviously know a heck of a lot more about this than I do, but I can't imagine a helmet hurts in this situation, and I can't imagine the impact of a person's head on the ground without a helmet is the same or even less than the same fall with a hard(ish) protective covering.

Does the helmet help absolutely 0%? Does it help 1%? For me, with a helmet, the person's head doesn't hit the ground directly until the helmet is crushed or breaks apart. The way that I understand it there's a buffer there. OK, I can imagine if the helmet causes a person's head to hit at an awkward angle, or if the plastic cuts into the skin. I can see that happening, but I can't see it having zero affect on the overall impact.

There was an accident a few years ago with a popular Boston climber where her partner dislodged a rock that knocked her unconscious. She was belaying with a grigri, so that probably saved her partner's life (because it locked as opposed a tube-style device that would have cratered him). I honestly can't remember if she was wearing a helmet or not. But if she was / were, would the helmet have lessened her injuries?

If the answer is no, then why aren't we seeing an outcry of why helmets are a complete and utter scam?

It's an honest question. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm also not a statistician an academic researcher, so a lay man's answer is preferred. Thanks...

Greg

I think his point was that if you die of arterial bleeding, a collapsed lung and a caved in skull or you just die of bleeding, a collapsed lung and brain hemorrhaging, you are still dead.

Beyond a certain impact, even if a helmet provides some protection, it still has no effect on the outcome.

I understand that completely. To me, however, the head houses the most important organ. It's easier to fix the others than it is the brain, long-term anyway, and it seems easier to protect the head than it is to protect the lungs, heart, etc.


Gmburns2000


Jul 19, 2013, 6:43 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
Jim, I agree with the argument that you can't count on a helmet saving you in a 25m ground fall.
Do you agree that a helmet will lessen the impact of a fall? Any fall! There is no hope in the extreme cases but what about the marginal ones?
Could make a difference between, a headache and an ambulance ride, walking out of a crag and being carried out..... A lesser blow to the head may be enough to save some lives or at least a few brain cells.

I think this was my point. I've been careless on a mantle under a roof before and knocked my head. With the helmet it was a mere annoyance (though enough to stagger me for a second). I can imagine that without it I would have been off.

Of course, my example here goes back to Jim's thought that paying attention is more important. I don't disagree with that, but I do think that there can be a difference between a concussion and long-term brain trauma from falling rock, for example.


lena_chita
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Jul 19, 2013, 7:10 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
Jim, I agree with the argument that you can't count on a helmet saving you in a 25m ground fall.
Do you agree that a helmet will lessen the impact of a fall? Any fall! There is no hope in the extreme cases but what about the marginal ones?
Could make a difference between, a headache and an ambulance ride, walking out of a crag and being carried out..... A lesser blow to the head may be enough to save some lives or at least a few brain cells.

I think this was my point. I've been careless on a mantle under a roof before and knocked my head. With the helmet it was a mere annoyance (though enough to stagger me for a second). I can imagine that without it I would have been off.

Weirdly enough, I have ONLY knocked my head in cases like this when I was wearing a helmet. Never without a helmet. The helmet extends quite considerably beyond the top of your head, you are not used to your head being quite that big, so you duck, but don't duck low enough.

I am convinced that in those few cases when I hit my head on the roof, against the side of the chimney, etc., while wearing a helmet, even though the impact was definitely noticeable, I simply would not have hit my head at all, if i weren't wearing it.

Gmburns2000 wrote:
Of course, my example here goes back to Jim's thought that paying attention is more important. I don't disagree with that, but I do think that there can be a difference between a concussion and long-term brain trauma from falling rock, for example.

I wear a helmet in situations where i feel that things beyond my control (falling rocks, etc.) could be an issue. I can be very very careful, but if I am on the route, and the rock falls on me, I do not have an ability to anticipate, duck, move out of the way, etc.

I have never had a rock fall on me in this scenario. But then again, I rarely climb anything other that single-pitch overhanging sport climbs. So i rarely wear a helmet. but I do have one, and I have worn it when I felt it was warranted.

But I am not wearing a helmet to protect me against inverting during the fall, and I am not wearing a helmet to protect me against the ground fall, because those are the cases where I feel that my own actions and my belayer's actions would protect me better than a helmet.


Gmburns2000


Jul 19, 2013, 7:47 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
Jim, I agree with the argument that you can't count on a helmet saving you in a 25m ground fall.
Do you agree that a helmet will lessen the impact of a fall? Any fall! There is no hope in the extreme cases but what about the marginal ones?
Could make a difference between, a headache and an ambulance ride, walking out of a crag and being carried out..... A lesser blow to the head may be enough to save some lives or at least a few brain cells.

I think this was my point. I've been careless on a mantle under a roof before and knocked my head. With the helmet it was a mere annoyance (though enough to stagger me for a second). I can imagine that without it I would have been off.

Weirdly enough, I have ONLY knocked my head in cases like this when I was wearing a helmet. Never without a helmet. The helmet extends quite considerably beyond the top of your head, you are not used to your head being quite that big, so you duck, but don't duck low enough.

I am convinced that in those few cases when I hit my head on the roof, against the side of the chimney, etc., while wearing a helmet, even though the impact was definitely noticeable, I simply would not have hit my head at all, if i weren't wearing it.

Yeah, I think that's true, too. I once knocked myself off a slab when the brim of my helmet brushed and snagged just enough on a crystal. It was kind of funny, to be honest. Probably wouldn't have happened if I didn't have it on. I wore it because I wasn't confident in the overall quality of the rock above and / or people at the top.

In reply to:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Of course, my example here goes back to Jim's thought that paying attention is more important. I don't disagree with that, but I do think that there can be a difference between a concussion and long-term brain trauma from falling rock, for example.

I wear a helmet in situations where i feel that things beyond my control (falling rocks, etc.) could be an issue. I can be very very careful, but if I am on the route, and the rock falls on me, I do not have an ability to anticipate, duck, move out of the way, etc.

I have never had a rock fall on me in this scenario. But then again, I rarely climb anything other that single-pitch overhanging sport climbs. So i rarely wear a helmet. but I do have one, and I have worn it when I felt it was warranted.

But I am not wearing a helmet to protect me against inverting during the fall, and I am not wearing a helmet to protect me against the ground fall, because those are the cases where I feel that my own actions and my belayer's actions would protect me better than a helmet.

I never wear one at Rumney even though I have seen a clearly-marked X block come flying off like an unscrewed hold at a gym. Still, it's not necessary there in my opinion. I also have a harness helmet, so for Rumney it wouldn't protect against side or backward falls anyway.

I almost always wear one in the 'Gunks or any other multi-pitch route unless it's a squeeze chimney, which is the type of climbing I prefer.


TradEddie


Jul 19, 2013, 9:38 AM
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What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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Thanks everyone, since my seatbelt won't protect me from a head-on collision with an 18 wheeler at interstate speeds, I can now happily stop using it at all.

Can anyone point to a single serious climbing accident that was made worse by a helmet?

TE


lena_chita
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Jul 19, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Re: [TradEddie] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
Thanks everyone, since my seatbelt won't protect me from a head-on collision with an 18 wheeler at interstate speeds, I can now happily stop using it at all.

Can anyone point to a single serious climbing accident that was made worse by a helmet?

TE

No I can't.

Moreover, I know that several of my friends with young children have their young kids wear helmets while scrambling around the base of the cliff. I think it is a great idea, and we should expand it to adults and adopt wearing helmets at all times, because you never know when something might fall on you, or when you might fall. In fact, years ago, I was sitting in an armchair at home, nursing my then-2-months-old daughter, when the light fixture spontaneously detached itself from the ceiling and crashed not even a foot away from me (true story!)

O.K., joking aside, wearing a helmet comes under category of "it is the RIGHT THING to do". I will ever ever tell someone who is wearing a helmet to take the helmet off. The closest I would come to that is telling the person that their helmet is not properly adjusted and/or not fitting them right. Something I see with surprising frequency, btw.


JimTitt


Jul 19, 2013, 11:07 AM
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Re: [TradEddie] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
Thanks everyone, since my seatbelt won't protect me from a head-on collision with an 18 wheeler at interstate speeds, I can now happily stop using it at all.

Can anyone point to a single serious climbing accident that was made worse by a helmet?

TE

No, but in the reverse situation:- "Paul Pritchard (a fairly well known British climber) says in his book that his neurosurgeon commented that had he been wearing a helmet it would have likely made the damage to his brain worse, as through cushioning the impact of the rock it would have made it a widespread, traumatic injury rather than a localized, focal one."

Sure, wear a helmet, it might help. Just donエt be under any illusion that by wearing it you are invincible, the protection they offer is far less than many imagine and the things that might land on your head far heavier than you would like or the standard issuers catered for.


curt


Jul 19, 2013, 11:14 AM
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Re: [TradEddie] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
Thanks everyone, since my seatbelt won't protect me from a head-on collision with an 18 wheeler at interstate speeds, I can now happily stop using it at all...

I was wondering how long it would be before someone made an off-point attempt at an analogy like this. Based on previous helmet threads, I suppose it was inevitable.

Curt


Gmburns2000


Jul 19, 2013, 2:27 PM
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Re: [TradEddie] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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TradEddie wrote:
Thanks everyone, since my seatbelt won't protect me from a head-on collision with an 18 wheeler at interstate speeds, I can now happily stop using it at all.

Can anyone point to a single serious climbing accident that was made worse by a helmet?

TE

I can't, but just as someone died a couple of years ago by hanging from his/her gear sling, it can happen with a helmet, too.


healyje


Jul 20, 2013, 1:19 AM
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Re: [UpToTheOzone] What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from? [In reply to]
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UpToTheOzone wrote:
What does a climbing helmet actually protect you from?

Yourself for the most part.


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