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Tito Traversa
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funk


Jul 5, 2013, 11:33 AM
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Tito Traversa
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8a.nu reports:

Tito Traversa - Rest in Peace

Tito Claudio Traversa died today after having fought very hard for three days at the Grenoble hospital, after a groundfall from some 17 meters in Orpierre. He was together with his gym's sport group, without his parents. A couple of days before, the 12 year old did his fourth 8b+.

"Our little big Tito is now an Angel and he gave his organs to let other kids live. Forever in his mum's and dad's heart".


bearbreeder


Jul 5, 2013, 1:01 PM
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from the comments ...

n a rough translation from the french website– it says that they had recently purchased new quickdraws, and that a young girl friend of the climber had improperly attached the carabiners to the dogbone, i.e. had attached the biner only to the plastic ‘anti-flip’ piece instead of the actual dogbone.

8 of the 12 draws that the climber was on before the fall were mounted that way….

http://climbingnarc.com/...sly-injured-in-fall/

from rock and ice ...

Italian climbing prodigy Tito Claudio Traversa has passed away after being hospitalized from a 50-foot groundfall. Grimper.com reports that Traversa was warming up on a 5.10d sport climb in Orpierre, France, during a climbing trip with his local gym team, which included 10 kids and three adults. Apparently, the quickdraws used to equip the route were slung incorrectly, which resulted in total failure and a groundfall. Details regarding the improper usage of the quickdraws are still vague, however, a rough translation of Grimper's report notes that the slings on the draws were attached to the carabiners incorrectly. The report indicates that the slings were improperly attached to the plastic/rubber device used to keep the carabiners from turning on the slings. Therefore these mechanisms were the only attachment between the sling and the carabiner and are apparently what failed as they are not intended to hold a fall. Although four correctly strung quickdraws were on the route, these quickdraws were unfortunately placed too low to save Traversa. Traversa was airlifted to Grenoble, France, after the accident where he was hospitalized. He died today, after fighting for his life for three days.

http://www.rockandice.com/...ies-in-climbing-fall


jumpingrock


Jul 6, 2013, 12:39 AM
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Tragedy :-(


majid_sabet


Jul 6, 2013, 7:49 AM
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from

http://climbingnarc.com/...sly-injured-in-fall/

This report in French by Grimper seems to indicate that a number of quick draws he was using were improperly slung1 causing them to fail resulting in a fall from some 60 feet off the deck. He is now fighting for his life in a Grenoble hospital in a medically induced coma.

It goes without saying that we are hoping all the best for him and his family in this difficult time.

Update: According to this article in an Italian newspaper Tito has passed away. Sad, sad story.

Possibly as demonstrated in this video ↩

http://vimeo.com/4138205


bearbreeder


Jul 6, 2013, 11:52 AM
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its likely that they arent the problem with open slings

sport climbers rarely use open slings but rather dogbones ...

the articles do say that there were quickdraws and dogbones ...

it seems that alot of people on the intrawebs are jumping to the conclusion that its one of those "elastic band" problems on slings ... this is doubtful

the likely scenario is that someone clipped the biner only to the rubber part of the quickdraw dogbone


lena_chita
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Jul 6, 2013, 7:00 PM
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Such a tragedy! Rest in peace, Tito!

Having replaced the dogbones on my draws with PETZL dogbones, I have to say that those rubber pieces come loosely attached to the dogbone, but putting the carabiner in requires FIRST tearing off the little flimsy pieace of rubber that holds the gasket the the dogbone, and then some hard wriggling and wiggling, because the rubber gasket is meant to be tight. Even knowing it, the first one I tried to assemble I had to pause, look at the old draws, and confirm that this is how it was supposed to go, because it seemed like the biner just wasn't going to fit through.

I can see how someone inexperienced could possibly encounter this problem and think, no, it is not meant to go this way, b/c it just doesn't seem to fit, and then slide it in the "easy way", which is the wrong way.

This is specific to PETZL dogbones though, other companies have the rubber piece inside the dogbone, with no possibility of attaching it wrong.

This is what I mean: PETZL--the rubber is on the outside, the rubber gasket, when shipped, is LOSELY attached to the dogbone by really thin strip of rubber (first image). So it is possible to slip the biner through the rubber part only, when first assembling the draw, even though you can clearly see how it is meant to be, if you have an old draw in front of you:


Black diamond-- the rubber is on the inside of the dogbone, you can't just put the biner through only rubber by accident:



geezergecko


Jul 7, 2013, 4:17 AM
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Attachments: DeathDraw.jpg (14.9 KB)


redlude97


Jul 7, 2013, 1:35 PM
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I saw that once at a crag also...sometimes i wonder about people. Dunno how else petzl can include the piece that would be more idiotproof


lena_chita
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Jul 7, 2013, 6:22 PM
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Here's a video of how it would be possible to put a draw together in a wrong way, demonstrated with new-design PETZL draws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSaTOIlMb4


skelldify


Jul 8, 2013, 7:45 AM
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Alright, I'll be the first to say it:

This is a case of tragedy happening because someone isn't knowledgeable enough to inspect the gear they're using.

It's great to see kids pushing grades, but they just aren't old enough to understand how safety systems work. Thus, they are left trusting their safety system to someone else.

Unfortunately, kids also aren't very capable of determining if someone else is trustworthy.


TradEddie


Jul 8, 2013, 4:33 PM
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What a tragedy for all involved. My deepest sympathies to the family.
While there are obviously inexperience issues, I feel compelled to say that those pictures look like an accident just waiting to happen. I'm surprised that anyone at Petzl could ever have thought that way of attaching the keeper was a good idea.

TE


Syd


Jul 8, 2013, 4:47 PM
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skelldify wrote:

This is a case of tragedy happening because someone isn't knowledgeable enough to inspect the gear they're using.

I think it comes down to the parent's responsibility. Were the parents climbers ?

There's a climbing gym near here that I feel is a place with an accident waiting to happen, yet dozens of kids climb there in school groups. Parents seem to assume that others will be responsible for their children. Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.


lena_chita
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Jul 9, 2013, 5:50 AM
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Syd wrote:
skelldify wrote:

This is a case of tragedy happening because someone isn't knowledgeable enough to inspect the gear they're using.

I think it comes down to the parent's responsibility. Were the parents climbers ?

There's a climbing gym near here that I feel is a place with an accident waiting to happen, yet dozens of kids climb there in school groups. Parents seem to assume that others will be responsible for their children. Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.

Seriously? The names i want to call you are not appropriate for this thread, so I'll refrain. Did you even read the report? Tito was out climbing with the gym climbing team,parents were not present.

Please don't tell me that in 18 years you are NEVER going to send your kid to school, or to camp, or to a birthday party, or to a sports event, or let him go on a school trip!

You are by his side 24-7, no sleeping? You hired an investigator to do a thorough background check on every pre-school teacher and camp counselor?

WTF, really?

Yes, someone screwed up big-time, and a talented young climber who was in their charge is tragically dead as a result. But to blame the parents in this case is ridiculous, unless you are suggesting that the parents are to blame for every accident that happens in every sport that their kids are involved in, because they signed up the kids for that activity.

Why don't we ban kid participation in rock climbing until they are 18yo? And while we are at it, throw in swimming (they can drown!!!), gymnastics, soccer (you can be stabbed to death by a referee! you can be decapitated! your knee scrape can turn septic and kill you, too) and every other sport.


bearbreeder


Jul 9, 2013, 9:26 AM
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http://www.grimper.com/...UdwIIvT_Sw0.facebook

google translate ...

Despite the ongoing investigation to determine responsibilities, but for the sake of information, the prosecutor handling the case kindly let filter these pictures as a warning for such a tragedy can not happen again. Here is the installation of slings-unimaginable-made by a group of teenagers, which led to the fall of Tito. In order to comply with the investigation, the installation of the draws was conducted by way of example with components that are not implicated in the case. For the death of Tito Traversa not be in vain, we can only remind everyone to be vigilant, the belief in a material more reliable never to take precedence over systematic verification of it and its good use.




(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 9, 2013, 9:26 AM)


rocknice2


Jul 9, 2013, 9:40 AM
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They even have the bent gate on the wrong side.


redlude97


Jul 9, 2013, 10:45 AM
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sounds like that is a recreation and not the actual draws although the translation is a little rough.


acorneau


Jul 9, 2013, 11:10 AM
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"After a lot of speculation over the weekend, according to Grimper the police have released an image of a quickdraw slung like those that were responsible for the tragic death of Tito Traversa last week. As you can see, the only thing holding the top biner to the dog bone is the rubber band which is not meant to hold a climber’s weight. According to reports, 8 of Tito’s 12 quick draws were slung like this and they happened to be the last 8 he used which is what led to his fatal ground fall."

http://climbingnarc.com/...-traversas-accident/


skelldify


Jul 9, 2013, 11:25 AM
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The parents are responsible for selecting a capable climbing coach or instructor. They are also responsible for allowing their child to go on this trip. In this way, they are responsible indirectly. They chose an incompetent instructor to be responsible for their child in a safety-intensive sport. They also allowed their child to go on a trip with too few instructors.

YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!!

Also, the sports you mention do not require a child to understand a complicated device or safety system. How about ATV racing or hunting? These are safety-oriented activities that children participate in. The difference is that they are typically done one-on-one with a parent, or adviser trusted by a parent.

It is only with the advent of climbing "teams" that children are thrown into a large group to participate in a dangerous activity in the charge of someone who may not be capable.


(This post was edited by skelldify on Jul 9, 2013, 11:28 AM)


ghisino


Jul 9, 2013, 1:33 PM
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skelldify wrote:
a trip with too few instructors..

I disagree.

I am italian but work as a professional climbing instructor in france, where the common ratio is up to 12 children for 1 instructor.

(12=4 teams of 3. One climber, one belayer, one "backup belayer". We esteem ourselves capable of supervising efficiently 4 teams)

of course to run things safely with such numbers you need a very good sense of organization, the ability to obtain the respect of the rules you lay down, good knowledge of the place, and a very alert mind.

the only downside is that safety might go at the expense of children's spontaneity, as you somehow need to turn them into "belay soldiers"...I had a parent complaining once about this.

the training to get the full certificate consists of about 800 hours over at least one year, including both theoretical information and supervised practice.

by the way, one of the most crucial professional rules we are taught is to NEVER make a professional use of an equipement that is not your own and you haven't personally inspected and approved.

unfortunately italy does not have anything similar...as an improvised or badly trained instructor, even one kid might be one kid too many...


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 9, 2013, 1:40 PM)


lena_chita
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Jul 9, 2013, 1:42 PM
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skelldify wrote:
The parents are responsible for selecting a capable climbing coach or instructor. They are also responsible for allowing their child to go on this trip. In this way, they are responsible indirectly. They chose an incompetent instructor to be responsible for their child in a safety-intensive sport. They also allowed their child to go on a trip with too few instructors.

YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!!

Also, the sports you mention do not require a child to understand a complicated device or safety system. How about ATV racing or hunting? These are safety-oriented activities that children participate in. The difference is that they are typically done one-on-one with a parent, or adviser trusted by a parent.

It is only with the advent of climbing "teams" that children are thrown into a large group to participate in a dangerous activity in the charge of someone who may not be capable.

How about go-cart racing? Kids do it all the time. Going to an overnight camp with a lake nearby?

There is only so much a parent can do, to ascertain that the person they are entrusting their child to is actually trustworthy. Sure, you have an option of never letting your kids participate in anything, but I don't think you would have wanted to be that child, and neither should you be that kind of parent.

Gym climbing is a much more mainstream activity in Europe, and so are climbing teams. And kids are not dying right and left (thank god!). But accidents happen. Sometimes people fall victims to their own mistakes, and sometimes the mistake of one person results in a death of another. Also, perfectly trustworthy, perfectly competent, perfectly sane and responsible adults can sometimes slip, make mistakes, or get distracted. Kids drown in bathtubs two feet away from their watchful parents, as well as in lakes, rivers, and pools. Kids choke to death in front of watchful grandparents. Kids fall off the stairs, off the playgrounds, etc. etc. Life just isn't 100% safe.


In this case, the victim of the accident was a young and high-profile climber, but I do believe this this could have happened to a competent adult climber, too (not putting the draws together wrong, but climbing on a draw that was put together in a wrong way, without realizing it.)


Have you watched the video I linked upthread? Look at the final result of the draw put together and tell me with 100% certainty that you and every generally-responsible adult climber you know couldn't have possibly clipped a draw like that, ever. The rubber gasket covers the sling part completely in the fully-assembles state, you cannot actually see the sling and tell that it is not assembled correctly.

Here are some scenarios that happen every day at sport crags everywhere:

--you walk in, there are draws hanging on the wall, they appear to be someone's marked draws, not project draws, and a group of climbers nearby, but nobody on the route with draws. You ask the group of climbers if it is their draws and whether it is O.K. to climb on them. They say sure, and you climb... Sure, you check the draws visually as you clip them. Maybe run your finger on the rope-side draw to make sure it is not sharp. But if it is a hard-for-you route, how thorough is your inspection?

-- you get to the crag, there is a rope hanging on one route, climbers nearby, nobody climbing that route. You ask if they would be o.k. if you pulled the rope. They tell you that they were hoping to toprope the route later, so could you please climb on their rope and put it back up for them? You say yes. The rope looks new, they are climbing on it, you trust that they haven't dipped it in battery acid.

--you are about to climb a route, when someone walks in and asks if you are cleaning the draws after you climb. You say yes. They ask if it would be possible to give you their draws to put on bolts 5 and 6, as you clean the route. You say, sure, why don't you give me two of your draws for the anchors, too, it will make the cleaning faster.

Regardless of whether you personally ever do anything like that, it is a common behavior. And people are trusting that the perfect strangers have not screwed up.


lena_chita
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Jul 9, 2013, 3:41 PM
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skelldify wrote:
YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!!

Please tell me why this is not attributable to swimming?

The bottom line to me is that is you feel like this, you should be speaking up every time someone posts here and mentions their kid being on a climbing team. If you don't do this in general, then it is cruel and hypocritical to say that the parents are responsible for this death.

The person who put the draws together wrong is responsible. The person who is in charge of the climbing team equipment, who allowed an incompetent person to put the draws together, and didn't double-check, is responsible.

The parents are right now probably blaming themselves as they grieve. But no, they are not responsible for their child's death in this case. They had a very reasonable expectation of basic climbing gear being in proper working order on a gym-organized trip.


joeforte


Jul 9, 2013, 4:38 PM
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This is truly sad. My deepest condolences to the family. This is a huge loss to the climbing community, and a big eye opener.

Mistakes can happen to any of us. I know I've made mine, and I'm lucky to have survived them. I think we can all say the same.

I'd rather not point the blame at anyone in a situation like this, but I can't help but ask myself some questions when I read about it, wondering how it could have been avoided.

Yes, draw failure caused him to deck, but from what I understand, he died days later due to his head injury. This makes me ask... was he wearing a helmet? Would a helmet have saved him? Who knows. Of all of the pictures of him online, I cannot find any pictures of him wearing one. This is not his fault, or his parents. It is OUR fault. We set the standards. Look in all of our magazines. Helmets are used in nearly all other "extreme", "adventure", or fast-paced sports where there is a risk of a traumatic brain injury. Why aren't they more common in ours?

I see a lot of pictures of kids leading and I ask myself... why aren't they wearing a helmet? Is it uncool? Too heavy? Do their mentors wear one? Maybe the climbing community needs to set a better example.


ensonik


Jul 9, 2013, 6:24 PM
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Syd wrote:
Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.

As lena mentioned earlier in the thread, that's silly. This sounds like the innocence of a young parent with a very young child. Cute but not realistic.


jomagam


Jul 9, 2013, 6:36 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Seriously? The names i want to call you are not appropriate for this thread, so I'll refrain. Did you even read the report? Tito was out climbing with the gym climbing team,parents were not present.

Please don't tell me that in 18 years you are NEVER going to send your kid to school, or to camp, or to a birthday party, or to a sports event, or let him go on a school trip!

You are by his side 24-7, no sleeping? You hired an investigator to do a thorough background check on every pre-school teacher and camp counselor?

WTF, really?

Yes, someone screwed up big-time, and a talented young climber who was in their charge is tragically dead as a result. But to blame the parents in this case is ridiculous, unless you are suggesting that the parents are to blame for every accident that happens in every sport that their kids are involved in, because they signed up the kids for that activity.

Why don't we ban kid participation in rock climbing until they are 18yo? And while we are at it, throw in swimming (they can drown!!!), gymnastics, soccer (you can be stabbed to death by a referee! you can be decapitated! your knee scrape can turn septic and kill you, too) and every other sport.

+1. How about riding a bicycle ? Professionals have died going less than 20 mph.

This was a horrible and shitty accident, but I've seen adults mess up so many times that you can't automatically blame this on him being a kid. I admit that I've never thoroughly inspected others' draws when I first climbed on them. I've seen pictures of many incorrectly put together draws since the accident and some of them are really not easy to spot.


jomagam


Jul 9, 2013, 6:44 PM
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My guess is that he wasn't wearing a helmet in most pics because he was doing 45 degree overhanging routes. It really makes no sense in that scenario, especially if the first couple of draws are pre-clipped, like I see it in most videos.

I'm guessing that future designers of dog bones will try to make assembling the quick draw incorrectly harder.


JAB


Jul 10, 2013, 1:08 AM
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joeforte wrote:
Yes, draw failure caused him to deck, but from what I understand, he died days later due to his head injury. This makes me ask... was he wearing a helmet? Would a helmet have saved him? Who knows. Of all of the pictures of him online, I cannot find any pictures of him wearing one. This is not his fault, or his parents. It is OUR fault. We set the standards. Look in all of our magazines. Helmets are used in nearly all other "extreme", "adventure", or fast-paced sports where there is a risk of a traumatic brain injury. Why aren't they more common in ours?

I see a lot of pictures of kids leading and I ask myself... why aren't they wearing a helmet? Is it uncool? Too heavy? Do their mentors wear one? Maybe the climbing community needs to set a better example.

Apparently he was not wearing a helmet. I totally agree that on gym organised trips, wearing a helmet should be mandatory. What people do on their own trips is up to them, but on an organised trip (where parents expect certain safety standards), I don't see why they shouldn't require helmets to be used.


billl7


Jul 10, 2013, 5:23 AM
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Re: [Syd] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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Syd wrote:
I think it comes down to the parent's responsibility. Were the parents climbers ?

.... Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.
I have 5 children. 4 are past that 'magical' age of 18 ... and it ain't all that magical.

If you haven't started letting them be responsible for their safety by about 8 years old, they will likely be relatively unprepared when they are 18. Parenting irresponsibly cuts both ways.

But I will say, for me, there are a number of activities that I do for which I don't encourage even my adult children to do. Smile They are totally on their own for making those choices. Examples include climbing and bicycle-commuting to school/work.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jul 10, 2013, 5:24 AM)


jktinst


Jul 10, 2013, 8:14 AM
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One significant correction to make in the google translation posted by Bearbreeder is that the demo draws shown in the linked article were assembled by one of the teenagers from Tito’s climbing group (not by "a group of teenagers"). This was done to show how the wrong configuration that caused his fall was actually put together and to show how the "right" configuration should have been.

Of course, as Bearbreeder pointed out and as everyone here will instantly have seen, although the top configuration is way more wrong, neither of these configurations is "right" since the rubber attachment was placed on the straight-gate biner instead of the bent-gate one. This certainly calls into question the level of gear-safety competence of both the kid who supplied the draws and the climbing website that published them without any comment on the error.

(edited for minor grammatical error)


(This post was edited by jktinst on Jul 10, 2013, 10:21 AM)


sonso45


Jul 10, 2013, 8:16 AM
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I am a parent and my children are all adults. I still pray for their safety daily. They don't climb as much as I do but I think they can have fun and be safe. I can't imagine how Tito's parents must be feeling. My condolences.

This tragedy underscores the need to check your gear, knot, belayer, etc. Climbing is complex and potentially fatal as we have just seen. Everyone in the party should at least glance to see what is going up the rock. This reinforces my double check with my belayer. If you depend for your life on the equipment you carry up the face, it better be good to go.

This youngster paid for his mistake. Let's hope this message spreads to all those that take up this sport.


lena_chita
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Jul 10, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Andrew Bisharat said it well here:

http://eveningsends.com/...tito-traversa-death/


joeforte


Jul 10, 2013, 7:48 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Andrew Bisharat said it well here:

http://eveningsends.com/...tito-traversa-death/


Very well said indeed.


Syd


Jul 10, 2013, 8:37 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
skelldify wrote:
The parents are responsible for selecting a capable climbing coach or instructor. They are also responsible for allowing their child to go on this trip. In this way, they are responsible indirectly. They chose an incompetent instructor to be responsible for their child in a safety-intensive sport. They also allowed their child to go on a trip with too few instructors.

YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!!

Also, the sports you mention do not require a child to understand a complicated device or safety system. How about ATV racing or hunting? These are safety-oriented activities that children participate in. The difference is that they are typically done one-on-one with a parent, or adviser trusted by a parent.

It is only with the advent of climbing "teams" that children are thrown into a large group to participate in a dangerous activity in the charge of someone who may not be capable.

How about go-cart racing? Kids do it all the time. Going to an overnight camp with a lake nearby?

There is only so much a parent can do, to ascertain that the person they are entrusting their child to is actually trustworthy. Sure, you have an option of never letting your kids participate in anything, but I don't think you would have wanted to be that child, and neither should you be that kind of parent.

Gym climbing is a much more mainstream activity in Europe, and so are climbing teams. And kids are not dying right and left (thank god!). But accidents happen. Sometimes people fall victims to their own mistakes, and sometimes the mistake of one person results in a death of another. Also, perfectly trustworthy, perfectly competent, perfectly sane and responsible adults can sometimes slip, make mistakes, or get distracted. Kids drown in bathtubs two feet away from their watchful parents, as well as in lakes, rivers, and pools. Kids choke to death in front of watchful grandparents. Kids fall off the stairs, off the playgrounds, etc. etc. Life just isn't 100% safe.


In this case, the victim of the accident was a young and high-profile climber, but I do believe this this could have happened to a competent adult climber, too (not putting the draws together wrong, but climbing on a draw that was put together in a wrong way, without realizing it.)


Have you watched the video I linked upthread? Look at the final result of the draw put together and tell me with 100% certainty that you and every generally-responsible adult climber you know couldn't have possibly clipped a draw like that, ever. The rubber gasket covers the sling part completely in the fully-assembles state, you cannot actually see the sling and tell that it is not assembled correctly.

Here are some scenarios that happen every day at sport crags everywhere:

--you walk in, there are draws hanging on the wall, they appear to be someone's marked draws, not project draws, and a group of climbers nearby, but nobody on the route with draws. You ask the group of climbers if it is their draws and whether it is O.K. to climb on them. They say sure, and you climb... Sure, you check the draws visually as you clip them. Maybe run your finger on the rope-side draw to make sure it is not sharp. But if it is a hard-for-you route, how thorough is your inspection?

-- you get to the crag, there is a rope hanging on one route, climbers nearby, nobody climbing that route. You ask if they would be o.k. if you pulled the rope. They tell you that they were hoping to toprope the route later, so could you please climb on their rope and put it back up for them? You say yes. The rope looks new, they are climbing on it, you trust that they haven't dipped it in battery acid.

--you are about to climb a route, when someone walks in and asks if you are cleaning the draws after you climb. You say yes. They ask if it would be possible to give you their draws to put on bolts 5 and 6, as you clean the route. You say, sure, why don't you give me two of your draws for the anchors, too, it will make the cleaning faster.

Regardless of whether you personally ever do anything like that, it is a common behavior. And people are trusting that the perfect strangers have not screwed up.


Well said skelldify.

Lena and skelldify, do you have kids ? How old are they ?

Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?


(This post was edited by Syd on Jul 10, 2013, 8:42 PM)


creektrails


Jul 10, 2013, 8:46 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Andrew Bisharat said it well here:

http://eveningsends.com/...tito-traversa-death/
This is my first post and I first of all want to thank rockclimbing for this forum. I am 46 and new to rock climbing. I started in order to do something fun and exciting with my 14 year old son. We started in a gym and now we climb at the red river gorge which is fairly close drive to us.
I am trying to read everything I can on safety and accidents in order to help prevent myself or more importantly my son from suffering a bad accident.
I have learned much from this particular forum. Most of all tying knots when abseiling, wearing a helmet and double checking everything.
This is a great sport and if what was mentioned in the above article is true that this young man was climbing for the first time without his father the tears welled up in my eyes are for his father. OF COURSE it was not his fault but he willl lay blame on himself and for this I feel the worst. I am sorry such a young life was lost but accidents do befall all. My condolences go out to his family, my heart breaks for them. I would also like to thank all of the members who comment on tragedys such as this. Through the hashing out of reasons why come answers and occasionally wisdom. Thanks


billl7


Jul 10, 2013, 9:44 PM
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Syd wrote:
Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?

I think you are confusing the idea of

a) a parent being responsible for their own actions in parenting a minor

with

b) a parent being responsible for their teenager's actions.

For good or for bad, those are two very different things as reflected in the state laws where I live.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Jul 10, 2013, 9:44 PM)


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 7:55 AM
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Re: [billl7] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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Climb with children that lead climb? Please weigh in:

http://www.easypolls.net/...ba08e4b084575d8553be


(This post was edited by climb2core on Jul 11, 2013, 7:57 AM)


JasonsDrivingForce


Jul 11, 2013, 8:34 AM
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This situation really hit home for me. My 5 year old son was the one who got me into climbing. I had no experience with climbing before that. I simply was terrified of heights my entire life.

Over the last 4 years my son’s climbing has progressed rapidly partly because he was inspired to push his limits by young climbers like Tito. He also has been inspired to climb hard outdoors. However, I have absolutely no outdoor climbing experience so I couldn’t make that happen without the help of our climbing gym instructors.

We have been to our local climbing spot(Pilot Mountain) so many times that I can’t count them all. Each time has been either with a guide(Fox Mountain Guides) or with his climbing gym instructors. And on every occasion I have gone with him, only allowed him to top rope, and made him wear a helmet at all times.

I know all of the other kids ask why his dad is going on the trip when no one else’s dad is there. I simply tell them that it is because I am a photographer and I take pictures for the gym. The real reason is that I simply want to be the one responsible for his safety. I double check everything I can with him and I make him sit out when he doesn’t make safety his number one goal.

I know at some point I will have to just trust that I have instilled the importance of safety enough in him to let him go on these trips without me. However, at 9 years old it is still hard for me to come to grips with that.

He has also had several opportunities to climb at the Red on lead with experienced and consciousness parents and other experienced young climbers. I have turned them all down because I just wasn’t confident enough in his leading and my abilities to identify a dangerous situation because I haven’t done it before.

This incident with Tito has made me even more concerned that I wouldn’t be able to identify all of the dangerous situations that occur with lead climbing. I am not sure if I would have been able to spot that the quickdraw setup was improperly assembled. I am not accustomed to using any of the rubber stoppers like that.

That being said eventually I will have to let him have his independence. I will have to trust not only the people he goes with but I will also have to trust his own safety skills. I am not sure at what age that will be. Maybe 10, 11, or 12 years old like Tito. Perhaps sooner. Perhaps later.

All I know is that as a parent the worst nightmare I have ever had was waking up after the thought of my son falling from the anchors. I can’t imagine the suffering that Tito’s parents are going through right now. The loss of my children is my biggest fear. I only hope that I have instilled enough sense of self-preservation in them so that we don’t ever end up in a situation like this ourselves.


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Jul 11, 2013, 8:37 AM)


JasonsDrivingForce


Jul 11, 2013, 8:41 AM
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Are there any stoppers that cannot be installed incorrectly? Some of the designs I have seen so far really look like they are an accident waiting to happen.


billl7


Jul 11, 2013, 10:06 AM
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A well written post that will ring true for many of us parents.

JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
That being said eventually I will have to let him have his independence. I will have to trust not only the people he goes with but I will also have to trust his own safety skills. I am not sure at what age that will be. Maybe 10, 11, or 12 years old like Tito. Perhaps sooner. Perhaps later.

Somewhere in the above will also be conceding to his ability to assess the climb-safety skills of others. To me it was sort of like my teenage kids eventually making choices about who they drove with - as their passengers or as a passenger of someone else near their age.

Since you don't climb much, the next best to help you with future decisions might be an adult climber who knows him well in whom you can use as a sounding board.


Kartessa


Jul 11, 2013, 10:10 AM
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Syd wrote:
Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?

Way to take it to an extreme.

A parent's job is to raise their children to become smart, safe, responsible adults. You really don't know if you did it right until they have their own kids.

I'm a parent of a small child and I try to let him make his own decisions and sometimes, even his own mistakes. You can't wrap your kids in a bubble for 18 years and expect them to function the day you cut them loose. Children need to learn about themselves and the world around them, to learn about responsibility and know that while mommy and/or daddy love them, they won't always be there to hold their hand.

At 12 years old, letting your child go off with a supervised group that has had many uneventful outings before isn't irresponsible, it's letting them come into their own.


rocknice2


Jul 11, 2013, 5:41 PM
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Does anyone know who's QD they were?


bearbreeder


Jul 11, 2013, 5:48 PM
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the latest petzl instructions for the string

http://www.petzl.com/...NG_M90-PE-01A_EN.pdf



Wink


lena_chita
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Jul 12, 2013, 8:42 AM
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Syd wrote:
Lena and skelldify, do you have kids ? How old are they ?

Are there parents here who would also advocate abrogation of their responsibility for drinking, drug taking, dangerous driving, violence or vandalism by their teenage children ?

Not sure what it has to do with this thread, but yes, I do have kids. They are 14 and 10.

And I can't answer your question better than bill already did:
billl7 wrote:
I think you are confusing the idea of

a) a parent being responsible for their own actions in parenting a minor

with

b) a parent being responsible for their teenager's actions.

For good or for bad, those are two very different things as reflected in the state laws where I live.

I am responsible for teaching my kids, and I try to teach by example. They will never see me text while driving. We have discussed responsible use of alcohol, the dangers of drugs, etc. Obviously, I am modeling proper behavior there, too. I am also taking reasonable measures to make sure that I know the kids they are hanging out with, the families that those kids come from, etc. I am trying to be involved in their lives, and to be a kind of parent that my kids will feel safe confiding to, if there is a problem.

That is all I can realistically do, as a parent.


ghisino


Jul 13, 2013, 11:46 AM
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rocknice2 wrote:
Does anyone know who's QD they were?
it seems they were of a girl of tito's same age, who had just received them as a present.


shockabuku


Jul 14, 2013, 8:10 AM
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JAB wrote:
joeforte wrote:
I see a lot of pictures of kids leading and I ask myself... why aren't they wearing a helmet? Is it uncool? Too heavy? Do their mentors wear one? Maybe the climbing community needs to set a better example.

That is probably true.

JAB wrote:
Apparently he was not wearing a helmet. I totally agree that on gym organised trips, wearing a helmet should be mandatory. What people do on their own trips is up to them, but on an organised trip (where parents expect certain safety standards), I don't see why they shouldn't require helmets to be used.

Life is about choices, perhaps they choose to let the parents decide. That's what the gym where my children climb does. I sign a statement allowing them to climb without a helmet and so the gym allows them not to do that, including on outdoor trips. My children all have helmets and I encourage them to wear them when the risk is what I consider to be appropriately high as does the gym.

I don't want anyone taking any more of my choices away.


shockabuku


Jul 14, 2013, 8:18 AM
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With my children I made sure they were starting to learn these things for themselves and could demonstrate to me that they understood the important safety concepts before I let them go with others or by themselves. There isn't a "one day" in which they, and you, will be ready unless you're working toward it all the time.


Syd


Jul 16, 2013, 4:34 PM
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climb2core wrote:
Climb with children that lead climb? Please weigh in:

http://www.easypolls.net/...ba08e4b084575d8553be

This clearly shows that parents must take responsibility, at least for their kids' gear. 55% of group leaders "assume that the parent/adult of that child has sent the child with safe gear."

If so many group leaders don't check the kids' gear, it makes me wonder how well they check other aspects of safe climbing, such as tying in, belaying and the particular routes they climb.


lena_chita
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Jul 17, 2013, 8:35 AM
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Syd wrote:
climb2core wrote:
Climb with children that lead climb? Please weigh in:

http://www.easypolls.net/...ba08e4b084575d8553be

This clearly shows that parents must take responsibility, at least for their kids' gear. 55% of group leaders "assume that the parent/adult of that child has sent the child with safe gear."

If so many group leaders don't check the kids' gear, it makes me wonder how well they check other aspects of safe climbing, such as tying in, belaying and the particular routes they climb.

No offense to climb2core, but it was a silly poll, and trying to draw any conclusions from it is equally silly.


theextremist04


Jul 17, 2013, 3:03 PM
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As Bill said in reply, it will be hard for you to continue to assess safety conditions for your son. If you want an adult to talk to about it, Ron at Fox Mountain Guides might be a good choice. I know he has kids (I believe even your son's age) that do some climbing and he is extremely safety oriented as well.


anarkhos


Jul 24, 2013, 2:38 AM
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Can someone explain what Petzl is trying to elucidate in the bottom left precaution? Not to clip the rope biner to the bolt? How is this dangerous? It looks like the BD buckle coming apart in Cliffhanger.

Also, I may get flack for this, but one of the few purposes I have for these things is affixing one biner to the end of a really short sling to make a long draw, as shown in the bottom left precaution. Obviously, I have no intention of clipping the rope biner to anything except the rope, and don't see how I could do this accidentally.


lena_chita
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Jul 24, 2013, 5:21 AM
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anarkhos wrote:
Can someone explain what Petzl is trying to elucidate in the bottom left precaution? Not to clip the rope biner to the bolt? How is this dangerous? It looks like the BD buckle coming apart in Cliffhanger.

Also, I may get flack for this, but one of the few purposes I have for these things is affixing one biner to the end of a really short sling to make a long draw, as shown in the bottom left precaution. Obviously, I have no intention of clipping the rope biner to anything except the rope, and don't see how I could do this accidentally.

Assuming you are talking about the image that bearbreeder posted (I'm re-posting it below)...

the precaution is about clipping the biner that is immobilized wit ha rubber keeper to the bolt ( usually it is the rope-end biner, but the picture tells you that you shouldn't put a rubber keeper on the bolt-size biner or clip a draw with rope-end rubber keeper to the bolt.

The same picture also demonstrates the reason for this precaution. When the biner/dogbone joint on the bolt end is immobilized by the rubber keeper, it is more likely that the movement of the rope will force the dogbone and therefore the immobilized bolt-end biner to rotate, resulting in a situation where the biner is snagged or cross-loaded, and thus more easily breakable in case of a fall.






anarkhos


Jul 26, 2013, 10:29 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
Andrew Bisharat said it well here:

http://eveningsends.com/...tito-traversa-death/

It started out well enough, but the factual errors just kept piling up.

In reply to:
I don’t know anyone who has ever inspected a rack of quickdraws.

I have. But then when climbing a route with 4 bolts per 100 ft, you tend to consider the pro.

In reply to:
Look at the differences between the draw that is incorrectly racked, and the one that is correct. They look almost identical.

No they don't

In reply to:
I would’ve taken those draws, put them on my harness and not thought twice about it. And you know what? You would have too.

Nope

In reply to:
Of course, setting up the draws in that wrong configuration is an incredibly stupid error to have made, obviously one born of inexperience. It’s something I can’t possibly imagine anyone ever doing. Obviously the person who made this mistake looked at a properly racked draw, and tried to recreate what she or he saw. It was a horrible mistake. But it was also a freak mistake—something none of us could’ve ever predicted.

Petzl predicted it, and warned against it.

Also, how the person did this is far from obvious. IMO it was racked by someone fundamentally lacking in curiosity.

In reply to:
But this was an accident that could’ve happened to any of us...

Sorry, but nope. This wouldn't have happened to me. I may succumb to some other error, but climbing on another person's gear always involves at the very least a cursory look. I'm especially wary of brand new gear due to some experiences...

The bottom line is that like any dangerous activity like driving or shooting, experience counts the most (followed by attentiveness and intelligence/curiosity.)


bearbreeder


Jul 26, 2013, 11:40 AM
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anarkhos wrote:

Sorry, but nope. This wouldn't have happened to me. I may succumb to some other error, but climbing on another person's gear always involves at the very least a cursory look. I'm especially wary of brand new gear due to some experiences...

"this can never happen to me" thinking is dangerous

intraweb "experts" can rant on all they want ... but if 4 trained firefighters can miss something similar that leads to a fatality ... anyone here can as well, despite any "safer than thoult" attitude



Before the rappelling attempt, four people looked at or inspected Marovich’s rappelling gear: the spotter trainee who installed the “O” ring, Marovich, and in the helicopter a spotter, and another helitack crewperson who did a “buddy check”.

Marovich fell, unarrested, shortly after stepping out onto the helicopter skid. He was pronounced deceased about 30 minutes later.


http://wildfiretoday.com/...rappelling-fatality/

Crazy


lena_chita
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Jul 26, 2013, 12:30 PM
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Re: [anarkhos] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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anarkhos wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Andrew Bisharat said it well here:

http://eveningsends.com/...tito-traversa-death/

It started out well enough, but the factual errors just kept piling up.

In reply to:
I don’t know anyone who has ever inspected a rack of quickdraws.

I have. But then when climbing a route with 4 bolts per 100 ft, you tend to consider the pro.

In reply to:
Look at the differences between the draw that is incorrectly racked, and the one that is correct. They look almost identical.

No they don't

In reply to:
I would’ve taken those draws, put them on my harness and not thought twice about it. And you know what? You would have too.

Nope

In reply to:
Of course, setting up the draws in that wrong configuration is an incredibly stupid error to have made, obviously one born of inexperience. It’s something I can’t possibly imagine anyone ever doing. Obviously the person who made this mistake looked at a properly racked draw, and tried to recreate what she or he saw. It was a horrible mistake. But it was also a freak mistake—something none of us could’ve ever predicted.

Petzl predicted it, and warned against it.

Also, how the person did this is far from obvious. IMO it was racked by someone fundamentally lacking in curiosity.

In reply to:
But this was an accident that could’ve happened to any of us...

Sorry, but nope. This wouldn't have happened to me. I may succumb to some other error, but climbing on another person's gear always involves at the very least a cursory look. I'm especially wary of brand new gear due to some experiences...

The bottom line is that like any dangerous activity like driving or shooting, experience counts the most (followed by attentiveness and intelligence/curiosity.)

It would be nice if you actually included the names of people you are responding to, if you are copying from multiple posts. It appears that you are responding to me, but other than the first part, I haven't actually made any of the statements you are responding to.

I do, however, think that "it can never happen to me" mentality is overly confident. I am going to do my best to make sure that I do not make a mistake like this one, or any number of similar mistakes. sure. But even the most-careful people sometimes make mistakes.


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Jul 26, 2013, 1:08 PM
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Bearbreeder's post makes it abundantly clear how tenuous the claim of "this would never happen to me" really is. It isn't simply a question of checking gear, you also have to be able to spot things you have no idea you are looking for. The research cited in the report on the USFS firefighter fatality confirms that this is not something we can do easily or well.

I'd take issue with one other comment, namely the one that says Petzl predicted this, suggesting that the rigging flaw was something people should have known to look out for. I don't think it is true that Petzl knew about this before Tito's tragic accident, and here's why:

Tito died, after several days in the hospital, on July 5 according to most on-line reports. The Petzl report identifying the problem has, at the bottom, the notation PRODUCT EXPERIENCE - STRING_M90-PE-01A(100713). I believe the part in parentheses denotes (in the European style) July 10, 2013, which would be five days after Tito died. Moreover, the document says, at the beginning,

This “Product Experience” document is a supplement to the Instructions For Use, which provides feedback from field experience and tips for using your product.

Taken together, these two items suggest very strongly that Petzl was not aware of this problem and produced the "product experience" bulletin in response to Tito's accident. It would follow that this was not a known issue that anyone would have thought to check for.


Gmburns2000


Jul 26, 2013, 5:13 PM
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Re: [rgold] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
I'd take issue with one other comment, namely the one that says Petzl predicted this, suggesting that the rigging flaw was something people should have known to look out for. I don't think it is true that Petzl knew about this before Tito's tragic accident, and here's why:

Tito died, after several days in the hospital, on July 5 according to most on-line reports. The Petzl report identifying the problem has, at the bottom, the notation PRODUCT EXPERIENCE - STRING_M90-PE-01A(100713). I believe the part in parentheses denotes (in the European style) July 10, 2013, which would be five days after Tito died. Moreover, the document says, at the beginning,

This “Product Experience” document is a supplement to the Instructions For Use, which provides feedback from field experience and tips for using your product.

Taken together, these two items suggest very strongly that Petzl was not aware of this problem and produced the "product experience" bulletin in response to Tito's accident. It would follow that this was not a known issue that anyone would have thought to check for.

Hasn't there been at least one accident similar to this in the past though? I could have sworn that someone used a draw to secure himself or herself to an anchor not knowing that the draw was only through the rubber band and the band broke.

Even if what I'm remembering is not a petzl thing (I believe it was a homemade rig to copy what petzl does), it seems to me they would have known that this could have happened based on other accidents.

I can't remember the specifics unfortunately. Sorry.


anarkhos


Jul 26, 2013, 5:17 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
It would be nice if you actually included the names of people you are responding to, if you are copying from multiple posts. It appears that you are responding to me, but other than the first part, I haven't actually made any of the statements you are responding to.

Um, I'm only quoting the article which was linked to, not multiple people. Maybe you didn't read it?


anarkhos


Jul 26, 2013, 5:19 PM
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I happen to think this is a better article, although some have disagreed:

http://rockandice.com/lates-news/dumb-climbing

It may be a bit flippant, but the fact is accidents like these are going to increase in frequency for the mere fact of how people are being introduced to climbing: gudes and schools. It doesn't pay to advertise climbing as dangerous.


wivanoff


Jul 26, 2013, 5:28 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Hasn't there been at least one accident similar to this in the past though?

This one?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2348841#2348841


bearbreeder


Jul 26, 2013, 5:30 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Hasn't there been at least one accident similar to this in the past though? I could have sworn that someone used a draw to secure himself or herself to an anchor not knowing that the draw was only through the rubber band and the band broke.

Even if what I'm remembering is not a petzl thing (I believe it was a homemade rig to copy what petzl does), it seems to me they would have known that this could have happened based on other accidents.

I can't remember the specifics unfortunately. Sorry.


no that was a different type of failure ... with an open sling and a rubber band ...

MANY intrawebbers believed this was the same type of failure because no one could conceive of someone clipping ONLY the rubber keeper on a quickdraw

you can see this on the first page of this thread and others ones around the intraweb

UKclimbing perpetrated that error by posting up a video of the open sling failure in their article on Tito's accident ... not even they could conceive that someone could only clip the rubber band of a quickdraw despite quotes in the press showing that was exactly what happened

as the firefighter accident above shows ... even the best trained people have real issues preventing things that they dont know what to look for

any RCer thinking otherwise is just deluding themselves ...

Crazy


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 26, 2013, 5:32 PM)


Gmburns2000


Jul 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Hasn't there been at least one accident similar to this in the past though?

This one?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2348841#2348841

yeah, that's the one. she used the Petzl String on the dyneema sling and clipped to the rubber and not the sling. it's essentially the same thing: in each accident the biner was clipped directly to the biner. It's just that different draw setups were used.

I know it's not the same thing exactly, but it seems to me that these are similar enough accidents that someone at Petzl probably should have thought of it. Of course I can't say that for sure, and of course they are very unlikely to ever say that it's true. I really don't think it's so far fetched that someone who is paid to think about these things would have thought about it.

Either way, there have been two accidents now where someone used the String directly into the biner. Do we need a third to argue semantics?


Gmburns2000


Jul 26, 2013, 6:19 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Hasn't there been at least one accident similar to this in the past though? I could have sworn that someone used a draw to secure himself or herself to an anchor not knowing that the draw was only through the rubber band and the band broke.

Even if what I'm remembering is not a petzl thing (I believe it was a homemade rig to copy what petzl does), it seems to me they would have known that this could have happened based on other accidents.

I can't remember the specifics unfortunately. Sorry.


no that was a different type of failure ... with an open sling and a rubber band ...

MANY intrawebbers believed this was the same type of failure because no one could conceive of someone clipping ONLY the rubber keeper on a quickdraw

you can see this on the first page of this thread and others ones around the intraweb

UKclimbing perpetrated that error by posting up a video of the open sling failure in their article on Tito's accident ... not even they could conceive that someone could only clip the rubber band of a quickdraw despite quotes in the press showing that was exactly what happened

as the firefighter accident above shows ... even the best trained people have real issues preventing things that they dont know what to look for

any RCer thinking otherwise is just deluding themselves ...

Crazy

I'm not arguing that accidents happen or that bad things happen to people who should know better. Of course they do. I'm a strong believer that it can happen to me. I just think that a product engineer really should be thinking about such things well in advance.


Partner rgold


Jul 26, 2013, 6:33 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Hasn't there been at least one accident similar to this in the past though? I could have sworn that someone used a draw to secure himself or herself to an anchor not knowing that the draw was only through the rubber band and the band broke.

I don't think there's been another such incident. There was indeed an incident in which a woman died when her tethers failed, but that was attributed to the use of rubber retainers with open slings. The possibility of accidentally clipping one of the open strands and thereby creating a sling that depended only on the rubber retainer has been known for a few years I think, and I believe that possibility was illustrated in a previous Petzl warning and is included in the current warning. But the open sling situation is completely different, even if the failure in both cases is the same. The major difference is that the open sling retainer failure can't happen with (properly assembled) closed-sling draws, so there would be no reason to even think about or such a failure or inspect for it in the context of a sport draw.

In any case, my response was to the claim that Petzl had "predicted" this accident, suggesting that a reasonably informed climber should have known about this danger, and I still do not think that is true.

As for the suggestions of product engineer negligence, I think they are way off the mark. There are millions of ways to misuse climbing gear, and every bit of climbing technology comes with its own unique set of fatal goofs, some of which, sadly, have yet to be discovered. The incorrect assembly of those draws, not one but eight of them, is, frankly, an inconceivable chain of errors. I don't think anyone can wrap their brains around how it could have happened, and I think the suggestion that engineers should have been thinking of ways to prevent it is ridiculous.


(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 26, 2013, 6:44 PM)


Gmburns2000


Jul 26, 2013, 6:52 PM
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rgold wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Hasn't there been at least one accident similar to this in the past though? I could have sworn that someone used a draw to secure himself or herself to an anchor not knowing that the draw was only through the rubber band and the band broke.

I don't think there's been another such incident. There was indeed an incident in which a woman died when her tethers failed, but that was attributed to the use of rubber retainers with open slings. The possibility of accidentally clipping one of the open strands and thereby creating a sling that depended only on the rubber retainer has been known for a few years I think, and I believe that possibility was illustrated in a previous Petzl warning and is included in the current warning. But the open sling situation is completely different, even if the failure in both cases is the same. The major difference is that the open sling retainer failure can't happen with (properly assembled) closed-sling draws, so there would be no reason to even think about or such a failure or inspect for it in the context of a sport draw.

In any case, my response was to the claim that Petzl had "predicted" this accident, suggesting that a reasonably informed climber should have known about this danger, and I still do not think that is true.

As for the suggestions of product engineer negligence, I think they are way off the mark. There are millions of ways to misuse climbing gear, and every bit of climbing technology comes with its own unique set of fatal goofs, some of which, sadly, have yet to be discovered. The incorrect assembly of those draws, not one but eight of them, is, frankly, an inconceivable chain of errors. I don't think anyone can wrap their brains around how it could have happened, and I think the suggestion that engineers should have been thinking of ways to prevent it is ridiculous.

Just to clarify, I agree that petzl didn't predict it. I think "predict" is too strong of a word. I also agree that climbing gear is not idiot proof, nor should products be engineered with this in mind.

However, as you said, it happened eight times. Don't know, but if someone who obviously had no clue could have assembled eight draws like this then a product engineer could have thought of it once.

My bet is that they knew the risk and didn't think it would actually happen, and that knowing the rubber wouldn't hold a fall wasn't enough of a concern to outweigh the advantages of putting it on the draw.


bearbreeder


Jul 26, 2013, 9:52 PM
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well if you want the opinion of someone in the industry ... 8a.nu had an interview with mammut about the incident

http://www.8a.nu/...x%3FArticleId%3D8689
the relevant quote at the bottom IMO

In the light of what just happened, do you think it would be better to skip the rubber strings all together, or is there any other ways to make the use of the strings more safe?

Definitely not, this would create new, probably higher risks – use a short dog bone for thicker, or with thin slings an inside rubber type (my opinion: this can still be assembled incorrectly) to avoid this problem. Never use any a fixation on open slings. And probably generally: don’t use gear from other persons. However, my perception about when failure is possible or not, changed quite a bit after this case.


the draws were owned and just purchased for a young girl according to reports ... she may well have assembled them, who knows ... its pretty hard to predict every possible failure mode that youngsters or anyone else can cause

again the cause of failure is different from the open sling situation ... in that case the sling turned onto itself

in this case the quickdraws were assembled deliberately and incorrectly ... i dont think theres every been a reported accident or warning from manufacturers on this specific type of assembly error since the start or quickdraws? ... thats likely tens if not hundred of thousands of draws and decades of climbing, not to mention millions of whippers

Gmburns2000 wrote:

My bet is that they knew the risk and didn't think it would actually happen, and that knowing the rubber wouldn't hold a fall wasn't enough of a concern to outweigh the advantages of putting it on the draw.


i wouldnt accuse petzl of poor risk management without evidence ... they are generally very good with putting out safety literature and pulling products they dont feel are "safe"

every piece of gear can be misused ... and wil be eventually i bet ... many of those warnings you see on product information literature have been learned the HARD WAY ... with people dying or getting hurt

Crazy


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 26, 2013, 10:08 PM)


curt


Jul 27, 2013, 8:48 AM
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rgold wrote:
...As for the suggestions of product engineer negligence, I think they are way off the mark. There are millions of ways to misuse climbing gear, and every bit of climbing technology comes with its own unique set of fatal goofs, some of which, sadly, have yet to be discovered. The incorrect assembly of those draws, not one but eight of them, is, frankly, an inconceivable chain of errors. I don't think anyone can wrap their brains around how it could have happened, and I think the suggestion that engineers should have been thinking of ways to prevent it is ridiculous.

"Negligence" is probably going too far, but this is clearly poor product engineering. It reminds me of the warning marks that some rope manufacturers started putting near the ends of their ropes, which were (foreseeably?) mistaken for middle-marks, with a number of tragic outcomes resulting.

Curt


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I honestly don't think it is poor product engineering, and I don't think the end-marks are a good analogy. The end marks are used and have to be recognized for what they are in the field, possibly under stressful circumstances by climbers who may be very fatigued. But no one assembles sport draws mid-pitch. You do that at your leisure, in a comfortable environment, when you have every opportunity to pay attention to what you are doing and double-check everything you've done, with the full realization that an assembly error could lead to your or a partner's death.

I just don't see why product design needs to take into account the fact that someone will, under these circumstances, assemble draws incorrectly. Yes, we know it can happen, the USFS firefighter fatality makes that clear. And of course, a child should never be alllowed to do this, surely that is the primary lesson of the tragedy. Would you jump out of a plane with a parachute packed by a twelve-year-old? One can think of other classes of people who should not be given such responsibility. But I don't think it is the job of product designers to anticipate and protect against such extreme instances of inattention and incomprehension. Climbers ought to have some responsibility for proper set-up and handling of their equipment, and I think that installing a rubber O-ring in a way that makes it a load-bearing component of a draw is firmly within the boundaries of personal responsibility.

By the way, if we stipulate that the rubber keepers are useful for sport draws and that at some point climbers will assemble their own draws, then how do you redesign this product? The fatal assembly was one that was clearly visible to anyone capable of looking at it without preconceptions. How could you make that any safer?

I think the lesson of the tragedy ought to point in a different direction, one that keeps the responsibility where it belongs and doesn't even suggest that such problems should be solved by product engineering. Things like sport draws and knotted slings should be bounce-tested before use, because simple inspection may not provide an adequate check.


marc801


Jul 27, 2013, 2:33 PM
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curt wrote:
"Negligence" is probably going too far, but this is clearly poor product engineering.
This is clearly a case of user incompetence and most definitely not "poor product engineering". That's like saying a Ferrari is poorly engineered because it doesn't float when you drive it off a road into a lake.


curt


Jul 27, 2013, 9:08 PM
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marc801 wrote:
curt wrote:
"Negligence" is probably going too far, but this is clearly poor product engineering.
This is clearly a case of user incompetence and most definitely not "poor product engineering". That's like saying a Ferrari is poorly engineered because it doesn't float when you drive it off a road into a lake.

No, it's not like that at all--unless you actually expect the Ferrari to float when you drive it into a lake.

Curt


curt


Jul 28, 2013, 3:00 PM
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rgold wrote:
I honestly don't think it is poor product engineering, and I don't think the end-marks are a good analogy. The end marks are used and have to be recognized for what they are in the field, possibly under stressful circumstances by climbers who may be very fatigued. But no one assembles sport draws mid-pitch. You do that at your leisure, in a comfortable environment, when you have every opportunity to pay attention to what you are doing and double-check everything you've done, with the full realization that an assembly error could lead to your or a partner's death.

I just don't see why product design needs to take into account the fact that someone will, under these circumstances, assemble draws incorrectly. Yes, we know it can happen, the USFS firefighter fatality makes that clear. And of course, a child should never be alllowed to do this, surely that is the primary lesson of the tragedy. Would you jump out of a plane with a parachute packed by a twelve-year-old? One can think of other classes of people who should not be given such responsibility. But I don't think it is the job of product designers to anticipate and protect against such extreme instances of inattention and incomprehension. Climbers ought to have some responsibility for proper set-up and handling of their equipment, and I think that installing a rubber O-ring in a way that makes it a load-bearing component of a draw is firmly within the boundaries of personal responsibility.

By the way, if we stipulate that the rubber keepers are useful for sport draws and that at some point climbers will assemble their own draws, then how do you redesign this product? The fatal assembly was one that was clearly visible to anyone capable of looking at it without preconceptions. How could you make that any safer?

I think the lesson of the tragedy ought to point in a different direction, one that keeps the responsibility where it belongs and doesn't even suggest that such problems should be solved by product engineering. Things like sport draws and knotted slings should be bounce-tested before use, because simple inspection may not provide an adequate check.

Well, I guess we're just going to disagree on this one. I realize that operator error was the proximate cause of this particular accident and I fully realize that engineering around all imaginable forms of product misuse and stupidity is impossible. But, when I was out climbing today I looked at several different quick draw designs--and there are some out there (with rubber keepers) that are designed such that this type of accident would be impossible.

Since this accident did happen, it's my personal opinion that Petzl and others should redesign their quick draw products so that a known failure mode is eliminated--much in the way most harness buckles these days can not fail to be doubled-back.

Curt


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Jul 28, 2013, 7:27 PM
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Fair enough Curt.

Hope all is well!


JasonsDrivingForce


Jul 29, 2013, 9:57 AM
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curt wrote:
Well, I guess we're just going to disagree on this one. I realize that operator error was the proximate cause of this particular accident and I fully realize that engineering around all imaginable forms of product misuse and stupidity is impossible. But, when I was out climbing today I looked at several different quick draw designs--and there are some out there (with rubber keepers) that are designed such that this type of accident would be impossible.

Since this accident did happen, it's my personal opinion that Petzl and others should redesign their quick draw products so that a known failure mode is eliminated--much in the way most harness buckles these days can not fail to be doubled-back.

Curt


How would patents figure into this? Is it possible that Petzl can't do it the fail-safe way because of patents? I really hope that is not the case.


marc801


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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
curt wrote:
Well, I guess we're just going to disagree on this one. I realize that operator error was the proximate cause of this particular accident and I fully realize that engineering around all imaginable forms of product misuse and stupidity is impossible. But, when I was out climbing today I looked at several different quick draw designs--and there are some out there (with rubber keepers) that are designed such that this type of accident would be impossible.

Since this accident did happen, it's my personal opinion that Petzl and others should redesign their quick draw products so that a known failure mode is eliminated--much in the way most harness buckles these days can not fail to be doubled-back.

Curt


How would patents figure into this? Is it possible that Petzl can't do it the fail-safe way because of patents? I really hope that is not the case.
If there's this much gas pain over properly building a quickdraw and wanting a fail-safe method for something that's easier to accomplish than tying-in, maybe climbing is not a sport for you.


JimTitt


Jul 29, 2013, 11:13 AM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
curt wrote:
Well, I guess we're just going to disagree on this one. I realize that operator error was the proximate cause of this particular accident and I fully realize that engineering around all imaginable forms of product misuse and stupidity is impossible. But, when I was out climbing today I looked at several different quick draw designs--and there are some out there (with rubber keepers) that are designed such that this type of accident would be impossible.

Since this accident did happen, it's my personal opinion that Petzl and others should redesign their quick draw products so that a known failure mode is eliminated--much in the way most harness buckles these days can not fail to be doubled-back.

Curt


How would patents figure into this? Is it possible that Petzl can't do it the fail-safe way because of patents? I really hope that is not the case.

You are confused about patents, Petzl can force another company to allow use of their patents, they have to pay but if one person had a good idea and another a crap one that is quite reasonable. Since Petzl is one of the most active patent restricting companies in the climbing industry this would be natural justice anyway.
That said I think the Petzl system is perfectly adequate and see no reason they should change to cater for blatant incompetence, there are many considerably harder tasks one must master to be a competent climber.


Syd


Jul 30, 2013, 11:03 PM
Post #74 of 77 (3960 views)
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Re: [JimTitt] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
Well, I guess we're just going to disagree on this one. I realize that operator error was the proximate cause of this particular accident and I fully realize that engineering around all imaginable forms of product misuse and stupidity is impossible. But, when I was out climbing today I looked at several different quick draw designs--and there are some out there (with rubber keepers) that are designed such that this type of accident would be impossible.

In engineering it's called "poka-yoke" ... mistake proofing.


bearbreeder


Aug 25, 2013, 5:53 PM
Post #75 of 77 (3399 views)
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Re: [bearbreeder] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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http://www.dpmclimbing.com/...after-titos-accident

According to the Italian news source La Repubblica Torina, manslaughter charges have been filed after investigation into the accidental death of Tito Traversa. On July 5, the 12-year-old Italian climber died after falling approximately 40 meters from the anchors of a climbing route in Orpierre, France. Initial investigations by French authorities revealed that his quick draws were improperly assembled with the carabiners attached to the webbing by only a small rubber keeper intended to hold the carabiner in position, not bear weight.

La Republicca Torina reported on August 21 that the public prosecutor of Turin, Raffaele Guariniello, opened a case against "unknown" after a complaint filed by Tito's father. Today, the same news source reports that Guariniello has communicated with the French police that investigated the case who have confirmed that eight out of ten of Tito's quick draws were improperly assembled. After reviewing the case and interviewing witnesses, the public prosecutor has filed manslaughter charges against five people.

The owner of the company that produced the rubber keeper is charged for not including proper instructions for assembly in the packaging. The name of the company, based in Lombardy, Italy, was not included in La Repubblica's report. The owner of the gear shop that sold the rubber keepers is charged, though the Google translation of this Italian article provides an unclear cause. Either they were required by law to provide guidance in assemblage or they were required to ensure that the product came with adequate instructions for assembly. The manager of the club that organized the trip and two instructors that were on site are charged for failing to control the correct assembly of the equipment. A sixth person, a relative of the girl that lent the equipment to Tito, is still under investigation but not currently charged.



shockabuku


Aug 25, 2013, 8:33 PM
Post #76 of 77 (892 views)
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Re: [bearbreeder] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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The tragedy continues.


gblauer
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Aug 26, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #77 of 77 (839 views)
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Registered: Oct 3, 2002
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Re: [shockabuku] Tito Traversa [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
The tragedy continues.

Amen.


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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