Forums: Climbing Information: General:
Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for General

Premier Sponsor:

 


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #1 of 37 (5794 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

Please weigh in if you are an adult responsible for a child while lead climbing.

http://www.easypolls.net/...ba08e4b084575d8553be

Thanks,

Ian


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 9:50 AM
Post #2 of 37 (5754 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 986

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Err, that´s a stupid poll, there´s no place for `They use my draws´ or `they use the centres equipment´. Which is probably the case for the majority of people climbing with minors.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 9:57 AM
Post #3 of 37 (5751 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [JimTitt] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

JimTitt wrote:
Err, that´s a stupid poll, there´s no place for `They use my draws´ or `they use the centres equipment´. Which is probably the case for the majority of people climbing with minors.

It shouldn't matter if they are yours or not. Is your argument is that because they are yours/the centers that they don't need inspection?


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 11:24 AM
Post #4 of 37 (5719 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 986

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

No, since they are either mine or belong to a centre they will have already been inspected either by myself or the person at the centre responsible for equipment inspection.
I´ve never experienced a minor providing his own equipment.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 11:28 AM
Post #5 of 37 (5715 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [JimTitt] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

So you do not routinely inspect the gear every time that is climbed upon because you assume it is fine because at some point in the past it has been inspected by yourself or another qualified adult at the center?

BTW, not judging... just looking for common practices.


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 12:02 PM
Post #6 of 37 (5694 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 986

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Normally one checks before each session but each to his own, the PPE rquirements are every 12 months and each before each use, how extensive the relevant checks are is open to intepretation.
In relation to the recent accident, the Petzl inspection requires complete dismantling of the quickdraw and reassembly which can only increase the chances of incorrect reassembly at some stage. And nobody does this before each climb.
Allowing unqualified or untrained people to tamper with or assemble equipment is naturally a completely different matter anyway which falls under group leadership and control.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 12:10 PM
Post #7 of 37 (5684 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [JimTitt] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...


Kartessa


Jul 11, 2013, 12:18 PM
Post #8 of 37 (5675 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 17, 2008
Posts: 7358

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'm sorry, I don't understand the point of this.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 12:28 PM
Post #9 of 37 (5662 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [Kartessa] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

The point of this survey was to get a glimpse in to the current practices and safety checks used by adults when climbing with minors regarding the evaluation of quickdraws.

The reason I wanted to look at that is I suspect the following:

1.) Consistently inspecting quickdraws is not a common practice when climbing with minors.

2.) The accident, while completely preventable, could have happened to many of us.

In light of this, we need to re-evaluate what is best practices for safety when it comes to minors that lead climb.


jomagam


Jul 11, 2013, 1:23 PM
Post #10 of 37 (5640 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

If you want a real picture of any situation, then have more options than Absolutely 100% of the time and Not 100.00% of the time. For example there might have been a day or two in the last decade when I did not brush my teeth, but 99.9% of the days I did multiple times.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 1:33 PM
Post #11 of 37 (5630 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [jomagam] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

In climbing we deal with absolutes. Doing things "almost" every time shouldn't be the standard, especially when it is the life of a child IMHO. Once you fail to hold yourself to that standard it becomes a slippery slope.


jomagam


Jul 11, 2013, 1:46 PM
Post #12 of 37 (5623 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 364

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 1:58 PM
Post #13 of 37 (5618 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [jomagam] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %

Thanks!


JimTitt


Jul 11, 2013, 2:55 PM
Post #14 of 37 (5600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 986

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (6 ratings)  
Can't Post

climb2core wrote:
So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...

Well, I´m going to make a sweeping generalisation here and no doubt someone out there in internet land will be able to come along and say he knows different.
NO CLIMBER HAS EVER CHECKED ALL GEAR 100% OF THE TIME


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 3:08 PM
Post #15 of 37 (5595 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [JimTitt] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

JimTitt wrote:
climb2core wrote:
So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...

Well, I´m going to make a sweeping generalisation here and no doubt someone out there in internet land will be able to come along and say he knows different.
NO CLIMBER HAS EVER CHECKED ALL GEAR 100% OF THE TIME

Fair enough, however we do have to remember that we are discussing gear that children are climbing on. What is realistic for "always" then? 90/100, 95/100, 99/100?


marc801


Jul 11, 2013, 3:51 PM
Post #16 of 37 (5572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 2770

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

climb2core wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %
You're not interested in taking a poll - you have an agenda and are pushing a particular point of view.


climb2core


Jul 11, 2013, 4:03 PM
Post #17 of 37 (5563 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [marc801] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

marc801 wrote:
climb2core wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %
You're not interested in taking a poll - you have an agenda and are pushing a particular point of view.


I don't have an agenda, but do have a hypothesis that most of us have probably been somewhat lax when it comes to inspecting gear used by children. The poll provides options for people to choose their own answer.


ajkclay


Jul 11, 2013, 4:32 PM
Post #18 of 37 (5551 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 8, 2002
Posts: 1564

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

... And we Australians have the reputation of saying "yeah, she'll be right mate..."

Do people here understand that this is a poll about gear used by children?

Children do not have the capacity for predictive planning. This means they are not adept at considering risk and potential for danger in a predictive sense, such as may be observed in checking climbing gear for damage or as in Tito's case, faulty set up.

As such the responsibility for the child's safety falls on to the adults with them. And not just one.

Do we understand that concept?

Let me explain it a little more. When tying in my belayer checks my knot. Why? Because it adds an extra safety element. A second responsible person quality assures that I have done it correctly.

I don't ask a child. I don't ask a non climber. I ask a competent person to check. every time for safety

When I put gear on my harness I know my belayer is also paying attention and letting me know if something is amiss. I do the same. It might be just a: "hey, is that 'draw right? It's sitting funny on your harness..." But I am watching. It is a reflexive thing.

In the situation of a child climbing, there must still be two people checking everything that relates to that child's safety. If it is just you, then you are subjecting that child to exactly the type of practice that is not recommended for adults.

A child climbing changes the rules. They can't check with reliability, you must check everything they will be using 100% of the time before they climb. And ask someone else to check it too.

Any other procedure is irresponsible.

Cheers Adam


granite_grrl


Jul 11, 2013, 5:28 PM
Post #19 of 37 (5526 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14903

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

climb2core wrote:
marc801 wrote:
climb2core wrote:
jomagam wrote:
Are you asking what the standard should be, or trying "to get a glimpse in to the current practices", like you said earlier ? Standards can have absolutes, but current practices are more complicated to describe.

But whatever, like everybody else on this thread says: this poll is stupid. Good luck with it !


You have an option if you don't always check gear. Sorry, not interested in breaking out the most of the times by %
You're not interested in taking a poll - you have an agenda and are pushing a particular point of view.


I don't have an agenda, but do have a hypothesis that most of us have probably been somewhat lax when it comes to inspecting gear used by children. The poll provides options for people to choose their own answer.

I would suspect that most parents are "lax" in most activities performed by the child outside of climbing. What parents inspects their kid's bike every time they go out? Or even their bike helmet. Fuck, I didn't even have a bike helmet when I was a kid!

A parent should be using gear from a trusted source (their own gear, climbing club's, etc). But there isn't going to be a 100% inspection every time they go out.


rocknice2


Jul 11, 2013, 5:36 PM
Post #20 of 37 (5521 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1213

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I agree this is a stupid poll.

I doubt anyone check 100% of their gear 100% of the time.
The reality is, a climber is checking their gear every time they rack up, place and the second checks when they recover it. This isn't a thorough verification but compiled over time is adequate.

That said, if I'm taking out kids them I will make sure they have their harness doubled back and tied in properly. If they bring their own draws that their dad just got them, I'll take a look at them.
This is on a sliding scale too. Obviously nobody is going to treat a 16 year old with 4 years experience the same as a 10 year old with 1 year. Or a 32 yr old with no experience.

I haven't heard mentioned who's QD's they actually were. If they belonged to the club then they were most likely assembled by the coach or assistant. In everyone's mind they were assembled properly. needless to say that if I can't assemble a QD properly, I don't qualify to verify if they are in proper climbing condition.

I do however check the tire pressure and brakes of the school bus that stops outside my door every morning.


Kartessa


Jul 11, 2013, 5:42 PM
Post #21 of 37 (5515 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 17, 2008
Posts: 7358

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

climb2core wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
climb2core wrote:
So, your answer is "normally one checks before each session" which would imply that you do not check all gear 100% of the time...

Well, I´m going to make a sweeping generalisation here and no doubt someone out there in internet land will be able to come along and say he knows different.
NO CLIMBER HAS EVER CHECKED ALL GEAR 100% OF THE TIME

Fair enough, however we do have to remember that we are discussing gear that children are climbing on. What is realistic for "always" then? 90/100, 95/100, 99/100?

Do you do a full safety check of your car every time you have a minor in it? 100% of the time?


bearbreeder


Jul 11, 2013, 5:44 PM
Post #22 of 37 (5512 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [granite_grrl] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

some people on the intraweb are going crazy with the "blame game" over this accident

i see 12 year olds all the time loitering around the 7-11 on weekend nights ... i see em riding bikes around my neighbourhood without helmets ... i see em do unroped 3rd and 4th class scrambles ... i see em swimming in open water on the beach ... i see em and their parents on boats without life jackets ....

and ive done ALL THESE THINGS myself at that age ...

there risk in anything ... short of locking the kids in the closet youll never truly eliminate the risk

teach em the basic safety procedures ... and give em quick checks ... theres "kids" i know who climb who i would trust more than any "adult" tough guy climbers

ANYONE here who says that they ALWAYS check ALL their and their partners gear closely before every climb is a LIAR or you dont climb that much ... there will be plenty of times where youll glance at a bundle of gear decide its fine and use em ...

those intraweb "experts" can rant on all they want ... but if 4 trained firefighters can miss something similar that leads to a fatality ... anyone here can as well, despite any "safer than thoult" attitude



Before the rappelling attempt, four people looked at or inspected Marovich’s rappelling gear: the spotter trainee who installed the “O” ring, Marovich, and in the helicopter a spotter, and another helitack crewperson who did a “buddy check”.

Marovich fell, unarrested, shortly after stepping out onto the helicopter skid. He was pronounced deceased about 30 minutes later.


http://wildfiretoday.com/...rappelling-fatality/

Crazy


ajkclay


Jul 11, 2013, 7:11 PM
Post #23 of 37 (5482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 8, 2002
Posts: 1564

Re: [bearbreeder] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

This is not about blame...

Those involved will have their own demons to battle, probably for the rest of their lives, on the "Tito" tragedy.

A coroner will determine cause and make recommendations, and my guess is that a recommendation that children's gear is checked every time will be made.

All that aside, I find it difficult to understand why people struggle with the concept and provide strawman arguments around the concept of not having to check everything that a child is being tied into or relying upon when they are suspended high above the ground.

The amount of effort in performing a check of the gear that a child is about to use will actually take less energy and time than defending a stance to the contrary on the Internet. Yet people persist.

Do I check that every seatbelt of every child who gets into my car is properly fastened? Yes. 100% of the time. Do I check the connections? No. Bt they are not known to have fail points that can simply undo. I check the fail point, which is the buckle.

Do check my son's bike every time he goes out for a ride? No. I service it regularly, and I know it well. But it does not have known fail points that can simply undo. I check that he is wearing his helmet 100% of the time. See the theme? Known fail points, things that need to be checked are checked.

Climbing gear has many potential fail points, from knots to quick draws to bolts etc. Yes, it may be a pain in the butt to check this stuff, but really, is it that hard? That tedious? So damned difficult that the benefits of not checking 100% of the time are so greatly outweighed by the costs that it is worth defending this stance for hours on the Internet?

We can't do anything to prevent Tito's death. But we can learn from it.

Here's what I have been reminded about in this situation, and that is the need to have a second person check. Whilst I have always checked everything 100% of the time, I have not always had another adult climber check it.

It's no ones business to try to make those involved feel worse, we should be supporting them. But let's not stick our heads in the sand. The gear was not checked adequately, and it should have been.

Instead of looking to feel better about my own practice when taking kids climbing, I'm more prepared to actually take a few more minutes while performing the check, and make sure that I actually get a second experienced person to check all the gear. Screw my pride, children are trusting me, and I am willing to learn from the example.

Cheers

Adam


bearbreeder


Jul 11, 2013, 7:33 PM
Post #24 of 37 (5467 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [ajkclay] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (6 ratings)  
Can't Post

ajkclay wrote:

This is not about blame...

-----------------

Any other procedure is irresponsible.

sure it is for you as the quote above shows ... youre the one going off about irresponsibility if one doesnt do this or that ... youve got an obvious agenda ...

the simple fact is that you CANT check everything in kids life ALL THE TIME ...

sure give the gear a basic check ... and better yet TEACH them how to do their own checks ...

but are you going to "check" every piece and every climb after EVERY single pitch ... after all gear can get damaged DURING a climb as well ...

do you pre-climb a route to make sure theres no loose rock? ... well you better climb 8a+ French with kids these days ... i bet you cant

climbing is NOT reducible to a seatbelt ... you cant reduce it to one simple factor ...

and in case you havent noticed, this is the first time weve heard of this type of fatality involving a DOGBONE ... some "experts" think that they can prevent the unexpected ... bullshiet ...

only intraweb "experts" going off about "irresponsible" predict this stuff after the fact ...

sit them down and go through basic SAFETY so they can LEARN ... not just should out "IRRESPONSIBLE, IRRESPONSIBLE"

Crazy


ajkclay


Jul 11, 2013, 9:29 PM
Post #25 of 37 (5422 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 8, 2002
Posts: 1564

Re: [bearbreeder] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Yes. I do have an agenda. I stated it quite plainly. Learning from this unfortunate accident.

Duh.

I don't care about your agenda, your chest thumping about who can climb what, nor experience, although I would have thought that to a moderately experienced climber it would be reasonably obvious that in order to check a route you don't have to be able to climb it - heard of a rap inspection?

Also, if you'd bothered to read other posts you'd see the point of the seatbelt comment.

But here's the reality of things: a child is not capable of predictive planning the kind required for risk assessment whilst on route and prior to climbing. They are not. Anecdotes about trusting some children more than adults is not a measure of how intelligent the child is, but of how irresponsible the adult is. This is not something that can be debated. It is not a variable. Frontal lobe development through adolescence is based on very robust study. I do not expect you or others to necessarily know this, but I do. It is my job to.

So we come back to my agenda: using the recent accident as a means to re-evaluate procedure and then assisting others to understand the need to provide children with exactly the same level of safety checking that we insist on for ourselves, a check of gear and relevant factors by two adults.

That's it. If you disagree, fine,


bearbreeder


Jul 11, 2013, 9:44 PM
Post #26 of 37 (1488 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [ajkclay] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

you agenda is to call people IRRESPONSIBLE who dont do as you want ...

heres a suggestion ... rather than unilaterally come up with arbitrary rules and call people IRRESPONSIBLE if they dont follow em ...

try having a nice polite discussion with people who you actually climb with ... or are you going to run around the crag and gym all day shouting out IRRESPONSIBLE?

at the end of the day you can come up with all the "rules" all you want on RC ... and it wont matter one bit ... you know why? ... no one listens to "climbers" who run around intraweb boards shouting "IRRESPONSIBLE IF YOU DONT DO AS I SAY!!!"

they know an intraweb "expert" when they see one ...

ajkclay wrote:
check of gear and relevant factors by two adults.

you DO realize that an "adult" doesnt mean CR@P ... i know adults who i wouldnt trust to check my spare change ... never mind climbing gear ... and some youngsters that i would ...

adult does NOT mean climbing experience

you arent "learning" ... you are simply using an accident as an excuse to FORCE your point of view on other people or youll label them IRRESPONSIBLE

Crazy


ajkclay


Jul 12, 2013, 1:37 AM
Post #27 of 37 (1466 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 8, 2002
Posts: 1564

Re: [bearbreeder] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Seriously, grow up.

You have grabbed one word and decided to have a field day with it.

I clarified for you that my point was trying to learn from it. I don't care whether you agree or do what I think is best practice, you can say whatever the hell you like and that's your opinion. You can do whatever the hell you like when taking children climbing, nothing is likely to happen, climbing is not littered with large numbers of fatalities, and I hope that it truly does not. I am not threatened by you being able to say what you want, it's your prerogative.

The same as it is mine to give my thoughts.

If you want to pick fights on the interwebz then go right ahead, you know what they say about fighting on the Internet and winning, I'm not going to be a part of silly games. I clarified my thoughts, say what you like.

You win.

Adam


bearbreeder


Jul 12, 2013, 2:14 AM
Post #28 of 37 (1459 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1960

Re: [ajkclay] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

seriously ....

call people "irresponsible" and you should expect people to point out the flaws of your "argument" ... as others have done as well

the simply fact is that you will very rarely get two fully qualified and experienced adults to check every piece of climbing gear of kids in real life situations ...

just stop by your local climbing gym or crag ... not even guides or instructors get TWO HIGHLY EXPERIENCED "adults"to check every single piece/tie in/anchor/route/etc ...

nor does "adult" mean anything in the climbing world ... EXPERIENCE, PERCEPTION and JUDGEMENT are what matters ... and "adults" have no monopoly on it ... would you trust the alcoholic dad who took a quick TR belay course over a teen with 5+ years daily climbing and leading experience who was taught safety from the get go???

this isnt about "winning" or "losing" ... its about not blaming without all the fact ... and not running around calling people "irresponsible", especially if you dont really know what happened ...

as a side note to the mods ...

this thread should NOT be in A&I for obvious reasons ... it has nothing to do with the "facts" but is pure speculation and "irresponsible" labelling

Crazy


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 12, 2013, 2:31 AM)


JohnCook


Jul 12, 2013, 3:44 AM
Post #29 of 37 (1440 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 26, 2006
Posts: 221

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This is an unhelpful poll.
I have answered it as best I can. Some of the younger people I climb with use my gear, which I check regularly, some bring their own, and they have parents who don't actually care, eg non-locking biner on belay device. Some parents don't have the skill to check. For these reasons I almost always make a visual check of a young persons gear and in the case of some always check their gear, but the badly worded survey does not allow for this.
I don't think you will be able to draw any useful or relevant conclusions from this half-asses poll!


climb2core


Jul 12, 2013, 5:21 AM
Post #30 of 37 (1420 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 16, 2012
Posts: 26

Re: [JohnCook] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I apologize if people found this poll unhelpful or offending. After Tito's tragedy, I heard so many people blaming the adults that were there. I heard it would never happen on my watch, that it was because they were grade chasers, idiots, etc...

From casual observation I believed that the current standard operating practice was not to check each piece of gear when child is sport climbing every time. Hence, I put out the poll to see if that was indeed true.

My only point in all this was that while the tragedy was preventable, it could have happened to any one of us. It is also an opportunity for us to learn and take extra precautions to mitigate risk as best as possible while letting children enjoy the pursuit and passion of climbing.

I also think this accident serves as an opportunity to make sure the children are involved in those safety checks. They should be inspecting the draws with you. They should be looking at the knot with you. They should understand terms like cross-loaded and redundant.

So, lets stop finger pointing, try to set a good example for others to follow, and develop best practices to reduce avoidable risk.

Mods, please feel free to move this.

Thanks,

Ian


(This post was edited by climb2core on Jul 12, 2013, 11:33 AM)


shockabuku


Jul 12, 2013, 7:16 PM
Post #31 of 37 (1339 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4867

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I inspect my gear after use so that I know that it's ready the next time I need it. I guess it gets a cursory look over prior to use but not a detailed inspection.

I'm curious about implied responsibility. I may take minors climbing with me because they are friends of my child, but I don't generally consider myself responsible for their safety while climbing - I'm just the transportation mechanism. Generally they bring their own gear so it's not my concern.


(This post was edited by shockabuku on Jul 12, 2013, 7:20 PM)


Syd


Jul 15, 2013, 7:54 PM
Post #32 of 37 (1279 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

55% "... assume that the parent/adult of that child has sent the child with safe gear. " ... so much for responsibility of parents.

I think it's a very different thing checking your own gear 100% of the time (or not) and making sure your children are safe.


technogeekery


Jul 15, 2013, 10:16 PM
Post #33 of 37 (1268 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 146

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I haven't looked at the poll, certainly sounds like the OP has an agenda, and I'm not interested in polls skewed to prove a point.

But the underlying question is very serious / interesting, and not academic for me - my 6 & 8 year old boys have been climbing indoors for a couple of years with me, and recently started outdoors as well. They aren't leading yet (and won't) but we recently climbed with another family whose 10 year old son was leading 5.6-7 routes, and my sons & watched with interest.

I'm not ready to let my sons lead yet, they aren't ready for it mentally. The older boy in particular climbs well, has real talent - but not much in the way of "common sense" and is easily distracted / shows off / can't understand consequences, so I won't let him lead until he is much more sensible. Even then... personally, I wasn't too sensible until I was in my 30's...

When it comes to safety, I take full responsibility for their safety. I buy and maintain their gear, check it every time it goes on, and check every tie-in / clip-in. I don't get a second adult to check, I think that is overkill (my personal view) but I get them to check it first, and I double check, all the while conscious that there is no real back up for my check. Its good - I don't tend to complacency like I might with myself, and they are learning checking & double check routine. I'll also double check bottom anchors, belay devices etc - but I'm quite comfortable with relying on the gym to have the toprope top anchors properly secured, and the ropes in reasonable nick, given Australia is highly regulated and my 2 gyms reasonably competent & safety conscious. I delegate that responsibility to them (as I do with the lead bolts for my leading) and am okay to do same when my kids are climbing. Outdoors is much the same, I'll check & double check and remove as much danger as I can within what I consider reason - and I suspect that level will vary from parent to parent, child to child, year to year.

I think the intention of the OP is good, and Tito's death has certainly made me (and a lot of people) re-evaluate their decision making process, whcih is a good thing. I'd caution against making sweeping statements or condemning people who might not adhere to your precise process or evaluation of risk though - it probably doesn't advance your cause.


ajkclay


Oct 29, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #34 of 37 (1045 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 8, 2002
Posts: 1564

Re: [bearbreeder] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/coaching-instructing-and-the-law


Ruff_Dog


Oct 30, 2013, 3:53 PM
Post #35 of 37 (995 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 31, 2013
Posts: 56

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Alright. So, by your logic, I'm considered a child. I'm sixteen, if that matters. And I only own my harness, carabiners, belay devices, and shoes but the guy who I climb with and the gym that I climb at both check me and I check him, with him being my partner. Do we inspect everything? No. Just the basic things, such as the harness, the shoes, the rope, the carabiners, etc. It's a quick check, too. It's not like we're sitting there meticulously scanning everything. As it was said in the thread, no one will. The percentage of human error would most likely be fairly high anyway. It's like saying, do you inspect every hair on your body before you go out in public? No, it'd be pointless.

And yes, I know it's much later than the original posts. I finally logged back into my account.


(This post was edited by Ruff_Dog on Oct 30, 2013, 4:02 PM)


Partner happiegrrrl


Oct 31, 2013, 10:00 AM
Post #36 of 37 (976 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4624

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In climbing we deal with absolutes...

Except in cases where the answer is "It depends."


It's easy to point fingers at others(even if it is a generic other, and not someone specific) but none of us is above making a mistake or oversight.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Nov 6, 2013, 8:38 PM
Post #37 of 37 (901 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 11, 2008
Posts: 5184

Re: [climb2core] Link to Poll for Adults resposible for children that lead climb [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

My son (12) lead climbs. My daughter (8) does not lead (yet). My son climbs with my quick draws. I visually inspect my draws after a trip and before going on a trip. Prior to a climb I do not re-check the draws any more than I re-check their harnesses. It was good when I put it in the backpack and unless there is reason to check, I don’t thoroughly check it coming out. I also don’t re-check my rope closely just prior to a climb.

I do do a “double check” in that the inspection to confirm that the harness is attached happens after it is attached and just prior to climb. I check the knot (and my own harness) with extra slow caution because I recognize that one of the sets of eyes on this is a 12 year old boy. And while he also checks that my harness is attached and that the ‘biner is locked – he is still a 12 year old boy. I assume that I need to take the same carefulness as if I was alone. I do not have a second adult check. When my daughter top ropes I am even more careful as I do not expect her to have checked her knots or harness. And while lead is more dangerous, a bad knot or harness on top rope is just as dangerous.

For the record, I also scuba with my son, have taught my daughter how to shoot a bow, and my climbing partner is my wife. So feel free to assess those risks.


Forums : Climbing Information : General

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook