Maybe test if jamming actually happens?

I have heard of one accident where jamming occurred under soaking wet conditions. But other evidence indicates some rap devices will simply push the autoblock down like it wasn't even there.

Edit: I was assuming Syd meant an autoblock below the rap device and properly set so it can not extend into the rap device.

I don't see how it would melt and fail, however, under any circumstance, since it is never taking your weight. A friction knot above the device, I can see how that might occur, but never below the device. Josh

I found this: http://www.canyoneering.net/...6f896957d62f57f64602

The fellow recommends this: http://www.bluewaterropes.com/...Key=&ProdKey=367

I now use a mega jul for raps.

First, very sorry to hear about a tragic accident. Prayers for the family and friends involved.

It's interesting to hear more people talking about autoblocs. They were not used in the old days. Back in prehistoric times, when folks just used Figure-8's (or Munter hitches ... doncha love 'em!), and then later ATC's, we basically relied on competent rapelling. Use a rig that has enough friction for your purposes, stay balanced, stay in control - mentally and physically. And in a group - just send the most competent (or the most expendable!) person first and ask them to belay from the ground by tugging the rope - when the next person is on.

I think when you add more and more gear - the system may not be getting safer. It can get too complex.

dT

Are we confident enough (as Syd seems to be) to promote that it can be reliably configured to not melt but still be helpful while slipping? On a long rap, there's a lot of energy to be dissipated to do that.

Bill L

Edit: I meant the above in the context of brake-hand forces.

Confident enough? Yes. 100% confident? Are we that confident with anything in climbing? Are you 100% confident that your gear will catch you when you fall?

I found this: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-4867.html?s=fca3499485e46f896957d62f57f64602

The fellow recommends this: http://www.bluewaterropes.com/home/productsinfo.asp?Channel=Occupation&Group=&GroupKey=&Category=Sewn%20Prusiks/Purcells%20and%20Rope%20Lanyards&CategoryKey=&ProdKey=367

I now use a mega jul for raps.

Maybe you should just learn how to rappel properly.

What's your point ? Some form of auto block should be used for raps, which is quite correct.

I define 100% confidence that pro will catch me as that I'm willing to bet my life on it.

In the spectrum of acceptable to marginal to unacceptable pro, the one's I'd bet my life on are the acceptable placements. And I'll quickly add that a lead fall can be hard enough or rock apparently poor enough that there is no placement in the "acceptable" sub-range even for a text-book placement. (Nothing knew to you in this I know.)

I'm not willing to bet my life on the the marginal setting of an autoblock - in that I mean the french prusik, either explicitly or through developing habits that rely on it. And I wouldn't promote doing so to others.

Because, one can always configure it to absolutely have enough friction to stop an out-of-control rap ... although of course one can go to the point of an impractical amount of friction.

Bill L

P.S. Full disclosure - I don't use a french prusik on the brake strand.

No one should "depend on" or "bet their life" with a backup. That's why they call it a back up.

Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries like the branch that went up through behind a fellow's balls and out his side not so long ago.

Sounds like inexperience was a big factor. No telling how he tied his autoblock or what he did. I would imagine it would be much harder to screw up with an autolocking belay device like the alpine smart etc.

Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further.

IN that incident there is no question that inexperience was the primary factor. But so many in this thread are advocating precisely that (in some cases without realizing what they're really saying) - substituting and autoblock for experience. Your post was one of them.

What bs. Nothing is a substitute for experience. An autoblock or autolock simply adds to safety. There's endless stories of very experienced climbers who have died making stupid errors. Anything that adds to safety is worthwhile ... unless you some idiot who wants to die.