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lena_chita
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Nov 5, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Re: [satch] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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satch wrote:
I don't see how you link to the forums from the routes database, but anyway my point is that it doesn't happen on RC like it does on mountain project.
I know about adding to information to the the routes, I am adding to the routes data, but most users are not. In mountain project, almost all those who note that they climbed a route add some helpful information about the route. In RC.com the users typically just note that they climbed the route. They are ticking, rather than adding helpful information. If that were to change, I think it would make RC more appealing.

This would require changing the behavior of every user, and that is beyond the ability of any website owner. Besides, there are plenty of people who tick their sent routes on mp, and don't add any comments, and plenty of people who comment on routes here.

I see no value to the owners in making RC.com database a copy of mountain project database. But RC.com route log has features that MP lacks. There are graphs, the ability to track number of routes, the grade sent, etc. from year to year. Those could be improved to make them more valuable for people who use the route database for ticking routes. Simple changes such as making the log sortable/searchable, adding the ability to add multiple ticks for the same route, instead of creating a separate "ascent" for each time, making route grade a consensus of everyone's input, instead of whatever the first person entered, making it easier to remove duplicate route entries, etc. could go a long way.

Right now, the route database and the graphs that come with it is so outdated that someone has to go in and manually "create" a new year, for example. last year, it was ~February before the year 2013 made it's appearance on the charts.


satch


Nov 5, 2013, 11:33 AM
Post #102 of 430 (2827 views)
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Re: [lena_chita] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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Not every user, Lena_chita, just enough of a core group to establish a better and different norm. There are (or were) some that added helpful info on routes.

Compare the comments on a popular route between the two websites, like Pleasant Overhangs at Seneca. MP has more helpful, informative comments per responder, RC has some and a lot of "." comments. Maybe the ticks should be separated from the comments.

MP has a helpful norm established, RC does not. Compare the tone of the forums - MP postings are very helpful and they don't seem to tolerate rude postings. Not so much the case at RC, although there are a few helpful posts, the good ones just seem to get lost in the noise. Take the recent trip report on Chamonix. Beautiful pics and some initial info on exciting routes. Could have been great, but it turned into a critique of the OP's use of Cray Cray.

I agree the graphs could be updated sooner and have more options. I would like that too, It would help, but that's a tech fix to a group dynamics problem.


adatesman


Nov 5, 2013, 12:45 PM
Post #103 of 430 (2791 views)
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Re: [Jeff] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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Afraid I have to admit to going <creepy stalker> on you Jeff, and have an honest question.... Were you an active RC user prior to purchasing the site?

Given your background, the cynic in me is wondering if the purchase was driven by an interest in rock climbing and desire to turn the place around, or simply because your expertise is such that you'll succeed where NameMedia and D4DR failed?


(Before anyone asks, no. Do your own <creepy stalking> if you're that curious).



Edit to add a comma and the parenthetical.


(This post was edited by adatesman on Nov 5, 2013, 1:21 PM)


boymeetsrock


Nov 5, 2013, 1:10 PM
Post #104 of 430 (2768 views)
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Re: [ncrockclimber] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
FWIW I think many of the people who post on here like that things are a little more "raw"...


IMHO there is a SMALL minority of users that revel in being rude and sometimes abusive. For every user that likes it "raw" and has 1000s of intentionally inflammatory posts, there are 100s of users that would prefer to talk about rock climbing in the a more civil manner, similar to what we do when we meet face to face. By catering to the vocal minority, I think that you drive away the larger and more civil user group. I don't want to see a whitewashed and heavily moderated site, but don't particularly enjoy participating in a site where threads commonly devolve into insult contests. Although I do not have data to support this, I believe that the mass exodus of users happened way before the spamming. I quit visiting due to the site becoming progressively more toxic. I am sure others had different reasons.

+1

I have no problem with site users keeping each other in check. This site went well beyond that for quite some time. With everything there is a balance.


markc


Nov 5, 2013, 1:38 PM
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boymeetsrock wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
FWIW I think many of the people who post on here like that things are a little more "raw"...


IMHO there is a SMALL minority of users that revel in being rude and sometimes abusive. For every user that likes it "raw" and has 1000s of intentionally inflammatory posts, there are 100s of users that would prefer to talk about rock climbing in the a more civil manner, similar to what we do when we meet face to face. By catering to the vocal minority, I think that you drive away the larger and more civil user group. I don't want to see a whitewashed and heavily moderated site, but don't particularly enjoy participating in a site where threads commonly devolve into insult contests. Although I do not have data to support this, I believe that the mass exodus of users happened way before the spamming. I quit visiting due to the site becoming progressively more toxic. I am sure others had different reasons.

+1

I have no problem with site users keeping each other in check. This site went well beyond that for quite some time. With everything there is a balance.

I'm having trouble remembering exactly when moderation was much heavier and inconsistently applied. I came over to rc.com after wreck.climbing was already well in decline in non-spam posts. (Seeing a trend in my patterns?) While I'm not a fan of back and forth squabbling when it's clearly stopped being productive or people being dicks for the sake of it, I'd be much more likely to bail if moderation is too heavy-handed.

On another note, some people have suggested catering to the n00b. Moving away from the cliche "do a search" or "you're gonna die" replies would be nice, but you can't maintain a community around shoe and first rope discussions.


adatesman


Nov 5, 2013, 1:59 PM
Post #106 of 430 (2730 views)
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Re: [markc] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
On another note, some people have suggested catering to the n00b. Moving away from the cliche "do a search" or "you're gonna die" replies would be nice, but you can't maintain a community around shoe and first rope discussions.

Have to disagree on that point, as the existence of teen magazines is proof it's not true. It's that the user quickly outgrows the community, not that the community can't exist. The problem is striking a balance between making the community accessible to new folk while at the same time keeping the interest of the older ones. Plus with new ropes and shoes coming out all the time and the decline of brick&mortar stores, how else is someone new going to get opinions on their first pieces of gear?


boymeetsrock


Nov 5, 2013, 2:00 PM
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markc wrote:
boymeetsrock wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
FWIW I think many of the people who post on here like that things are a little more "raw"...


IMHO there is a SMALL minority of users that revel in being rude and sometimes abusive. For every user that likes it "raw" and has 1000s of intentionally inflammatory posts, there are 100s of users that would prefer to talk about rock climbing in the a more civil manner, similar to what we do when we meet face to face. By catering to the vocal minority, I think that you drive away the larger and more civil user group. I don't want to see a whitewashed and heavily moderated site, but don't particularly enjoy participating in a site where threads commonly devolve into insult contests. Although I do not have data to support this, I believe that the mass exodus of users happened way before the spamming. I quit visiting due to the site becoming progressively more toxic. I am sure others had different reasons.

+1

I have no problem with site users keeping each other in check. This site went well beyond that for quite some time. With everything there is a balance.

I'm having trouble remembering exactly when moderation was much heavier and inconsistently applied. I came over to rc.com after wreck.climbing was already well in decline in non-spam posts. (Seeing a trend in my patterns?) While I'm not a fan of back and forth squabbling when it's clearly stopped being productive or people being dicks for the sake of it, I'd be much more likely to bail if moderation is too heavy-handed.

On another note, some people have suggested catering to the n00b. Moving away from the cliche "do a search" or "you're gonna die" replies would be nice, but you can't maintain a community around shoe and first rope discussions.

1)
Moderating has varied as the site has gone through changes. But that wasn't the point. We're talking about how users treated each other.

I agree with Curt and so many others. The community was the draw to this site. But I feel that, in the end, the community feel was destroyed by the community itself as much as by the management. Angry is right too, that feel may never return.

Harden the F*ck Up, is funny. Ad hominem attacks ad nauseum, not so much.

2)
As to this site catering to the n00bs, it only makes sense. With this domain name, every n00b who logs onto the internets will wind up here. I see that playing out with quality gear reviews, articles on technique, skills and training, and the beginner FAQ. The forums don't need much change in this regard, except perhaps in attitude.




Nice to see some respected and long absent users posting up on this thread.


shimanilami


Nov 5, 2013, 2:02 PM
Post #108 of 430 (2725 views)
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Re: [Jeff] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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It would be nice if the "Rock Climbing Articles and News" were updated more often. Why bother having such a section - especially smack-dab in front of your face on the home page - if it can go months and months without change?


ncrockclimber


Nov 5, 2013, 2:06 PM
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Re: [markc] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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markc wrote:

+1

I have no problem with site users keeping each other in check. This site went well beyond that for quite some time. With everything there is a balance.

I'm having trouble remembering exactly when moderation was much heavier and inconsistently applied. I came over to rc.com after wreck.climbing was already well in decline in non-spam posts. (Seeing a trend in my patterns?) While I'm not a fan of back and forth squabbling when it's clearly stopped being productive or people being dicks for the sake of it, I'd be much more likely to bail if moderation is too heavy-handed.

On another note, some people have suggested catering to the n00b. Moving away from the cliche "do a search" or "you're gonna die" replies would be nice, but you can't maintain a community around shoe and first rope discussions.

Good points. Moderation is all about setting the tone and managing or ignoring a few consistently abusive users. Not everyone is going to be happy with whatever decision the new owners make. If nothing else, it will be interesting to see the direction in which they decide to take this site.


(This post was edited by ncrockclimber on Nov 5, 2013, 2:10 PM)


Partner cracklover


Nov 5, 2013, 2:07 PM
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Re: [jt512] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
My recollection is that a large number of regular users were disgruntled with the direction the site took when DDT took it over, and left the site soon after. But I could be mistaken.

Your recollection matches mine. There were three things that happened in fairly quick succession that caused many of my friends to leave the site. I don't know the order, but it was all around 2006.

- Removing inline photos (on purpose)
- New design of the site
- Heavy handed moderation (like what happened to the Singles thread)

IIRC, this is also around when Climbsomething was forced out as a moderator?

Some really wonderful users, with decades of experience in the climbing world, good writers, good heads on their shoulders, left around then.

GO


olympicmtnboy


Nov 5, 2013, 2:16 PM
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Welcome Jeff and Kristen!

Wow, I hadn't logged on in months and I was really bored today. Hopefully this is great news for the future here. Like many I was at least a daily visitor and occasional contributor for several years back in the early-mid 2000's. It wasn't the spam that drove me off, I just kind of followed the herd when the users I liked hearing from left. NOOB threads decayed from interesting and useful advice and humorous heckling to other NOOBs responding with bad advice and others posting inane and annoying responses. I spend my time on cascadeclimbers.com and supertopo.com now and use the routes database on MountainProject. I did come back a bit with the really cool homemade cam contest and I enjoyed the exclusive OR gear show reports a lot too.

It's gonna be tough to get it back, but I think as long as new kids start climbing, people will stumble on this site. You need to make a place where some of the old folks still want to play too.

Since this is a question post, here it is: What do YOU want from this site? Were you a user before? What other forums or site do you or have you owned? Is this a personal interest/hobby/labor of love or are you trying to make it pay?

There aren't any right answers, and you maybe can revive the site either way, but it might help the conversation.


Partner macherry


Nov 5, 2013, 2:23 PM
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adatesman wrote:
markc wrote:
On another note, some people have suggested catering to the n00b. Moving away from the cliche "do a search" or "you're gonna die" replies would be nice, but you can't maintain a community around shoe and first rope discussions.

Have to disagree on that point, as the existence of teen magazines is proof it's not true. It's that the user quickly outgrows the community, not that the community can't exist. The problem is striking a balance between making the community accessible to new folk while at the same time keeping the interest of the older ones. Plus with new ropes and shoes coming out all the time and the decline of brick&mortar stores, how else is someone new going to get opinions on their first pieces of gear?

what kept users coming to rc.com was a vibrant, sometimes bawdy, familiar forum known as community. i came to this site for climbing info but stayed because of the connections i made. through community i picked up some good climbing buddies and friends.........most of them i know only online and haven't met in real life. with changes in rc.com leadership and issues with the site, most of my interaction has switched over to facebook. give a look at the threads in campfire or soapbox, there is not much turnover in discussion.

i benefited from gear reviews and also swapping knowledge climber to climber, ie., what down jacket do you prefer, or what harness is more comfortable on a longer climb. it's these kinds of exchanges that keep users coming back.

as well, it has to be recognized that climbers are a rowdy bunch, there's going to be off colour talk and a few stfu noobs. just keep out the dumb assery sexist, racist, and homophobic crap.


adatesman


Nov 5, 2013, 3:15 PM
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macherry wrote:
what kept users coming to rc.com was a vibrant, sometimes bawdy, familiar forum known as community. i came to this site for climbing info but stayed because of the connections i made. through community i picked up some good climbing buddies and friends.........most of them i know only online and haven't met in real life. with changes in rc.com leadership and issues with the site, most of my interaction has switched over to facebook. give a look at the threads in campfire or soapbox, there is not much turnover in discussion.

i benefited from gear reviews and also swapping knowledge climber to climber, ie., what down jacket do you prefer, or what harness is more comfortable on a longer climb. it's these kinds of exchanges that keep users coming back.

as well, it has to be recognized that climbers are a rowdy bunch, there's going to be off colour talk and a few stfu noobs. just keep out the dumb assery sexist, racist, and homophobic crap.

Not sure if that's agreeing with me or not, Marge. But if not, I'd like to amend my earlier statement to bring it more in line with what I meant, which is what you stated better. Smile


jakedatc


Nov 5, 2013, 3:21 PM
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Jeff, you need to understand that you're on a pirate island and there are no rules, only 'guidelines'.

people have tried to change that and the site only lost users. Hell, Boldering.com was basically built on RC escapees. Think of taking the biker bar and trying to turn it into a bagel shop.

I was a regular poster on here for almost 10 years and the best people i've climbed with are rough and tough skinned people online and off.


Partner macherry


Nov 5, 2013, 3:25 PM
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adatesman wrote:
macherry wrote:
what kept users coming to rc.com was a vibrant, sometimes bawdy, familiar forum known as community. i came to this site for climbing info but stayed because of the connections i made. through community i picked up some good climbing buddies and friends.........most of them i know only online and haven't met in real life. with changes in rc.com leadership and issues with the site, most of my interaction has switched over to facebook. give a look at the threads in campfire or soapbox, there is not much turnover in discussion.

i benefited from gear reviews and also swapping knowledge climber to climber, ie., what down jacket do you prefer, or what harness is more comfortable on a longer climb. it's these kinds of exchanges that keep users coming back.

as well, it has to be recognized that climbers are a rowdy bunch, there's going to be off colour talk and a few stfu noobs. just keep out the dumb assery sexist, racist, and homophobic crap.

Not sure if that's agreeing with me or not, Marge. But if not, I'd like to amend my earlier statement to bring it more in line with what I meant, which is what you stated better. Smile

i am in agreement

but who the hell gives you one star for quoting me!!


Gmburns2000


Nov 5, 2013, 3:25 PM
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I miss the gear reviews from John. He always did good work on those trade shows.

I never enjoyed the lab talk because I'm just not interested in the physics of everything and those conversations could get numb from the over-analysis of the numbers, but I think those conversations were a good part of the meat for a while, and I did learn something when someone finally wrote up a summary for dummies.

I've always learned something (or tried to) from the injury reports and analysis, too.

Other than the super-secret posting hiding place, that's where the bulk of my interest was always focused. It was always about the discussion for me, and if I learned something then I was more likely to stick around. Once it turned into a super-specific, narrowed down to the lowest common denominator, I'm right because I said this tiny thing that you ignored kind of crap...that's when I tuned out.


adatesman


Nov 5, 2013, 3:27 PM
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Another one for Jeff, who I will henceforth only refer to as NewBoss, much as j_ung became known as Bluey.... (perhaps differentiating yourself with a better color name?)

In your OP, NewBoss, you made mention of no tolerance for sexually explicit content and went on to remove posts in this thread regarding the original logo, which as a (very) long-running joke has been oft referred to as an (unnamed part of anatomy). Trying to remove vulgarity from a rock climbing site is a fool's errand. Case in point, the seminal pic of the Vulgarian movement in the Gunks, involving a naked Dick Williams climbing Shockley's ceiling.

Link to not offend anyone: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/...unks%2Bvulgarian.jpg

Under the no vulgarity rule, discussion of this pic or even the Vulgarian movement in general would be out of bounds. And that's not even touching on the names used in the Routes Database.... Some of them would curdle milk!


Partner happiegrrrl


Nov 5, 2013, 3:33 PM
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I don't think many people would consider that picture (Williams on the first nude ascent of Shockley's Ceiling) to be sexually explicit content.


carabiner96


Nov 5, 2013, 3:37 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
I don't think many people would consider that picture (Williams on the first nude ascent of Shockley's Ceiling) to be sexually explicit content.
Just wait until he pulls the roof!


adatesman


Nov 5, 2013, 3:39 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
I miss the gear reviews from John. He always did good work on those trade shows.

IIRC he's now over at DPM. Not sure he added much value other than the show postings though.

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I never enjoyed the lab talk because I'm just not interested in the physics of everything and those conversations could get numb from the over-analysis of the numbers, but I think those conversations were a good part of the meat for a while, and I did learn something when someone finally wrote up a summary for dummies.

Fair point, and why Bluey segregated it out into a moderated forum of its own. Not everyone's cup of tea, and frankly for the short while it lasted was the only place the Enginerds could call home.


jt512


Nov 5, 2013, 3:40 PM
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macherry wrote:
looks like my first post was one of the posts to go. my point was !.this ship is sinking fast, if you're going to get change implemented, it has to be sooner than later.

That's what I was trying to say in another thread. Strangely, it was interpreted as a threat.

In reply to:
but, you won't win any friends or favours by hiding posts you don't like

Indeed.


adatesman


Nov 5, 2013, 3:47 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
I don't think many people would consider that picture (Williams on the first nude ascent of Shockley's Ceiling) to be sexually explicit content.

Very true, Happie. But remember, the pic is from the 1950's and what was acceptable then is far from what is acceptable now. Case in point (again, linked to avoid offending):

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ry_semen_100947.html
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._My_Semen_55390.html
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...na_Vagina_66499.html
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ed_Vagina_42730.html
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...gina_Envy_67621.html

I could go on, but think I made my point in the least offensive way possible. Sorry if it runs afoul what you want for the site, Jeff NewBoss, but truth is that this aspect of it is beyond your control.



Edit: should be obvious.


(This post was edited by adatesman on Nov 5, 2013, 3:53 PM)


jt512


Nov 5, 2013, 3:53 PM
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Jeff wrote:

I'll be PM'ing a few of you shortly with more explanation of why I hid your posts.

[Edit: As I pm'd those of you whose posts I hid, I'm *not* making a sitewide policy that threads can't get derailed, just I'd appreciate if we keep this particular thread on-topic for two reasons: 1) I want to make sure I hear from a wide variety of users, not just the vocal ones, and tons of o/t posts starts to make a thread feel like it's insiders only, and 2) I'm trying to come up to speed as fast as possible and make sure I read all these posts and think about them and a long stream of off-topic discussion just adds more cycles that slows me down, which slows down how fast I can make changes to move this site forward. If you want to just chit-chat, there's plenty of other threads for that.]

Jeff

OK, but but first impressions are important. DDT made some heavy-handed moves when he took over, and essentially lost the race right out of the starting gate. Most of us really don't like to be told what to say or how to say it.


(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 5, 2013, 5:49 PM)

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