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Partner happiegrrrl


Nov 7, 2013, 6:46 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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Yes, but it's still hideous and boring!

I had to laugh when that "personalization" was added to the site. It was like "Why would you provide us the option to toggle between these dark and dreary color schemes?(though I agree that the blue is the better of them).


ncrockclimber


Nov 7, 2013, 8:08 AM
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Re: [curt] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.


granite_grrl


Nov 7, 2013, 8:25 AM
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Re: [ncrockclimber] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.

I'm curious who these few high post users are. Frankly, some of the most often complained about people (ie - in this thread it's been JT and Curt) are quite knowledgable and only add to the noise when someone picks a fight with them.

Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).


Partner cracklover


Nov 7, 2013, 8:30 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.

I'm curious who these few high post users are. Frankly, some of the most often complained about people (ie - in this thread it's been JT and Curt) are quite knowledgable and only add to the noise when someone picks a fight with them.

Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).

Clicky -> http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=user_posts;so=DESC;

GO


granite_grrl


Nov 7, 2013, 8:43 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.

I'm curious who these few high post users are. Frankly, some of the most often complained about people (ie - in this thread it's been JT and Curt) are quite knowledgable and only add to the noise when someone picks a fight with them.

Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).

Clicky -> http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=user_posts;so=DESC;

GO

Only 154 posts to go Gabe!


roninthorne


Nov 7, 2013, 9:15 AM
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Re: [ncrockclimber] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.

Perhaps... or it could just be an unreasonable attachment to those apparently outmoded concepts of freedom of speech and standing up for what you believe in.

Meanwhile, all the calls to heavily moderate the forums sound like someone asking their Dad to come back them up when they argue with the older kids on the playground, or debate with the smarter kids in school.

Moderate the info in the noobs forum, and let the rest of it run.


carabiner96


Nov 7, 2013, 9:17 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.

I'm curious who these few high post users are. Frankly, some of the most often complained about people (ie - in this thread it's been JT and Curt) are quite knowledgable and only add to the noise when someone picks a fight with them.

Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).

Clicky -> http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=user_posts;so=DESC;

GO
Well, that's embarrassing.


adatesman


Nov 7, 2013, 9:18 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
Fourth – bring back the lab! The lab doesn’t have to be perfect or worthy of peer review. Trust us, if it isn’t worthy, we will let them know. The lab doesn’t have to be perfect just interesting.


Correct me if I'm wrong, Toast, but isn't The Lab right where it's always been and fully open for anyone to contribute? Only difference is that there's not anyone there anymore to generate interest and facilitate discussion. Which frankly is exactly how it was before I came along.

BTW, those sorts of discussions still happen. Mostly on MP from what I've seen, plus as an occasional tangent in a thread on ST.


On another note, Majid got canned? SMH. Amazes me how few people got that his online persona is entirely schtick done intentionally to provoke discussion about what is and what is not safe. Emailed with him a bunch, and he's quite the nice guy.


(This post was edited by adatesman on Nov 7, 2013, 9:23 AM)


ncrockclimber


Nov 7, 2013, 9:36 AM
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Re: [roninthorne] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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Ron, I am not calling for "heavy" moderation. I am also not asking for my anyone to back me up. I am simply saying that a few VERY persistent posters think that it is appropriate to be rude and condescending to anyone that disagrees with them. That type of behavior, although amusing at times, tends to drive away users that don't want to enter into a verbal sparing match on every thread.

Every forum has a personality. The personality being espoused by some posters on this thread is one that does not appeal to me. I think that user traffic shows that I am not alone in this opinion.


Fred20


Nov 7, 2013, 9:50 AM
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Re: [satch] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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satch wrote:
Not every user, Lena_chita, just enough of a core group to establish a better and different norm. There are (or were) some that added helpful info on routes.

Compare the comments on a popular route between the two websites, like Pleasant Overhangs at Seneca. MP has more helpful, informative comments per responder, RC has some and a lot of "." comments. Maybe the ticks should be separated from the comments.

MP has a helpful norm established, RC does not. Compare the tone of the forums - MP postings are very helpful and they don't seem to tolerate rude postings. Not so much the case at RC, although there are a few helpful posts, the good ones just seem to get lost in the noise. Take the recent trip report on Chamonix. Beautiful pics and some initial info on exciting routes. Could have been great, but it turned into a critique of the OP's use of Cray Cray.

I agree the graphs could be updated sooner and have more options. I would like that too, It would help, but that's a tech fix to a group dynamics problem.

I'm with SATCH on this. Lady posts awesome (IMO) trip report w/ pics and the post was trolled for its Subject Title...I really get annoyed when people try to out GRAMMAR other people on the internet. This is a forum, nothing here is being "published"...save the critiques for vague posts that need clarification

I have only been browsing here for a little over a year though, my $0.02


majid_sabet


Nov 7, 2013, 9:55 AM
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Re: [Jeff] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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let's get some of the old RC members who were send to Guantanamo to do their time back to RC so they could contribute to good forums such as "LAB"

And remove the badge of few young nazi cops who patrol forums and send US nany to Afghanistan to do more push up and find routes in lower Himalayas.

He can also do more testing in mazarsharif opium field


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Nov 7, 2013, 12:07 PM)


Partner happiegrrrl


Nov 7, 2013, 10:24 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).

Actually, if you take a few moments to click through to the posts of those 10K+ users, you see that those experienced and knowledgeable climbers have shared little or no relevant content within the last two years (with a few exceptions).


granite_grrl


Nov 7, 2013, 10:35 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
In reply to:
Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).

Actually, if you take a few moments to click through to the posts of those 10K+ users, you see that those experienced and knowledgeable climbers have shared little or no relevant content within the last two years (with a few exceptions).

There's nothing to post to on this site anymore.


JohnCook


Nov 7, 2013, 10:39 AM
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It is apparent that what these forums really need is an option for people to opt out of having to read posts from individuals who "spoil" things for them.
I read it all, not as much as I used to, but when I'm on here every post gets read.
I rarely post and try to keep on topic and respectful, but that is my nature.
No heavy central moderation is needed, keep it at the level it is at now.


Partner happiegrrrl


Nov 7, 2013, 10:40 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
There's nothing to post to on this site anymore.


Could that be because....
In reply to:
....over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating.


climber511


Nov 7, 2013, 11:06 AM
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I admit I'm an old guy - but so many of the posts have become so toxic I have nearly quit visiting. It's not worth going through the seemingly teen age BS to try and find the serious answers to questions. Someone asks a for real question - 20 posts later - after all the judgmental and infantile and off topic nonsense, someone will finally answer the question for the poor guy - who by now has probably given up and gone somewhere else. You need a "serious" section with heavy moderation and banning if you want a forum of value for people who actually want to learn. Then an infantile section for the rest.


mojomonkey


Nov 7, 2013, 11:12 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
There's nothing to post to on this site anymore.


Could that be because....
In reply to:
....over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating.

Possible. Though what you consider noise may also be drawing in other users with tastes different than yours.

The problem may be more fundamental - why bother with RC.com? The site's staying power waned. I used to look at photos, check out the route database, maybe even read the articles posted. But I go elsewhere for those things now because I get a better experience. Years ago RC was the only route database for lots of areas I was interested in. The route DB on MP probably pulls in a lot of users now. It is much broader now and easier for me to find info on, or ask a question about, a specific route. For a question the best you can do here is a regional forum. Folks often are unable to figure out how to post a thread linked to a region and just dump it in general, so good luck finding that info again with the weak search here.

On MP I can look through the comments for a specific route. Maybe my question has been covered already. If not, maybe someone answers it and the info is easily found by others. And anyone can comment on the route without having to log an ascent and add it to the notes like here (and only 5 of those are show at a time).

So I start using MP for that info. Same with news items, or pictures*, or gear reviews. I found better sites for all of those. So what is left here? What does RC excel at to keep me checking in?

* Say I want to find nice pictures from the Gunks to daydream about. I can click on the photo link from the Gunks page, or try an advanced search on a destination from the photo tab. Different results - number of photos and ordering - for each method. I don't see any way to chose the sorting (views, ratings, comments?). The thumbnails are tiny - 75x75 in case I am on dial up? The bulk of the page is text. I want to find some photos!


(This post was edited by mojomonkey on Nov 7, 2013, 11:21 AM)


Gmburns2000


Nov 7, 2013, 11:17 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
The inmates can run this asylum just fine.

Get your own advice or go back to page... ... aw crap, it suddenly becomes practical. Mad


curt


Nov 7, 2013, 11:22 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.

I'm curious who these few high post users are. Frankly, some of the most often complained about people (ie - in this thread it's been JT and Curt) are quite knowledgable and only add to the noise when someone picks a fight with them.

Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).

The idea that a few abusive posters have driven away site traffic away from RC.com is really pretty absurd. John Gill, John Long, John Stannard, Dr. Kerwin Klein (all friends of mine) no longer post here--and it certainly isn't because of jt512 or me--or anyone similar.

The reason large numbers of experienced climbers have left RC.com is because the signal to noise ratio is so horribly low here, with nothing but "what shoe should I buy" threads and other similarly repetitive and banal offerings. There is simply very little content here anymore. I have many other friends who have migrated to Supertopo or other forums for precisely the same reason.

Curt


Partner happiegrrrl


Nov 7, 2013, 11:26 AM
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I agree that the images are too small, and remember when the Home Page was redone. Many complained that the featured image seemed stuffed up in the corner, too small, and surrounded by way too much text.


ncrockclimber


Nov 7, 2013, 11:49 AM
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I think that it is "pretty absurd" to think that the combative and rude tone set by a few "power users" with an extremely high post count has nothing to do with the decline in user participation on the forum. Just like you, I have friends that have left this site for the greener pastures of MP or ST. Like me, they left because they found the personality of this site to be unenjoyable.

It is pretty obvious that you and I are not going to agree on this. Jeff is going to steer this site in the direction that he thinks is best. I just wanted to present the other side to the position you are aggressively supporting.

FWIW, this is not meant as a personal attack against you. I climbed next to you at Atlantis this summer and found you to be polite and affable. I would welcome the opportunity to interact with you again in the real world.

Cheers.


Partner epoch
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Nov 7, 2013, 11:56 AM
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curt wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
ncrockclimber wrote:
I do not believe that the previous "management" or spam (a recent phenomenon) had anything to do with the decline in forum participation. I think that over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating. All the calls for leaving the forum alone sound like a recipe for continuing the status quo. That is something that does not appeal to me, and if forum participation is any indicator, something that only a small minority of users enjoy.

I'm curious who these few high post users are. Frankly, some of the most often complained about people (ie - in this thread it's been JT and Curt) are quite knowledgable and only add to the noise when someone picks a fight with them.

Actually, if you look through the list of users with 10,000 posts + you have a list of experienced and knowledgable climbers (with a few exceptions).

The idea that a few abusive posters have driven away site traffic away from RC.com is really pretty absurd. John Gill, John Long, John Stannard, Dr. Kerwin Klein (all friends of mine) no longer post here--and it certainly isn't because of jt512 or me--or anyone similar.

The reason large numbers of experienced climbers have left RC.com is because the signal to noise ratio is so horribly low here, with nothing but "what shoe should I buy" threads and other similarly repetitive and banal offerings. There is simply very little content here anymore. I have many other friends who have migrated to Supertopo or other forums for precisely the same reason.

Curt
What would you suggest, then, to maybe bring that traffic back? How could we as a (whole) community revive great discussion here?


lena_chita
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Nov 7, 2013, 12:13 PM
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mojomonkey wrote:
happiegrrrl wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
There's nothing to post to on this site anymore.


Could that be because....
In reply to:
....over the last two years this place became increasingly more toxic and the "noise" generated by a few high-post count users drowned out the rest of the community and climbing content. As a result, the majority of users stopped participating.

Possible. Though what you consider noise may also be drawing in other users with tastes different than yours.

The problem may be more fundamental - why bother with RC.com? The site's staying power waned. I used to look at photos, check out the route database, maybe even read the articles posted. But I go elsewhere for those things now because I get a better experience. Years ago RC was the only route database for lots of areas I was interested in. The route DB on MP probably pulls in a lot of users now. It is much broader now and easier for me to find info on, or ask a question about, a specific route. For a question the best you can do here is a regional forum. Folks often are unable to figure out how to post a thread linked to a region and just dump it in general, so good luck finding that info again with the weak search here.

On MP I can look through the comments for a specific route. Maybe my question has been covered already. If not, maybe someone answers it and the info is easily found by others. And anyone can comment on the route without having to log an ascent and add it to the notes like here (and only 5 of those are show at a time).

So I start using MP for that info. Same with news items, or pictures*, or gear reviews. I found better sites for all of those. So what is left here? What does RC excel at to keep me checking in?


But how is this different from other climbing-related discussion forums? When I first joined RC, Facebook wasn't anywhere near what it is now. Deadpoint magazine didn't exist. In fact, most climbing-related news were just starting online versions. Whether it is gear reviews, or climbing videos, the wealth of information on the web now, compared to even 7-8 years ago, is staggering. And of course the websites that are dedicated to one particular aspect of it, such as climbing news or gear reviews, are donig a much more thorough job of it that RC.com does.

There are many ways that the informational/database side of RC.com could be improved, and I would dearly love to see those improvements. Whether it is the ability to quickly search for all photos of a specific route, or being able to sort a climbing log, or getting consensus route grades, it' would be awesome and welcome.

There are definitely updates to the front page and general appearance of the site that would be beneficial.

But forums are made by people. And you searching for a specific photos or browsing database for route comments doesn't contribute to the vibrancy of the forum. People do.

And people now have other means to connect. If RC were to go down right now, I would still like macherry's picture of a giant cat on Facebook, laugh at adateseman's backhoe accident, comment on drivel's blog, ask curt for trip beta, watch camhead's video, follow chossmonkey's competition circuit, and so on.


adatesman


Nov 7, 2013, 12:31 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
... laugh at adateseman's backhoe accident, ....

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific... Which one? ShockedSmile

That said, so far this one is my favorite:



Spot on about having other ways to connect, BTW. Can't say I see much need for RC even having a forum at this point, as the DPM model is far superior in terms of generating the income needed to keep the lights on. As demonstrated by NameMedia and D4DR, there's just not sufficient ad money brought in by simply letting folks berate each other on a forum.


(This post was edited by adatesman on Nov 7, 2013, 12:32 PM)


Partner macherry


Nov 7, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Registered: Sep 10, 2003
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Re: [lena_chita] Hi--I'm the new RockClimbing.com owner--ask me anything [In reply to]
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social media sites have replaced certain aspects of rc.com....especially community. but, if it weren't for rc.com in the first place, i wouldn't have these connections.

there was a vibrant rc.com community that was relatively easy to join. but, with users not using or staying on the site, it's hard to build community or a user base that sticks around.

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