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richardvg03


Feb 27, 2014, 9:26 PM
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Climbing and my dog?
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I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb.

I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive!

Thoughts?


meanandugly


Feb 28, 2014, 3:03 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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First of all thank you for your service. Now for your travel companion, make a sign that is very visible that explains who he is and why he is there. I think that most reasonable and prudent persons would be fine with that. There are those few fucktards that you can do nothing about, but we should adjust our lives based on those few.


(This post was edited by meanandugly on Feb 28, 2014, 11:10 AM)


olderic


Feb 28, 2014, 6:19 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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No. Your dog is loyal and well behaved but it'd not fair to him/her. Are you sure he will have enough food and water, be warm enough or not too hot. If tied then what about wild animals? What about rockfall? That dog is your responsibility - yor baby. Treat it accordingly.


marc801


Feb 28, 2014, 11:34 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb.

I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive!

Thoughts?
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.


Partner cracklover


Feb 28, 2014, 3:49 PM
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Re: [marc801] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb.

I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive!

Thoughts?
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe.

A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long.

When you come down, all you see is a dog that is ecstatic to see you again. You never see the dog I see. The one who, all day while you're up there, is scared and miserable.

GO


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 28, 2014, 4:27 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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There will always be"the dog discussion."

I have no intention of "getting into it" and debating the thing, but my Teddy, who passed away last summer, was my companion who came with me wherever I went, including at the cliffs.

He was an unofficial service dog, but I know that in my hear he was as real a service dog for me as it gets. He made it comfortable for me to be around people. Since everyone who knows me from climbing only knows me AFTER Teddy helped me, they don't know how different I am because of him. But anyway...


Teddy would do fine located with my pack in the best spot I could get for him. I would sometimes be gone for 4 hours. He was well known at the local crag. and people would stop and hang with him sometimes, and friendly so obviously that strangers would approach and pet him. He might occasionally get excited when I would come back from the climb, but that doesn't seem an unreasonable behavior.

Dogs who have grown up enough to know "proper behavior"and who don't have emotional traumas that cause them anxiety when left, have no problem being left for long amounts of time. With Teddy, having my pack near him seemed to show him that he was "supposed to be there."


There are always going to be people who "see things differently" and will provide all manner of reason and attempts to convince, shame, put the fear in a person about having their dog at the crag. If the place allows it - they are entitled to their opinion, but one is not required to entertain that opinion. As for dogs- again: Some dogs DON'T do well being left. But if a dog is okay with it- the dog DOES NOT MIND, and in most cases is HAPPY to be there. I know I watched Teddy from many a belay - sleeping like a lamb, enjoying a petting, casually watching people, looking up to me so high above, regally "being Teddy," just happy in the moment. Teddy would have absolutely preferred to be there while I climbed than left at home, and those who say I cannot "know" what Teddy thought don't know much about companion animals.


meanandugly


Feb 28, 2014, 5:52 PM
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I have to agree with you happiegrrrl. This is not about dogs at the craig, but about an individual's service dog and how to best handle that situation.


olderic


Mar 1, 2014, 9:56 AM
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I am definitely not against taking my dog to the crag, or the beach, the park or hiking - I do it all the time. I am against leaving her alone and constrained in an unfamiliar and potentially hostile place. One of the worst things I ever saw was a dog tied at the base of the Nears get attacked by bees while it's people were on the 2nd pitch.


shockabuku


Mar 1, 2014, 10:18 AM
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Re: [marc801] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb.

I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive!

Thoughts?
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

That's a stupid comparison; children are rarely trained as well as dogs. Also, you'd get arrested for leaving your kid tied to the tree, it's more likely to be stolen or abused, and generally can't ration its food and water as well.

Also, it is much more rare for people to eat children although I think the rate of eating dogs has probably dropped over time.

Where would the dog be stored if it wasn't at the crag? In the house in a kennel? I think I'd rather be tied to a tree in an out of the way place.


skelldify


Mar 1, 2014, 10:28 AM
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Totally disagree. It all depends on the dog. Some dogs will be fine hanging out while the owner climbs, some won't be.


lena_chita
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Mar 2, 2014, 5:20 PM
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Re: [marc801] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb.

I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive!

Thoughts?
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

With all respect, children and dogs are NOT equivalent in their needs, even though dogs are, absolutely, members of people's families.

You let the dog sleep on the pallet on the floor (or even in a doghouse outside). You let the dog stay at home alone all day, even a young dog. You let the dog eat out of the bowl on the floor. You don't get upset when the dog laps up water from a creek.

None of those would be appropriate for children.

The answer to this question will depend on the dog in question, and the dog's temperament. Some dogs get anxious and sad if left alone. Others don't. For any dog whose owner works away from home during the day, this is really no different, fundamentally, than being left alone while the owner goes to work, as long as the dog is comfortable in the place where she is left to wait.

One of my regular climbing partners has a dog who, without being restrained, will happily curl up and lay quietly in an out-of-the-way place all day. She doesn't want food, or drink. She will play if you engage her, but will not demand attention if you don't. She is just that chill, despite being only 3 years old, and she has been that way since she was a puppy.

The dog in question being a service dog, I am guessing that it is a dog that is temperamentally suited to being O.K. with staying in one place for half a day. And you can definitely find a place that is safe from rockfall and sheltered from sun. You can maybe compromise of the leash rule by having her leashed to a lightweight stake that could be pulled out without much effort if the dog is threatened by an unlikely wild animal. A trained service dog will not leave, even without a leash.


richardvg03


Mar 2, 2014, 10:13 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.


cracklover wrote:
I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe.

A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long.


I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.


To the rest of you who are not completely apeshit stupid and understand what a dog is... Thank you for your responses. I think my dog will be just fine but I wanted to run it across the community first.




(This post was edited by richardvg03 on Mar 2, 2014, 10:14 PM)


meanandugly


Mar 3, 2014, 2:59 AM
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^
Good looking pup

Don't be too frustrated with those who have no idea with the difference between a pet and a service dog. I have 2 dogs, both are running (or all round) partners, they and I work hard on their training and one will come ice climbing with me in certain locations, but they are not craig dogs and I don't want them to be. I have nothing against craig dogs if they are well behaved, but there are those who go ape shit about them no matter what, they just failed to realize that this was not a post about craig dogs.

ps. as for the similarity between dog and children, they are completely different...I like dogs.


blueeyedclimber


Mar 3, 2014, 5:17 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.

That was a little harsh. Marc is NOT what's wrong with today's society. He just has an opinion and voiced it. Nothing wrong with that.

In reply to:
cracklover wrote:
I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe.

A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long.

I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.

Yes, there is a big difference between a pet and a working dog. If you don't mind me asking, what is his service?

In reply to:
To the rest of you who are not completely apeshit stupid and understand what a dog is... Thank you for your responses. I think my dog will be just fine but I wanted to run it across the community first.

Settle down. The topic of crag dogs has come up so often that people have their own opinions and experiences with them. If you bring up climbing and dogs, you would have to know that you would get some of that.

Personally, I love dogs and love seeing them when climbing but it totally depends on the dog (and the owner). The comparison to children was off base but if you had to compare them, think about the children you have come across. Some are very well behaved and some aren't. Some parents are great, some aren't. Some parents are good who have very well behaved children but they have their misbehaving moments. C'est la vie.

It all depends.

In reply to:

Good looking dog.

Josh


(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Mar 3, 2014, 5:18 AM)


csproul


Mar 3, 2014, 7:10 AM
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skelldify wrote:
Totally disagree. It all depends on the dog. Some dogs will be fine hanging out while the owner climbs, some won't be.
The problem is the number of dog owners who are unable to distinguish the two. I love seeing dogs at single pitch crags. But on multi-pitch crags, for every one dog I've seen chilling at the base, I've seen 10 that were hostile/clearly freaked out/tangled in their leash/out of water etc...while their owner was obliviously 300 ft off the ground.

A service dog, however, is probably a whole different situation than your average dog.


csproul


Mar 3, 2014, 7:13 AM
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Where did you get your service dog from...perhaps the trainers might have an opinion on leaving your dog while you climb?

You clearly did not get the answer here that you were looking for.


Partner cracklover


Mar 3, 2014, 9:32 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.


cracklover wrote:
I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe.

A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long.


I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.

And I think you missed the part where I said the most well-behaved dog can be under duress watching his owner disappear up a cliff. If you really want the answer to your question, have a friend (who the dog does not know well) observe the dog while you go do a multi-pitch climb, and report back to you. You simply cannot know what you don't know, and many dog owners are oblivious to what's happening with their dogs when they're not there. Some dogs are absolute saints around their owners, and the owner never realizes that when that connection is broken, the dog gets very anxious.

But it looks more like you just wanted people to confirm the opinion you hold already. Next time you need validation, maybe you should look to your dog, rather than other people who have their own experiences and can share *different* opinions from yours.

GO


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 9:59 AM
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cracklover wrote:


And I think you missed the part where I said the most well-behaved dog can be under duress watching his owner disappear up a cliff. If you really want the answer to your question, have a friend (who the dog does not know well) observe the dog while you go do a multi-pitch climb, and report back to you.


Ya I've done that… but I did it with a baby-monitor. (insert IRONY for dog=child ideology!)


Cracklover's dog:




My dog:







Don't take any of this personally cracklover… I'm just busting your "animals are people too" chops! :) It's all in good spirits from me. I do agree with you on the fact that some dogs go ape shit when their owner disappears.


meanandugly


Mar 3, 2014, 10:01 AM
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^
Love it.


csproul


Mar 3, 2014, 10:17 AM
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Is the service dog for you (used by you) or are you training it?


(This post was edited by csproul on Mar 3, 2014, 10:18 AM)


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 11:55 AM
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csproul wrote:
Is the service dog for you (used by you) or are you training it?


He's mine…hence the signature:
:
:
V


csproul


Mar 3, 2014, 12:07 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
csproul wrote:
Is the service dog for you (used by you) or are you training it?


He's mine…hence the signature:
:
:
V
What in your signature us supposed to tell me whether the dog is your service dog or if you're training it? I don't get it. I've met retired marines that fit into both.


marc801


Mar 3, 2014, 12:07 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.
Of course I know the difference between a pet dog and a service animal, and I'm absolutely certain that as such your dog has exemplary behavior.

The thing is you're focused entirely on how the dog and other climbers might react. What about the things that can happen to the dog while it's tied to a tree for hours?
Previously mentioned: rockfall, stinging insects, water running out or tipped over, same for food. What about other animals and how they might react to your dog? Have you ever seen what a raccoon or skunk can do to an animal's face? Swarm of yellow jackets from the unseen nest at the base of the tree that your dog just laid down on?

My point of the child analogy was that just like a child, your dog has limited response options to deal with stuff. In fact, as a service dog, those options are even less than those available to pet animals.

One other suggestion: when you go to a discussion forum and ask a question, it's probably not a good idea to get all butthurt when you don't get the answers you want or expect.


csproul


Mar 3, 2014, 12:11 PM
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Especially important things to keep in mind when talking about a $15000 well-trained dog who would be much more difficult to replace than your average pet (not that I'm saying a pet is easy to replace).


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 12:15 PM
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marc801 wrote:

The thing is you're focused entirely on how the dog and other climbers might react. What about the things that can happen to the dog while it's tied to a tree for hours?
Previously mentioned: rockfall, stinging insects, water running out or tipped over, same for food. What about other animals and how they might react to your dog? Have you ever seen what a raccoon or skunk can do to an animal's face? Swarm of yellow jackets from the unseen nest at the base of the tree that your dog just laid down on?

I didn't think about that… or the apocalypse… or zombies… dammit! What if zombies show up?! What the F**K is my dog going to do?! Unsure



marc801 wrote:
One other suggestion: when you go to a discussion forum and ask a question, it's probably not a good idea to get all butthurt when you don't get the answers you want or expect.

(Hug) Don't misinterpret my implying that you're an idiot as me being butthurt and don't take me implying that you're an idiot, personally. You stated your opinion… then I stated my opinion about your opinion. Like you said… we're all entitled to our opinions. :) God bless the USA (or this forum??)

Anyway, You do bring up good points about other denominators. Usually… not always… but usually wild animals tend to leave dogs alone. Now… zombies… ya zombies don't give a F**K! :)


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 12:18 PM
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csproul wrote:
What in your signature us supposed to tell me whether the dog is your service dog or if you're training it? I don't get it. I've met retired marines that fit into both.

You're correct. That was very ignorant of me. I usually assume everybody was, or is, in the military.

To retire from the military you have to do one of two things. 1. Serve 20+ years or 2. get injured so badly that you are medically retired from service. A Sgt. in the Marine Corps is a rather low rank for somebody who would have served for 20+ years so it's safe to assume a Sgt. was medically retired.


csproul


Mar 3, 2014, 12:22 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
csproul wrote:
What in your signature us supposed to tell me whether the dog is your service dog or if you're training it? I don't get it. I've met retired marines that fit into both.

You're correct. That was very ignorant of me. I usually assume everybody was, or is, in the military.

To retire from the military you have to do one of two things. 1. Serve 20+ years or 2. get injured so badly that you are medically retired from service. A Sgt. in the Marine Corps is a rather low rank for somebody who would have served for 20+ years so it's safe to assume a Sgt. was medically retired.
Ahh...got it. Thanks.


Partner cracklover


Mar 3, 2014, 1:42 PM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:

Cracklover's dog:




My dog:







Don't take any of this personally cracklover… I'm just busting your "animals are people too" chops! :) It's all in good spirits from me. I do agree with you on the fact that some dogs go ape shit when their owner disappears.

Hmm, well if you think the dog-equivalent-to-baby analogy was dumb (and I didn't make that analogy, someone else did) then I think the analogy you're making with my dog is way worse.

If you think that giving a shit about whether a dog gets anxious when left tied to a tree all day in a stressful situation (the point I was making) is equivalent to being a nutter who cares so much for his dog's feelings that he wants to feed him at the dinner table, then maybe you care too little.

GO


chadnsc


Mar 3, 2014, 2:47 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
csproul wrote:
What in your signature us supposed to tell me whether the dog is your service dog or if you're training it? I don't get it. I've met retired marines that fit into both.

You're correct. That was very ignorant of me. I usually assume everybody was, or is, in the military.

To retire from the military you have to do one of two things. 1. Serve 20+ years or 2. get injured so badly that you are medically retired from service. A Sgt. in the Marine Corps is a rather low rank for somebody who would have served for 20+ years so it's safe to assume a Sgt. was medically retired.

If you don't mind answering; what assistance do you use your service dog for?

My brother in law is in Marines for the past 13 years and also serves as a scout sniper.


granite_grrl


Mar 3, 2014, 5:07 PM
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chadnsc wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
csproul wrote:
What in your signature us supposed to tell me whether the dog is your service dog or if you're training it? I don't get it. I've met retired marines that fit into both.

You're correct. That was very ignorant of me. I usually assume everybody was, or is, in the military.

To retire from the military you have to do one of two things. 1. Serve 20+ years or 2. get injured so badly that you are medically retired from service. A Sgt. in the Marine Corps is a rather low rank for somebody who would have served for 20+ years so it's safe to assume a Sgt. was medically retired.

If you don't mind answering; what assistance do you use your service dog for?

My brother in law is in Marines for the past 13 years and also serves as a scout sniper.

Since he's doing multipitch climbing I assume something like PTSD?


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 5:25 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:

Since he's doing multipitch climbing I assume something like PTSD?


Because a person with a physical disability can't go climbing?




chadnsc


Mar 3, 2014, 5:51 PM
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That's why I'm asking why you need the service dog; could be a lot of things.


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Mar 3, 2014, 6:13 PM
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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Yes, it could be. But the main thing it is, is personal.

I'm sure people don't think they are being rude with the inquiry, maybe are interested in knowing about the many awesome ways dogs can help people, but it is impolite to put a person on the spot n this situation.


granite_grrl


Mar 3, 2014, 6:31 PM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Since he's doing multipitch climbing I assume something like PTSD?


Because a person with a physical disability can't go climbing?

[image]http://media.2oceansvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Untitled-1.jpg[/image]

Actually, I was thinking that not everyone with a disability needs a service dog.

You seem to have an aggressive nature on this forum. Since you had ignored the question multiple times I was assuming it was more complicated than you lost your legs.


granite_grrl


Mar 3, 2014, 6:40 PM
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Re: [happiegrrrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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My personal opinion on leaving your dog at the base while you go up the cliff for the day: the dog will probably be okay, but it's pretty selfish for you to do that. It's pretty close to tossing your dog outside at night assuming it'll take care of itself. It probably will, until it gets hit by a car.

The dog was trained to serve you. You are it's world, no matter how professional the situation. The dog is there to take care of you, you should return the favor and take care of your dog properly.


(This post was edited by granite_grrl on Mar 3, 2014, 6:46 PM)


olderic


Mar 3, 2014, 6:44 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
If you think that giving a shit about whether a dog gets anxious when left tied to a tree all day in a stressful situation (the point I was making) is equivalent to being a nutter who cares so much for his dog's feelings that he wants to feed him at the dinner table, then maybe you care too little.

GO

It least the nutter feeding his dog at the table isn't hurting anyone.


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 9:27 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
Yes, it could be. But the main thing it is, is personal.

I'm sure people don't think they are being rude with the inquiry, maybe are interested in knowing about the many awesome ways dogs can help people, but it is impolite to put a person on the spot n this situation.

Thank you!

Asking somebody why they need/have a service animal is like asking to see somebody's medical record.


(This post was edited by richardvg03 on Mar 3, 2014, 10:56 PM)


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 9:35 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:

Actually, I was thinking that not everyone with a disability needs a service dog.

You seem to have an aggressive nature on this forum. Since you had ignored the question multiple times I was assuming it was more complicated than you lost your legs.

Busted left knee
Torn abdominal walls
Two slipped disks
One cracked vertebae
Scoliosis
Jammed neck
dislocated left shoulder
Traumatic Brain Injury
and you guessed it… Post Traumatic Stress… I'd let you look through my medical records and review my many surgeries but I don't feel like turning my 18inch thick record into a PDF… and I don't care to fax it over either :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliij5Km95U

My dog does a lot for me. He has around 65 different commands.

My actions/tone/(typing) aren't aggressive… they're blunt. :)


theguy


Mar 3, 2014, 10:22 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
My dog:

[image]http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh112/richardvg03/1460075_10202691730244226_325474153_n.jpg[/image]

Since you're looking for affirmation, yup, definitely bring a dog that's trained to attack people to the crag: it's a great idea.


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 10:26 PM
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theguy wrote:

Since you're looking for affirmation, yup, definitely bring a dog that's trained to attack people to the crag: it's a great idea.


That's almost as ignorant as saying, "Oh no! You're trained to kill people! Help!! Help!! This guy is trained to kill people!!! Don't let him near the children!!!"

You obviously don't understand working dogs…but that's OK! :) You're going to be fine… just don't make eye contact with the dog! :)


Keep 'em coming guys!




(This post was edited by richardvg03 on Mar 3, 2014, 10:31 PM)


Shroom


Mar 3, 2014, 10:45 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Actually, I was thinking that not everyone with a disability needs a service dog.

You seem to have an aggressive nature on this forum. Since you had ignored the question multiple times I was assuming it was more complicated than you lost your legs.

Busted left knee
Torn abdominal walls
Two slipped disks
One cracked vertebae
Scoliosis
Jammed neck
dislocated left shoulder
Traumatic Brain Injury
and you guessed it… Post Traumatic Stress… I'd let you look through my medical records and review my many surgeries but I don't feel like turning my 18inch thick record into a PDF… and I don't care to fax it over either :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliij5Km95U

My dog does a lot for me. He has around 65 different commands.

My actions/tone/(typing) aren't aggressive… they're blunt. :)

Actually, your posts are self aggrandizing and obnoxious.

In one post you bemoan people asking about med records, and in the very next post you lay down a poor, poor me laundry list of ailments. What reaction are you looking for, pity? You got it from me, but not for the reason you may think.

You are clearly going to bring your dog to make a point now, and damn everyone who disagrees. Good for you, I guess your traumatic brain injury doesn't effect your common sense or courtesy. Or does it?


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 10:54 PM
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Re: [Shroom] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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Shroom wrote:
You are clearly going to bring your dog to make a point now, and damn everyone who disagrees. Good for you, I guess your traumatic brain injury doesn't effect your common sense or courtesy. Or does it?

Nah, I'm getting a friend to watch my dog for me. No reason to leave 15k tied to a tree and hope it's still there when you get back.

…and since you asked… here's an article you might enjoy http://www.psychologytoday.com/...nality-change-part-i


theguy


Mar 3, 2014, 10:58 PM
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richardvg03 wrote:
"This guy is trained to kill people!!! Don't let him near the children!!!"

You obviously don't understand working dogs…but that's OK! :) You're going to be fine… just don't make eye contact with the dog! :)

Guess the RAF was worried about eye contact too.

Be a real shame if the person defends himself and you're out $15k.


richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 11:03 PM
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Shroom wrote:

In one post you bemoan people asking about med records, and in the very next post you lay down a poor, poor me laundry list of ailments. What reaction are you looking for, pity? You got it from me, but not for the reason you may think.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I was merely explaining that asking what a service dog does is like asking to see a persons medical records. Now… I don't mind if you ask me to see my medical records. However, the next guy might. As a disabilities liaison i find it necessary and appropriate to educate people on this. I definitely don't seek anybody's pity for my injuries. I didn't know making a simple list of injuries that answer a question could imply the want or desire of pity. I wasn't really looking for a reaction at all as I was simply answering the question. If I was looking for pity I'd probably say something about my childhood seeing that's what the movies use… or maybe something about my cat running away. It's some sad stuff when cats run away!! :)





richardvg03


Mar 3, 2014, 11:07 PM
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theguy wrote:

Be a real shame if the person defends himself and you're out $15k.

Damn! With his bare hands! That's hardcore!


meanandugly


Mar 4, 2014, 3:08 AM
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You're fitting in just fine.


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 4:47 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Actually, I was thinking that not everyone with a disability needs a service dog.

You seem to have an aggressive nature on this forum. Since you had ignored the question multiple times I was assuming it was more complicated than you lost your legs.

Busted left knee
Torn abdominal walls
Two slipped disks
One cracked vertebae
Scoliosis
Jammed neck
dislocated left shoulder
Traumatic Brain Injury
and you guessed it… Post Traumatic Stress… I'd let you look through my medical records and review my many surgeries but I don't feel like turning my 18inch thick record into a PDF… and I don't care to fax it over either :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliij5Km95U

My dog does a lot for me. He has around 65 different commands.

My actions/tone/(typing) aren't aggressive… they're blunt. :)

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 5:41 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
happiegrrrl wrote:
Yes, it could be. But the main thing it is, is personal.

I'm sure people don't think they are being rude with the inquiry, maybe are interested in knowing about the many awesome ways dogs can help people, but it is impolite to put a person on the spot n this situation.

Thank you!

Asking somebody why they need/have a service animal is like asking to see somebody's medical record.

Yes and when you bring your service dog anywhere you need to have a license explaining why you need said service dog available for inspection.

I'm sorry if you where offended by my asking about your medical need for a service dog.


Partner happiegrrrl


Mar 4, 2014, 6:02 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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Not true

In reply to:
Service Dogs must be allowed to go anywhere their handler goes, including
restaurants, schools, buses, taxis, airplanes, stores, movie theatres, concerts,
sporting events, doctor's offices, and any other public place. It is REQUIRED under
federal and state laws that they be allowed. They do not have to wear any specific
identifying gear, including vests. Many Service Dog users choose to dress their
dogs in a vest or other identifying apparel in order to make access easier, as it
avoids many questions and confrontations. This is a personal choice, and is NOT
REQUIRED UNDER THE LAW. It is illegal to ask for any special identification
from Service Dog partners. Some carry ID cards, and may present them voluntarily,
but this also is not required, and should not be expected. You may NOT ask for
"proof" or certification of the dog's training as a condition of entry into your
business.
http://www.servicedogssavelives.org/laws.html



The old boys(and girl) club of rc.com is doing what it does best - Circling the wagons an One-Starring!


Edit; I think theft is pretty unlikely. Could it happen? Yes, I suppose. Does the risk of that possibility outweigh the benefits of having your dog available to do his service? That is something only you can decide.


(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Mar 4, 2014, 6:12 AM)


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 6:36 AM
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You are correct Happy.

Although there is an odd bit of legislation interpretation that my climbing buddy has run into with his service dog.


You can't ask for an ID card for the service animal BUT you're allowed to require the owner of the service animal to show proof that said animal is a trained service animal. Odd I know but many states use this interpretation of service animal legislation including where I live in Minnesota.

http://mn.gov/...service_animals.html

http://www.helpingpaws.org/...ervice-dog-laws.html


Please keep in mind that I'm not agreeing with this interpretation of the legislation ,in fact I think it's a gross manipulation of the current laws. Nor am I saying that OP use of a service dog isn't legitimate.

Edit to add link.


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Mar 4, 2014, 6:48 AM)


olderic


Mar 4, 2014, 6:48 AM
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theguy wrote:
Be a real shame if the person defends himself and you're out $15k.


I'd guess it's more likely our (taxpayers) $15K


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 6:52 AM
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Yeah let's leave the OP's service animal alone, I don't have that much money to throw around. Tongue


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:15 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:19 AM
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chadnsc wrote:

Yes and when you bring your service dog anywhere you need to have a license explaining why you need said service dog available for inspection.

There's no such thing as a "service animal license you ignorant idiot!! :)

http://www.ada.gov/...ice_animals_2010.htm





chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:22 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)


Calm down Rich.

You seem to be an intelligent person so you had to have know that showing a picture of an attack dog that looks very similar to your service dog would lead to such a reaction.

Don't let your PTSD find an outlet online. Despite it's apparent anonymity it's not a healthy coping mechanism and it's no different than acting this way to someone in person.

Take care of yourself man and thank you for serving.


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:23 AM
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olderic wrote:

I'd guess it's more likely our (taxpayers) $15K

Actually... I purchased him myself. With MY money.




granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 7:24 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.


olderic


Mar 4, 2014, 7:27 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.

Pictures of Hugh are easy to find


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:28 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:

You seem to be an intelligent person so you had to have know that showing a picture of an attack dog that looks very similar to your service dog would lead to such a reaction.

She was referencing the picture of the double-amputee. She assumed THAT picture was me.

I'm calm. Just because I call somebody a dumb ass doesn't mean I'm upset or raising my voice. It just means I'm pointing out that that individual is, from my point of view, being a dumb ass.

Now the picture of my dog doing schutzhund bite work. That's my dog! :) He's full blood GSD and we do lots of agility and schutzhund work on him. He's a beautiful animal! :)

I have my PTSD in check (thanks for looking out though brother)... I just can't believe I've gotten these idiots to respond so much. I think I'm up to 51 replies on this thread and I'm just trying to see how high I can get it...but at the same time... I'm also trying to educate them. I feel it's my civil duty to add links from the ADA explaining the laws and what not.

Just another public service I provide! #neverstopserving


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:36 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:

Yes and when you bring your service dog anywhere you need to have a license explaining why you need said service dog available for inspection.

There's no such thing as a "service animal license you ignorant idiot!! :)

http://www.ada.gov/...ice_animals_2010.htm


[image]http://fc02.deviantart.net/images/i/2003/3/1/b/A_nice_cup_of_shut_the_fuck_up.jpg[/image]

I know there isn't but that won't stop people from asking you for one (as they incorrectly interpret the legislation). This is a way for business owners to get you to show proof that your dog is a legitimate service dog (aka medical papers). Of course the business owner has no legal right to ask for such medical explanation but the current legislation allows this loop hole.

The irony of this is that even if the police are called most don't understand the ADA and will see the reasoning of the business owner in asking for a 'license', not the person using the service animal who says 'I don't have to show you nothin' and your only recourse is to leave and then contact the ADA to sue said business.

That's how the ADA is enforced through after the incident litigation, aka you sue the person who's not in compliance.

It's much easier, albeit frustrating, to simply have your papers showing your dogs training and your medical need for a service animal on you to stop the issue in it's tracks.

EDIT TO ADD:
I speak from personal experience in this matter.


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Mar 4, 2014, 7:40 AM)


lena_chita
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Mar 4, 2014, 7:37 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.


Does everyone has such short memories? Nobody remembers richardvg03 persona from his last stint on RC.com? Tongue


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:41 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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I do but I'm just trying help a bother out get his PC up.


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:42 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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No problem Rich.

Say what weapons platform did you use the most while on duty?


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 7:52 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:

You seem to be an intelligent person so you had to have know that showing a picture of an attack dog that looks very similar to your service dog would lead to such a reaction.

She was referencing the picture of the double-amputee. She assumed THAT picture was me.

I'm calm. Just because I call somebody a dumb ass doesn't mean I'm upset or raising my voice. It just means I'm pointing out that that individual is, from my point of view, being a dumb ass.

Now the picture of my dog doing schutzhund bite work. That's my dog! :) He's full blood GSD and we do lots of agility and schutzhund work on him. He's a beautiful animal! :)

I have my PTSD in check (thanks for looking out though brother)... I just can't believe I've gotten these idiots to respond so much. I think I'm up to 51 replies on this thread and I'm just trying to see how high I can get it...but at the same time... I'm also trying to educate them. I feel it's my civil duty to add links from the ADA explaining the laws and what not.

Just another public service I provide! #neverstopserving

Wow, you just keep going, don't you.

Yeah, I feel a little silly that I was duped by the photo, but you have to admit that your post was a little misleading. I think it's insulting that you are comparing yourself to someone who is a double amputee. My laundry list of injuries is as bas as yours, if not worse, but I'm still 100% intact (even if my body really hurts sometimes).


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 7:57 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.


Does everyone has such short memories? Nobody remembers richardvg03 persona from his last stint on RC.com? Tongue

I do, but I don't remember it being this bad.


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:59 AM
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You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 8:01 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!

I'm here for the entertainment.


lena_chita
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Mar 4, 2014, 8:04 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
My personal opinion on leaving your dog at the base while you go up the cliff for the day: the dog will probably be okay, but it's pretty selfish for you to do that. It's pretty close to tossing your dog outside at night assuming it'll take care of itself. It probably will, until it gets hit by a car.

The dog was trained to serve you. You are it's world, no matter how professional the situation. The dog is there to take care of you, you should return the favor and take care of your dog properly.

Back to the dog discussion. Here is a theoretical.

Scenario 1: a climber brings an extremely well trained and temperamentally-calm dog with him for a weekend of climbing. Out of that entire weekend, the dog is left alone, in the shade, with a bowl of water, for about 3-4 hours, while the owner climbs a 4-5 pitch multi-pitch climb. We are not talking about epic big walls here, if you look at the OP. For the rest of the weekend, the dog is with her owner, there is hiking to and from the climbing involved, probably plenty of chances to explore around the campsite, and plenty of human interaction, including, probably curling up next to her human to sleep...

Scenario 2: a climber decides that he is not going to take his dog with him for the weekend. He has no family or friends in town who can watch the dog, so he checks her into a boarding kennel, a new one, because he has never had to do this before. The dog is left there for the weekend. Realistically, for 3 day,s because he has to check her in on Friday afternoon, and he is getting back tool ate on Sunday to get her, so it would be Monday, before the dog and the owner are reunited.

Do you seriously think that the first scenario is THAT much more stressful for the dog? For the dog that is calm, and trained to do this sort of thing? Sure, kennels have to keep the animals reasonably happy, and the dog will be safe and fed, but she is probably going to spend most of the time indoors, and without individual attention, and in an unfamiliar situation, and missing her owner for the entire weekend, instead of 3-4 hours.


Maybe it is my background, growing up in a place where most dogs were working dogs, expected to do their job, and kept outside, instead of beloved pets sharing the owner's bed, but I honestly don't see a problem with the first scenario.

Herding dogs always slept outside. Hunting dogs slept outside. Guard gods slept outside. Search and rescue dogs slept outside. And people didn't usually have multiple dogs, so it wasn't like the dogs had each others' company... And yes, I suppose they could run out into the street and get hit by a car, or be attacked by a mountain lion. But somehow they never did run randomly into the street, they weren't that stupid, and mountain lions weren't absconding with one dog per night, either. And if they had "feelings" about being sad to be left outside at night, they never showed it. Or people weren't looking for those feelings, because, hey, this was a dog, not a human. This dog had a job, and did it well, and was affectionate and safe around kids (except for chained guard dogs or fighting dogs), and happy to have human attention, and loyal, but still, just a dog.

I really don't think dogs are fundamentally different here. Some breeds are simply not equipped to handle the harsh outside conditions, and some are way too stupid, because they weren't bred for their smarts, and obviously the very small dogs have more predators that could harm them. But the majority of dogs are what they are because of how they were raised and trained, including having "feelings" about being left alone in a cool shady spot for couple hours.

I personally don't have a dog, because the only kind of dog i would like to have is a large dog that needs plenty of outdoor time and exercise, and I would not feel right about having the dog locked inside the house while i went to work every day. But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 8:24 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
My personal opinion on leaving your dog at the base while you go up the cliff for the day: the dog will probably be okay, but it's pretty selfish for you to do that. It's pretty close to tossing your dog outside at night assuming it'll take care of itself. It probably will, until it gets hit by a car.

The dog was trained to serve you. You are it's world, no matter how professional the situation. The dog is there to take care of you, you should return the favor and take care of your dog properly.

Back to the dog discussion. Here is a theoretical.

Scenario 1: a climber brings an extremely well trained and temperamentally-calm dog with him for a weekend of climbing. Out of that entire weekend, the dog is left alone, in the shade, with a bowl of water, for about 3-4 hours, while the owner climbs a 4-5 pitch multi-pitch climb. We are not talking about epic big walls here, if you look at the OP. For the rest of the weekend, the dog is with her owner, there is hiking to and from the climbing involved, probably plenty of chances to explore around the campsite, and plenty of human interaction, including, probably curling up next to her human to sleep...

Scenario 2: a climber decides that he is not going to take his dog with him for the weekend. He has no family or friends in town who can watch the dog, so he checks her into a boarding kennel, a new one, because he has never had to do this before. The dog is left there for the weekend. Realistically, for 3 day,s because he has to check her in on Friday afternoon, and he is getting back tool ate on Sunday to get her, so it would be Monday, before the dog and the owner are reunited.

Do you seriously think that the first scenario is THAT much more stressful for the dog? For the dog that is calm, and trained to do this sort of thing? Sure, kennels have to keep the animals reasonably happy, and the dog will be safe and fed, but she is probably going to spend most of the time indoors, and without individual attention, and in an unfamiliar situation, and missing her owner for the entire weekend, instead of 3-4 hours.


Maybe it is my background, growing up in a place where most dogs were working dogs, expected to do their job, and kept outside, instead of beloved pets sharing the owner's bed, but I honestly don't see a problem with the first scenario.

Herding dogs always slept outside. Hunting dogs slept outside. Guard gods slept outside. Search and rescue dogs slept outside. And people didn't usually have multiple dogs, so it wasn't like the dogs had each others' company... And yes, I suppose they could run out into the street and get hit by a car, or be attacked by a mountain lion. But somehow they never did run randomly into the street, they weren't that stupid, and mountain lions weren't absconding with one dog per night, either. And if they had "feelings" about being sad to be left outside at night, they never showed it. Or people weren't looking for those feelings, because, hey, this was a dog, not a human. This dog had a job, and did it well, and was affectionate and safe around kids (except for chained guard dogs or fighting dogs), and happy to have human attention, and loyal, but still, just a dog.

I really don't think dogs are fundamentally different here. Some breeds are simply not equipped to handle the harsh outside conditions, and some are way too stupid, because they weren't bred for their smarts, and obviously the very small dogs have more predators that could harm them. But the majority of dogs are what they are because of how they were raised and trained, including having "feelings" about being left alone in a cool shady spot for couple hours.

I personally don't have a dog, because the only kind of dog i would like to have is a large dog that needs plenty of outdoor time and exercise, and I would not feel right about having the dog locked inside the house while i went to work every day. But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?

I grew up with a Collie, we left him outsde all the time overnight. He came home with porcupine needles in the face a couple of times, but generally he was okay. He wasn't fixed though and must have been wandering around looking for some tail when he got hit by a car. For 8 years he was fine wandering like this, and then he wasn't.

I think the OPs dog won't wander into traffic, and the best thing to do is to leave it at the base of the cliff unleashed so it could get away from things that was bothering it if he did bring it (a dog trained like that isn't likely to wander off). But at the same time there are a huge number of unknowns in this equation.

What about other dogs (you know how awesome everyone else is with their dogs at the cliff). Another likely senerio is having a mini epic. I've had days when I thought I'd be off the ground for onl 3 hours and gotten back on the ground 8 hours later. This could be as simple as getting off route, or as complicated as the OP or his partner getting hurt.

My point is that he has a commitment to his dog. This is a working do, but a lot more than a farm dog. Yes, the dog will most likely be fine, but the OP doesn't have to spend his days doing multipitch. If this is his passion and he's not willing to change it then he maybe shouldn't have gotten this dog in the first place.




btw - this is the reason I own a cat. I just leave him at home with his automatic feeder.


csproul


Mar 4, 2014, 8:34 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?
My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.


(This post was edited by csproul on Mar 4, 2014, 8:34 AM)


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 8:40 AM
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Re: [csproul] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?
My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.

there should be a big difference between a trained service dog and most other dogs. A service dog has to be of an appropriate temperment, which would be calm and collected.

I still think it's unfair to leave the dog at the base of a route unattended of 8 hours though, regardless of it's temperment.


lena_chita
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Mar 4, 2014, 9:01 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
csproul wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?
My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.

there should be a big difference between a trained service dog and most other dogs. A service dog has to be of an appropriate temperment, which would be calm and collected.

I still think it's unfair to leave the dog at the base of a route unattended of 8 hours though, regardless of it's temperment.

I don't think it is "fair" exactly. But this is a service dog. Service dogs have to do all sorts of things that are not "fair" as part of their job. Is it 'fair' that the dog can't go play with those kids that are throwing frisbee on the lawn, and has to sit next to her blind owner for several hours, while he was overcome by fatigue and fell asleep in his wheelchair? Is it "fair" that a dog is sent to sniff for explosives, or sent into the collapsed building, with a potential of the dog being killed, to look for survivors of an earthquake?

If there are options available that don't involve the dog being left alone for a day (I still don't think it is 8 hours for couple pitches, but O.K.), those options would be preferable.

It would be great, for example, if the OP had a friend who was not a climber, but came along to hang out with his bro, and took the dog for a long hike while Rich climbed.

It would be great if Rich's girlfriend thought that the definition of heaven is sitting in the shade reading a book for the afternoon, and stayed there right next to the dog.

It would be great if his friends were doing some single-pitch cragging while he did multi-pitch day, and took the dog for a day.

But if it is a service dog, and if the OP can't leave it for the entire weekend, because he needs his dog to, I don't know, fall asleep without drugs? And if there isn't anyone else to sit there with the dog, or take the dog while he climbs? Then I guess the dog will have to do the unfair thing. And in the grand scheme of things, it is not THAT unfair for the dog that is temperamentally suited for it.


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 9:20 AM
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chadnsc wrote:

That's how the ADA is enforced through after the incident litigation, aka you sue the person who's not in compliance.

It's much easier, albeit frustrating, to simply have your papers showing your dogs training and your medical need for a service animal on you to stop the issue in it's tracks.

I'm part of a coalition that is working on some legislation to try and remedy this. Everything you say is completely accurate. Pretty much the only thing you can do is sue or just leave. That's why I make sure my dog is in his harness most the time so I don't run into this issue.


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 9:23 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:

I think it's insulting that you are comparing yourself to someone who is a double amputee. My laundry list of injuries is as bas as yours, if not worse, but I'm still 100% intact (even if my body really hurts sometimes).


I'm not comparing myself to anybody and on top of that I have a few friends with gold medals in the olympics who are missing limbs. Just because a person is missing a limb doesn't mean their injury is worse to yours or anybody else's. You're never going to get a gold medal in much of anything (of course this is me assuming) and my buddies who DO have gold medals don't even consider themselves disabled.

Educate yourself son! :)

http://www.engadget.com/...ified-from-olympics/


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 9:24 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 9:30 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
csproul wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?
My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.

there should be a big difference between a trained service dog and most other dogs. A service dog has to be of an appropriate temperment, which would be calm and collected.

I still think it's unfair to leave the dog at the base of a route unattended of 8 hours though, regardless of it's temperment.

I don't think it is "fair" exactly. But this is a service dog. Service dogs have to do all sorts of things that are not "fair" as part of their job. Is it 'fair' that the dog can't go play with those kids that are throwing frisbee on the lawn, and has to sit next to her blind owner for several hours, while he was overcome by fatigue and fell asleep in his wheelchair? Is it "fair" that a dog is sent to sniff for explosives, or sent into the collapsed building, with a potential of the dog being killed, to look for survivors of an earthquake?

If there are options available that don't involve the dog being left alone for a day (I still don't think it is 8 hours for couple pitches, but O.K.), those options would be preferable.

It would be great, for example, if the OP had a friend who was not a climber, but came along to hang out with his bro, and took the dog for a long hike while Rich climbed.

It would be great if Rich's girlfriend thought that the definition of heaven is sitting in the shade reading a book for the afternoon, and stayed there right next to the dog.

It would be great if his friends were doing some single-pitch cragging while he did multi-pitch day, and took the dog for a day.

But if it is a service dog, and if the OP can't leave it for the entire weekend, because he needs his dog to, I don't know, fall asleep without drugs? And if there isn't anyone else to sit there with the dog, or take the dog while he climbs? Then I guess the dog will have to do the unfair thing. And in the grand scheme of things, it is not THAT unfair for the dog that is temperamentally suited for it.


Good post, with a pile of VERY good suggestions. I would agree with the idea to try to find other options with the dog and on the rare occasion leave the dog at the base while you go off to climb a few pitches.

I think what myself, and like a number of other posters are picturing is that this would be a regular thing.


Oh, and the 8 hour thing is just from your post about leaving the dog alone while you're at work. Though the OP does was saying 5-7 pitch route in the first post, not a 2-3 pitch route, which could easily take 8 hours depending on the party.


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 9:45 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:

That's how the ADA is enforced through after the incident litigation, aka you sue the person who's not in compliance.

It's much easier, albeit frustrating, to simply have your papers showing your dogs training and your medical need for a service animal on you to stop the issue in it's tracks.

I'm part of a coalition that is working on some legislation to try and remedy this. Everything you say is completely accurate. Pretty much the only thing you can do is sue or just leave. That's why I make sure my dog is in his harness most the time so I don't run into this issue.


That's awesome. Please if you need any help with this I'd like to get involved.


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 9:49 AM
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richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)

Yeah but this troll has actually created some good discussion about service animals and not letting a disability dictate what you can do.

Also you owned GG and that was funny.


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 9:52 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)

Yeah but this troll has actually created some good discussion about service animals and not letting a disability dictate what you can do.

Also you owned GG and that was funny.

I can see you're getting sized up for the troll suit yourself!


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 9:59 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:

I can see you're getting sized up for the troll suit yourself!

…and we ALL see that you're falling for it… AGAIN. Unimpressed


Partner cracklover


Mar 4, 2014, 10:03 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)

Yeah but this troll has actually created some good discussion about service animals and not letting a disability dictate what you can do.

Also you owned GG and that was funny.

Perhaps, but there are lots of ways to troll. Posing as having a serious question and then poking the people who respond is all well and good (albeit not very friendly). But flinging insults and calling most of them names while you're at it? Have you read any of the stuff Jeff (the new owner) has posted? Based on my reading of it, you're not likely to be able to have fun here for very long if you keep up that tack. And that would be a shame.

Cheers,

GO


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 10:04 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:

I can see you're getting sized up for the troll suit yourself!

It's RC.com, this entire site is a troll. You can't take much here seriously what with the post count increase threads and lack of any real content.


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 10:06 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)

Yeah but this troll has actually created some good discussion about service animals and not letting a disability dictate what you can do.

Also you owned GG and that was funny.

Perhaps, but there are lots of ways to troll. Posing as having a serious question and then poking the people who respond is all well and good (albeit not very friendly). But flinging insults and calling most of them names while you're at it? Have you read any of the stuff Jeff (the new owner) has posted? Based on my reading of it, you're not likely to be able to have fun here for very long if you keep up that tack. And that would be a shame.

Cheers,

GO

I assume you're speaking to Rich and not to me.

I agree that Rich did get yippy with his name calling; that's why I attempted to politely call him out on it.


dr_feelgood


Mar 5, 2014, 10:55 AM
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Posts: 25818

Re: [cracklover] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)

Yeah but this troll has actually created some good discussion about service animals and not letting a disability dictate what you can do.

Also you owned GG and that was funny.

Perhaps, but there are lots of ways to troll. Posing as having a serious question and then poking the people who respond is all well and good (albeit not very friendly). But flinging insults and calling most of them names while you're at it? Have you read any of the stuff Jeff (the new owner) has posted? Based on my reading of it, you're not likely to be able to have fun here for very long if you keep up that tack. And that would be a shame.

Cheers,

GO

Agree to disagree.


richardvg03


Mar 5, 2014, 3:33 PM
Post #85 of 87 (579 views)
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Re: [dr_feelgood] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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dr_feelgood wrote:

Agree to disagree.


^^I'm with this guy! It's fairly obvious that richardvg03's presence here lowers the extremely high standards that the members of RC.com have!

This is for you Dr. Feelgood!




carabiner96


Mar 5, 2014, 4:56 PM
Post #86 of 87 (572 views)
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Posts: 12549

Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:

I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.


To the rest of you who are not completely apeshit stupid and understand what a dog is... Thank you for your responses. I think my dog will be just fine but I wanted to run it across the community first.

It sounds like you made up your mind before you even posted.


carabiner96


Mar 5, 2014, 5:02 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.


Does everyone has such short memories? Nobody remembers richardvg03 persona from his last stint on RC.com? Tongue

Damn, I fell for it right away.


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