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olderic


Mar 4, 2014, 6:48 AM
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Re: [theguy] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:
Be a real shame if the person defends himself and you're out $15k.


I'd guess it's more likely our (taxpayers) $15K


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 6:52 AM
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Re: [olderic] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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Yeah let's leave the OP's service animal alone, I don't have that much money to throw around. Tongue


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:15 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:19 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:

Yes and when you bring your service dog anywhere you need to have a license explaining why you need said service dog available for inspection.

There's no such thing as a "service animal license you ignorant idiot!! :)

http://www.ada.gov/...ice_animals_2010.htm





chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:22 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)


Calm down Rich.

You seem to be an intelligent person so you had to have know that showing a picture of an attack dog that looks very similar to your service dog would lead to such a reaction.

Don't let your PTSD find an outlet online. Despite it's apparent anonymity it's not a healthy coping mechanism and it's no different than acting this way to someone in person.

Take care of yourself man and thank you for serving.


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:23 AM
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Re: [olderic] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:

I'd guess it's more likely our (taxpayers) $15K

Actually... I purchased him myself. With MY money.




granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 7:24 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.


olderic


Mar 4, 2014, 7:27 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.

Pictures of Hugh are easy to find


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 7:28 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:

You seem to be an intelligent person so you had to have know that showing a picture of an attack dog that looks very similar to your service dog would lead to such a reaction.

She was referencing the picture of the double-amputee. She assumed THAT picture was me.

I'm calm. Just because I call somebody a dumb ass doesn't mean I'm upset or raising my voice. It just means I'm pointing out that that individual is, from my point of view, being a dumb ass.

Now the picture of my dog doing schutzhund bite work. That's my dog! :) He's full blood GSD and we do lots of agility and schutzhund work on him. He's a beautiful animal! :)

I have my PTSD in check (thanks for looking out though brother)... I just can't believe I've gotten these idiots to respond so much. I think I'm up to 51 replies on this thread and I'm just trying to see how high I can get it...but at the same time... I'm also trying to educate them. I feel it's my civil duty to add links from the ADA explaining the laws and what not.

Just another public service I provide! #neverstopserving


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:36 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:

Yes and when you bring your service dog anywhere you need to have a license explaining why you need said service dog available for inspection.

There's no such thing as a "service animal license you ignorant idiot!! :)

http://www.ada.gov/...ice_animals_2010.htm


[image]http://fc02.deviantart.net/images/i/2003/3/1/b/A_nice_cup_of_shut_the_fuck_up.jpg[/image]

I know there isn't but that won't stop people from asking you for one (as they incorrectly interpret the legislation). This is a way for business owners to get you to show proof that your dog is a legitimate service dog (aka medical papers). Of course the business owner has no legal right to ask for such medical explanation but the current legislation allows this loop hole.

The irony of this is that even if the police are called most don't understand the ADA and will see the reasoning of the business owner in asking for a 'license', not the person using the service animal who says 'I don't have to show you nothin' and your only recourse is to leave and then contact the ADA to sue said business.

That's how the ADA is enforced through after the incident litigation, aka you sue the person who's not in compliance.

It's much easier, albeit frustrating, to simply have your papers showing your dogs training and your medical need for a service animal on you to stop the issue in it's tracks.

EDIT TO ADD:
I speak from personal experience in this matter.


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Mar 4, 2014, 7:40 AM)


lena_chita
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Mar 4, 2014, 7:37 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.


Does everyone has such short memories? Nobody remembers richardvg03 persona from his last stint on RC.com? Tongue


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:41 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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I do but I'm just trying help a bother out get his PC up.


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:42 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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No problem Rich.

Say what weapons platform did you use the most while on duty?


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 7:52 AM
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Re: [richardvg03] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
chadnsc wrote:

You seem to be an intelligent person so you had to have know that showing a picture of an attack dog that looks very similar to your service dog would lead to such a reaction.

She was referencing the picture of the double-amputee. She assumed THAT picture was me.

I'm calm. Just because I call somebody a dumb ass doesn't mean I'm upset or raising my voice. It just means I'm pointing out that that individual is, from my point of view, being a dumb ass.

Now the picture of my dog doing schutzhund bite work. That's my dog! :) He's full blood GSD and we do lots of agility and schutzhund work on him. He's a beautiful animal! :)

I have my PTSD in check (thanks for looking out though brother)... I just can't believe I've gotten these idiots to respond so much. I think I'm up to 51 replies on this thread and I'm just trying to see how high I can get it...but at the same time... I'm also trying to educate them. I feel it's my civil duty to add links from the ADA explaining the laws and what not.

Just another public service I provide! #neverstopserving

Wow, you just keep going, don't you.

Yeah, I feel a little silly that I was duped by the photo, but you have to admit that your post was a little misleading. I think it's insulting that you are comparing yourself to someone who is a double amputee. My laundry list of injuries is as bas as yours, if not worse, but I'm still 100% intact (even if my body really hurts sometimes).


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 7:57 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
richardvg03 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.


Does everyone has such short memories? Nobody remembers richardvg03 persona from his last stint on RC.com? Tongue

I do, but I don't remember it being this bad.


chadnsc


Mar 4, 2014, 7:59 AM
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You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 8:01 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!

I'm here for the entertainment.


lena_chita
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Mar 4, 2014, 8:04 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
My personal opinion on leaving your dog at the base while you go up the cliff for the day: the dog will probably be okay, but it's pretty selfish for you to do that. It's pretty close to tossing your dog outside at night assuming it'll take care of itself. It probably will, until it gets hit by a car.

The dog was trained to serve you. You are it's world, no matter how professional the situation. The dog is there to take care of you, you should return the favor and take care of your dog properly.

Back to the dog discussion. Here is a theoretical.

Scenario 1: a climber brings an extremely well trained and temperamentally-calm dog with him for a weekend of climbing. Out of that entire weekend, the dog is left alone, in the shade, with a bowl of water, for about 3-4 hours, while the owner climbs a 4-5 pitch multi-pitch climb. We are not talking about epic big walls here, if you look at the OP. For the rest of the weekend, the dog is with her owner, there is hiking to and from the climbing involved, probably plenty of chances to explore around the campsite, and plenty of human interaction, including, probably curling up next to her human to sleep...

Scenario 2: a climber decides that he is not going to take his dog with him for the weekend. He has no family or friends in town who can watch the dog, so he checks her into a boarding kennel, a new one, because he has never had to do this before. The dog is left there for the weekend. Realistically, for 3 day,s because he has to check her in on Friday afternoon, and he is getting back tool ate on Sunday to get her, so it would be Monday, before the dog and the owner are reunited.

Do you seriously think that the first scenario is THAT much more stressful for the dog? For the dog that is calm, and trained to do this sort of thing? Sure, kennels have to keep the animals reasonably happy, and the dog will be safe and fed, but she is probably going to spend most of the time indoors, and without individual attention, and in an unfamiliar situation, and missing her owner for the entire weekend, instead of 3-4 hours.


Maybe it is my background, growing up in a place where most dogs were working dogs, expected to do their job, and kept outside, instead of beloved pets sharing the owner's bed, but I honestly don't see a problem with the first scenario.

Herding dogs always slept outside. Hunting dogs slept outside. Guard gods slept outside. Search and rescue dogs slept outside. And people didn't usually have multiple dogs, so it wasn't like the dogs had each others' company... And yes, I suppose they could run out into the street and get hit by a car, or be attacked by a mountain lion. But somehow they never did run randomly into the street, they weren't that stupid, and mountain lions weren't absconding with one dog per night, either. And if they had "feelings" about being sad to be left outside at night, they never showed it. Or people weren't looking for those feelings, because, hey, this was a dog, not a human. This dog had a job, and did it well, and was affectionate and safe around kids (except for chained guard dogs or fighting dogs), and happy to have human attention, and loyal, but still, just a dog.

I really don't think dogs are fundamentally different here. Some breeds are simply not equipped to handle the harsh outside conditions, and some are way too stupid, because they weren't bred for their smarts, and obviously the very small dogs have more predators that could harm them. But the majority of dogs are what they are because of how they were raised and trained, including having "feelings" about being left alone in a cool shady spot for couple hours.

I personally don't have a dog, because the only kind of dog i would like to have is a large dog that needs plenty of outdoor time and exercise, and I would not feel right about having the dog locked inside the house while i went to work every day. But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 8:24 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
My personal opinion on leaving your dog at the base while you go up the cliff for the day: the dog will probably be okay, but it's pretty selfish for you to do that. It's pretty close to tossing your dog outside at night assuming it'll take care of itself. It probably will, until it gets hit by a car.

The dog was trained to serve you. You are it's world, no matter how professional the situation. The dog is there to take care of you, you should return the favor and take care of your dog properly.

Back to the dog discussion. Here is a theoretical.

Scenario 1: a climber brings an extremely well trained and temperamentally-calm dog with him for a weekend of climbing. Out of that entire weekend, the dog is left alone, in the shade, with a bowl of water, for about 3-4 hours, while the owner climbs a 4-5 pitch multi-pitch climb. We are not talking about epic big walls here, if you look at the OP. For the rest of the weekend, the dog is with her owner, there is hiking to and from the climbing involved, probably plenty of chances to explore around the campsite, and plenty of human interaction, including, probably curling up next to her human to sleep...

Scenario 2: a climber decides that he is not going to take his dog with him for the weekend. He has no family or friends in town who can watch the dog, so he checks her into a boarding kennel, a new one, because he has never had to do this before. The dog is left there for the weekend. Realistically, for 3 day,s because he has to check her in on Friday afternoon, and he is getting back tool ate on Sunday to get her, so it would be Monday, before the dog and the owner are reunited.

Do you seriously think that the first scenario is THAT much more stressful for the dog? For the dog that is calm, and trained to do this sort of thing? Sure, kennels have to keep the animals reasonably happy, and the dog will be safe and fed, but she is probably going to spend most of the time indoors, and without individual attention, and in an unfamiliar situation, and missing her owner for the entire weekend, instead of 3-4 hours.


Maybe it is my background, growing up in a place where most dogs were working dogs, expected to do their job, and kept outside, instead of beloved pets sharing the owner's bed, but I honestly don't see a problem with the first scenario.

Herding dogs always slept outside. Hunting dogs slept outside. Guard gods slept outside. Search and rescue dogs slept outside. And people didn't usually have multiple dogs, so it wasn't like the dogs had each others' company... And yes, I suppose they could run out into the street and get hit by a car, or be attacked by a mountain lion. But somehow they never did run randomly into the street, they weren't that stupid, and mountain lions weren't absconding with one dog per night, either. And if they had "feelings" about being sad to be left outside at night, they never showed it. Or people weren't looking for those feelings, because, hey, this was a dog, not a human. This dog had a job, and did it well, and was affectionate and safe around kids (except for chained guard dogs or fighting dogs), and happy to have human attention, and loyal, but still, just a dog.

I really don't think dogs are fundamentally different here. Some breeds are simply not equipped to handle the harsh outside conditions, and some are way too stupid, because they weren't bred for their smarts, and obviously the very small dogs have more predators that could harm them. But the majority of dogs are what they are because of how they were raised and trained, including having "feelings" about being left alone in a cool shady spot for couple hours.

I personally don't have a dog, because the only kind of dog i would like to have is a large dog that needs plenty of outdoor time and exercise, and I would not feel right about having the dog locked inside the house while i went to work every day. But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?

I grew up with a Collie, we left him outsde all the time overnight. He came home with porcupine needles in the face a couple of times, but generally he was okay. He wasn't fixed though and must have been wandering around looking for some tail when he got hit by a car. For 8 years he was fine wandering like this, and then he wasn't.

I think the OPs dog won't wander into traffic, and the best thing to do is to leave it at the base of the cliff unleashed so it could get away from things that was bothering it if he did bring it (a dog trained like that isn't likely to wander off). But at the same time there are a huge number of unknowns in this equation.

What about other dogs (you know how awesome everyone else is with their dogs at the cliff). Another likely senerio is having a mini epic. I've had days when I thought I'd be off the ground for onl 3 hours and gotten back on the ground 8 hours later. This could be as simple as getting off route, or as complicated as the OP or his partner getting hurt.

My point is that he has a commitment to his dog. This is a working do, but a lot more than a farm dog. Yes, the dog will most likely be fine, but the OP doesn't have to spend his days doing multipitch. If this is his passion and he's not willing to change it then he maybe shouldn't have gotten this dog in the first place.




btw - this is the reason I own a cat. I just leave him at home with his automatic feeder.


csproul


Mar 4, 2014, 8:34 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?
My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.


(This post was edited by csproul on Mar 4, 2014, 8:34 AM)


granite_grrl


Mar 4, 2014, 8:40 AM
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csproul wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?
My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.

there should be a big difference between a trained service dog and most other dogs. A service dog has to be of an appropriate temperment, which would be calm and collected.

I still think it's unfair to leave the dog at the base of a route unattended of 8 hours though, regardless of it's temperment.


lena_chita
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Mar 4, 2014, 9:01 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
csproul wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?
My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.

there should be a big difference between a trained service dog and most other dogs. A service dog has to be of an appropriate temperment, which would be calm and collected.

I still think it's unfair to leave the dog at the base of a route unattended of 8 hours though, regardless of it's temperment.

I don't think it is "fair" exactly. But this is a service dog. Service dogs have to do all sorts of things that are not "fair" as part of their job. Is it 'fair' that the dog can't go play with those kids that are throwing frisbee on the lawn, and has to sit next to her blind owner for several hours, while he was overcome by fatigue and fell asleep in his wheelchair? Is it "fair" that a dog is sent to sniff for explosives, or sent into the collapsed building, with a potential of the dog being killed, to look for survivors of an earthquake?

If there are options available that don't involve the dog being left alone for a day (I still don't think it is 8 hours for couple pitches, but O.K.), those options would be preferable.

It would be great, for example, if the OP had a friend who was not a climber, but came along to hang out with his bro, and took the dog for a long hike while Rich climbed.

It would be great if Rich's girlfriend thought that the definition of heaven is sitting in the shade reading a book for the afternoon, and stayed there right next to the dog.

It would be great if his friends were doing some single-pitch cragging while he did multi-pitch day, and took the dog for a day.

But if it is a service dog, and if the OP can't leave it for the entire weekend, because he needs his dog to, I don't know, fall asleep without drugs? And if there isn't anyone else to sit there with the dog, or take the dog while he climbs? Then I guess the dog will have to do the unfair thing. And in the grand scheme of things, it is not THAT unfair for the dog that is temperamentally suited for it.


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 9:20 AM
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chadnsc wrote:

That's how the ADA is enforced through after the incident litigation, aka you sue the person who's not in compliance.

It's much easier, albeit frustrating, to simply have your papers showing your dogs training and your medical need for a service animal on you to stop the issue in it's tracks.

I'm part of a coalition that is working on some legislation to try and remedy this. Everything you say is completely accurate. Pretty much the only thing you can do is sue or just leave. That's why I make sure my dog is in his harness most the time so I don't run into this issue.


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 9:23 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:

I think it's insulting that you are comparing yourself to someone who is a double amputee. My laundry list of injuries is as bas as yours, if not worse, but I'm still 100% intact (even if my body really hurts sometimes).


I'm not comparing myself to anybody and on top of that I have a few friends with gold medals in the olympics who are missing limbs. Just because a person is missing a limb doesn't mean their injury is worse to yours or anybody else's. You're never going to get a gold medal in much of anything (of course this is me assuming) and my buddies who DO have gold medals don't even consider themselves disabled.

Educate yourself son! :)

http://www.engadget.com/...ified-from-olympics/


richardvg03


Mar 4, 2014, 9:24 AM
Post #75 of 87 (1397 views)
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Re: [chadnsc] Climbing and my dog? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly? Tongue

Sorry, I had to!


HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)

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