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Chickies Rock is a Cemetary???
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climbinganne


Apr 27, 2003, 6:07 PM
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Chickies Rock is a Cemetary???  (North_America: United_States: Pennsylvania: Southeastern_Region: Chickies_Rock)
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First of all..i am not going to mention names...and i am very sorry to the family and friends of the "referenced" loved one's crosses, i am truly sorry for your loss...

as many of you are aware...a couple, three years ago a young lady died celebrating her birthday on top of chickies rock...although not climbing related we were all saddened by the news of her passing. Soon after her friends and or family erected a cross..bolted it into a strictly TRAD/topropable crag...yes...on a route...


http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182625347

last thanksgiving a young man originally from the area returned home and took his life

three weeks ago, as i was walking by the "cross"...to my AMAZEMENT...there was another one erected...i assumed who it was for..i didn't walk down to the bouldering area to look...i really didnt want to see what i thought my eyes were looking at...yet another cross bolted on the wall... no one wants to climb over a cross!!!

so today...i am walking by..this time with a camera..over the past couple weeks i was so mad...mad that the county is allowing this to happen...i wanted to take pictures...


and there is a third cross????

http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182730324

and it is for the same person and THEY CUT A TREE DOWN SO YOU CAN SEE THE CROSS BETTER....WTF WTF WTF WTF

http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182838773

and LEFT it there...IT HIT AND MOVED OUR "BELAYSEAT"!!!!!!

http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182950926

they just left it there...in front of the wall...


again. i would like to say i am really really sorry for the two young deaths..but folks..there have been many non-climbing related deaths due to suicide and neglegence at chickie's rock

WE CAN NOT ALLOW IT TO TURN INTO A GRAVEYARD!!!!

this isn't really fair to the others who don't have their personal shrines...as far as i see it...it "glorifies" these deaths

DIDN'T YOU PEEPS GET A TOMBSTONE????

i think the locals NEED to get together and see how we can have these removed NOW!!!!

PS...dude soloed chickie's rock today...5.3-5.6..jesus...all i kept thinking was...well he's a friigin climber...he'll surely get a cross... :roll:


awsclimber


Apr 27, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Anne,
I agree completely. I was bothered by the first one, though it wasn't in the way too much. It truly is unfair for everyone visitng the park to be subject to those kind of memorials, and cutting down a tree just so that it can be seen better?! thats ridiculous. I am all for working to have the park service remove them, but it's going to be a very touchy issue and if approached too carelessly, even seemingly disrespectfully, the public could turn and there might even be an outcry for the closure of the cliff. As I said, i agree that they should be removed, but that should certainly be done only after discussing it with other people who use the park, not just climbers. by the way, if anyone sees this and wants to climb at chickies anytime in the next two weeks pm me. I live about 10 minutes way and am interested in checking out some new? trad routes.


climbinganne


Apr 27, 2003, 6:48 PM
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absolutely...i agree this HAS got to be handled VERY DELICATLY...so i shouldnt be the one doing it...

if i wasn't so friggin scared of worse karma..i would cut those suckers off in the middle of the night.

i look forward to hearing from the others who call chickies their home crag...


furryfrisbee


Apr 27, 2003, 6:59 PM
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Maybe if you just go to the rangers, discreetly, the crosses could be removed. Without raising a fuss that the press could get hold of. If it's a climbing area, there should be a ranger who is friendly to the climbing community. Anne, I hope you can find a ranger that can help with this. After all, in most parks down here, there is no bolting. When they won't allow bolting, I would hope that the rangers would be quick to correct such defacement as crosses bolted to the rock. Discreetly, of course. That is, of course, if they have a bolting ban, and a friendly ranger. Keep us up to date Anne, please.


farmerc


Apr 27, 2003, 7:15 PM
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh, thats funny... there is nothing climbing friendly in Lancaster. The rangers (while i respect them) are moreso neutral towards climbing and don't seem to give it much thought. I was quite pissed about the crosses too--those are some sweet problems/starts of routes they are on, grr, and the tree... Maybe it's just because i don't believe in anything, but I say let the living enjoy it, the dead don't need monuments.
~Chris


climbinganne


Apr 27, 2003, 7:35 PM
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In reply to:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh, thats funny... there is nothing climbing friendly in Lancaster. The rangers (while i respect them) are moreso neutral towards climbing and don't seem to give it much thought. I was quite pissed about the crosses too--those are some sweet problems/starts of routes they are on, grr, and the tree... Maybe it's just because i don't believe in anything, but I say let the living enjoy it, the dead don't need monuments.
~Chris

ok chris...so it is OBVIOUS that the two of us should not attend this face to face possible meeting, until we simmer down....we really need to put our heads together and find the BEST possible way to approach this

adam is right, we can't have this turn on us...


simzboardr


Apr 27, 2003, 7:42 PM
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WHo need a park ranger... someone get me an ice pick and a sledge hammer and withing a few minutes i'll have those crosses floating down the river.

I know im only sixteen and all but its REALLY HARD to tell your MOTHER how SAFE climbing is when there are THREE crosses at the base of the cliff. I mean seariously Anne is very correct WTF. THe next person to try to put a cross up is gonna have one of their own.

im sorry for the families but please keep our cliffs clean and our trees standing. We like it the way it was.


climbinganne


Apr 27, 2003, 7:49 PM
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WHo need a park ranger... someone get me an ice pick and a sledge hammer and withing a few minutes i'll have those crosses floating down the river.

I know im only sixteen and all but its REALLY HARD to tell your MOTHER how SAFE climbing is when there are THREE crosses at the base of the cliff. I mean seariously Anne is very correct WTF. THe next person to try to put a cross up is gonna have one of their own.

im sorry for the families but please keep our cliffs clean and our trees standing. We like it the way it was.

thanks pete ;)

ice pick and a sledge hammer??? **anne, doesn't like that combo**

bad karme pete...let's try to have the lancaster county parks commision help us before we resort to clipping the bolts on the crosses...heh...and age don't matter bro... 8)


redpiton


Apr 27, 2003, 8:41 PM
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I respect those soul's to the highest degree and I can see why they would want a corss etected. It makes perfect sense to me. Let's hold these people in our highest reguards. However, let us also have these people remain intact in out memories, not in two pieces of wood nailed to the rock where they perished. Chickies rock is a sacred place to Many...many being the keyword. These three croses symbolize the feelings of two people and their families...What about the hundreds of other people that grace this area with their presence?

I respect the people and their families, but why destroy the enjoyment of someone else who loved the place...That tree never saw it coming. I say we erect a cross for it. Im sure the dead wouldn't mind if we simply moved the corsses to the TOP of the cliff, where people would see them and it would even warn them about the dangers as well, and it would be out of our way.

When I started climbing there, there were no crosses and plenty of trees. Now the crosses almost out number the healthy trees.

Death is sad, but to stretch it out is even worse. My respects to the people and the tree.


flying_dutchman


Apr 27, 2003, 9:51 PM
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i often see crosses on the side of roads and highways after accidents but people still drive on the road... climb the fukin cliff; If the cross doesn't bother you that is. Sorry, but uh, just cause somebody dies somewhere doesn't mean that their relatives can lay claim to the ground there.


Partner sauron


Apr 27, 2003, 10:22 PM
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In reply to:
as many of you are aware...a couple, three years ago a young lady died celebrating her birthday on top of chickies rock...although not climbing related we were all saddened by the news of her passing. Soon after her friends and or family erected a cross..bolted it into a strictly TRAD/topropable crag...yes...on a route...

I wonder how many of you would think differently, if you were in their shoes...

- d.


psych


Apr 27, 2003, 11:12 PM
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You know, bad karma aside (as this would generate oodles of it), you could always use the cross as a sit down start and up the grades on the routes...I think that's what those people would have wanted. :roll:

That's pretty weak, I feel for the loss of your routes...
Mike...


katydid


Apr 28, 2003, 5:10 AM
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This is a delicate topic whenever it comes up, whether it's crosses on the side of a highway or bolted to the rock at a crag. My thoughts on the matter are as follows:

[opinion]

Some states have passed a law allowing a 30-day (or less) display of a roadside memorial where there has been a death. Some states have banned them altogether, citing distractions to motorists. Perhaps those sorts of laws should be extended to all public property, whether it's a school, a highway, or a climbing area.

Grieving does not put you above the law. Your personal experience does not trump everyone else's personal experience. You're not allowed to cut down trees on public property. Doesn't matter the reason. It's simply selfish and arrogant to assume that you have more right to a public area, no matter what your experience with that area is. That includes bolting crosses to rock faces.

If these people did not get permission from the county prior to defacing the rock (if "so-and-so RIP" was spraypainted on the rock, I'll bet people would be up in arms about the graffiti -- just because it's a cross doesn't make it less of a defacement), the crosses should be removed. If they did get permission from the county, perhaps someone could approach the people responsible for county parks about moving the crosses, so they're a) not bolted to the rock and b) in a place where people can see them but it's not interfering with other people's access to the area. Either way, the tree-cutters should be cited. (How would they like it if I found it personally significant to bolt a religious symbol -- pick one -- to their house and cut down a tree in their yard so people could see it better? Even if, for whatever reason, I found it personally important to do this, it doesn't make my actions right ... and I bet they'd be right pissed off.)

Public property is no place for a display of religion -- any religion. Crosses are a display of religion. Leave your religious symbols in church and at your house.

[/opinion]

There are a couple of rc.commers that volunteer with the Access Fund and the ACCess Committee (Canadian version). Perhaps one of these folks could offer a suggestion or two on how to deal with this delicately, in order to see everyone to some sort of compromise.

k.


mike


Apr 28, 2003, 5:14 AM
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Annie I may have told you what I came across when backpacking through RRG. I was taking a winding trail up toward an arch and came across this small wreath of native materials with a note stuck in it. The note explained that the little memorial was for a loved one who fell off the arch when trying to stop a burning log from rolling off the top, this was back in the days when you could build a fire on top. His family does this every year. Reading the note gave genuine pause for reflection, and there was no permanant disfigurement. Maybe if somebody contacted the familys. Probably tell you to go to hell, might be worth a shot though.


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 5:24 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
as many of you are aware...a couple, three years ago a young lady died celebrating her birthday on top of chickies rock...although not climbing related we were all saddened by the news of her passing. Soon after her friends and or family erected a cross..bolted it into a strictly TRAD/topropable crag...yes...on a route...

I wonder how many of you would think differently, if you were in their shoes...

- d.

as USUAL dom you act like an asshole...if i were in their shoes, i would be dead...now..if you were meaning the shoes of the friends and or family...dom i have been there 3 times this past year...did i erect crosses for my loved ones...NO...so don't assume it


the crap is GAWDY!!!!!

i would be ashamed if my friends/family did that for me...i would EXPECT my climbing partners here to FIX it!!!

yes..it is unfortunate about the deaths...BOTH of THESE deaths COULD have been PREVENTED..they sure as hell shouldn't be glorified!!!!


tragic as they re/were...it still doesnt give anyone the right to deface property and cut down trees...


crimpmaster


Apr 28, 2003, 5:36 AM
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i call chickes my home crag....and i went by there a couple weeks ago when i was home from school to do a couple boulder problems that my friend and i worked out last summer......and that cross is dead center in the middle of the problem.

with all due respect to those lost........there are cemeteries.

i regard this as a form of graffiti.

it should be removed.


pusherem


Apr 28, 2003, 5:39 AM
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i agree


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 5:47 AM
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In reply to:
i agree

thought i'd run into you yesterday...was a bit disappointed...NEXT TIME!!!!


socalclimber


Apr 28, 2003, 5:57 AM
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I agree as well. We had a young man die in Palm Springs in a motorcycle accident. He happened to be a climber. So his friends decided that they should bolt a plaque in his honor somewhere in Joshua Tree National Park. After numerous emails, etc., we finaly convinced them this was a BAD THING TO DO!


ezjay40


Apr 28, 2003, 8:59 AM
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"Someone said to put the cross up top"
That would be a great idea!
What a deter ant !
I'm shore even the families would go for that... It could stop someone else from the same fate...

But I see this alot! never Bolted tho
There is a nice one on the trail up to Pole Steeple. just a little memorial in a grove trees. lying on the ground.
there's another one out Rock State Park. Now that one effect me the same way as Chickies. With a cross at the Base of the rock, It just gives me hebbyGebbies... It's Freaky...

But I no the Parks Don't like u cutting the trees down and Defacing Park property. thats a no no... So it should be a ez one to win


crimpmaster


Apr 28, 2003, 9:24 AM
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i guess we all agree that the cross(es) should be removed:

any thoughts on how to do it?........contact authorities?.......remove it ourselves?....or talk to the relatives of those lost.

i think that getting in touch with those who installed the cross would be the most respectful.

:?


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 9:26 AM
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i dont want to see them when i top out either...

maybe if they were put in the lookout area...you know near the sign that says don't throw objects...climbers below...yet the beer bottles and rocks continue to fly...


hugepedro


Apr 28, 2003, 9:38 AM
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I'd recommend you contact your Access Fund regional rep. They know how to handle delicate issues like this, and can give you guidance.

http://www.accessfund.org/


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 9:40 AM
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In reply to:
i guess we all agree that the cross(es) should be removed:

any thoughts on how to do it?........contact authorities?.......remove it ourselves?....or talk to the relatives of those lost.

i think that getting in touch with those who installed the cross would be the most respectful.

:?

yes...it would be respectful to contact the families...

but, if they were involved in the crosses...they were also involved in the tree cutting...

i think we should go to the county first...see what they say..if they take them down, i am most comfortable with that...i dont want to involve the friends/families in this matter...i dont want an issue OTHER than..it is not a shrine...peeps cannot cut trees down...and if they ALLOW this...it will continue...more than likely GET WORSE...

it needs to be handled in the MOST NON EMOTIONAL way...these families can not do that...their actions have proved this thus far...


but hey...this is good...we need to discuss every avenue..i could and am wrong (heh, often!)...lemme know if my thinking is off...

damn...we ignored the first cross...i knew this was gonna happen...what about the girl they found in january...is her shrine next??


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 9:45 AM
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In reply to:
I'd recommend you contact your Access Fund regional rep. They know how to handle delicate issues like this, and can give you guidance.

http://www.accessfund.org/

actually the access fund has already contacted me...after seeing this thread last night...as of now i declined their help


this is county property...i don't wanna knock the access fund here


i dont think we want/need all the hoopla that goes along with involving them...

anyone else's thoughts on this matter???? - i think many of the locals know what i am saying....


furryfrisbee


Apr 28, 2003, 9:46 AM
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In reply to:
i dont want to see them when i top out either...

maybe if they were put in the lookout area...you know near the sign that says don't throw objects...climbers below...yet the beer bottles and rocks continue to fly...

Good idea Anne. This might make a good fall-back position if they can't be removed completely.


hugepedro


Apr 28, 2003, 9:54 AM
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Even if you don't involve the Access Fund in an "official" capacity, I'm sure they can still help you with things like drafting letters, and listening to your situation and giving advice on how to deal with the local land managers. I'm sure if you impressed upon them the need to keep this quiet and a local issue they would understand that.

I'm just saying don't write them off too quickly. I think a lot of what they do does not involve a publicized circus. They have experience with touchy stuff like this, as well as the more publicized situations.


Partner sauron


Apr 28, 2003, 10:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
as many of you are aware...a couple, three years ago a young lady died celebrating her birthday on top of chickies rock...although not climbing related we were all saddened by the news of her passing. Soon after her friends and or family erected a cross..bolted it into a strictly TRAD/topropable crag...yes...on a route...

I wonder how many of you would think differently, if you were in their shoes...

- d.

as USUAL dom you act like an asshole...if i were in their shoes, i would be dead...now..if you were meaning the shoes of the friends and or family...dom i have been there 3 times this past year...did i erect crosses for my loved ones...NO...so don't assume it

My dear Anne,

Contrary to what you'd like to think, I am not trying to be an asshole about this issue - but rather, trying to get people to see this from the point of view of the family...

How many times have you seen the small crosses along the sides of the road, when some kid is killed by a drunk driver, or similar situation..

Yes, the family's use of a bolted-in cross may be a bit oveboard, the family might not have known better, and merely need a bit of re-education.

Often, us climbers think/act like we own the rock - this is generally not the case - we're given the rock to climb on, but we are there, because someone lets us, not because it's our God-given right, and definitely not because we "own" it.

Even in State/national parks, which are state/federally funded, should the park service decide that it'd be bad (safety/other reasons), they can go in and declare the climbing as an illegal activity. (Yes, this is extremist - it's likely they'd have a hard time passing it, etc.. But the point still remains.)

Talk with the park service, or the land owners of chickies (I don't know where chickies is, other than close enough for Anne - which only gives me a rough approximation) nor who owns it - you locals find that out.

Any knee-jerk reactions from a bunch of rogue climbers, will very likely cause nothing but tension, and make the situation worse.

In reply to:
i would be ashamed if my friends/family did that for me...i would EXPECT my climbing partners here to FIX it!!!

That's because your climbing partners, and presumably your family - know enough about climbing to tell - to the rest of the non-climbing world, the rock is just that.. "Just a rock" - see my above statement about re-education.

You state that 2 (all three?) of the deaths, were not climbing related - so it's safe to assume that the friends/family of the deceased aren't up to snuff on the climbing scene at Chickies...

- d.


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 10:31 AM
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dom...i do understand the sadness these families are dealing with...

i understand their want/need for a cross...i was willing/trying to live with that


but when they cut a living tree down..to shove the crosses in our faces...when FINALLY..i could walk by and not notice it...I KNOW OTHERS FEEL AS I DO

i want to figure out WHY the county left the first cross up...

i personally do not know how many people have died from drunken parties up there...or suicide... i know it is over a dozen...and it will continue to happen...

thank you for your response dominic, are you saying the families should be contacted???

hmmm...i dont think that is a wise first move

i am still looking at the chess board here


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 10:35 AM
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In reply to:
Even if you don't involve the Access Fund in an "official" capacity, I'm sure they can still help you with things like drafting letters, and listening to your situation and giving advice on how to deal with the local land managers. I'm sure if you impressed upon them the need to keep this quiet and a local issue they would understand that.

I'm just saying don't write them off too quickly. I think a lot of what they do does not involve a publicized circus. They have experience with touchy stuff like this, as well as the more publicized situations.

thank you!!!

i have not ruled out their help...at this very moment i am actually discussing my options with them..at this time they are NOT officially involved...more like a friend helping me think this through ;)


roclimb


Apr 28, 2003, 11:06 AM
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I respect Ann's decision. She is a local climber there and she would represent the community as good as any org. would. Thats what the AF really is anyway. Local climbers doing good turns to support a sport they love. If she was some crazy person who might approach the park yelling and screaming with a colt-45 and a copy of "Helter Skelter" in her hand, it may be a different story. But Ann seems to have a darn good head on her shoulders and seems to be thinking things through. If the community wants the AF help I am willing and im sure Lonnie who deals with Central PA would help as it is his region.
But its all about local climbers on a local level so I respect Ann's decission and encourage it.

Rob H
NEPA Access Fund Coordinator


Partner polarwid


Apr 28, 2003, 11:18 AM
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OK, up here in ALASKA, a "famous" climber by the name of STEVE GARVEY (not the baseball player) died while climbing down near PORTAGE. On a cliff in HATCHER'S PASS (over 100 miles away) is a memorial plaque for him (HATCHER'S was his favorite climbing area). It is right at the base of a route, but discreet enough that you have to be right next to it to see it. I have never seen anyone, nor do I have a problem with it.

I did not quite gather whether the COUNTY was aware of the "vandalism" on their land, as permanent fixtures would probably need a permit of some kind. The cutting of a tree was definately a heinous act, as a memorial area should be quiet and peaceful for reflection, not a gaudy display for all to see.

Climbing on or around these "markers" should not be a problem, it is not like there is a body there or something. They chose to place them in a known climbing area, so what happens to them happens. If some thought would be given to the families of those lost, my recommendation would be to look into finding a smaller out of the way rock or boulder in the area that a plaque could be affixed to with room to place the names and a religious symbol (cross, Star of David, crescent, whatever...) to memorialize all of the current and former people who met their unfortunate end at this place. I don't know who would fund this, maybe the families, maybe the county, but to avoid "desecration" of their markers, it seems that the families should agree with some sort of plan like this. You could even tell them that their markers are in a "high traffic" area and that placing them there is the same as putting them in the middle of a sidewalk or in the middle of the highway. They may not have realized the other users of the rock (for whatever purpose) would be hindered or impeded by the placement of the markers.

I know this was rambling, but just my thoughts on the issue. THey have as much right to the area as climbers do, though the permanent fixture of items without permission on county property should be looked into. Just remember though, that this could also affect YOUR placement of any bolts in the area, as they would be covered by the same laws.


gblauer
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Apr 28, 2003, 11:57 AM
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Here is an idea:

Remove the crosses, plant a tree, add a bronze plaque to create a memorial to those who lost their lives at Chickies. I, for one, would be happy to contribute $ or labor to the effort. Everyone wins: the families get the memorial, we get our routes back.


Partner polarwid


Apr 28, 2003, 12:10 PM
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AMAZING how someone can take that 50 line paragraph I wrote and trim it down to 5 lines...THANKS GBLAUER!


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 12:21 PM
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first of all..thanks to adam..who helped calm my blood pressure down...special thanks to rob, for his help and support...and to all of you for your ideas..

In reply to:
Here is an idea:

Remove the crosses, plant a tree, add a bronze plaque to create a memorial to those who lost their lives at Chickies. I, for one, would be happy to contribute $ or labor to the effort. Everyone wins: the families get the memorial, we get our routes back.

thank you gail...another good compromise...

i will call the Lancaster County Parks and Recreation Dept...find out who we need to address this issue to...


ckershner0


Apr 28, 2003, 12:49 PM
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I am very sorry for these families losses, and not to bring bad karma onto myself, but..

YES anne THANK YOU!!

Can you just imagine what yosemite would look like if there were crosses at the base of every climb that someone died on?

And as far as the tree cutting goes... Isn't it against the law to cut down trees in a state park?


vertical_reality


Apr 28, 2003, 12:53 PM
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What if you found some of the friends of the deceased (climbing friends) and have them explain to the family the ethics involed with their actions. If a family friend explained to them how their lost one loved climbing and everything it meant to them and told them how they'd probably want other climbers to be able to enjoy the routes they would be more understanding then if a random group of people questioned what they did. Just have a familiar face tell them that they do not want to remove the memorial, but that it should be changed to suit everyone.

By the sounds of the thread so far it seems that everyone assumes that the family will kick up a stink about it, try to make it so that you want them to be remembered in a better way, who knows, they might think its a good idea... but if you start saying stuff about the tree they cut down, tensions will become worse.


braaaaaaaadley


Apr 28, 2003, 12:53 PM
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With respect to the families who errected the "memorials"... why did they have to be bolted to the rock??? That was a pretty dumb idea, but since they are now there they have two functions: 1) they remind us not to do stupid things, and 2) they aid you in the climb with your first foot hold being provided for you 8)


climbsomething


Apr 28, 2003, 1:07 PM
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Kate makes a lot of great points. No one person's grief should be above the law, or other peoples' rights to an area. Bolting crosses into a rock face and cutting down trees is presumptuous more than selfish, but still assumes that a permanent personal memorial would not be a problem with anybody else.

On the other hand, Dom is right too. There's probably a lot of simple ignornance on the part of the friends and family of the deceased. They probably really didn't know any better (though if they did, and said "eff it, I'll do whatever I want" well, that's not so nice) Just because we climb the rock doesn't mean it's ours anymore than the regular citizens who know their loved ones enjoyed the crags for non-climbing purposes.

The people who erected these memorials should be contacted at some point early on, but it's probably wise to go to the authorities first.

Good food for thought. Keep us updated.


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 1:49 PM
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i had a great conversation with the head of the Lancaster County Parks and Recreatiion Dept.

i just finished sending him an email with the pictures...

he said to me on the phone that they were unaware of the crosses being bolted to the base of the wall (he said they were unaware of the cross that has been there for the past couple years too...)..and they definatly didn't know about the tree being cut down two weeks ago.

He is at this time checking the rules and regulations of this specific Lancaster County Park...if it is written in BLACK and WHITE that there is to be no bolting...or disfigurement to the rock..the park service will immediatly remove the crosses...if there is no clear cut rule...it will have to go in front of the county commisioners monthly meeting at the end of May. I hope we can avoid the red tape here.

We really did not discuss what will happen to the crosses...we focused on the negitive impact on the park..and the fact that it is not a memorial/cemetary and that unfortunatly in the past 4 months there has been three deaths there...

Let's all hope this is all written in BLACK and WHITE...


my e-mail to the head of the parks in Lancaster County...

Dear Mr. Weiss,

Thank you for your time this afternoon. I was under the impression that the LCPRD knew about the original cross...located in picture #1 on the left side. As you can see in that picture another cross on the right side as well as a third below that cross has now been erected.

In picture #2 and #3 you will see the downed tree...as of yesterday April 28th, 2003, the tree is still located at the base of the wall, I have been told by fellow climbers it has been laying there for at least two weeks. I was at the wall 3 weeks ago that is when i noticed the 2nd affixed cross.

We, as a community of concerned climbers and friends of chickies rock, are more than willing to remove and dispose of that tree properly without involving the family...or embarrass those responsible...we know they are in mourning...also we would like to remove the stump...possibly replant a tree near where the other was destroyed.

As per our conversation on the phone, where the crosses end up off the rock is at the county parks discretion, of course.

Thank you again for your compassion for both sides of this issue.

Here is my info, i look forward to hearing from you in the next week...hopefully this can all be resolved peacefully and discretely for all those involved.


Anne Shaw ***-***-****
climbinganne@yahoo.com


Sincerely yours,

Anne Shaw

#1 - http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182625347

#2 - http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182838773

#3 - http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182950926


***you know...we are in need of a NEW picnic table...maybe..we could honor those lost that way...just an idea!!! - i will mention it to Paul Weiss when i speak with him next week...


madriver


Apr 28, 2003, 2:40 PM
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Unless your last name was ......

Washington
Lincoln
Rosevelt
Jefferson

...permant memorial should remain in a graveyard.

A temporary memorial would have been appropriate, and a yearly commenrative if so desired. Chopping down trees and erecting permant markers are not.

My thoughts

MR


elvislegs


Apr 28, 2003, 3:10 PM
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Ungh! that's idiotic!

...when I go, someone put up a really sick new ice route and call it something special like "Sean was a Jackass" that should do for my monument.


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 3:31 PM
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Ungh! that's idiotic!

...when I go, someone put up a really sick new ice route and call it something special like "Sean was a Jackass" that should do for my monument.

yeah...a jackass that gives up his belay device to a friend...yeah sean...jackass...that is THE FIRST WORD that comes to my mind when i think of you....pfffft... :roll:


pullonthis


Apr 28, 2003, 4:53 PM
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I too was at Chickies on Sunday, where I met Anne. I saw the crosses and found them to be not only inappropriate and a bit gory, but also a deliberate destruction of nature! Not only were holes drilled into the rock, but a tree was cut down and left laying there. To me, a memorial is put up as a reminder of that person's life, and IMO defacing the rock and killing another living creature is not the besst way to remember someone.

Being that Sunday was my first time at Chickies, I wasn't sure what to make of the situation, but I would like to help however possible. Chickies is a great place to climb and meet new friends, so if any help is needed, you know how to find me!

I think the new picnic table is a good idea. We could even put a small plaque on the table in remembrance of lost loved ones. In this way, the deceased's memory can live on in a useful manner that everyone there can appreciate and enjoy. I also think that something could be done with the fallen tree so that it doesn't just get hauled away and used to make toothpicks, maybe a new belay bench?


ezjay40


Apr 28, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Way to go Girl...
Ur the chit the real deal
I thought Ranger Rick would like that... 20 some yrs ago it was like a 500.00 fine for one tree.
Climb on!
These www is something


orangekyak


Apr 28, 2003, 5:58 PM
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In reply to:
Anne Shaw ***-***-****
climbinganne@yahoo.com

should be accessanne@yahoo.com hahaha nice going dude


gyngve


Apr 28, 2003, 6:03 PM
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In reply to:
OK, up here in ALASKA, a "famous" climber by the name of STEVE GARVEY (not the baseball player) died while climbing down near PORTAGE. On a cliff in HATCHER'S PASS (over 100 miles away) is a memorial plaque for him (HATCHER'S was his favorite climbing area). It is right at the base of a route, but discreet enough that you have to be right next to it to see it. I have never seen anyone, nor do I have a problem with it.

On top of Lundin Peak here, there are memorials/anchor bolts for climbers
who have died on route, usually from falling on the "3rd class" descent.


climbinganne


Apr 28, 2003, 11:45 PM
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In reply to:
Chickies is a great place to climb and meet new friends, so if any help is needed, you know how to find me!

I think the new picnic table is a good idea. We could even put a small plaque on the table in remembrance of lost loved ones. In this way, the deceased's memory can live on in a useful manner that everyone there can appreciate and enjoy. I also think that something could be done with the fallen tree so that it doesn't just get hauled away and used to make toothpicks, maybe a new belay bench?

thats the spirit...welcome to the family ;)

i think the belay bench is an awesome idea!!

we could use a new one over by sunday morning and hollywood...


climbinganne


Apr 29, 2003, 5:54 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Anne Shaw ***-***-****
climbinganne@yahoo.com

should be accessanne@yahoo.com hahaha nice going dude



that would be dud-ESS wouldn't it jeremy???


and to think all that time we spent together


...and you didnt notice... :roll: :wink:


Partner missedyno


Apr 29, 2003, 6:53 AM
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poor tree.... they should plant a tree in the memory of the loved one...

anne, kudos to you for your action on this....

and dom, i agree with you, this seems like an act of un-climbing-educated people. let's hope they have noooo idea that they're interfering with the climbing in the area....


again... poor tree.


Partner cliffhanger9
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Apr 29, 2003, 7:05 AM
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i have been to chickies a couple times when there was only the one cross and thought that was kinda wierd...i agree...those belongs somewhere else...not bolted to the rock

the new ones and the tree are disturbing also.

so...yeah Anne! rock on! 8)

i know u ll continue to post the progress of this issue and i would love to come out and help (and meet you all) with whatever decision is made. lemme know if i can help!

keep up the good work!!

ROCK ON!! http://216.40.249.192/...n/tongue/tongue3.gif


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 6:40 AM
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i am sitting here at this keyboard not quite knowing what to type...i feel humbled by this whole experience...truly saddened and although we will eventually get our routes back...i don't feel like a winner

i received word today from Mr. Weiss...

Anne,

I just wanted to get back to you regarding your email about Chickies Rock.
First, I was unable to open your pictures. Is it possible for you to download
them and send them to me as jpeg attachments? I have a meeting with the County
Administrator on May 16 and I would like to show the pictures to her. It will
be at this meeting that we will request her guidance on the best way to remove
the memorials.

Second, I wanted to let you know that the tree that was cut down was done so by
our maintenance staff. Apparently the tree was quite heavily damaged by one of
the victims during their fall and our park arborist concluded that it needed to
be taken down. Our staff will be returning to the site within the next couple
of days to chip the tree.

I hope this answers some of your concerns for now. I will be back in touch once
a decision regarding the memorials has been made. Please send those pictures if
possible and feel free to contact me with any further questions.

Sincerely,

Paul D. Weiss, Assistant Director
Lancaster County Dept. of Parks and Rec.



after i read Mr. Weiss's e-mail, my heart sank...i called him to ask him if we could possibly still turn that tree into a belay bench, that we would be there tomorrow, he said they plan on doing the chipping today :cry:


and he informed me that it is in fact written in "black and white" - "no alterations of any kind to the rock"

so...the county is handling this as delicate as they possibly can...for a number of reasons...

respect for the families that lost their loved ones recently

and obvious political reasons

after paul's meeting on May sixteenth there will more than likely be a letter sent to the families of the victims explaining park policy and the families have an allotted time to come and gather their memorials .

i did not mention the picnic table, i felt at this point it was inappropriate to do so

paul explained to me today that he just got this position with the county...

gosh, what a way to have to settle into his new job...


thank you all for your help...


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 7:31 AM
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wow! u are wonder women and quick too ,my busy little beaver.
AA put the sweet smell of that two stoke motor oil permeating the air, the roar of that engine, the smell of the wood being nulled away at. Really gets my motor running! :cry: G I guess will just to climb! :roll:


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 7:41 AM
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i am going to bring it anyway...maybe the county maintanence had something else to do today, i really feel like crap dennis...


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 9:07 AM
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In reply to:
i am going to bring it anyway...maybe the county maintanence had something else to do today, i really feel like crap dennis...

Crap my ass > u did good, I mean great" Wonder Women"
You got read of the crosses...Thats a biggy! they really did give me the hebe gibes

So thank u very much!
always...right or wrong Dennis

O I'm talking to Dave about Great Fall 9th or 10th u up for it...
Shit thats wkend we where going to? Crap I fuck up...


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 9:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
i am going to bring it anyway...maybe the county maintanence had something else to do today, i really feel like crap dennis...

Crap my ass > u did good, I mean great" Wonder Women"
You got read of the crosses...Thats a biggy! they really did give me the hebe gibes

So thank u very much!
always...right or wrong Dennis

O I'm talking to Dave about Great Fall 9th or 10th u up for it...
s___ thats wkend we where going to? Crap I f___ up...

great falls huh..not kid friendly enough...especially this time of year

abi and i are hanging in pa that weekend..it is the next weekend dennis...sssssshhhhhhh...

looks like phillycheese is joining us at NRP too...


Partner sauron


Apr 30, 2003, 9:19 AM
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In reply to:
Second, I wanted to let you know that the tree that was cut down was done so by
our maintenance staff. Apparently the tree was quite heavily damaged by one of
the victims during their fall and our park arborist concluded that it needed to
be taken down. Our staff will be returning to the site within the next couple
of days to chip the tree.

This was interesting, as I was just about to point out that it's bad to assume that it was the family of the deceased who cut down the tree..

And no, Anne, I was not trying to be an ass.

- d.


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Second, I wanted to let you know that the tree that was cut down was done so by
our maintenance staff. Apparently the tree was quite heavily damaged by one of
the victims during their fall and our park arborist concluded that it needed to
be taken down. Our staff will be returning to the site within the next couple
of days to chip the tree.

This was interesting, as I was just about to point out that it's bad to assume that it was the family of the deceased who cut down the tree..

And no, Anne, I was not trying to be an ass.

- d.

yes dom...i feel very very bad about this...


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 9:48 AM
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In reply to:
we need to discuss every avenue..i could and am wrong (heh, often!)...

i am not trying to defend myself, my assumptions were wrong...and disrespected those families, to which, i am so sorry about...

i guess finding out that mr. weiss is new in his position expains why he told me he had no idea a tree was taken down...

to me that meant the county didnt do it...


leaverbiner


Apr 30, 2003, 9:55 AM
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I read through this long thread with mixed emotions, going from content calm observer to desiring to be engaged. Repeatedly I convinced myself to restrain from responding to what I saw as elitist and hypocritical arguments . . . but, statements such as "get our routes back" just rang in my ears, and I had to finally allow the dam to be opened . . .

I read through so much crap about "how could these families disrespect the rock and nature" and in many cases referring to the rock as "ours" etc . . . it's pathetic. Then, as it turns out, a huge portion of the actions attributed to these families, and certainly the linchpin of the cause to have their actions condemned and their memorials wiped away, weren't even committed by the families, i.e. the cutting down of a tree.

It never ceases to amaze me how selfish people can be. Often those being selfish not realizing it, or doing so under the guise of "good for the community".

Don't forget one important thing, these families lost loved ones.

The thread is replete with condolences and so forth, but how backhanded do those look when followed up by, "your grieving shouldn't be allowed where I chose to spend my free time" or "your memorial is something I don't want to have to see when I am climbing." No these aren't exact quotes, but they certainly express the underlying intent of many of the posts.

I am not saying that we should encourage these types of memorials. What I am saying is that some sort of dialogue should have been opened with the families or some investigation into FACTS should have been done before spewing blame and condemnation.

The energy exhibited by Anne and others is certainly admirable, but I think there was a lack of direction. People jumped to conclusions, and from my vantage point ,it appeared to be both for selfish reasons and/or to make some sort of "look at me i'm saving our climbing area" kind of statement.

those are my impressions from this thread . . . they may very well be influenced or skewed by numerous recent developments in other areas of PA where I've been witness to people being a bit cavalier, or naive about situations. People without the necessary experience (climbing, access, politics) trying to run off and do what they think will "make a difference" or earn them some props from others in the community, or somehow legitimize their standing in the community "see what I have done . . . now I belong to this elitist club called CLIMBER" . . . I know this is a bit rambling and maybe I will try to put it in a clearer form shortly, but I had to at least let some ideas flow . . .


rwaltermyer


Apr 30, 2003, 10:07 AM
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uh.oh.
i can sense that now the sh!t is gonna hit the fan.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Other than that I'll keep my 2 cents to myself.


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 10:36 AM
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In reply to:
Then, as it turns out, a huge portion of the actions attributed to these families, and certainly the linchpin of the cause to have their actions condemned and their memorials wiped away, weren't even committed by the families, i.e. the cutting down of a tree.

i am not going to comment on everything you said..you don't know me..you can judge me anyway you see fit...

but i was armed with my camera that day BEFORE i knew about the 3rd cross and BEFORE i saw the tree...

no it was always about the crosses bolted to the wall, the others just added to the intensity of the moment...my bad...again, i called the county they said they weren't aware of a downed tree by their hands...

continue to flame away with your elitist and hypocritical arguments


leaverbiner


Apr 30, 2003, 10:59 AM
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Funny - I didn't see my post as being a flame - nevermind the fact that my comments weren't addressed solely or specifically at you. I even went so far as to compliment you on your ambitiousness. Yes, I questioned the motivation, but I expressed it as a doubt about what the motivation truly was, that's not JUDGING.


furryfrisbee


Apr 30, 2003, 11:17 AM
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In reply to:
It never ceases to amaze me how selfish people can be. Often those being selfish not realizing it, or doing so under the guise of "good for the community".

And then:

The energy exhibited by Anne and others is certainly admirable, but I think there was a lack of direction. People jumped to conclusions, and from my vantage point ,it appeared to be both for selfish reasons and/or to make some sort of "look at me i'm saving our climbing area" kind of statement.

But he's not being judgemental. Anne, I commend you on what you've done. You brought it to the attention of the proper authorities, and now they can deal with it in the fashion they feel best. The people that put up the crosses did so without the authorization needed for such a display. As with ANY defacement, it should be removed, be it bolts, anchors, rap stations, spray painting, or even crosses. I will always be one of your fans Anne.


orangekyak


Apr 30, 2003, 11:25 AM
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If nobody assumes possession of a resource, nobody protects it. The county's rock is everyone's rock. I live three states away and feel strongly about it. Why? Because we are the people who care about the rock, so we are the ones who look after it.

So many times the rules and laws go against the climbers. this is an example of the rules and laws going for the climbers' cause.

you will not see a "I'm sorry about your loved one" in my post. the loved one didn't put the cross up on OUR rock.

we should take responsibility for the rock and feel ownership for it. nobody else will.


coach


Apr 30, 2003, 1:00 PM
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Jeremy,
You are right on the money on this one. Too many areas (not just climbing!) have been lost to the public because people refused to take responsibility for it and expected everything to be handled by the state, county, etc. Defacement, litter, vandalism, it all is done daily and far too many people simply look the other way. If it is public land, it is our land! When we all begin to take responsibility and not accept inappropriate actions by others then the lands will again be ours. We all have to get involved! Keep it up Anne!

Climb On


bobd1953


Apr 30, 2003, 1:02 PM
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I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber. It belongs to the peolpe of Lancaster County! Don't be so self-center and try to understand the emotions and reasons on the part of the family who lost a love one. I wouldn't do what they did, but I can also understand why they did it.


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 1:10 PM
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Not being judgemental my ass! Two Faced maybe.
So you what to kick someone in the ass and shake there hand at the same time... You what to be the Big Guy. Then listen don't read between the lines don't stand on a podium and preach reverend Rob.
90 percent of these people in these forms are adolescent or just people looking for help in one way or another. This is there sounding board there throwing there ideas out looking for the right answers.
If those jumpers had a place like this then maybe there out come would be different. But you get more bees with honey then you do with a bunch of Shit.
So you can be a part of the solution or the problem. you pick!
There hearts where in the right spot . The solution was come to and executed. the right decision was made. don't come in here throw your 2 bits around like your shit don't stink. The easiest thing to do is stand back and criticize! Be a part of the solution!
Thank you very much


Partner drector


Apr 30, 2003, 1:27 PM
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In reply to:
I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber. It belongs to the peolpe of Lancaster County!

If he is one of the people of that county then he can say that it is partially his.

Also, just because you don't have legal possession of soemthing doesn't mean you can't claim it as being important to you enough to treat it like a possession to be safeguraded from evil. I consider the earth to be something of a possession... not that I own it and can do as I please but that I am responsible for it's well being. All climbers should be responsible for the well-being of all climbing areas and treat them like they own them. We don't own them but we are still responsible for them.

As for the crosses, I find them in poor taste. They usually reflect someone elses failure to move on with their life. Mourning for too long could be considered an emotional problem and I don't want to see relics of other peoples emotional problems littering the highways and crags. It is just more visual polution to litter a landscape already polluted with advertising signs, fences, and automobiles. Let the crosses stay for a while then remove them or ask an official who oversees the area to do it. At some point, it is just litter bolted to a rock.


Partner wideguy


Apr 30, 2003, 1:29 PM
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In reply to:
I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber...

Nor does it "belong" to the grieving families or friends or whoever it turns out put up the memorials, by that logic. So Anne's efforts to return it to it's natural and unblemished state is even more appropriate, especially in light of the revelation that such actions ARE prohibited by the county. I agree with Orangekyak, if we don't assume some stewardship, not ownership, of public lands, noone will.

And I still fail to see how it's hypocritical to feel sympathy for the families of the deceased but disagree with their choice of memorial.

I'm with Anne. I think she handled it respectfully and appropriately and should feel no shame for anything she did.


lemon_boy


Apr 30, 2003, 1:55 PM
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i am pretty surprised at the fact that in 5 pages of discussion nobody really mentions the irony (or possibly hypocricy) of this whole thread, and pretty much the rock climbing attitutde in general. all over the country and all over the world climbers leave bolts, pins, webbing, etcetera merely for enjoyment, bragging rites, (insert your favorite reason for climbing). somebody puts a few bolts in to leave a memorial and they get crucified for it. sure, the crosses may be unsightly, but aren't our bolts, project tags, chalk marks, powerbar wrappers, tape, and access-fund-wheelchair-friendly-trails unsightly as well? we complain about a tree being cut down, yet have no problems with trundling tons of rock from cliff faces, gardening out cracks, etc. anybody been to the base of a lot of routes at potrero? how many trees and plants bit the bullet there? look at the routes there, all blistered by patches of brown where the crowbar "cleaned" the route up a bit. shelf road in colorado - the access fund might as well pave the trails along the base of the cliffs 'just to keep erosion under control'. god knows the hundreds of examples that could be pointed out here.

as polarwid noted, there are quite a few places where there are plaques of one sort or another (turkey perch in colorado, as polarwid would probably remember). just climb around it and get over it. do you honestly think that taking it to the county authorities and protesting this 'absolutely holocaustic act' is going to do the climbing community any good? if this shit hit the papers it would be the climbers that would end up getting crucified. we would look like a bunch of petty, hypocritical, arrogant assholes who don't have respect for anybody but ourselves.

we expect the community to look the other way when it comes to our selfish little hobby. i think the little memorials are a small price to pay to keep relations between climbers and the community in good terms.


leaverbiner


Apr 30, 2003, 2:21 PM
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Unbelievable.

"ezjay40" your personal attacks are completely unnecessary and totally miss the point (not to mention being a perfect example of the rampant hypocracy in this thread!).

I did not single anyone out in my first response, I only singled-out Anne to commend her for her desire and initiative. There is nothing wrong with praising and giving advice at the same time, it does not amount to being two faced. Yes, I have criticisms of the viewpoints espoused by those in this thread. But, at the same time, I am in agreement with many of these same people on other issues. My initial post was a free flow of ideas, thoughts, concerns, and impressions. There was no preaching. It astounds me that you and others come here just to pick a fight.

Absolutely unbelievable!

I took some time to look back over the thread, and note some of the comments that bothered me. I was going to DISCUSS them here, but it appears any time someone expresses an opinion or concern that doesn't happen to comport with the loudest mouth in the thread they just get slammed. Ignorance is bliss.


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 2:36 PM
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Yah lemon
I don't like all the bolting that's going on today put I'm not going to smash you for it... I just will not climb there. And my State does not allow it. But I do try to understand it as being a safe way to get into climbing. Bring the numbers up. so on and so forth... I'm just going to try and win one person over at a time. But I will leave a sling or a piece of pro in a heart beat to get off a climb safely. Hope one day someone like anne will come back and clean my mess up... Thats my best shoping day climbing on mondays.
So what can I say, right or wrong


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 2:39 PM
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quart short dollar late Rob


orangekyak


Apr 30, 2003, 4:30 PM
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In reply to:
I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber. It belongs to the peolpe of Lancaster County!
Right on. I don't live in Lancaster County, I made that clear. I have lived in PA and take pride in the state. My comment was suggesting that in our society, only those who take ownership (as Chad said, "stewardship") of things actually act to take care of it.

So since I'm not from Lancaster County, should I not show up for a trail day at Chickie's? I am on rc.com, so I think I have a right to comment on anything in a public forum.

In reply to:
Don't be so self-center and try to understand the emotions and reasons on the part of the family who lost a love one. I wouldn't do what they did, but I can also understand why they did it.
You reminded us yourself that it's county property. There's nothing legal or moral about permanently defacing public property. They certainly could have made a donation to the park to be used for warning signs or improvements that can be enjoyed by all (such as picnic table). It's not a matter of understanding someone's loss. You don't know who I've lost (mostly because I'm not going to force it upon you). But if you can understand an immoral, illegal, and arguably gruesome act of vandalism, I hardly expect you to understand me.


bobd1953


Apr 30, 2003, 5:06 PM
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Here we go! Orangekyak, some people think the act of climbing defaced the rock and surrounding areas (parking lot, trails to the rocks, picnic tables, camping spots, belay benches, chalk, slings on trees, slings hanging on the rock, pitons in the rock, bolts in the rock, etc). So let's not get into that. I was raise in Philly and have lived out west
for the better part of 30 years. I am also proud to be from PA and I am proud of the FA's that I have done in Eastern PA. My point in my first post is that a lot of people other then climbers frequent Chickie's Rock. The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area. Go through the proper channel and work things out with the County of Lancaster. Enough said!


rwaltermyer


Apr 30, 2003, 5:12 PM
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I think this issue should be locked and layed to rest.
Please. Let's channel this energy towards planning a gathering, a cleanup, or anything more productive than bashing on each other.

Any Seconds?


sandbag


Apr 30, 2003, 5:15 PM
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My two cents:
I didnt even want to read the rest of the diatribe strewn about here, even though some of it is probably entertaining to say the least. If im repeating a former post with my sentiments, "excuse moi!" but take this angle. If its a State or County supported area, you can always try to work the "Separation of Church and state angle" and if that doesnt work, how about a nice bench back away from the rocks. IMHO, people that have to placard and ruminate the exact point of death for a person, are in need of some additional emotional healing and possibly counseling. Its ok to grieve, its natural. But to bestowe it upon us, and all the rest of the world isnt ok, and you wont be able to get closure.

well ok, thats more like 57 cents. bonus!
:?


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 5:21 PM
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whoa...

it is my understanding that the county could care less if the crosses were bolted on the rock, attached to a fence, or stuck in the ground.

there is clear separation of church and state issues here...we are out of this!!!

this is no longer our concern...go ahead and debate all you want

the county, state and federal parks are not graveyards or personal memorials, they simply can not allow it

period end of story

there is no compromise - none - we are not in this equation anymore


i second randy...lock this up...it is over folks


orangekyak


Apr 30, 2003, 5:25 PM
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bob, you have some interesting points, especially about many people using the land (we clearly share the feeling that management of natural resources goes deeper than human use) but ...

In reply to:
My point in my first post is that a lot of people other then climbers frequent Chickie's Rock. The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area.

I'm getting a sense that you're not really reading what I, and others, are writing. I said that climbers should feel ownership of rocks because too often nobody else does. Clearly, a couple of other people agree with the sentiment, including Coach, wideguy, and drector. Drector probably said it best:
In reply to:
just because you don't have legal possession of soemthing doesn't mean you can't claim it as being important to you enough to treat it like a possession to be safeguraded from evil. I consider the earth to be something of a possession... not that I own it and can do as I please but that I am responsible for it's well being. All climbers should be responsible for the well-being of all climbing areas and treat them like they own them. We don't own them but we are still responsible for them.


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 5:40 PM
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In reply to:
The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area. Go through the proper channel and work things out with the County of Lancaster. Enough said!

one more thing...my friends all know me...i won't let this go, you are bashing a climbing partner and friend of mine

you are totally off

jeremy was praising my initiative and the fact that that it was handled through county authorities in the first place


pfffffftttttt....get off your soapbox sprayer..."of many PA FA's" wtf has that got to do with anything other than petting your ego...


bobd1953


Apr 30, 2003, 5:49 PM
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Boy, I am really scared now! Anne chill-out. I am not bashing anyone. Just stating a few facts. You have rights just as the other people of Lancaster have rights. Go through the proper channels and take it as far as you need too!


danyelle


May 1, 2003, 10:58 PM
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In reply to:
Unbelievable.

Absolutely unbelievable!

I took some time to look back over the thread, and note some of the comments that bothered me. I was going to DISCUSS them here, but it appears any time someone expresses an opinion or concern that doesn't happen to comport with the loudest mouth in the thread they just get slammed. Ignorance is bliss.

Oh My God!!!

Rob,

I too tried to stay out of this but it gets increasingly hard as I read some of the self-righteous, illinformed commentary posted here. Rob I commend you for your input and I feel you hit the nail on the head in your first response. I have been quietly reading in the wings the comments made and am astounded at the idiosy and lack of respect displayed here. I will not bore anyone with lengthy commentary for I do not possess the poise to do it right now and I can't really say it any better than Rob already has. Thank you for giving this thread a more realistic, reasonable, and cooler tone than many of it's original respondants.

~Danyelle


climbinganne


May 5, 2003, 12:10 AM
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i laugh at the last comment made...so easy to sit on your fat ass and judge isnt it dannyhell???

i admitted i was wrong to jump to that conclusion even though the county said they didnt cut that tree down...you dont have enough character to ever do that, so watch your holier than thou attitude!


crag


May 5, 2003, 7:57 AM
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Iíve been climbing at Chickies Rock for over 20yrs. and Iíve always been more upset over the broken glass everywhere, impromptu fire pits, graffiti, trash and general lack of respect for the land by all its users than the recently affixed crosses. You want to talk about lack of stewardship this is an area of severe lacking.

As tragic as the deaths were the crosses wonít be there forever, trust me on this they wonít. The constitutional issue of separation of church and state does not apply here and I donít have enough time to explain it.

The real problem here is the permanent affixing of an object to the rock. It is in direct violation of county ordinances and the memorials must be removed. Thatís it plain and simple. Obviously there is a tactful and respectful way to go about it. Its shame that park officials did not take a more proactive stance when the first cross went up; instead they waited until an internet discussion by a bunch of climbers to do something about it.

If the crosses freak you out when you walk by them then good, nothing like a little stark reminder. The crosses do not block any routes; youíve just chosen not to climb on or over them. Remember they are not there as grave markers but as memorials. As far as the trees around the cliffs at Chickies, Iíd wish they would all be cut down except for some of the sycamores and locust. They are nothing but scrub tress that have grown up since the abandonment of the rail roadbed, the trail that we now walk on, closest to the rock face. These are the same tress that the power line companies and Penn Dot cut down all the time. Replant the area with tress that are indigenous to the region; oak, maple, cherry etc. Yeah they take longer to grow but the end result will be worth it.

This calling to arms, if you will, over the placing of these crosses and the now decision to have them removed by the enforcement of an all ready in place law has set back the work of others to allow fixed climbing anchors at Chickies Rock. Perhaps this is best though, because now maybe the park will develop a more detailed policy on climbing and the future of climbing at Chickies Rock.

Coincidently, the policy on rock climbing may already be changing because yesterday I witnessed a park ranger on foot patrol tell a group of young climbers that they could not climb because they did not have helmetsÖ..Hmmmmm, stayed tuned to your local channels for further information.


Partner sauron


May 5, 2003, 8:39 AM
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Re: Chickies Rock is a Cemetary??? [In reply to]
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i laugh at the last comment made...so easy to sit on your fat ass and judge isnt it dannyhell???

i admitted i was wrong to jump to that conclusion even though the county said they didnt cut that tree down...you dont have enough character to ever do that, so watch your holier than thou attitude!

Anne,

First off, you should be mature enough to get over the name calling - I quit name-calling in 3rd grade - one would think that such a well-aged woman as you, would have better sense than stooping down to a 3rd graders level.

Secondly, with this post, you have done nothing but prove leaverbiner's point.

Yes, we all know the poor sod of a newly hired county guy, initially said they had not cut down the tree. Later, he corrected himself, and admitted that they had indeed cut down the tree.

Ignorance is rarely an excuse - you should not have made the assumption initially - and, you would have saved yourself the faux pas, had you spent some extra time thinking about what you were accusing people of, earlier.

And I'm not sure that you're the right person to go telling others to stop their holier than thou attitude.. *cough*

- d.


climbinganne


May 5, 2003, 8:44 AM
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i laugh at the last comment made...so easy to sit on your fat ass and judge isnt it dannyhell???

i admitted i was wrong to jump to that conclusion even though the county said they didnt cut that tree down...you dont have enough character to ever do that, so watch your holier than thou attitude!

Anne,

First off, you should be mature enough to get over the name calling - I quit name-calling in 3rd grade - one would think that such a well-aged woman as you, would have better sense than stooping down to a 3rd graders level.

Secondly, with this post, you have done nothing but prove leaverbiner's point.

Yes, we all know the poor sod of a newly hired county guy, initially said they had not cut down the tree. Later, he corrected himself, and admitted that they had indeed cut down the tree.

Ignorance is rarely an excuse - you should not have made the assumption initially - and, you would have saved yourself the faux pas, had you spent some extra time thinking about what you were accusing people of, earlier.

And I'm not sure that you're the right person to go telling others to stop their holier than thou attitude.. *cough*

- d.


no dom..she still owes me money and an apology...

i didnt have to post i was wrong...i did it anyhow

i am done here...

the crosses will be removed..that is what this all was for..mission accomplished..some of us didnt sit around..others sat and waited and then jumped in and opened their mouths, after the dirty work was done..yeah..that's character...


Partner sauron


May 5, 2003, 9:16 AM
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the crosses will be removed..that is what this all was for..

God bless our right to pristine rock, eh?

I can smell the irony.

- d.


Partner polarwid


May 5, 2003, 6:18 PM
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The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area. Go through the proper channel and work things out with the County of Lancaster. Enough said!

one more thing...my friends all know me...i won't let this go, you are bashing a climbing partner and friend of mine

you are totally off

jeremy was praising my initiative and the fact that that it was handled through county authorities in the first place


pfffffftttttt....get off your soapbox sprayer..."of many PA FA's" wtf has that got to do with anything other than petting your ego...

Anne, take it easy on Bob...he is one of the mellowist guys I have ever climbed with, besides Earl Wiggins. He has probably put up more FA's on more crags than this entire site put together, but you don't hear him spray on it. Look at a GUIDEBOOK for the GARDEN OF THE GODS, SHELF ROAD, GUNKS, PA QUARRIES, SOUTH PLATTE, ELEVEN MILE...etc...etc... and you will see he knows what he is talking about. He was simply making a point that he is well acquainted with PA climbing. Shoot, he probably wrote half the guidebooks out there, if HORST didn't!


rwaltermyer


May 5, 2003, 6:21 PM
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....i only wish that this thread would go to the cemetary....

LOCK IT. PLEASE.


Partner sauron


May 6, 2003, 8:45 AM
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....i only wish that this thread would go to the cemetary....

LOCK IT. PLEASE.

If it bothers you that much, stop reading the thread.

DUH.

- d.


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