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Chickies Rock is a Cemetary???
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Partner cliffhanger9
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Apr 29, 2003, 7:05 AM
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i have been to chickies a couple times when there was only the one cross and thought that was kinda wierd...i agree...those belongs somewhere else...not bolted to the rock

the new ones and the tree are disturbing also.

so...yeah Anne! rock on! 8)

i know u ll continue to post the progress of this issue and i would love to come out and help (and meet you all) with whatever decision is made. lemme know if i can help!

keep up the good work!!

ROCK ON!! http://216.40.249.192/...n/tongue/tongue3.gif


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 6:40 AM
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i am sitting here at this keyboard not quite knowing what to type...i feel humbled by this whole experience...truly saddened and although we will eventually get our routes back...i don't feel like a winner

i received word today from Mr. Weiss...

Anne,

I just wanted to get back to you regarding your email about Chickies Rock.
First, I was unable to open your pictures. Is it possible for you to download
them and send them to me as jpeg attachments? I have a meeting with the County
Administrator on May 16 and I would like to show the pictures to her. It will
be at this meeting that we will request her guidance on the best way to remove
the memorials.

Second, I wanted to let you know that the tree that was cut down was done so by
our maintenance staff. Apparently the tree was quite heavily damaged by one of
the victims during their fall and our park arborist concluded that it needed to
be taken down. Our staff will be returning to the site within the next couple
of days to chip the tree.

I hope this answers some of your concerns for now. I will be back in touch once
a decision regarding the memorials has been made. Please send those pictures if
possible and feel free to contact me with any further questions.

Sincerely,

Paul D. Weiss, Assistant Director
Lancaster County Dept. of Parks and Rec.



after i read Mr. Weiss's e-mail, my heart sank...i called him to ask him if we could possibly still turn that tree into a belay bench, that we would be there tomorrow, he said they plan on doing the chipping today :cry:


and he informed me that it is in fact written in "black and white" - "no alterations of any kind to the rock"

so...the county is handling this as delicate as they possibly can...for a number of reasons...

respect for the families that lost their loved ones recently

and obvious political reasons

after paul's meeting on May sixteenth there will more than likely be a letter sent to the families of the victims explaining park policy and the families have an allotted time to come and gather their memorials .

i did not mention the picnic table, i felt at this point it was inappropriate to do so

paul explained to me today that he just got this position with the county...

gosh, what a way to have to settle into his new job...


thank you all for your help...


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 7:31 AM
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wow! u are wonder women and quick too ,my busy little beaver.
AA put the sweet smell of that two stoke motor oil permeating the air, the roar of that engine, the smell of the wood being nulled away at. Really gets my motor running! :cry: G I guess will just to climb! :roll:


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 7:41 AM
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i am going to bring it anyway...maybe the county maintanence had something else to do today, i really feel like crap dennis...


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 9:07 AM
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i am going to bring it anyway...maybe the county maintanence had something else to do today, i really feel like crap dennis...

Crap my ass > u did good, I mean great" Wonder Women"
You got read of the crosses...Thats a biggy! they really did give me the hebe gibes

So thank u very much!
always...right or wrong Dennis

O I'm talking to Dave about Great Fall 9th or 10th u up for it...
Shit thats wkend we where going to? Crap I fuck up...


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 9:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
i am going to bring it anyway...maybe the county maintanence had something else to do today, i really feel like crap dennis...

Crap my ass > u did good, I mean great" Wonder Women"
You got read of the crosses...Thats a biggy! they really did give me the hebe gibes

So thank u very much!
always...right or wrong Dennis

O I'm talking to Dave about Great Fall 9th or 10th u up for it...
s___ thats wkend we where going to? Crap I f___ up...

great falls huh..not kid friendly enough...especially this time of year

abi and i are hanging in pa that weekend..it is the next weekend dennis...sssssshhhhhhh...

looks like phillycheese is joining us at NRP too...


Partner sauron


Apr 30, 2003, 9:19 AM
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In reply to:
Second, I wanted to let you know that the tree that was cut down was done so by
our maintenance staff. Apparently the tree was quite heavily damaged by one of
the victims during their fall and our park arborist concluded that it needed to
be taken down. Our staff will be returning to the site within the next couple
of days to chip the tree.

This was interesting, as I was just about to point out that it's bad to assume that it was the family of the deceased who cut down the tree..

And no, Anne, I was not trying to be an ass.

- d.


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Second, I wanted to let you know that the tree that was cut down was done so by
our maintenance staff. Apparently the tree was quite heavily damaged by one of
the victims during their fall and our park arborist concluded that it needed to
be taken down. Our staff will be returning to the site within the next couple
of days to chip the tree.

This was interesting, as I was just about to point out that it's bad to assume that it was the family of the deceased who cut down the tree..

And no, Anne, I was not trying to be an ass.

- d.

yes dom...i feel very very bad about this...


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 9:48 AM
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In reply to:
we need to discuss every avenue..i could and am wrong (heh, often!)...

i am not trying to defend myself, my assumptions were wrong...and disrespected those families, to which, i am so sorry about...

i guess finding out that mr. weiss is new in his position expains why he told me he had no idea a tree was taken down...

to me that meant the county didnt do it...


leaverbiner


Apr 30, 2003, 9:55 AM
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I read through this long thread with mixed emotions, going from content calm observer to desiring to be engaged. Repeatedly I convinced myself to restrain from responding to what I saw as elitist and hypocritical arguments . . . but, statements such as "get our routes back" just rang in my ears, and I had to finally allow the dam to be opened . . .

I read through so much crap about "how could these families disrespect the rock and nature" and in many cases referring to the rock as "ours" etc . . . it's pathetic. Then, as it turns out, a huge portion of the actions attributed to these families, and certainly the linchpin of the cause to have their actions condemned and their memorials wiped away, weren't even committed by the families, i.e. the cutting down of a tree.

It never ceases to amaze me how selfish people can be. Often those being selfish not realizing it, or doing so under the guise of "good for the community".

Don't forget one important thing, these families lost loved ones.

The thread is replete with condolences and so forth, but how backhanded do those look when followed up by, "your grieving shouldn't be allowed where I chose to spend my free time" or "your memorial is something I don't want to have to see when I am climbing." No these aren't exact quotes, but they certainly express the underlying intent of many of the posts.

I am not saying that we should encourage these types of memorials. What I am saying is that some sort of dialogue should have been opened with the families or some investigation into FACTS should have been done before spewing blame and condemnation.

The energy exhibited by Anne and others is certainly admirable, but I think there was a lack of direction. People jumped to conclusions, and from my vantage point ,it appeared to be both for selfish reasons and/or to make some sort of "look at me i'm saving our climbing area" kind of statement.

those are my impressions from this thread . . . they may very well be influenced or skewed by numerous recent developments in other areas of PA where I've been witness to people being a bit cavalier, or naive about situations. People without the necessary experience (climbing, access, politics) trying to run off and do what they think will "make a difference" or earn them some props from others in the community, or somehow legitimize their standing in the community "see what I have done . . . now I belong to this elitist club called CLIMBER" . . . I know this is a bit rambling and maybe I will try to put it in a clearer form shortly, but I had to at least let some ideas flow . . .


rwaltermyer


Apr 30, 2003, 10:07 AM
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uh.oh.
i can sense that now the sh!t is gonna hit the fan.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Other than that I'll keep my 2 cents to myself.


climbinganne


Apr 30, 2003, 10:36 AM
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Then, as it turns out, a huge portion of the actions attributed to these families, and certainly the linchpin of the cause to have their actions condemned and their memorials wiped away, weren't even committed by the families, i.e. the cutting down of a tree.

i am not going to comment on everything you said..you don't know me..you can judge me anyway you see fit...

but i was armed with my camera that day BEFORE i knew about the 3rd cross and BEFORE i saw the tree...

no it was always about the crosses bolted to the wall, the others just added to the intensity of the moment...my bad...again, i called the county they said they weren't aware of a downed tree by their hands...

continue to flame away with your elitist and hypocritical arguments


leaverbiner


Apr 30, 2003, 10:59 AM
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Funny - I didn't see my post as being a flame - nevermind the fact that my comments weren't addressed solely or specifically at you. I even went so far as to compliment you on your ambitiousness. Yes, I questioned the motivation, but I expressed it as a doubt about what the motivation truly was, that's not JUDGING.


furryfrisbee


Apr 30, 2003, 11:17 AM
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In reply to:
It never ceases to amaze me how selfish people can be. Often those being selfish not realizing it, or doing so under the guise of "good for the community".

And then:

The energy exhibited by Anne and others is certainly admirable, but I think there was a lack of direction. People jumped to conclusions, and from my vantage point ,it appeared to be both for selfish reasons and/or to make some sort of "look at me i'm saving our climbing area" kind of statement.

But he's not being judgemental. Anne, I commend you on what you've done. You brought it to the attention of the proper authorities, and now they can deal with it in the fashion they feel best. The people that put up the crosses did so without the authorization needed for such a display. As with ANY defacement, it should be removed, be it bolts, anchors, rap stations, spray painting, or even crosses. I will always be one of your fans Anne.


orangekyak


Apr 30, 2003, 11:25 AM
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If nobody assumes possession of a resource, nobody protects it. The county's rock is everyone's rock. I live three states away and feel strongly about it. Why? Because we are the people who care about the rock, so we are the ones who look after it.

So many times the rules and laws go against the climbers. this is an example of the rules and laws going for the climbers' cause.

you will not see a "I'm sorry about your loved one" in my post. the loved one didn't put the cross up on OUR rock.

we should take responsibility for the rock and feel ownership for it. nobody else will.


coach


Apr 30, 2003, 1:00 PM
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Jeremy,
You are right on the money on this one. Too many areas (not just climbing!) have been lost to the public because people refused to take responsibility for it and expected everything to be handled by the state, county, etc. Defacement, litter, vandalism, it all is done daily and far too many people simply look the other way. If it is public land, it is our land! When we all begin to take responsibility and not accept inappropriate actions by others then the lands will again be ours. We all have to get involved! Keep it up Anne!

Climb On


bobd1953


Apr 30, 2003, 1:02 PM
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I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber. It belongs to the peolpe of Lancaster County! Don't be so self-center and try to understand the emotions and reasons on the part of the family who lost a love one. I wouldn't do what they did, but I can also understand why they did it.


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 1:10 PM
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Not being judgemental my ass! Two Faced maybe.
So you what to kick someone in the ass and shake there hand at the same time... You what to be the Big Guy. Then listen don't read between the lines don't stand on a podium and preach reverend Rob.
90 percent of these people in these forms are adolescent or just people looking for help in one way or another. This is there sounding board there throwing there ideas out looking for the right answers.
If those jumpers had a place like this then maybe there out come would be different. But you get more bees with honey then you do with a bunch of Shit.
So you can be a part of the solution or the problem. you pick!
There hearts where in the right spot . The solution was come to and executed. the right decision was made. don't come in here throw your 2 bits around like your shit don't stink. The easiest thing to do is stand back and criticize! Be a part of the solution!
Thank you very much


Partner drector


Apr 30, 2003, 1:27 PM
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In reply to:
I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber. It belongs to the peolpe of Lancaster County!

If he is one of the people of that county then he can say that it is partially his.

Also, just because you don't have legal possession of soemthing doesn't mean you can't claim it as being important to you enough to treat it like a possession to be safeguraded from evil. I consider the earth to be something of a possession... not that I own it and can do as I please but that I am responsible for it's well being. All climbers should be responsible for the well-being of all climbing areas and treat them like they own them. We don't own them but we are still responsible for them.

As for the crosses, I find them in poor taste. They usually reflect someone elses failure to move on with their life. Mourning for too long could be considered an emotional problem and I don't want to see relics of other peoples emotional problems littering the highways and crags. It is just more visual polution to litter a landscape already polluted with advertising signs, fences, and automobiles. Let the crosses stay for a while then remove them or ask an official who oversees the area to do it. At some point, it is just litter bolted to a rock.


Partner wideguy


Apr 30, 2003, 1:29 PM
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In reply to:
I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber...

Nor does it "belong" to the grieving families or friends or whoever it turns out put up the memorials, by that logic. So Anne's efforts to return it to it's natural and unblemished state is even more appropriate, especially in light of the revelation that such actions ARE prohibited by the county. I agree with Orangekyak, if we don't assume some stewardship, not ownership, of public lands, noone will.

And I still fail to see how it's hypocritical to feel sympathy for the families of the deceased but disagree with their choice of memorial.

I'm with Anne. I think she handled it respectfully and appropriately and should feel no shame for anything she did.


lemon_boy


Apr 30, 2003, 1:55 PM
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i am pretty surprised at the fact that in 5 pages of discussion nobody really mentions the irony (or possibly hypocricy) of this whole thread, and pretty much the rock climbing attitutde in general. all over the country and all over the world climbers leave bolts, pins, webbing, etcetera merely for enjoyment, bragging rites, (insert your favorite reason for climbing). somebody puts a few bolts in to leave a memorial and they get crucified for it. sure, the crosses may be unsightly, but aren't our bolts, project tags, chalk marks, powerbar wrappers, tape, and access-fund-wheelchair-friendly-trails unsightly as well? we complain about a tree being cut down, yet have no problems with trundling tons of rock from cliff faces, gardening out cracks, etc. anybody been to the base of a lot of routes at potrero? how many trees and plants bit the bullet there? look at the routes there, all blistered by patches of brown where the crowbar "cleaned" the route up a bit. shelf road in colorado - the access fund might as well pave the trails along the base of the cliffs 'just to keep erosion under control'. god knows the hundreds of examples that could be pointed out here.

as polarwid noted, there are quite a few places where there are plaques of one sort or another (turkey perch in colorado, as polarwid would probably remember). just climb around it and get over it. do you honestly think that taking it to the county authorities and protesting this 'absolutely holocaustic act' is going to do the climbing community any good? if this shit hit the papers it would be the climbers that would end up getting crucified. we would look like a bunch of petty, hypocritical, arrogant assholes who don't have respect for anybody but ourselves.

we expect the community to look the other way when it comes to our selfish little hobby. i think the little memorials are a small price to pay to keep relations between climbers and the community in good terms.


leaverbiner


Apr 30, 2003, 2:21 PM
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Unbelievable.

"ezjay40" your personal attacks are completely unnecessary and totally miss the point (not to mention being a perfect example of the rampant hypocracy in this thread!).

I did not single anyone out in my first response, I only singled-out Anne to commend her for her desire and initiative. There is nothing wrong with praising and giving advice at the same time, it does not amount to being two faced. Yes, I have criticisms of the viewpoints espoused by those in this thread. But, at the same time, I am in agreement with many of these same people on other issues. My initial post was a free flow of ideas, thoughts, concerns, and impressions. There was no preaching. It astounds me that you and others come here just to pick a fight.

Absolutely unbelievable!

I took some time to look back over the thread, and note some of the comments that bothered me. I was going to DISCUSS them here, but it appears any time someone expresses an opinion or concern that doesn't happen to comport with the loudest mouth in the thread they just get slammed. Ignorance is bliss.


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 2:36 PM
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Yah lemon
I don't like all the bolting that's going on today put I'm not going to smash you for it... I just will not climb there. And my State does not allow it. But I do try to understand it as being a safe way to get into climbing. Bring the numbers up. so on and so forth... I'm just going to try and win one person over at a time. But I will leave a sling or a piece of pro in a heart beat to get off a climb safely. Hope one day someone like anne will come back and clean my mess up... Thats my best shoping day climbing on mondays.
So what can I say, right or wrong


ezjay40


Apr 30, 2003, 2:39 PM
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quart short dollar late Rob


orangekyak


Apr 30, 2003, 4:30 PM
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In reply to:
I hate to break it to you "Orangekyak" unless you hold title or deed on the rock it doesn't belong to you or any other rock climber. It belongs to the peolpe of Lancaster County!
Right on. I don't live in Lancaster County, I made that clear. I have lived in PA and take pride in the state. My comment was suggesting that in our society, only those who take ownership (as Chad said, "stewardship") of things actually act to take care of it.

So since I'm not from Lancaster County, should I not show up for a trail day at Chickie's? I am on rc.com, so I think I have a right to comment on anything in a public forum.

In reply to:
Don't be so self-center and try to understand the emotions and reasons on the part of the family who lost a love one. I wouldn't do what they did, but I can also understand why they did it.
You reminded us yourself that it's county property. There's nothing legal or moral about permanently defacing public property. They certainly could have made a donation to the park to be used for warning signs or improvements that can be enjoyed by all (such as picnic table). It's not a matter of understanding someone's loss. You don't know who I've lost (mostly because I'm not going to force it upon you). But if you can understand an immoral, illegal, and arguably gruesome act of vandalism, I hardly expect you to understand me.

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