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k.l.k


Jun 11, 2009, 3:24 PM
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Re: [pfwein] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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pfwein wrote:
[T]he comparison is not of the DT situation to Nazi Germany, if is of the relationships of the various actors (i.e., Dingus's I don't care about DT closure because I don't climb there is in fact analogous to the actors in the cited poem). . . . If you don't like the analogy, great.

This might be helpful-- if I understand you correctly, you're telling us that you're not a whacko, you just don't understand how analogy works or why it's had such a bad reputation as a mode of argument.

So far as "illiterate tool," it wasn't a part of my argument. It was a decorative flourish. I'm feeling Baroque today.


Partner drector


Jun 11, 2009, 3:31 PM
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Re: [pfwein] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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pfwein,

The poem speaks volumes about human nature. It's sad but we do what it describes every day in our lives; ignore philisophical issues because they don't directly affect us only to eventually find that they do affect us.

On the other hand, using Nazi Germany and the holocaust as some sort of analogy or comparison to events related to rock climbing is a little offensive. Taking candy from a baby is not so mean and if I did anything in my life where you used that analogy, I would not be offended. If you called me a Nazi in an analogy, I would assume you are comparing me to someone who was responsible for killing millions of people and I would find that offensive. I may be an ass sometimes and "take candy from a baby" but I would not be a "Nazi" and "kill millions".

the holocaust should not be taken so lightly that it is used in simplistic analogies or compared to events in rock climbing. it minimizes the significance of that event while inflating the events in rock climbing way about their importance.

It's an internet forum and it's likely that those who argue are totally wrong when interpreting the other persons point-of-view. You guys should try to keep that in mind when throwing out the insults and the Nazi references.

Dave


pfwein


Jun 11, 2009, 3:46 PM
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Re: [drector] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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OK, for the "historical record" that is apparently being created here, I did not intend for anyone to infer that I believe that the closure of DT is comparable to the events leading to the Holocaust. Rather, I simply meant to invoke the principle that, as you put it, we "ignore philosophical issues because they don't directly affect us only to eventually find that they do affect us."
I'm fond the of poem (I'd imagine many of you have heard it before) and thought it would be worth reflecting on for its own merits, as well as being generally on point to Dingus's view, although of obviously incomparable overall significance.
It will be left to each reader to determine whether it is I, k.l.k, or perhaps both of us who fail to understand how analogy works. (And I'm sure many will take k.l.k.'s side, although in my view they're incorrect. This happens whenever anyone invokes something that happened to Jesus as being comparable to his own life (although "my cross to bear" seems ok as a set phrase). All of a sudden, according to detractors, that person just compared himself to Jesus, and obviously has a god like complex, etc.. If you're one of those detractors, you should in fact side with k.l.k. If you're someone who hears about that and thinks "don't those people understand it's just an analogy", maybe you'll have some sympathy for me.
I think that's a wrap for me on this one.


dingus


Jun 11, 2009, 5:51 PM
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Re: [pfwein] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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In all fairness to me, the 'I don't climb there' was aimed at Devil's Tower and was more an acknowledgement that local voices have far greater weight. An admission if you will, to make clear my opinion of Devil's Tower is irrelevant in the grand scheme.

I'm one helluva lot more local to Cave Rock and the Washoe. Hell, twice in the past two weeks I was on their reservation east of there, at Pyramid Lake.

If I put all the work into that place I would most definitely have a far different perspective than I did.

I don't support the Cave Rock closure on the stated grounds. I donated to causes to help fight the closure.

With the bolts coming out - seems over to me.

DMT


desertwanderer81


Jun 12, 2009, 1:06 AM
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Re: [pfwein] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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pfwein wrote:
dingus wrote:
I don't have a problem at all with the volunteer thing at Devils Tower. Not one bit. Course I don't climb there haha
DMT
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

"First they came…" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Some people get offended when one compares life-and-death situations (Nazis) with recreation (rock climbing access)--but some people get offended about anything. The point is the same--if you really care promoting climbing access (I do as do many other climbers, many climbers don't), get involved and do what you can.
That doesn't mean all climbing access everywhere all the time, just as if you care about 2nd Amendment rights that doesn't mean you think everyone should be able to own/possess any type of weapon everywhere, or if you care about abortion rights that you think every pregnant woman should allowed to have an abortion up to 1 minute before giving birth, with no restrictions.
Truth is that climbing access is under attack for largely the same reasons in many places (it causes "psychic damage" to (some) Indians or would-be "pioneers" (City of Rocks) or whomever).
If you think that's wrong, do what you can to make your voice heard.

Godwin!


pfwein


Jun 12, 2009, 9:38 AM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
Godwin!
OK, I had meant to be finished with this, but a new allegation warrants a response. I did not mean to compare anyone with Nazis (and I don't think I really did--that is the basis of my disagreement with k.l.k.)
I did mean to compare what I perceived to be Dingus's attitude of "It's not my problem" with the sentiments expressed by Niemoller. Obviously the scope of the problems facing rock climbers and those facing persecution by a totalitarian regime are entirely different.
On a separate point (and what really justifies this post, if anything does), I want to acknowledge Dingus' post that he did oppose the closing of Cave Rock and made some effort to stop it. I applaud that and thank him for his efforts, and I'll try to do the same locally. We won't win every battle, but at least we can fight the good fight.


(This post was edited by pfwein on Jun 12, 2009, 9:39 AM)


dingus


Jun 12, 2009, 9:44 AM
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Re: [pfwein] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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Thanks for that. Your 'first they came for some east coast crag' point was well taken btw. I got your drift. Its a valid point.

However, sometimes access issues are clouded by details and facts far beyond the concerns of our climbing tribe. Such was Cave Rock. An all or nothing proposition is not really supportable either.

Have to pick and choose battles, same as it ever was?

Cheers,

DMT


apeman_e


Jun 12, 2009, 10:04 AM
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Re: [pfwein] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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I thought the analogy was insightful.

I thought the poem was very thought provoking, and I'm glad that I've now read it.

I think anyone that took the use of this analogy to mean that rock climbing closures are tantamount to nazi genocide are trying to find a problem, which is nothing new around here. An extreme analogy, no doubt, but I see what pfwein was trying to express.


k.l.k


Jun 12, 2009, 10:41 AM
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Re: [apeman_e] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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apeman_e wrote:
I think anyone that took the use of this analogy to mean that rock climbing closures are tantamount to nazi genocide are trying to find a problem, which is nothing new around here. An extreme analogy, no doubt, but I see what pfwein was trying to express.

Your first and second sentences conflict. Your claim that the only folks likely to criticize pfwein's use of Niemoeller here are simply typical flamers "trying to find a problem" is at odds with your own description of the analogy as "extreme." But "extreme" is on the money: The notion that Niemoeller's reference isn't Nazism is simply absurd.

I am willing accept pfwein's explanation that he didn't mean for one of the most famous quotations associated with the Holocaust to actually reference Nazism. All of us can be clumsy with quotation and analogy down in the tubez.

For all the lurkers, there are two problems with using Niemoeller in this context. First, the analogy likens climbers to Jews and other vicitims of Nazism whil identifying the feds, native Americans, and any other folks pursuing closures of climbing land to Nazis. Pfwein may not have "intended" that meaning, but it is there. Second, the thrust of Niemoeller's statement* is a quintessentially modern Protestant faith in the oneness of humankind: Jews, Communists, gypsies, etc. All are equal and all deserve the same support and sympathy.

In this context, the analogy would mean that all access issues are exactly the same: Big mining corporations subverting national monuments, state parks banning climbing while allowing sport rappelling, private landowners prohibiting poaching, NPS banning power drills on El Cap, Auburn Quarry getting filled in, Native American groups asking for voluntary seasonal closures on Devil's Tower, all represent the exact same kind and quantity of evil, and all should be opposed equally.

Some of you may join apeman in finding that part of the analogy insightful. To me, that level of the analogy is also so wrongheaded that I find apeman's enthusiasm difficult to understand. What strikes me most forcefully about the many access issues confronting the climbing community is how very different most of them are. I don't see the Washo's claims to Cave Rock as morally equivalent to Acme Mining Cos. claims to a national monument. But go ahead, party like it's 1999.

*Niemoeller's quote is not easy to pin down. See Herbert Marcuse's essay in source criticism here:

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/...lty/marcuse/niem.htm

Edit for typo.


(This post was edited by k.l.k on Jun 12, 2009, 10:42 AM)


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jun 12, 2009, 1:52 PM
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Re: [k.l.k] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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Poaching?


desertwanderer81


Jun 12, 2009, 6:00 PM
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Re: [dingus] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
desertwanderer81 wrote:
agdavis wrote:
[quote "roughster"]I agree! If it gets closed, lets return it too it's pre-climber state:

- Piles of trash everywhere
- Old tires
- Human Crap (as in feces)
- No nice flagstone paths (going to have to pull them all up)
- Weeds and thistles. (we'll have to retransplant some of these back into the area)
- Loosely glue on a ton of rubble and death blocks climbers knocked off. Mind you, they need to be precariously perched and ready to fall at any time.

I mean, we climbers are ruining their "spritual" experience! Lets give it back to them. Oh, and everytime a climber is in the Tahoe area, feel free to "drop a load" on by.[/quote]

+1

From what I understand, they weren't even using the area till climbers cleaned it up.....

The way you phrase this suggests you have no direct personal knowledge of this issue, at all. When you say ' climbers' you surely mean a handful of self-appointed locals who sorta moved in there and did what they wanted, like paving the floor, etc.

Personally I think the fucking paving stones were the camel that broke the straw's back. What you basically had - whether these locals care to admit it or not - was a small group practically seizing control of a public and cultural resource, for their own amusement and none other.

Now we climbers do that, don't get me wrong. I do that.

All I am saying is there are two sides to this story and you will rarely get the full scoop from a Tahoe local, no offence to them.

The rock is so insignificant in any meaningful terms that this is and will remain a local thing. The Washoe were here long before spandex clad sport climbers decided Cave Rock was their playground.

All that said I agree with you that allowing an indian group to exert control over public land resources on religious grounds is the same as allowing a christian group to erect a cross on public lands - with all the attendant precedence in law concerning 'come one, come all.'

The only way to reclaim Cave Rock now is

1. Constitutional challenge - who has the money for THAT?

2. Form a Cult of Climbing, fix it with enough trappings to get recognized as a cult, then claim access on cultural grounds using the 'if you let them you have to let us.'

But the bolts are being pulled or have been pulled. I think the biggest reason for this is - 'they' (someone in the government) know that the Washoe access is tenuous at best and built on very shakey constitutional grounds.

But I think they also know that if the bolts come out, they will not likely go back in - ever. The end result to a constitutional challenge now would be - FINE! Climbers can come back. But no fixed pro.

That would be a very.... 'hollow' (haha) victory indeed.

Smart fuckers, to pull the bolts. The locals know what it means. Put a fork in Cave Rock - it is one and truly OVER.

RIP Slayer.

DMT

Heh.... my knowledge of the area does indeed come from several tahoe locals.... and it sucks driving by it many times and thinking how much fun it would be to climb and how close it is!

Anyhow, for me, it really isn't even about the climbing, it's about the principle.

Because people were climbing, doesn't mean that the indians can't have their religious ceremony. And the goverment is exactly saying that their one ceremony trumps others right to use the land. This is unconstitutional.

But you're right in that it's not worth the fight. But it is certainly worth the gripe space to complain about the First Amendment being violated! This is much more of an anti-religion kick than a climbing kick.


apeman_e


Jun 12, 2009, 6:11 PM
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Re: [k.l.k] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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k.l.k wrote:
apeman_e wrote:
I think anyone that took the use of this analogy to mean that rock climbing closures are tantamount to nazi genocide are trying to find a problem, which is nothing new around here. An extreme analogy, no doubt, but I see what pfwein was trying to express.

Your first and second sentences conflict. Your claim that the only folks likely to criticize pfwein's use of Niemoeller here are simply typical flamers "trying to find a problem" is at odds with your own description of the analogy as "extreme." But "extreme" is on the money: The notion that Niemoeller's reference isn't Nazism is simply absurd.

I am willing accept pfwein's explanation that he didn't mean for one of the most famous quotations associated with the Holocaust to actually reference Nazism. All of us can be clumsy with quotation and analogy down in the tubez.

For all the lurkers, there are two problems with using Niemoeller in this context. First, the analogy likens climbers to Jews and other vicitims of Nazism whil identifying the feds, native Americans, and any other folks pursuing closures of climbing land to Nazis. Pfwein may not have "intended" that meaning, but it is there. Second, the thrust of Niemoeller's statement* is a quintessentially modern Protestant faith in the oneness of humankind: Jews, Communists, gypsies, etc. All are equal and all deserve the same support and sympathy.

In this context, the analogy would mean that all access issues are exactly the same: Big mining corporations subverting national monuments, state parks banning climbing while allowing sport rappelling, private landowners prohibiting poaching, NPS banning power drills on El Cap, Auburn Quarry getting filled in, Native American groups asking for voluntary seasonal closures on Devil's Tower, all represent the exact same kind and quantity of evil, and all should be opposed equally.

Some of you may join apeman in finding that part of the analogy insightful. To me, that level of the analogy is also so wrongheaded that I find apeman's enthusiasm difficult to understand. What strikes me most forcefully about the many access issues confronting the climbing community is how very different most of them are. I don't see the Washo's claims to Cave Rock as morally equivalent to Acme Mining Cos. claims to a national monument. But go ahead, party like it's 1999.

*Niemoeller's quote is not easy to pin down. See Herbert Marcuse's essay in source criticism here:

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/...lty/marcuse/niem.htm

Edit for typo.

KIK wrote, "I simply meant to invoke the principle that, as you put it, we "ignore philosophical issues because they don't directly affect us only to eventually find that they do affect us."

This is where my "enthusiasm" comes from. I could tell that pfwein meant nothing more than that. You probably knew he meant nothing more as well....


dingus


Jun 12, 2009, 6:22 PM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] Cave Rock Closing [In reply to]
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
But you're right in that it's not worth the fight. But it is certainly worth the gripe space to complain about the First Amendment being violated! This is much more of an anti-religion kick than a climbing kick.

Right on. Cheers

DMT

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