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jcinco


Aug 7, 2003, 10:47 AM
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Poll on chipping
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The goal of this unscientific poll is to gauge the community's views on, and acceptance of, chipping.

There are three questions below. Each question poses a scenario which route developers may face. The question of whether it is acceptable to chip existing, freed, routes is not included in this poll, since it is clear that the community is unanimously opposed to such behavior.

Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comfortizing holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.

Post your responses to the three questions with either a YES (chipping is acceptable), NO (not acceptable), or NO OPINION (i.e. ambilvilence or don't care). No justifications please... this is a poll, not a discussion.

Thanks,
-JC

QUESTIONS:

1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is 12plus/13minus spots a great line with mostly fun 5.12 climbing. However, there is one very difficult section. Though the holds are there, and the moves are obvious, the developer isn't even remotely strong enough to free this section. He thinks that if the holds in the crux section are just a slight bit bigger, he can redpoint the route at a grade near his limit. Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?

3) A beautiful, severly overhanging shield of completely blank stone is located in a cave. The cave is of no interest to anyone except bats and the occasional hiker. It is clear that no human could ever free-climb such a steep, featureless swath of rock. Any possible route on this wall would have to be nearly 100%, completely manufactured: chipping, drilled pockets, chisseling, etc. Since this route could never be climbed anyway, is it acceptable to chip in this case?


fanederhand


Aug 7, 2003, 10:50 AM
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DXXX no to all of the above.


chirp


Aug 7, 2003, 10:51 AM
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1) yes

2) yes

3) no


brianinslc


Aug 7, 2003, 10:52 AM
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No to all three.

Brian in SLC


bluelip


Aug 7, 2003, 10:53 AM
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Not acceptable in any of the above cases.

Mike Coles
'bluelip'


killclimbz


Aug 7, 2003, 10:54 AM
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In reply to:

1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is 12plus/13minus spots a great line with mostly fun 5.12 climbing. However, there is one very difficult section. Though the holds are there, and the moves are obvious, the developer isn't even remotely strong enough to free this section. He thinks that if the holds in the crux section are just a slight bit bigger, he can redpoint the route at a grade near his limit. Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?
Not very acceptable and lame.

In reply to:
2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
This is the only case that I don't have much of a problem with.

In reply to:
3) A beautiful, severly overhanging shield of completely blank stone is located in a cave. The cave is of no interest to anyone except bats and the occasional hiker. It is clear that no human could ever free-climb such a steep, featureless swath of rock. Any possible route on this wall would have to be nearly 100%, completely manufactured: chipping, drilled pockets, chisseling, etc. Since this route could never be climbed anyway, is it acceptable to chip in this case?

Stoopid, build a wall.


xanx


Aug 7, 2003, 10:57 AM
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1)no
2)no - it sounds like a stupid route anyway
3)yes IF the "chipper" owns the rock. if it isn't clearly his and only his property, then NO.


fanederhand


Aug 7, 2003, 10:58 AM
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And one more thing. People that want to create their own route should build one not destroy what God placed on the earth (with public land that is). I understand that piton craft can damage the rock but it is unintentional and not used that often anymore. Or if a person wants to buy a cliff and then screw with it. ... Then there is bolting for sport routes ... acceptable I guess if done within reason. Trad is where it is at. Leave no trace is the best ethic I think.


crotch


Aug 7, 2003, 10:59 AM
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1. NO

2. NO

3. NO


climbhigh23


Aug 7, 2003, 11:00 AM
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1 - no
2 - no
3 - no, unless it is a private rock cave, in which case the owner can do whatever he/she feels they need to.....but if they chip it, they are lame.


killclimbz


Aug 7, 2003, 11:27 AM
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In reply to:
1 - no
2 - no
3 - no, unless it is a private rock cave, in which case the owner can do whatever he/she feels they need to.....but if they chip it, they are lame.

If the person owns the land in any of these situations they can do what they want.


slabmaster


Aug 7, 2003, 11:32 AM
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Interesting choise of words in your survey...

1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is

2) ... It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route ...

3) ... The cave is of no interest to anyone ...

I know of a climb in Yosemite that is beyond my limit, I'm not interested in, and (as far as I know) nobody else is interested in it. So.....


toejam


Aug 7, 2003, 11:40 AM
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No No and No

My thinking is, think about the climbers 50 years from now, when gecko-tape gloves or somesuch is standard issue. They'll be all pissed that your blank face is chipped, because it could have been their 5.17d


dlintz


Aug 7, 2003, 11:40 AM
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1. NO

2. NO

3. NO


billcoe_


Aug 7, 2003, 11:59 AM
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no - no - no - no - no Hope that caught them all.

NO.

How about this, a 5.6 climber chips holds so that the 5.7 he is attempting becomes do-able for him/her? (That one is right in line with your questions.)

uhhh.. NO.

Around here, the debate is, if a good hold has a sharper than hell edge, wherein you get a mandatory cut (most people most of the time), is it ok to smack it with a nut or a hex and slightly erode the sharpness of the edge?

Yes.

Now on to the Arnold for gov poll.....


joshklingbeil


Aug 7, 2003, 12:00 PM
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No x 3 Chipping sucks .....


joeschmoe


Aug 9, 2003, 8:16 PM
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no no and no. if you can't climb it, don't. end of question. however that doesn't mean don't try, just don't mess it up for the rest of us.


Partner coldclimb


Aug 9, 2003, 8:29 PM
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no.
no.
no.


bouldrinsoill


Aug 9, 2003, 8:47 PM
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1.fu*k no
2.fu*k no
3.fu*k no


climbingcowboy


Aug 9, 2003, 9:11 PM
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1. no

2. no

3. I wouldnt do it but dont really care if someone else does.


oklahoma_climber


Aug 9, 2003, 9:35 PM
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no.
no.
no.
but if you own the land..... still NO.

Climb what God gave you to climb... and if that's too tough, get better.

As for the ownership scenario: just because a piece of paper says you own the land doesn't give you the right to skimp on the integrity of the sport. Corked bats; Juiced Fullbacks; Spitball pitchers; Chipping climbers. They all belong in a small, ironclad cell at the bottom of the North Atlantic.

Oh, and while you're at it... pack out your trash. I'm not your mother, and I'm tired of cleaning up your mess.


janiszewski11


Aug 9, 2003, 9:39 PM
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no
no
no


old_school


Aug 9, 2003, 9:42 PM
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no no and no

leave the rock be, chip and die


rockfax


Aug 9, 2003, 9:47 PM
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In reply to:
The goal of this unscientific poll is to gauge the community's views on, and acceptance of, chipping.

I've got another three questions for your pathetic poll.

Is asking these questions:

1. Pathetic

2. Absolutely Pathetic

or

3. The questioner should be burned at the stake for being superbly pathetic.

Creating holds to climb rock is pathetic period.

And I should know because I'm pathetic.

Mick
www.rockfax.com


phugganut


Aug 9, 2003, 10:52 PM
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1)no
2)no
3)no
Also, for all future "is it ok to chip if" questions, the answer is no.


shnobe


Aug 9, 2003, 11:11 PM
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1....NO
2....NO
3.....NO

Chipping should never be allowed or accepted...


kalcario


Aug 9, 2003, 11:15 PM
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The definitive and realistic answer to this set of questions is: It depends on the area.

If you are talking about pristine granite in an alpine setting or a National Park, the answer is no to all 3. By rights the definition of chipping should be broad enough to include piton bashing (which some of us find even more offensive than chipping), and someday I'm sure it will, but...one step at a time.

If the cliff is a pile of choss, then anything goes, and if you don't like it then don't go there.

And if your idea of interjecting yourself into the controversy only goes as far as typing, then don't bother.


enigma


Aug 10, 2003, 12:52 AM
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--This thread seems to be directed at someone or a few individuals in particular, is that true?? :shock:
? Maybe it shouldn't be so enigmatic. Hmmn :roll:


peas


Aug 10, 2003, 1:06 AM
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No


vertical_planar


Aug 10, 2003, 1:25 AM
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NO
NO
NO


halcyon


Aug 10, 2003, 2:20 AM
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NO

NO

NO

If you have to chip the climb to climb it, climb something else.


dingus


Aug 10, 2003, 8:11 AM
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In reply to:
Post your responses to the three questions with either a YES (chipping is acceptable), NO (not acceptable), or NO OPINION (i.e. ambilvilence or don't care). No justifications please... this is a poll, not a discussion.

hehe. Once you hit the send button you no longer can control the discussion, unless you're a power hungry moderator that is...

In reply to:
Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?

Is anyone watching when said developer is presented with the temptation to carve holds out of blank stone?

In reply to:
2) If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?

Is the route developer a member of some minority community?

In reply to:
3)Any possible route on this wall would have to be nearly 100%, completely manufactured: chipping, drilled pockets, chisseling, etc. Since this route could never be climbed anyway, is it acceptable to chip in this case?

Is the route developer named Tony Yaniro by any chance?

Look, the opinion of faceless dweebs on the internet, me included, is rather irrelevant and certainly lacks context. The only opinion that truly matters is the person doing the chipping. You can have one hundred zealots preaching the ills of chipping negated by the chisel of one. When you present black and white scenarios you reveal nothing of consequence. It's only on the margins of people's ethics that you will find interesting controversy. So I am going to modify your poll.

1.) You have bolted a hard sandstone sport route and repeatedly tried to red point it. You can't do it. It's just too hard. Each time you get to the crux you reach up to a distant and poor hand hold and brush at it vigorously with your hardened fingertips and nails. And each time you do this grains of sand are seperated from the rock matrix and swept away. After 30 or 40 such episodes over the course of a couple of days spent hanging from the nearest bolt, working the move, gradually, the hold is enlarged and you eventually send the route. Is this blatant form of chipping acceptable to you? Will you tell the area guidebook author and everyone else who is tempted to try your climb how you modified this hold? Are you proudb of your work?

2.) You have a 5.10 climb with a 5.12+ move halfway up. You can't even talk your belayers into holding your rope anymore, so hopeless are your chances of dragging your fat arse up the route free (I have one of these by the way). Another friend, an antisocial SOB who cares next to nothing of the opinion of others, offers to fix the route at some undefined point in the future. She won't tell you what she intends to do, nor when; just that she will "take care of things." Do you consent or warn her off?

3.) You have a hairline dirtfilled crack splitting a 95 degree wall. So compelling is the line that over the years, going clear back to the 60's, notable climbers have stopped their cars and climbed the hill to have a look. In each and every case they retreated. The 80 foot line would require extensive excavation and hard iron slamming to even be aided, much less freed. Since this thing is right on the road to one of the great aid climbing meccas of the free world, people have let it go. But where others see a waste of time you see a future cutting edge free climb. Yet even you are a bit put off by the tactics you envision necessary...

you will have to first rap the thing and using the pick of an ice axe laborously dig out every shred of vegation and dirt you can. After the cleaning you know at least 30 feet of hairline crack still seperate you from your future magazine cover route. So you recruit your aid climbing friend to nail it and you ask him to nail it hard. You clean it and really work those pins in getting them out. The results of these efforts is clear... pockets emerging from the seam, every four feet. Still, at least 5 of these holds are too small to admit even the tip of your pinky. So you nail it 3 more times until the holds will admit your digits. When top roping this new line you realize there are absolutely no opportunities for really good pro anywhere on the route, so you elect to rap bolt the crack as well, rather than aid it 10 more times to produce suitable nut placements. Eventually you send this new line, proudly clipping your shiny 3/8 inch bolts up the thing as your photog friend snaps away. Do you decribe to Blight & Farce, in detail, the methods you used to create this climb? Could you look your momma in the eye and defend your actions to be in keeping with the proud traditions of the sport?

Lastly, have any of you route developers ever been tempted to carve or modify obviously solid holds in order to make a climb go? If so, did you carve? If yes, what route, where and when? And please post your real name too. If the tactics are acceptable you should have no problem providing real world proof of your actions and be willing to stand behind them. It is my guess that no chipping advocate will do this... and that is the only indictment necessary. If you can't stand up to the light of day, then it is darkness you are pursuing.

DMT


cthcrockclimber


Aug 10, 2003, 8:27 AM
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No
No
No


silkyerm


Aug 10, 2003, 8:35 AM
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No
No
No
If you want to chip something, chip an old concrete train tressel.


flying_dutchman


Aug 10, 2003, 9:57 AM
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i thought we were clear with the chipping issue...

no to the above unless the rock is in your backyard.

Why not just aid the route over and over till its climbable? That seems to be acceptable on big walls.


karma274


Aug 10, 2003, 10:57 AM
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In reply to:
1.) You have bolted a hard sandstone sport route and repeatedly tried to red point it. You can't do it. It's just too hard. Each time you get to the crux you reach up to a distant and poor hand hold and brush at it vigorously with your hardened fingertips and nails. And each time you do this grains of sand are seperated from the rock matrix and swept away. After 30 or 40 such episodes over the course of a couple of days spent hanging from the nearest bolt, working the move, gradually, the hold is enlarged and you eventually send the route. Is this blatant form of chipping acceptable to you? Will you tell the area guidebook author and everyone else who is tempted to try your climb how you modified this hold? Are you proudb of your work?
DMT

While this is kind of shady business, this same thing would have happened after others had tried it many times. It's sort of like prying a scary ass loose block off before someone weights it and kills someone. if it's 90% probable that something would have come off after many attempts or if someone weighted it, my opinion is that you aren't hurting anything.


saltamonte


Sep 26, 2005, 9:36 AM
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In reply to:
Not acceptable in any of the above cases.

Mike Coles
'bluelip'

In reply to:
No
No
No
If you want to chip something, chip an old concrete train tressel.

what is it with peoples percieved need to protect a Rock from being hit with a hammer especially when we are talking about some obscure rock that will otherwise never be climbed.

I fully agree that there are times when chipping is inappropriate. but to say it should never be done by anyone is about as logical as an athiest deciding to live like the amish and then trying to make the whole world convert to his lifestyle because it is what he likes. If he wants to live with out using technology fine let him do it. but he has no place telling others they shouldn't use a zipper on their pants (especially since as an athiest and has no belief that a higher power is mandating his lifestyle) So if you don't want to chip a rock to make a brand new route climbable don't do it, and if you don't want others chipping at your existing routes we are behind you. but don't act like anyone else should be equally bound to never chip a rock because of your personal preference

I love rocks but they do not feel pain and do not care if you chip them in fact over time they will be chipped by nature itself if you don't do it. IF you maintain that chipping a rock is always wrong you should stop driving on public roads gravel or paved both are made with chipped rock.


ironically this sort of behavior is the very behavior that when applied to other situations most of the users on this site detest. For example.

this is anal retentative anti chipping rc.com user "i would never chip a rock so neither should you" and we are supposed to agree with him

But when local stuck up guy at gas station sees Anal Retentive rc.com user's tattoos and purple hair.

and stuck up local guy says "I would never paint my hair purple that is ugly and distracting from the beauty of the human race so neither should you"
or
" i would never get a tattoo if it didn't get their naturally like a birthmark or accidently like scar then I won't put it on my body so neither should you."

or
"I would never cuss it is unpleasant to have no choice but to hear that profanity as I walk through the grocery store or sit at the coffee shop. so neither should you"

most of these anti-chipping activists would say who does he think he is I will do as I *@#! please.

but when it comes to hitting a rock with a hammer they can handle letting everyone make their own choices


lofstromc


Sep 26, 2005, 9:59 AM
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To question 1: instead of making the holds bigger by chipping, make your hands smaller by chipping.

Question 2: Use some glue-up holds, those are always very aesthetically pleasing.

Question 3: I asked the bats in said cave and they all agreed. NO!

Leave the rock alone. :evil:


overlord


Sep 26, 2005, 10:05 AM
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a)no

b)no

c)if you dont own the cave, no. its ok if you want to make yourself a nice little outdoor gym on your land.

im against deliberately altering the rock to make free moves easier/possible. if you cant climb it, open the project and let others try it.


kyote321


Sep 26, 2005, 10:11 AM
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comfortizing is the question that should be asked. although i don't really care if rock gets chipped or not, most people do. comfortizing IS the topic that should be discussed


jelliott


Sep 26, 2005, 10:20 AM
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Hell NO to all three and for god's sake leave the bats alone


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 10:30 AM
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This is called French Aiding... AND FUCK THE FRENCH! :deadhorse:


rockgoat


Sep 26, 2005, 10:36 AM
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No!

No!

No!


billcoe_


Sep 26, 2005, 11:03 AM
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In reply to:
no - no - no - no - no Hope that caught them all.

NO.
..................

Now on to the Arnold for gov poll.....

Still No No No and No with an extra no in there for good measure. If you own it, thats another subject.

Nice thread revival saltamonte. Still No.

How about that Arnold now? He got elected. Can we have another poll on his re-election?


scotchie


Sep 26, 2005, 12:09 PM
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NO, NO, and NO !!!!

If you own the land then it's your legal right, BUT IT'S STILL LAME !!!

That said, I wouldn't refuse to climb a route just because someone chipped it. Once the damage is done, and it's too late to recover, then I might as well enjoy what's left of the climb. But it's not like climbing a real 5.whatever.

Oh yeah, and I vote "The questioner should be burned at the stake for being superbly pathetic". :D


moose_droppings


Sep 26, 2005, 12:25 PM
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1st 3 original questions:
1. no
2. no
3. no

Modified questions:
1. A. no
B. yes
C. no
2. warn her
3. A. yes
B. no
Lastly. no fucking way


quietmonk


Sep 26, 2005, 1:08 PM
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Not every rock needs to get climbed
1) too selfish/stupid to chip down

2) depends. I would drill the shit out of it

3) Setting plastic climbs would be a better option (as in most cases of manufacturing) In a choss-filled cave I would approve of this, but never waste my time doing it.

I have actually climbed in a "secret" choss cave at Smith where all of the routes are based off of holds that are blatantly drilled, glued or bolted on. Some of ther routes even used commercial plastic holds.


fluxus


Sep 26, 2005, 1:42 PM
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Its great to say that chippinng should not be done. But do you all realize how many of the routes you climb are chipped? How many classics routes out there are man made wonders? What do you do when you discover that the most famous route in your area has a number of chipped holds on it?

American fork Ut, Maple canyon Ut, Mt Charleston NV, Clark Mnt. Ca, Mount Williamson Ca, Stoney Point Ca, Kingston Quarry NY, Hemlock Ledges (gunks) ny, Red Rock NV, Riverside Quarry CA, Logan Ut. Wild Iris Wy, Sinks Canyon Wy, Echo Ca, almost any old trad crack route, and just about every limestone crag between Vegas and SLC among others all have routes created by chipping, gluing, "selective cleaning" etc.

Chipping in all its different manifestations has played a significant role in American climbing for a long time, This does not make it right, but I imagine that many people who posted an indignant "no!" to the pole question have on more than one ocassion used chipped holds and enjoyed the experience without knowing that the holds were chipped.

I don't think that chipping should be accepted but at the same time there are a few rare individual out there who have chipped great routes. Unfortunately there are far more people who have ruined what other wise would have been good routes with their chipping.


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 1:46 PM
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chipping [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Unfortunately there are far more people who have ruined what other wise would have been good routes with their chipping.
Damn frogs! :evil:


fenderfour


Sep 26, 2005, 1:48 PM
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Not everything has to be climbed. Learn to accept defeat


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 2:57 PM
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In reply to:
Learn to accept defeat
The French, they practice this! :lol:


skinkididoo


Sep 26, 2005, 3:18 PM
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No to all three original questions

If you can't climb something, try something easier. If you want to make a route where there obviously isn't one, be a routesetter in a gym. There are so many awesome places to climb that it really seems silly for people to go out and chip something to make it a climb. Its not like that aesthetically perfect yet holdless arete is the only aesthetically beautiful arete in the world... have a sense of adventure and go somewhere else...


kyote321


Sep 26, 2005, 3:25 PM
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dude, get off the french. have you been to france? or are you a victim of pro-america, 'freedom fries' propaganda? i have a lot of respect for the french for standing up to the tyrannical US under bush. they have a self-sustaining , progressive culture that values food, culture, and qulait over over-consumption and greed.

for our sport, they were instrumental in moving it out of the dark ages of the 60s-80s. say what you want, but no one is climbing 15a on gear, and many are able to enjoy the sport safely because of their hang-dogging and rap-bolting. if you want to involve yourself in an ethical debate, how about why is our federal land being sold out to oil and timber interests?

yes, many routes in the west have the odd hold manufacured to keep with the vibe of the climb. many more have had holds improves OR made less good to keep the climb at a consistent grade. they happen to be some of the best, and most repeated, climbs. props to the route setters.

you can get on your high horse all you wnat, but unless you solely climb trad, you are climbing a route that someone has manipulated in some way, and thus are encouraging the activity.


Partner gunksgoer


Sep 26, 2005, 3:46 PM
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In reply to:
you can get on your high horse all you wnat, but unless you solely climb trad, you are climbing a route that someone has manipulated in some way.

Wow. Im sure lots of people would like to think this. Trad routes are probably the most manipulated ones out there. Decades of pitons have taken their toll, sometimes to the extent that the whole nature of the route has been changed. Holds and gear placements are also chipped on some routes. Consider this route:

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/...6/images/hanging.jpg

It was chipped. Of course it looks pretty sweet and id love to climb it (assuming ill ever be able to) but due to the bolt ban at the gunks nut placements were chipped. The seam leading out the roof was also enlarged slightly in some places. This is not an extreme example either. Piton scars dot many climbs and in some places provide nice hand holds or pro options that otherwise wouldnt exist.


kyote321


Sep 26, 2005, 3:54 PM
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yeah, good point. i haven't been tradding in a major area for a while, so i forget this.


mcgivney_nh


Sep 26, 2005, 3:56 PM
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1 NO
2 YES
3 NO OPINION


moose_droppings


Sep 26, 2005, 3:56 PM
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In reply to:
This does not make it right, but I imagine that many people who posted an indignant "no!" to the pole question have on more than one ocassion used chipped holds and enjoyed the experience without knowing that the holds were chipped.

Using one and making one are two totaly different things


fluxus


Sep 26, 2005, 4:00 PM
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In reply to:
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/...6/images/hanging.jpg

It was chipped. Of course it looks pretty sweet and id love to climb it (assuming ill ever be able to) but due to the bolt ban at the gunks nut placements were chipped. The seam leading out the roof was also enlarged slightly in some places. This is not an extreme example either. Piton scars dot many climbs and in some places provide nice hand holds or pro options that otherwise wouldnt exist.

great point, the fact that people started to chip nut placements on trad routes in the 1980's (maybe even earlier) is one of those often overlooked facts, that also happened at Smith. and a few other areas.

considering the direction the thread is going I can't help but mention that the name of the route above is "the French Connection" :-)

Personally I would love to say that they French are better at chipping then we are but then I just remembered getting on" Hello la Terre" in the Verdon. The first hold was a square chunk just glued onto the wall. So it gets a D- for aesthetics but an A- for route quality.


climber15


Sep 26, 2005, 4:16 PM
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I think that before anybody starts saying that chipping is absolutly not acceptable, you must first consider that many classic climbes throughout the world have minor or sometimes even major "modifications" that many people dont even know about. If you have ever climbed in Rifle, Shelf, Boulder Canyon, Elevenmile Canyon, Smith Rocks, Mt. Charlston, Mt. Potasi, or any "classic" trad climb that was once and aid route, chances are you have climbed on a chipped route without even knowing it. While i dont support modification to take a climb that has asthetic value and drilling it down (how many beautiful cracks in the garden of the gods were beaten into submission by pin scars, and now have become hidiously ugly?), but i do support a few enhanced holds during blank sections to make a classic climb. New routing is like art, if you make sure the chipped holds are completly hidden and contribute to the flow, then enhance them. I will almost gaurantee that no one will be able to tell the difference.

Had it not been for the french ethics (sport climbing, rap bolting, ect.) i gaurantee we would not have nealry as many people climbing and ENJOYING the sport as we do now.

Mabe we should quite complaining and just climb. eh?


mcfoley


Sep 26, 2005, 4:17 PM
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NO, NO, NO...


Partner gunksgoer


Sep 26, 2005, 4:33 PM
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In reply to:
considering the direction the thread is going I can't help but mention that the name of the route above is "the French Connection"

:lol:

Its also known as "jackhammered". Pretty much sums it up.


kyote321


Sep 26, 2005, 4:49 PM
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'Using one and making one are two totaly different things '

why?


stabla


Sep 26, 2005, 4:54 PM
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Chipping is NEVER acceptable
NEVER!


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:09 PM
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:idea: ...French Aiding... :idea:

http://www.umassd.edu/...etch1-jackhammer.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:09 PM
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http://www.coloradonma.org/...ammer-compressor.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:12 PM
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http://www.kentworld.com/canada/jackhammer.gif


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:15 PM
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A typical home climbing wall... IN FRANCE!

http://www.great-river.com/pix/jackhammer.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:18 PM
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Route setting...

http://www.nma.gov.au/...ackhammer%203-27.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:21 PM
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Gear rack...

http://www.miconproducts.com/...khammer_steel_03.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:23 PM
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trad gear...

http://www.cobhonline.com/...lhire/jackhammer.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:26 PM
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French 'Retro-Betty'

http://www.great-river.com/pix/retro-betty.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:31 PM
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Traversing~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>

http://www.aaps.k12.mi.us/...iles/jackhammer4.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:32 PM
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climbing comp............................ IN FRANCE :wink:

http://www.ecommcode.com/...m/const/full/090.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:35 PM
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Preparing for a V4, while the spotter watches...

http://www.uswaterproofing.com/images/pic1pg3.jpg


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 5:40 PM
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Poseur celebrating a redpoint! :lol: :lol: :lol: 8^)

http://www.foamprops.com/...llsize/jackhamlg.jpg


petsfed


Sep 26, 2005, 5:43 PM
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1) No
2) Yes
3) No answer


healyje


Sep 26, 2005, 5:45 PM
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In reply to:
Had it not been for the french ethics (sport climbing, rap bolting, ect.) i gaurantee we would not have nealry as many people climbing and ENJOYING the sport as we do now.

Normally I don't going in for transatlantic trashfests but this is a perfect reason to diss the French as far as I'm concerned. It's not as if we weren't thoroughly enjoying climbing before the suburban hordes were marketed it as the latest hip thing in pop culture.

[Damn you David Lee Roth... :wink: ]


kyote321


Sep 26, 2005, 5:52 PM
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you might be a redneck if...

you trash cultures you know nothing about.


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 6:00 PM
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RIFLE FOR SALE: never fired, dropped once! :tinfoilhat:


samroberts


Sep 26, 2005, 6:10 PM
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1) A route developer whose redpoint limit is 12plus/13minus spots a

no

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable

no

3) A beautiful, severly overhanging shield of completely blank stone is located in a cave. The cave is of no interest to anyone except bats and

no fucking way, leave it to the bats and the hikers, drill your gym


Partner tgreene


Sep 26, 2005, 6:14 PM
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To Whom It May Concern: It's actually illegal as hell to desecrate a natural cave!


shazinky


Sep 26, 2005, 6:38 PM
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DUMP

DUMP

SMASH


potreroed


Sep 26, 2005, 7:01 PM
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NAY, NAY AND NAY.


t-dog
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Sep 26, 2005, 7:34 PM
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In reply to:
you might be a redneck if...

you trash cultures you know nothing about.

hahah, that describes tgreene so well!!!

btw, greenie, did a bunch of lycra-wearing french sport climbers steal your lunch money when you were a kid or something? Get a freakin' clue.

But thanks for keeping the American fvcktard stereotype alive and well!!


gunked


Sep 26, 2005, 7:44 PM
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NO

NO

NO

-Jason


Partner tgreene


Sep 27, 2005, 6:21 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
you might be a redneck if...

you trash cultures you know nothing about.

hahah, that describes tgreene so well!!!

btw, greenie, did a bunch of lycra-wearing french sport climbers steal your lunch money when you were a kid or something? Get a freakin' clue.

But thanks for keeping the American fvcktard stereotype alive and well!!
I find it to be rather humerous that you guys slam me for stereotyping, with the ever typical and much overplayed "redneck" stereotype that you're so quick to paint me with......... :mrgreen:


kyote321


Sep 27, 2005, 7:52 AM
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you know, if the confederate flag fits...

but, really, i do appreciate anyone who can be so blatantly un PC in a PC world.


killclimbz


Sep 27, 2005, 7:56 AM
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Way to revive a thread from 2003. :deadhorse:


getsomeethics


Sep 27, 2005, 8:16 AM
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1. no
2. no
3. no


billcoe_


Sep 27, 2005, 8:26 AM
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In reply to:
I find it to be rather humerous that you guys slam me for stereotyping, with the ever typical and much overplayed "redneck" stereotype that you're so quick to paint me with......... :mrgreen:

No way Tgreene, I was laughing my ass off too hard over here. I've been to France couple times last couple of years, they are fine folks. Obviously those who are giving you crap have their funny switch turned off.

OMG! That stuff is soooooooo funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That "POSER celebrating a redpoint" pic sent me right over the edge.


:lol: :lol:


obe


Sep 27, 2005, 9:16 AM
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MY TURN!...

1. NO

2. NO

3. NO



......NEXT :arrow:


brad84


Sep 27, 2005, 9:25 AM
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no
no
no


jh_angel


Sep 27, 2005, 9:43 AM
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no, no and no.
why do you think there are artificial walls?


Partner tgreene


Sep 27, 2005, 7:09 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I find it to be rather humerous that you guys slam me for stereotyping, with the ever typical and much overplayed "redneck" stereotype that you're so quick to paint me with......... :mrgreen:

No way Tgreene, I was laughing my ass off too hard over here. I've been to France couple times last couple of years, they are fine folks. Obviously those who are giving you crap have their funny switch turned off.

OMG! That stuff is soooooooo funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That "POSER celebrating a redpoint" pic sent me right over the edge.


:lol: :lol:
See, it's called HUMOR! 8^)


memory_hole


Sep 27, 2005, 7:21 PM
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In reply to:
See, it's called HUMOR! 8^)
Keep yer day job.


Partner tgreene


Sep 27, 2005, 7:26 PM
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What day job..? :mrgreen:


retrock


Sep 27, 2005, 8:08 PM
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NO
NO
NO

God it's like I'm yelling at my kids.


kyote321


Sep 27, 2005, 10:37 PM
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making fun of others funny long time (insert pithy emotocon here). we learn this on playground. declarative sentences are fun.


dood


Sep 27, 2005, 11:16 PM
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When is roughster going to chime in here?


worldsworstclimber


Oct 3, 2005, 12:45 PM
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No to all 3. Chipping is irresponsible. Great route developers everywhere would be ashamed. Bolted routes are fun and convenient, but route developers must be very careful, they could violate the trust of other climbers, other recreational land users and the trust of land owners. Traditional lead climbing is right on with the leave no trace ethic that will be essential to preserving climbing access in the US.

Dinosaurs forever !!!


stryker


Oct 3, 2005, 1:56 PM
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No - get stronger
No - get stronger
No - get a life and climb a real rock


kyote321


Oct 3, 2005, 2:01 PM
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'Traditional lead climbing is right on with the leave no trace ethic that will be essential to preserving climbing access in the US. '

you've got to be joking. trad climbers leave lots of stuff: slings, gear, pin scars, skin, blood, trails. they are at least as much of an impact as sport climb'n.


rmcclmbr


Oct 3, 2005, 2:04 PM
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1. NO
2. NO. Even though I can see someones point with this option, I think the rock should be kept in it's natural state. There are plenty of other routes you can climb.
3. NO


Partner xtrmecat


Oct 3, 2005, 3:51 PM
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No, No, and finally No! What are you thinking?


shanz


Oct 3, 2005, 4:14 PM
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No
No
No


korntera


Oct 3, 2005, 4:26 PM
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#1 no
#2 make a bolt ladder, not holds or make the route stop before the blank section. I have been on 30 foot routes on a 100 foot wall because of a blank section.
#3 If you own the property go ahead, any other reason, hell no!


roughster


Oct 3, 2005, 4:47 PM
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In reply to:
When is roughster going to chime in here?

You want to know what I think about this?

B~I = f [w1] with the heaviest influence and weighting set on SN. (SN = Subjective Norm)

Visually speaking:

http://www.ciadvertising.org/...ioner/belding/af.gif

Climbers as a whole are much too concerned about 12-3 o'clock positons in my opinion. So much so that you could apply a pre-teen / teenage Peer Pressure model to the climbing community to more accurately predict the "typical" response from the majority of climbers.

In layman's terms? Climbers are more concerned about fiting in with other climbers rather than be willing to understand and come up with their own stance. The SN or subjective norm (you can also think of it as social norm) is not just a factor, it is in fact a filter for original thought since you will self sensor your own ideas based upon the input from the right quadrant of the diagram.

The irony of all this is climbers have a tradition of being social outcasts who think outside of the day to day social norms, but now we have built our own social model that exactly parallels mainstream society and more specifically pre-teen / teen Peer Pressure models. :lol:

As for chipping? Don't care. I am paddling these days more than climbing. Who would have guessed that a shoulder injury could be a blessing in disguise!


1080climber


Oct 3, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Once upon a time in a land far far away......
there was a climb that one young man thought could not be done, it was hard and also in a chossy crap crag where use of glue to keep holds on was everywhere. So was the case with this climb, but he made holds out of glue, no chipping, but creating. Of course people were angry and sad but as time went on they came to love this climb as it was a classic.
But then one summer while everybody was gone climbing in better places two well known climbers smashed every fake manufactured hold off the route, and then climbed it to prove it could be done. But they made everybody mad again, by doing what they thought was right and good they destroyed a classic.
Is this as bad as chipping?
Where they right or wrong? and did they have the right to decide?


chalkfree


Oct 3, 2005, 5:24 PM
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In answer to the questions

NO
NO
NO

Someone will get up it someday, be it on aid with suction cups, whatever. Leave it be till then.


fluxus


Oct 3, 2005, 7:02 PM
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thank you roughster if I had a trophy to give it would be yours.

I think the poll does serve a purpose, it shows that most of the respondents have a limited understanding of what is going on at their crags and limited context in which to understand the questions.

Here are other questions for you:

1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

5) if climber 'A' manufactures a route or two on a totally blank and featurless abandon quarry in upstate NY, and on another day climbing at a natural area in PA, comes across a natural route with a chipped hold and proceeds to easily do the routes without the chipped hold and is critical of the chipper who chipped a natural route for no reason at all beyond their lack of vision. How evil is climber 'A'?

6) A climber at Red Rocks wishes the grades there were not so soft. After a winter rainstorm he goes and gets on a few routes in the gallery before they dry off and accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?


billcoe_


Oct 4, 2005, 8:02 AM
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In reply to:
thank you roughster if I had a trophy to give it would be yours.

I think the poll does serve a purpose, it shows that most of the respondents have a limited understanding of what is going on at their crags and limited context in which to understand the questions.

Here are other questions for you:

1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

5) if climber 'A' manufactures a route or two on a totally blank and featurless abandon quarry in upstate NY, and on another day climbing at a natural area in PA, comes across a natural route with a chipped hold and proceeds to easily do the routes without the chipped hold and is critical of the chipper who chipped a natural route for no reason at all beyond their lack of vision. How evil is climber 'A'?

6) A climber at Red Rocks wishes the grades there were not so soft. After a winter rainstorm he goes and gets on a few routes in the gallery before they dry off and accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?

Too many questions.

Use your judgement. I'm sure Jeffery Dahmaer had some real positive things about him too, but would ya let him babysit your kids?


silkyerm


Oct 4, 2005, 8:14 AM
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NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
:!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


jt512


Oct 4, 2005, 8:56 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
When is roughster going to chime in here?

You want to know what I think about this?

B~I = f [w1] with the heaviest influence and weighting set on SN. (SN = Subjective Norm)

Visually speaking:

http://www.ciadvertising.org/...ioner/belding/af.gif

Climbers as a whole are much too concerned about 12-3 o'clock positons in my opinion. So much so that you could apply a pre-teen / teenage Peer Pressure model to the climbing community to more accurately predict the "typical" response from the majority of climbers.

In layman's terms? Climbers are more concerned about fiting in with other climbers rather than be willing to understand and come up with their own stance. The SN or subjective norm (you can also think of it as social norm) is not just a factor, it is in fact a filter for original thought since you will self sensor your own ideas based upon the input from the right quadrant of the diagram.

The irony of all this is climbers have a tradition of being social outcasts who think outside of the day to day social norms, but now we have built our own social model that exactly parallels mainstream society and more specifically pre-teen / teen Peer Pressure models. :lol:

As for chipping? Don't care. I am paddling these days more than climbing. Who would have guessed that a shoulder injury could be a blessing in disguise!

Trophy, minus one style point for the phrase "visually speaking."

-Jay


dingus


Oct 4, 2005, 9:01 AM
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In reply to:
1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends upon what is being cleaned and how. A lot of aggressive rock manipulation has gone down under the guise of 'cleaning.'

In reply to:
2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

Acceptable to whom? To me? It depends.

In reply to:
3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

Of course its chipping! Its just viewed as necessary chipping where it happens frequently, like on limestone. No hold modification, no climb, or so I've been told. That's chipping, 101.

In reply to:
4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

Yes, and its chipping when new school climbers do it too.

In reply to:
5) How evil is climber 'A'?

As evil as she wants to be?

In reply to:
6) accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

Not really.

In reply to:
7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?

That person needs to be bitch slapped. Hard.

DMT


jt512


Oct 4, 2005, 9:11 AM
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As usual, It Depends, but forced between answering "yes" or "no," here goes:

1. Marginally "No" because of the italicized phrase in the question, "Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? Had the phrase instead been to produce a sustained 5.12 route I would have been more inclined to vote "Yes."

2. Yes

3. Yes

Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

-Jay


fluxus


Oct 4, 2005, 1:21 PM
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In reply to:
Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

Exactly.

I don't know how many other people contributing to this thread have bolted, cleaned, put up routes, but I've done it in the Gunks, At Lion's Head, at the NRG, at AF, and at Maple among others. In an area such as Maple, over 90% of the routes are manufactured. Its rare to come across a drilled pocket or something like that but the person putting up the route has to make descisions about what stays and what goes. At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be. This is also the case for routes in many SoCal climbing areas such as NJC, some part of Williamson, and all of Echo.

So, for all of you who are dead set against chipping, are you either: 1)choosing to ignore all the manipulation that goes into cleaning a route, in which the cleaner decides what the route will be or
2) do you think that an internationally renound area such as the box canyon should not have been developed? or
3) are you dishonest enough to say that cleaning and chipping are not the same thing?


jt512


Oct 4, 2005, 1:33 PM
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In reply to:
Its rare to come across a drilled pocket or something like that but the person putting up the route has to make descisions about what stays and what goes. At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.

This is the most clearly I have ever seen this stated.

-Jay


mbg


Oct 4, 2005, 2:37 PM
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These threads always boil down to a debate on the murky line that separates chipping from cleaning and/or making a route safe.

People relatively new to the game show their ignorance on route development and veterans often show their indifferent attitude towards huffing fumes in the great outdoors and unwarranted enhancement.


jbak


Oct 4, 2005, 3:30 PM
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In reply to:

I don't know how many other people contributing to this thread have bolted, cleaned, put up routes,

At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.

Totally agree. I think people who have never done FAs imagine that overhanging routes in chossy areas somehow spring into being perfectly clean and ready to go. They have no idea how much cleaning and how much thought goes into developing such routes. Decisions ARE made.


hasbeen


Oct 10, 2005, 2:50 PM
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In reply to:
Totally agree. I think people who have never done FAs imagine that overhanging routes in chossy areas somehow spring into being perfectly clean and ready to go. They have no idea how much cleaning and how much thought goes into developing such routes. Decisions ARE made.

having established hundred's of routes in various styles in various countries with various climbers of varying notoriety, most of you folks have absolutely no idea about what goes on during an FA. aid, trad, sport, whatever. i could tell you stories, some which would completely destroy that mag-induced ivory clean image of your heroes that you currently hold.

what i've never understood was why it's spun that way it is. i mean, i get it when we're talking to lay folks, especially land use managment who probably don't understand the sport. but when we artificially create this rift within our community that often leads to access problems (like in josh) when most of the people doing all the squawking have no clue as to the process they're discussing there can't be any upside.

so i'll leave you with a funny story, instead of fueling the fire over which famous persons should be slandered.

there was this guy who used to occasionally climb with our group. he wasn't too talented, which we don't care at all about. but to cover his ineptetude, he would carry around an old interview of a well known climber and use the "pure" ethics of the piece as why he had to back off every lead, never try a hard move or do anything remotely scary. it was pretty funny because he was even misinterpreting the article as an excuse to never push himself under a "real climbers don't fall" sort of image. he was so taking by this philosophy that he used to carry the piece around with him, flashing it regularly to people trying to help him climb better.

but a bomb was dropped on him when an editor of that mag joined our group, explaining to him that that article's author slanted the piece so much that the subject refused further interviews from the mag and that his hero didn't agree with that approach to climbing at all. the really weird thing was that instead of being crushed, he continued to carry the piece around with him and espouse this--now false--philosophy.


billcoe_


Oct 10, 2005, 4:58 PM
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2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?


So JT, I'm not usre I understand: according to you, since the above is OK (your second Yes), then we can surmise that if the route is 5.5, but the route has a short 5.7 section, it's ok to hammer, power drill and chip to make the whole route 5.5?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Bill


jt512


Oct 10, 2005, 5:42 PM
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In reply to:



2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?


So JT, I'm not usre I understand: according to you, since the above is OK (your second Yes), then we can surmise that if the route is 5.5, but the route has a short 5.7 section, it's ok to hammer, power drill and chip to make the whole route 5.5?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Bill

I don't know whether it would be eithical or not. It would certainly be pointless. Your analogy is invalid.

-Jay


billcoe_


Oct 10, 2005, 9:03 PM
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As usual, It Depends, but forced between answering "yes" or "no," here goes:

1. Marginally "No" because of the italicized phrase in the question, "Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? Had the phrase instead been to produce a sustained 5.12 route I would have been more inclined to vote "Yes."

2. Yes

3. Yes

Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

-Jay

According to the OP:
In reply to:
Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comforting holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.


.................

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?

Hmmm: it's a yes if the route is being chipped down to a 5.10 according to you? But a 5.5 leader chipping it down from a 5.7 is an invalid analogy? I don't think so, apples to apples JT. It could read thusly - picture this, same paragraph with the ratings changed:

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.5 climbing has one very-short harder section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable by our aspiring 5.5 leader, but it is minimally a V1 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in this pussy chipped up route anyway. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.5. Is chipping acceptable in this case?


Looks the same to me, and that you are saying it's fine to chip as long s the route is harder, like 5.10, but not 5.7. Just clarifying.

Bill


fracture


Oct 11, 2005, 8:02 AM
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But a 5.5 leader chipping it down from a 5.7 is an invalid analogy? I don't think so, apples to apples JT. It could read thusly - picture this, same paragraph with the ratings changed:

The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.

Certainly not "apples to apples". But nice attempt to confuse the issue.

In reply to:
... but it is minimally a V1 crux.

Do you really think V1 is 5.7? Have you ever climbed a V1?


billcoe_


Oct 11, 2005, 9:23 AM
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The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.

Certainly not "apples to apples". But nice attempt to confuse the issue.

In reply to:
Do you really think V1 is 5.7? Have you ever climbed a V1?

Yup.

So then you are saying that it's OK to drill extra pockets for 5.10, but not 5.7 because more people can do 5.7 than 5.10 and/or that the spread between 5.5 and 5.7 is a lot less than V11-5.10?

So fracture - my example should have entailed what? It's an 11A but our climber wants to make the route 5.9 so the holes get drilled? Or perhaps the rest of the route is 5.2, but there is a short section of wicked 5.10 which our aspiring leader knows he cannot do on his best day, so is it then OK for him (since for JT and yourself it seems plenty OK to drill to reduce it from V11 to 5.10) to drill huge pockets to make it a full 80' pitch of 5.2 so that he can do it.

??

Bill


fluxus


Oct 11, 2005, 9:50 AM
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So then you are saying that it's OK to drill extra pockets for 5.10, but not 5.7 because more people can do 5.7 than 5.10

The example under discussion is rather strange for two reasons: 1) I've never seen anyone who was a "5.5 climber" (if there is such a thing) going for a first ascent. and 2) I've never met anyone who couldn't climb 5.7 moves on their first day of climbing.

If you want to introduce the idea that climbers who are ok with chipping are biased toward harder grades you may have a point but this is a poor way of getting there.


jt512


Oct 11, 2005, 10:03 AM
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So then you are saying that it's OK to drill extra pockets for 5.10, but not 5.7 because more people can do 5.7 than 5.10 and/or that the spread between 5.5 and 5.7 is a lot less than V11-5.10?

Fracture spelled out precisely what I hoped you would figure out for yourself:
In reply to:
The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.

Basically, anyone who can climb 5.5 can climb 5.7, so it is pointless to alter a 5.7 route to make it "consistent 5.5" (whatever that means).

On the other hand, the distance between 5.10 and V11 is enormous. I'd estimate that 50% of active climbers can climb 5.10 sport, whereas V11 is the gateway to the elite class. Something on the order of 1 in 1000 climbers could climb a V11 crux on an otherwise 5.10 route. But that wasn't really the OP's point, because a 5.10 route with V11 crux would not be of interest to anyone: it's too hard for the 5.10 climber, and it's not sustained enough for the 5.14 climber; it's just lame. On the other hand, if you the chip the crux down to 5.10, then, according to the hypothetical presented, you'd have a stellar, continuous 5.10 route.

But the real question is why are you arguing against this practice after several prolific first ascentionists have informed you that it is almost always done? Get it? Several FAists have explained that the vast majority of worthwhile routes have been altererd. It's the rule, not the exception. The ethic that you champion is almost entirely theoretical. Few prominent first ascentionists, in spite of what they may have espoused publicly, have consistently followed it themselves. Chipping, cleaning, gluing are routine practices today, just as they have been for decades. And for good reason: most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state.

-Jay


benpullin


Oct 11, 2005, 10:04 AM
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most of you folks have absolutely no idea about what goes on during an FA. aid, trad, sport, whatever..

Would you expect anthing else from a rc.com thread?


billcoe_


Oct 11, 2005, 12:15 PM
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Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comforting holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.

The above is the OP's preface to the questions.


The question was #2, noted and also quoted above.

Your surprising answer was yes it is ok to drill to make the route easier. Given that 5.5 is a a poor and an exaggerated example, at what level then to you feel the cut off is. As in, sure its fine to drill pockets just to make a route easier (which is what you are both saying).

At what grade is the cut off for you? We have clarified that 5.5 is too low. You feel that is inappropriate. But that a V11 with multile pockets drilled so that it is a 5.10 is fine.

How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? Or where is that number?

And btw: you are wrong with the comments that this kind of thing is common. It is not.


fluxus


Oct 11, 2005, 12:23 PM
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The ethic that you champion is almost entirely theoretical.

exactly, and isn't that the point of this entire thread that climbers not involved in first ascents appear to believe in a mythologized version of what a first ascent should be, a myth that is far removed from the reality of putting up climbs?

Its funny because this is the case in so many ways in climbing, the recreational climbers believe in a completely synthetic version of climbing history and ethics.


jbak


Oct 11, 2005, 12:24 PM
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But the real question is why are you arguing against this practice after several prolific first ascentionists have informed you that it is almost always done? Get it? Several FAists have explained that the vast majority of worthwhile routes have been altererd. It's the rule, not the exception. The ethic that you champion is almost entirely theoretical. Few prominent first ascentionists, in spite of what they may have espoused publicly, have consistently followed it themselves. Chipping, cleaning, gluing are routine practices today, just as they have been for decades. And for good reason: most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state.

-Jay

Jay, I basically agree with you, but the tone of your post seems a bit more laizze-faire than I would have written. There are so many beginners on this site that I would urge them to do a LOT of thinking and gain a lot of experience before they go out and just start whacking away.


dingus


Oct 11, 2005, 12:29 PM
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Its funny because this is the case in so many ways in climbing, the recreational climbers believe in a completely synthetic version of climbing history and ethics.

Completely synthetic? The whole history of climbing?

How about some examples?

DMT


jt512


Oct 11, 2005, 12:32 PM
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There are so many beginners on this site that I would urge them to do a LOT of thinking and gain a lot of experience before they go out and just start whacking away.

Beginners shouldn't be putting up routes at all. Show me a crag where anyone other than the few most experienced climbers have put up routes and I'll show you a crag with some pretty awful routes.

-Jay


jbak


Oct 11, 2005, 12:40 PM
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How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? Or where is that number?

And btw: you are wrong with the comments that this kind of thing is common. It is not.

If somebody chips a single hold to move a one-move-wonder down four number grades to make it a more consistent, good route, I'm not going to complain. Or three. Or even two. Less than that, I would argue that one-move-wonders DO have some value (sampling the next grade) and I really don't want to *encourage* wholesale chipping anyway. And I agree that non-gray-area alteration is not really that common.


jbak


Oct 11, 2005, 12:43 PM
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In reply to:
There are so many beginners on this site that I would urge them to do a LOT of thinking and gain a lot of experience before they go out and just start whacking away.

Beginners shouldn't be putting up routes at all. Show me a crag where anyone other than the few most experienced climbers have put up routes and I'll show you a crag with some pretty awful routes.

-Jay

For sure. There are so many new climbers these days that I can't predict what they might do. Hence the note of caution.


crshbrn84


Oct 11, 2005, 12:53 PM
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1. NO
2. NO - dont chip just put anchors below the v11 crux
3. NO
this thread is pretty pointless


arrow


Oct 11, 2005, 1:12 PM
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jt512 wrote:
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most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state

I have to call bullshit on this statement jt


caughtinside


Oct 11, 2005, 1:32 PM
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this thread is pretty pointless

Actually it's pretty amusing. Even after numerous climbers with development experience attempt to explain what goes in to cleaning/developing routes, even more people with zero experience in this area chime in with the 'thou shalt not chip' mantra. It's so thick it's become a religious type dogma.

What I've always found interesting is how quickly newer climbers become engrained with their 'ethics.' How do you develop such passionate feelings about something you know little about, in a short amount of time? My guess is that it has something to do with what roughster talked about, fitting into the crowd.

It's as if climbers are looking to find fault as well. I'm pretty psyched on some of the local areas here, and always ask other local climbers if they've checked them out. And I always hear the same bullshit. "It's bolted too tight" a comment I heard from a 5.11 climber about a 5.8. Get on something harder chucklehead, then tell me what you think of bolt spacing! "I heard Bionic Bitch Slap was chipped." Are you kidding me? the complaints I've heard about "chipped holds" that weren't even touched far outnumber the complaints about holds that have actually seen varying degrees of cleaning. It's all such nonsense, I stopped listening to it. People just have no clue.

I could go on, but it would be futile. How many more uninformed

1)NO
2)NO
3)NO

responses does this thread need?


jt512


Oct 11, 2005, 1:55 PM
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In reply to:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state

I have to call s--- on this statement jt

Would you care to substantiate that in some way?

-Jay


fluxus


Oct 11, 2005, 2:11 PM
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Its funny because this is the case in so many ways in climbing, the recreational climbers believe in a completely synthetic version of climbing history and ethics.

Completely synthetic? The whole history of climbing?

How about some examples?

DMT

O.K. I realize that my last statement was more catagorical than it should have been. Its not as simple as the dichotomy that my post implies.

The history of climbing is murky at best. Since you asked for some, here are examples for you: The way recreational climbers lionize and overstate the achievement of the so called "vulgarians," a group of climbers who climbed in the gunks in the late 60 - 70s.

When a flurry of new route activity begain at Lost City in the late 1980's I was told straight out by more than one uninformed recreational climber that the new routes could not possibly be FA's because the vulgarians had already done all the routes at lost city! This statement is catagorically false yet even today I'm sure that you can find people who assume that this rag-tag group of climbers were regularly climbing all sorts of 5.12+ / 5.13 face climbs in 1974. (the truth is that only 1 maybe 2 climbers were climbing at the level in the Gunks at that time and it took them huge amounts of effort to climb 5.12a/b)

Another example is a little more broad but closer to the context of this thread. Here in California there have been a few famous climbers that have been outspoken about the superiority of their so called "climbing ethics", or in denouncing sport climbing for all sorts of reasons including its damage to the rock. Initials such as YC and RR among others come to mind. Many in the world of climbing take these statements at face value as the voices of great men whoes ideas should be respected and followed.

For me, (and others) these "great men" revealed their foolishness and egomania by asking us to buy into their ideas about "purity" without refrencing the tons of rock they trundled and cleaned, the trees they cut down, or damaged, the thousands upon thousands of feet of cracks they blugened to death with pins, the scars still visable today.

Where ever there is trad climbing there is a comunity of backwards looking climbers that mythologize some sort of "good old days" when climbing was somehow better, or more bold, or more adventerous. But I statred climbing at the end of those "good old days" and while there were a few standout climbers and achievements (there always are, in every age), for the most part the presumed glory of the past is greatly over stated.


billcoe_


Oct 11, 2005, 2:22 PM
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
most rock just doesn't make for good routes in its natural state

I have to call s--- on this statement jt



Frankly I'm surprised no one has called bull*shite on the rest of the statements as well.

When did power drilling holes become acceptable to bring a route down to your level. It's crap. I don't care if you are a begineer or a long time climber.

That is a hell of a lot different than knocking loose rocks off.


mbg


Oct 11, 2005, 2:49 PM
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At what grade is the cut off for you? We have clarified that 5.5 is too low. You feel that is inappropriate. But that a V11 with multile pockets drilled so that it is a 5.10 is fine.

How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9? Or where is that number?

Itís interesting that the pro-chip crowd are ignoring this question because it makes a hell of a point.

Publicity lends legitimacy. It's one thing to practice a certain style of ďethicsĒ at your home crag, but it's not doing anyone a favor to advise relative beginners to get with the times and embrace chipping everywhere because rock sucks without a little modification.


jt512


Oct 11, 2005, 3:01 PM
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In reply to:
How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9?

Itís interesting that the pro-chip crowd are ignoring this question because it makes a hell of a point.

The question is difficult to answer because it's a semi-stupid question. It is difficult to envision a route that would go from 5.11 to 5.9 by drilling a hold de novo. More common and realistic would be for the FAist to glue a loose hold, which if cleaned instead would produce a single 5.11 move on an otherwise 5.9 route. That sort of thing is done all the time. It is likely that you've climbed on many such routes yourself without having any idea as to what went into developing them.

A point that anti-chipping theorists consistently fail to grasp is that much so-called chipping is not done so that the FAist can climb the route. It's done so that the average recreational climbers out there can climb the route. Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can.

Happy now?

-Jay


thestingrea


Oct 11, 2005, 3:14 PM
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Somewhat straying from the path this poll is winding is a slightly different issue. Publicly owned land is just that, publicly owned land. Unless some sort of majority vote (community, state, even country wide) can be taken I don't see how anyone should have the right to decide for everyone else how their rock should be shaped. In other words its probably better to leave it for someone who today or fifty years from now will think it is just right. That said everyone have fun, get out there and find a sweet new route.


caughtinside


Oct 11, 2005, 3:21 PM
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Somewhat straying from the path this poll is winding is a slightly different issue. Publicly owned land is just that, publicly owned land. Unless some sort of majority vote (community, state, even country wide) can be taken I don't see how anyone should have the right to decide for everyone else how their rock should be shaped. In other words its probably better to leave it for someone who today or fifty years from now will think it is just right. That said everyone have fun, get out there and find a sweet new route.

Gotta love the 'increase regulation, please' faction! :lol:


fluxus


Oct 11, 2005, 4:05 PM
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I don't see how anyone should have the right to decide for everyone else how their rock should be shaped. In other words its probably better to leave it for someone who today or fifty years from now will think it is just right.

But that misses the point completely, there is no "just right" unless you mean," find the person who is willing to glue every inch of the climb in place." at least it means that in areas such as Maple etc. At some area every first ascent decides how the rock will be shaped, but this has nothing to do with "rights", nor should it really.

In reply to:
mbg wrote:
In reply to:
billcoe_ wrote:

How about a 5.11 being drilled to be a 5.9?


Itís interesting that the pro-chip crowd are ignoring this question because it makes a hell of a point.

who are you calling pro-chipping? For the chipping ambivalent such as myself, it only makes a so-so point. I've see routes chipped up and chipped down. What I hope for regardless of the style and "ethics" of the first ascent is a good route with interesting moves, that has an aesthetic quality to it.

The only real problem with chipping routes down is the issue of robbing the future. In some cases chippping may be done in a way that a high quality but far too hard by today's standards route gets reduced to 5.14 or 5.15. I'm not sure if I know of this happening, though, its a more theoritical point.


mbg


Oct 11, 2005, 4:06 PM
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Happy now?

-Jay

Not really.

I mostly agree with your gluing scenario but to say that it happens all the time (at least in the places I climb, major choss excluded) is a stretch. Most of the routes Iíve been involved with are on super soft sandstone and no gluing or chipping was needed to produce lines with a decent range of ratings.

The ďfor the good of allĒ development theory is credible too but it still doesnít address Billís question in relation to the original post.

I always thought that whoever named the California Ethics Pinnacle at Shelf was taking a cheap shot but now I'm not so sure! :wink:


jt512


Oct 11, 2005, 4:11 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Happy now?

-Jay

Not really.

I mostly agree with your gluing scenario but to say that it happens all the time (at least in the places I climb, major choss excluded) is a stretch. Most of the routes Iíve been involved with are on super soft sandstone and no gluing or chipping was needed to produce lines with a wide range of ratings.

So, instead, what, the FAist just pulled off the "loose" holds? He/you still had to decide what constitutes "loose." The definition of loose has a wide enough gray area to give the FAist a huge degree of control over what the final route will be like. A jug in the middle of an otherwise 5.13 route is going to be a lot "looser" than one in the middle of a 5.9.

-Jay


hasbeen


Oct 11, 2005, 4:13 PM
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There should be some sort of rule where one cannot speak about how a route was established until one has established at least one route themselves. It's quite unbelievable that these folks will continue to banter back and forth with absolutely no ammunition but comments they've read countless times in magazines like 'bringing the rock down to their level.'

I've said it before and I'll say it again, until you're out there pioneering yourself, you have no idea what you're spraying about.

Again, without naming any names, I'll provide you with another story featuring the uninformed, this time one that may have had negative consequences.

I get a phone call one day from someone asking if I'd been to such and such a place. "Duuuude," this guy begins. "They totaly botched the job, man. Brought the cliff down to their own level. I went to the landowners and they're pissed. They're shutting the place down. Those assholes ruined it for everyone, bro."

"That seems a little strange," I reply. "Because I've spoken to the first ascentionists and they both told me the only thing that was too bad about the place was that there weren't any hard routes.

"No way, duuuude. They brought the cliff down to their level."

"But aren't the routes all 5.10?"

"Yeah, mainly."

"Well both these guys climb 5.13. Why would they chip a bunch of 5.10s?"

Really long silence on the other end of the line.

"Umm, duuude. I don't know, man. But they botched it."

"Look," I say. "If I were you I'd go back to the land owner and try and smooth this over. That's insane. There is no way those guys would spend the time to chip 5.10s. It's just too much work, if nothing else."

"I dunno, man. Well, okay. I'll look again. But I'm pretty sure..."


mbg


Oct 11, 2005, 4:25 PM
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So, instead, what, the FAist just pulled off the "loose" holds? He/you still had to decide what constitutes "loose." The definition of loose has a wide enough gray area to give the FAist a huge degree of control over what the final route will be like. A jug in the middle of an otherwise 5.13 route is going to be a lot "looser" than one in the middle of a 5.9.

-Jay

Read back through my posts on this topic; I can't argue with you on that.


moose_droppings


Oct 11, 2005, 5:06 PM
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If your climbing for numbers, (5.7 5.9 .512 whatever), your climbing for the wrong reasons IMO
Climb what you can find, and leave it the way you found it.
Evidently, in this instant self gratifacation society, anyone can do anything they want, anywhere, anytime. Next it will be people suing the route builders for not making the route safe enough, incourageing people to climb there route with chips and bolts, but not enough for gramma who got half way up and fell. Boy do I want to be on that jury. Carefull what you wish for people.


arrow


Oct 11, 2005, 6:07 PM
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can.


Most First Ascensionists (myself included) are motivated by the adventure of climbing something new. Some FAers are motivated to put up the hardest routes they can find so they gain hardman status. I can't imagine any FAer putting up a 5.11 and then dumbing it down to 5.9 as a public service. That's the silliest bit of nonsense I've read in a long time. :lol:


jt512


Oct 11, 2005, 6:30 PM
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In reply to:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can.


Most First Ascensionists (myself included) are motivated by the adventure of climbing something new. Some FAers are motivated to put up the hardest routes they can find so they gain hardman status. I can't imagine any FAer putting up a 5.11 and then dumbing it down to 5.9 as a public service. That's the silliest bit of nonsense I've read in a long time. :lol:

Then you're very naive.

-Jay


dingus


Oct 11, 2005, 8:46 PM
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This statement is catagorically false yet even today I'm sure that you can find people who assume that this rag-tag group of climbers were regularly climbing all sorts of 5.12+ / 5.13 face climbs in 1974.

I thought the Vulgarians were late 50's into the 60's. Now dude, I've read extensively and I don't think the Vulgarians climbed out the Gunks or established a bunch of 12's. Uninformed noobs do not a synthetic past make.

In reply to:
Where ever there is trad climbing there is a comunity of backwards looking climbers that mythologize some sort of "good old days" when climbing was somehow better, or more bold, or more adventerous.

You may have a point to a certain extent. So what? Every society has those who look back and lionize the deeds of the forefathers. In some cases they get paid for it. It isn't a great crime to hold the past in reverence or something casually approaching it, like in climbing. Its good to have those who remember.

But all the trad climbers I know also boulder, sport, have done walls, and ice and shit and some of them even started before this decline you speak of. Honestly, not to score a debating point, these people are not looking backward, they're scanning the horizon for the most part. They have respect for the past and it colors their actions. But they seem to choose the best things to act upon. S'why I like climbing with them so much.

In reply to:
But I statred climbing at the end of those "good old days" and while there were a few standout climbers and achievements (there always are, in every age), for the most part the presumed glory of the past is greatly over stated.

So what? It isn't the job of the story teller to present a Xerox copy of some climb or tell every last detail about a generaton of climbers. Oral history is hugely ingrained in us all. There is a deep delight in the well told story. If allegory and lessons can be woven into the deeds of our forefathers, we are the prouder for it.

Don't denigrate our myths my friend, REVEL IN THEM! A generation of climbers is measured by its deeds yes. But it is also revealed in its dreams. Sure, RR, YC and others were human, flawed from the git. However, it cannot be credibly denied, both men played a major role in shaping not only OUR deeds, but our dreams too, a whole generation, maybe more.

That generation is aging now. They now represent the static past as youngsters today seek out new challenges. Twas no different when Robbins was a kid working in a bank. Never mind, there was a big difference. Back then climbing was fringe, instead of merely pretending to be so, as most of it is today.

Fluxux, I sense you have some stories in you too. Come on man, its part of being in the tribe. Ya gots your noobs (who don't know shit about climbing OR its history) and ya gots yer scribes. There are leaders and followers, inventors and fools. Old curmudgeons too. Climbers all. We're entitled to lionize the past. Allow us our fetish, I beg you good sir!

Cheers man
DMT


oldrnotboldr


Oct 12, 2005, 7:59 AM
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1- no
2- no
3- no


lizard0fthetrail


Oct 12, 2005, 8:12 AM
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1) no.
2) no.
3) no, under the usual circumstance. I, however, if put in a situation where I owned a parcel of land containing a blank face/cave/boulder, would have very little ethical issue on whether or not to chip it. I almost definitely would, if for no more reason than a cheap/free training ground outside. Furthermore, if I had a large piece of property and could allocate some of the reseources on my property to my advantage, i.e. using stones for walkways/walls/building or wood, without creating anything more than a mild impact, I certainly would, and I suppose many others would too. The environmental impact of chipping a rock is nil.


billcoe_


Oct 12, 2005, 8:32 AM
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In reply to:

Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comfortizing holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.

jt512, it appears you did not see this part of the first post? Nobody is talking about knocking loose rocks off a new route. Far as that goes, the question #2 asked was if you would drill new holds, it wasn't would you chip new holds.

As far as the gluing comment, I've never seen or heard of that done around here. The one notable time it happened at Dishman in washington state, it was roundly condemmed. I could understand gluing an existing marginal hold so that it was strengthened and would not pull off. I have not seen or heard of, or ever done a route drilled to make it easier either.

I think that is wrong on many levels.


jt512


Oct 12, 2005, 9:03 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comfortizing holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.

jt512, it appears you did not see this part of the first post? Nobody is talking about knocking loose rocks off a new route. Far as that goes, the question #2 asked was if you would drill new holds, it wasn't would you chip new holds.

If you want to confine the conversation strictly to the limits of the OP, then we also have to say that nobody was talking about 5.5 and 5.7 routes, except you.

-Jay


billcoe_


Oct 12, 2005, 9:19 AM
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Can you spell a-n-a-l-o-g-y rock defacer? :lol:


dingus


Oct 12, 2005, 9:27 AM
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So... what I am hearing from JT512 and others is that not only was Yaniro right (again), but that he ushred in an era where most new routes are chipped?

I've opened routes. Outside of choss pile sport climbing cliffs, Jay, I think you are WAY OVERSTATING your case.

I don't really care about chipping at places like Jailhouse. But pretending that is the norm 24/7 across this great land is ludicrous. None of the routes I've established are chipped. None of the routes my friends have established are chipped. None of my closest partners would agree that chipping is acceptable. ALL OF THEM have opened new routes and have been climbing for 20 years plus.

So I have to call BULLSHIT on the 'most routes are chipped and I'm niave to think otherwise.' BULL SHIT.

You guys who promote chipping as if it were the holy grail... you have signed on to Ray Jardine's philisophy that says it would be preferrable to have a 5.10 free route on El Cap even if that means chipping and glue on holds.

I'm not prepared to accept that. I'd say most in Yosemite feel the same way.

Maybe its just you SoCal sport climbers who have sold out to the chipping devil. The way you speak of it, ALL route developers down there chip. I don't believe you for a minute, but I feel sorry for the state of SoCal climbing if chisel weilding 'developers' are roaming the Monument looking to Michaelangelo new climbs. What a revolting thought. If you restate it to say, hey, this mostly goes down on choss pile sport cliffs, I think I would understand. But most new trad routes, ut uh, chipping would be an abberation, not the norm.

You personally are encouraging chipping, with your highly visible stance. You certainly promote it anyway.

DMT


billcoe_


Oct 12, 2005, 9:30 AM
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Thank Dingus: totally concur.

I was beginning to feel alone in this conversation.

we're having an arguement up here if it is right to put slings with a rap ring around a tree to try and save it, nobody wants bolts on the mid-route end of pitch ledge in case the tree dies and falls.

Starting to feel things are radiacally different in Calif., but I was in Yos this spring and nothing seemed remiss.

Did climb at Schultzes ridge with Dave Hardin, lots of bolts over that way, but no drilled pockets to make the routes go that I could see.


mbg


Oct 12, 2005, 9:32 AM
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Well said Dingus, thanks for stepping up.


billcoe_


Oct 12, 2005, 9:53 AM
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In reply to:
None of the routes I've established are chipped. None of the routes my friends have established are chipped. None of my closest partners would agree that chipping is acceptable. ALL OF THEM have opened new routes and have been climbing for 20 years plus.

Same here, and I know lots of people around this area developing as well.

I knew a guy who once hammered a small tree trunk (like a large Christmas tree size, 5" across x 4 " high) into a crack once so if you fell your rope wouldn't get chopped by the sharp edge/flake of the rock which would have existed without the tree stump being hammered in there. Course that chosspile was a former rock quarry, there use to be lots of "hold modification" with dynamite that ended like @50 years ago.

But that's about it that I know about, and someday that stump will rot out of there, or you could easilly hammer it back out right now if you wanted to do the route "Au Natural" and face the risk.


notch


Oct 12, 2005, 9:56 AM
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In reply to:
Post your responses to the three questions with either a YES (chipping is acceptable), NO (not acceptable), or NO OPINION (i.e. ambilvilence or don't care). No justifications please... this is a poll, not a discussion.


fluxus


Oct 12, 2005, 10:06 AM
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In reply to:
I thought the Vulgarians were late 50's into the 60's. Now dude, I've read extensively and I don't think the Vulgarians climbed out the Gunks or established a bunch of 12's. Uninformed noobs do not a synthetic past make.

In this case hundred or maybe thousands of misinformed recreational climbers do make a synthethic past. They are the one's telling the stories and building up a past that didn't really exist, and by the way they also inform public policy in some cases. This was evident during the so called bolt wars that occurred in the late 1980 on the east coast, many out spoken opponents of bolting based their opposition to bolting on thier misunderstanding of the past. We're not just talking about a few stupid noobs we are talking about every post vulgarian generation in the gunks. Not that you care, but you are completely wrong in acting like it doesn't matter because at specific times and places it matters very much.


Although I don't think you intended to make this argument, your last post basically says that history, or any sense of fairness / fullness of historical accounts does not matter; people will do what they want with it and thats fine by you. What ever. Its not fine by me because when it comes to chipping, bolting and so called ethics (sic.) lies about the purity of the past are constantly put forth as excuses to slander, inhibit, punish, vandalize etc the work of people putting up routes in the present.

Celebrating the past is a totally different issue, I can find many things worth celebrating in the history of climbing but it would be great if celebrating the past didn't translate into attempts to inhibit the present, and if our sense of the past allowed us to approach the dogmatism of the past in its proper context or al least with some objectivity.


dingus


Oct 12, 2005, 10:34 AM
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In reply to:
Although I don't think you intended to make this argument, your last post basically says that history, or any sense of fairness / fullness of historical accounts does not matter; people will do what they want with it and thats fine by you.

You're right, I did not make that argument. Shall I start inserting words into your mouth now too???

To paraphrase what I attempted to say, NO historical account is 100% accurate. Its like a map, the only accurate map is a complete recreation of the terrain. We don't have maps like that and our history doesn't work that way either.

In reply to:
lies about the purity of the past are constantly put forth as excuses to slander, inhibit, punish, vandalize etc the work of people putting up routes in the present.


Lies about the past cut across the grain from both directions. You launched this discussion by saying that ANYWHERE you have trad climbers you have backward looking people who use lies to promote their antiquated agendas in today's world. You paint people with an airbrush and then pretend that the 'other side' doesn't do the same thing? Whatever is RIGHT.

In reply to:
Celebrating the past is a totally different issue, I can find many things worth celebrating in the history of climbing but it would be great if celebrating the past didn't translate into attempts to inhibit the present, and if our sense of the past allowed us to approach the dogmatism of the past in its proper context or al least with some objectivity.

Yup. More people should be like me, then the world would be a better place.

DMT for President!

DMT


dingus


Oct 12, 2005, 10:38 AM
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BTW, if outright lies were used to convince the Preserve to ban bolts, I say that lie accomplished a good thing. The ends justify the means in this case, just like they do in rap bolting. A preserved Gunks is as internationally important, I believe, as is a preserved Tuolumne Meadows and Dresden. Not everything needs to be bolted by your pure-as-the-wind-driven-snow developers anyway.

DMT


snodawg


Oct 12, 2005, 11:35 AM
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NO NO AND NO AGAIN

Arnold for president


dingus


Oct 12, 2005, 11:37 AM
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In reply to:
NO NO AND NO AGAIN

Arnold for president

Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural.

You're welcome!

Got any live sex shows going on up there yet?

DMT


jbak


Oct 12, 2005, 11:48 AM
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