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stryker


Oct 3, 2005, 1:56 PM
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No - get stronger
No - get stronger
No - get a life and climb a real rock


kyote321


Oct 3, 2005, 2:01 PM
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'Traditional lead climbing is right on with the leave no trace ethic that will be essential to preserving climbing access in the US. '

you've got to be joking. trad climbers leave lots of stuff: slings, gear, pin scars, skin, blood, trails. they are at least as much of an impact as sport climb'n.


rmcclmbr


Oct 3, 2005, 2:04 PM
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1. NO
2. NO. Even though I can see someones point with this option, I think the rock should be kept in it's natural state. There are plenty of other routes you can climb.
3. NO


Partner xtrmecat


Oct 3, 2005, 3:51 PM
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No, No, and finally No! What are you thinking?


shanz


Oct 3, 2005, 4:14 PM
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No
No
No


korntera


Oct 3, 2005, 4:26 PM
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#1 no
#2 make a bolt ladder, not holds or make the route stop before the blank section. I have been on 30 foot routes on a 100 foot wall because of a blank section.
#3 If you own the property go ahead, any other reason, hell no!


roughster


Oct 3, 2005, 4:47 PM
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In reply to:
When is roughster going to chime in here?

You want to know what I think about this?

B~I = f [w1] with the heaviest influence and weighting set on SN. (SN = Subjective Norm)

Visually speaking:

http://www.ciadvertising.org/...ioner/belding/af.gif

Climbers as a whole are much too concerned about 12-3 o'clock positons in my opinion. So much so that you could apply a pre-teen / teenage Peer Pressure model to the climbing community to more accurately predict the "typical" response from the majority of climbers.

In layman's terms? Climbers are more concerned about fiting in with other climbers rather than be willing to understand and come up with their own stance. The SN or subjective norm (you can also think of it as social norm) is not just a factor, it is in fact a filter for original thought since you will self sensor your own ideas based upon the input from the right quadrant of the diagram.

The irony of all this is climbers have a tradition of being social outcasts who think outside of the day to day social norms, but now we have built our own social model that exactly parallels mainstream society and more specifically pre-teen / teen Peer Pressure models. :lol:

As for chipping? Don't care. I am paddling these days more than climbing. Who would have guessed that a shoulder injury could be a blessing in disguise!


1080climber


Oct 3, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Once upon a time in a land far far away......
there was a climb that one young man thought could not be done, it was hard and also in a chossy crap crag where use of glue to keep holds on was everywhere. So was the case with this climb, but he made holds out of glue, no chipping, but creating. Of course people were angry and sad but as time went on they came to love this climb as it was a classic.
But then one summer while everybody was gone climbing in better places two well known climbers smashed every fake manufactured hold off the route, and then climbed it to prove it could be done. But they made everybody mad again, by doing what they thought was right and good they destroyed a classic.
Is this as bad as chipping?
Where they right or wrong? and did they have the right to decide?


chalkfree


Oct 3, 2005, 5:24 PM
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In answer to the questions

NO
NO
NO

Someone will get up it someday, be it on aid with suction cups, whatever. Leave it be till then.


fluxus


Oct 3, 2005, 7:02 PM
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thank you roughster if I had a trophy to give it would be yours.

I think the poll does serve a purpose, it shows that most of the respondents have a limited understanding of what is going on at their crags and limited context in which to understand the questions.

Here are other questions for you:

1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

5) if climber 'A' manufactures a route or two on a totally blank and featurless abandon quarry in upstate NY, and on another day climbing at a natural area in PA, comes across a natural route with a chipped hold and proceeds to easily do the routes without the chipped hold and is critical of the chipper who chipped a natural route for no reason at all beyond their lack of vision. How evil is climber 'A'?

6) A climber at Red Rocks wishes the grades there were not so soft. After a winter rainstorm he goes and gets on a few routes in the gallery before they dry off and accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?


billcoe_


Oct 4, 2005, 8:02 AM
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In reply to:
thank you roughster if I had a trophy to give it would be yours.

I think the poll does serve a purpose, it shows that most of the respondents have a limited understanding of what is going on at their crags and limited context in which to understand the questions.

Here are other questions for you:

1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

5) if climber 'A' manufactures a route or two on a totally blank and featurless abandon quarry in upstate NY, and on another day climbing at a natural area in PA, comes across a natural route with a chipped hold and proceeds to easily do the routes without the chipped hold and is critical of the chipper who chipped a natural route for no reason at all beyond their lack of vision. How evil is climber 'A'?

6) A climber at Red Rocks wishes the grades there were not so soft. After a winter rainstorm he goes and gets on a few routes in the gallery before they dry off and accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?

Too many questions.

Use your judgement. I'm sure Jeffery Dahmaer had some real positive things about him too, but would ya let him babysit your kids?


silkyerm


Oct 4, 2005, 8:14 AM
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NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
NO :evil:
:!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


jt512


Oct 4, 2005, 8:56 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
When is roughster going to chime in here?

You want to know what I think about this?

B~I = f [w1] with the heaviest influence and weighting set on SN. (SN = Subjective Norm)

Visually speaking:

http://www.ciadvertising.org/...ioner/belding/af.gif

Climbers as a whole are much too concerned about 12-3 o'clock positons in my opinion. So much so that you could apply a pre-teen / teenage Peer Pressure model to the climbing community to more accurately predict the "typical" response from the majority of climbers.

In layman's terms? Climbers are more concerned about fiting in with other climbers rather than be willing to understand and come up with their own stance. The SN or subjective norm (you can also think of it as social norm) is not just a factor, it is in fact a filter for original thought since you will self sensor your own ideas based upon the input from the right quadrant of the diagram.

The irony of all this is climbers have a tradition of being social outcasts who think outside of the day to day social norms, but now we have built our own social model that exactly parallels mainstream society and more specifically pre-teen / teen Peer Pressure models. :lol:

As for chipping? Don't care. I am paddling these days more than climbing. Who would have guessed that a shoulder injury could be a blessing in disguise!

Trophy, minus one style point for the phrase "visually speaking."

-Jay


dingus


Oct 4, 2005, 9:01 AM
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In reply to:
1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends upon what is being cleaned and how. A lot of aggressive rock manipulation has gone down under the guise of 'cleaning.'

In reply to:
2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

Acceptable to whom? To me? It depends.

In reply to:
3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

Of course its chipping! Its just viewed as necessary chipping where it happens frequently, like on limestone. No hold modification, no climb, or so I've been told. That's chipping, 101.

In reply to:
4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

Yes, and its chipping when new school climbers do it too.

In reply to:
5) How evil is climber 'A'?

As evil as she wants to be?

In reply to:
6) accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

Not really.

In reply to:
7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?

That person needs to be bitch slapped. Hard.

DMT


jt512


Oct 4, 2005, 9:11 AM
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As usual, It Depends, but forced between answering "yes" or "no," here goes:

1. Marginally "No" because of the italicized phrase in the question, "Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? Had the phrase instead been to produce a sustained 5.12 route I would have been more inclined to vote "Yes."

2. Yes

3. Yes

Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

-Jay


fluxus


Oct 4, 2005, 1:21 PM
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In reply to:
Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

Exactly.

I don't know how many other people contributing to this thread have bolted, cleaned, put up routes, but I've done it in the Gunks, At Lion's Head, at the NRG, at AF, and at Maple among others. In an area such as Maple, over 90% of the routes are manufactured. Its rare to come across a drilled pocket or something like that but the person putting up the route has to make descisions about what stays and what goes. At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be. This is also the case for routes in many SoCal climbing areas such as NJC, some part of Williamson, and all of Echo.

So, for all of you who are dead set against chipping, are you either: 1)choosing to ignore all the manipulation that goes into cleaning a route, in which the cleaner decides what the route will be or
2) do you think that an internationally renound area such as the box canyon should not have been developed? or
3) are you dishonest enough to say that cleaning and chipping are not the same thing?


jt512


Oct 4, 2005, 1:33 PM
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In reply to:
Its rare to come across a drilled pocket or something like that but the person putting up the route has to make descisions about what stays and what goes. At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.

This is the most clearly I have ever seen this stated.

-Jay


mbg


Oct 4, 2005, 2:37 PM
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These threads always boil down to a debate on the murky line that separates chipping from cleaning and/or making a route safe.

People relatively new to the game show their ignorance on route development and veterans often show their indifferent attitude towards huffing fumes in the great outdoors and unwarranted enhancement.


jbak


Oct 4, 2005, 3:30 PM
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In reply to:

I don't know how many other people contributing to this thread have bolted, cleaned, put up routes,

At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.

Totally agree. I think people who have never done FAs imagine that overhanging routes in chossy areas somehow spring into being perfectly clean and ready to go. They have no idea how much cleaning and how much thought goes into developing such routes. Decisions ARE made.


hasbeen


Oct 10, 2005, 2:50 PM
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Totally agree. I think people who have never done FAs imagine that overhanging routes in chossy areas somehow spring into being perfectly clean and ready to go. They have no idea how much cleaning and how much thought goes into developing such routes. Decisions ARE made.

having established hundred's of routes in various styles in various countries with various climbers of varying notoriety, most of you folks have absolutely no idea about what goes on during an FA. aid, trad, sport, whatever. i could tell you stories, some which would completely destroy that mag-induced ivory clean image of your heroes that you currently hold.

what i've never understood was why it's spun that way it is. i mean, i get it when we're talking to lay folks, especially land use managment who probably don't understand the sport. but when we artificially create this rift within our community that often leads to access problems (like in josh) when most of the people doing all the squawking have no clue as to the process they're discussing there can't be any upside.

so i'll leave you with a funny story, instead of fueling the fire over which famous persons should be slandered.

there was this guy who used to occasionally climb with our group. he wasn't too talented, which we don't care at all about. but to cover his ineptetude, he would carry around an old interview of a well known climber and use the "pure" ethics of the piece as why he had to back off every lead, never try a hard move or do anything remotely scary. it was pretty funny because he was even misinterpreting the article as an excuse to never push himself under a "real climbers don't fall" sort of image. he was so taking by this philosophy that he used to carry the piece around with him, flashing it regularly to people trying to help him climb better.

but a bomb was dropped on him when an editor of that mag joined our group, explaining to him that that article's author slanted the piece so much that the subject refused further interviews from the mag and that his hero didn't agree with that approach to climbing at all. the really weird thing was that instead of being crushed, he continued to carry the piece around with him and espouse this--now false--philosophy.


billcoe_


Oct 10, 2005, 4:58 PM
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In reply to:



2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?


So JT, I'm not usre I understand: according to you, since the above is OK (your second Yes), then we can surmise that if the route is 5.5, but the route has a short 5.7 section, it's ok to hammer, power drill and chip to make the whole route 5.5?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Bill


jt512


Oct 10, 2005, 5:42 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:



2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?


So JT, I'm not usre I understand: according to you, since the above is OK (your second Yes), then we can surmise that if the route is 5.5, but the route has a short 5.7 section, it's ok to hammer, power drill and chip to make the whole route 5.5?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Bill

I don't know whether it would be eithical or not. It would certainly be pointless. Your analogy is invalid.

-Jay


billcoe_


Oct 10, 2005, 9:03 PM
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In reply to:
As usual, It Depends, but forced between answering "yes" or "no," here goes:

1. Marginally "No" because of the italicized phrase in the question, "Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? Had the phrase instead been to produce a sustained 5.12 route I would have been more inclined to vote "Yes."

2. Yes

3. Yes

Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

-Jay

According to the OP:
In reply to:
Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comforting holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.


.................

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?

Hmmm: it's a yes if the route is being chipped down to a 5.10 according to you? But a 5.5 leader chipping it down from a 5.7 is an invalid analogy? I don't think so, apples to apples JT. It could read thusly - picture this, same paragraph with the ratings changed:

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.5 climbing has one very-short harder section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable by our aspiring 5.5 leader, but it is minimally a V1 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in this pussy chipped up route anyway. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.5. Is chipping acceptable in this case?


Looks the same to me, and that you are saying it's fine to chip as long s the route is harder, like 5.10, but not 5.7. Just clarifying.

Bill


fracture


Oct 11, 2005, 8:02 AM
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In reply to:
But a 5.5 leader chipping it down from a 5.7 is an invalid analogy? I don't think so, apples to apples JT. It could read thusly - picture this, same paragraph with the ratings changed:

The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.

Certainly not "apples to apples". But nice attempt to confuse the issue.

In reply to:
... but it is minimally a V1 crux.

Do you really think V1 is 5.7? Have you ever climbed a V1?


billcoe_


Oct 11, 2005, 9:23 AM
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In reply to:
The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.

Certainly not "apples to apples". But nice attempt to confuse the issue.

In reply to:
Do you really think V1 is 5.7? Have you ever climbed a V1?

Yup.

So then you are saying that it's OK to drill extra pockets for 5.10, but not 5.7 because more people can do 5.7 than 5.10 and/or that the spread between 5.5 and 5.7 is a lot less than V11-5.10?

So fracture - my example should have entailed what? It's an 11A but our climber wants to make the route 5.9 so the holes get drilled? Or perhaps the rest of the route is 5.2, but there is a short section of wicked 5.10 which our aspiring leader knows he cannot do on his best day, so is it then OK for him (since for JT and yourself it seems plenty OK to drill to reduce it from V11 to 5.10) to drill huge pockets to make it a full 80' pitch of 5.2 so that he can do it.

??

Bill

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