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tashtego
Jan 14, 2004, 10:24 AM
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I've been told that although not intended as such, the GriGri can be safely used as a solo aid device, and that a minor "modification" makes it safer. I've used it to self-belay on very short practice routes a couple of times, but I want to be sure I'm not being foolhardy before tackling anything larger. So, two questions:
What are the dangers involved in using a GriGri to self belay?
What is this modification?
I've pondered and tested situations where the device would not lock, and other than the release lever becoming entangled with other gear (aiders, etc) I can't think of why it wouldn't work. It also seems it would be safer than a soloist in a head-first fall.
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tedc
Jan 14, 2004, 10:31 AM
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Back up knots solve the issue of the Gri Gri not fully grabbing the rope. For the modification, do a web search. Some may say that the "modified Gri Gri" has the potential to damage the rope with a sharp edge. The main safety concern from my point of view is the use of one biner. Either make SURE it can't get cross loaded or use a biner that is strong enough even if cross loaded (STEEL).
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timpanogos
Jan 14, 2004, 10:31 AM
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The mod you refer to does not make it safer (but a less safe in some eyes) - it makes it feed easier for free climbing solo (verses slower aid solo where it feeds just fine).
If you are free climbing soloing there are better devices - for aid - many (like myself) use it all the time.
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 10:41 AM
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I use a grigri as my solo aid device sometimes. This is what I have found:
A backup is necessary. With all the crap at your tie-in point, it is entirely possible that something could trap the camming device, not allowing it to work properly. Though I have not heard of this happening...but I have seen the clusterF****s that I create there, so it is possible. A backup is good anyway.
Without the modification, the grigri is always catching the rope and trapping me when I forget to manually feed it, at least when there isn't enough rope out to pull through due to its own weight.
There is a fine line where the rope will feed nicely on its own. Not enought rope out, and you have to constantly squeeze the cam or feed rope out before moving up. Too much rope out and next thing you know, 25 feet of slack has worked its way into the system and you don't know it! (as far as re-belaying to prevent this...see the debates in the aid forum and at least use a veeeery long prussik to avoid taking dynamic rope out of your system or risking burning through the rope with the prussik...I avoid rebelays when possible)
I have not modified my grigri, and here is why> The side flap that you "cut off" exists to keep a larger surface area of the rope in contact with the camming device. Cutting it off lets the rope feed through more "automatically", but imagine if you fall upsidedown without this little flap...very little contact between the rope and the camming device. With your feet in aiders or tangled up in stuff, I could see an upside down fall happening while aid climbing, so I have not made this modification.
That being said...aid soloing with a gri-gri requires a helluva lot more thought that belaying with one, and is not for the inexperienced (relatively speaking) or for anyone who isn't a real stickler for safety at all times.
Have I tried a silent partner? No, but with the lack of self-feeding potential, the ability to have rope self-feed, and a locking mechanizm that cant be incapacitated by being trapped by a daisy/fifi/backup knot, harness strap, I may well plunk down the 250 eventually. It is big and only has one use, wheras the grigri is small and can serve many purposes.
I am not an aid guru, but have soloed many (maybe 60 at this point) pitches, so my comments above are from experience.
-Kate.
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stizrizzo
Jan 14, 2004, 12:10 PM
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Use caution with new or skinny ropes, as rope can inadvertently pull through, without activating the cam.
Backup with a clove hitch (also provides redundency should GriGri Biner break)
From experience, but gumby advice nonetheless.
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ricardol
Jan 14, 2004, 1:15 PM
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In reply to: Use caution with new or skinny ropes, as rope can inadvertently pull through, without activating the cam. Backup with a clove hitch (also provides redundency should GriGri Biner break) From experience, but gumby advice nonetheless.
... sounds more complex than it needs to be .. back it up witha overhand or figure eight to a locking biner on your harness ..
-- ricardo
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crackboy
Jan 14, 2004, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Use caution with new or skinny ropes, as rope can inadvertently pull through, without activating the cam. Backup with a clove hitch (also provides redundency should GriGri Biner break) From experience, but gumby advice nonetheless. ... sounds more complex than it needs to be .. back it up witha overhand or figure eight to a locking biner on your harness .. -- ricardo
i dunno abou tmore complex, to me it seems like a clove hitch would be less complex than an overhand on a bite. plus you can do it all one handed and you never have to unclip the backup biner. that seems like it would be an ideal backup knot
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sspssp
Jan 14, 2004, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: Backup with a clove hitch (also provides redundency should GriGri Biner break)
When you backup with a clove hitch, are you tying the clove hitch each time (because it is quicker than tying a figure eight) or are you feeding the clove hitch through.
I've thought about using a clove hitch to backup a grigri, but it seems like it would be tediuous to have to continually feed both it and the grigri and (more importantly) it seems like feeding a clove would twist the rope.
Anyone?
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timpanogos
Jan 14, 2004, 4:01 PM
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Like Ricardo said - just throw an overhand on a bite and clip off the bite.
More detailed:
Word get go example:
1. reach down 4 to 5 feet on the slack side of your grigri (enough to make 2nd piece.
2. pull a bite and tie overhand knot.
3. climb to 2nd placement (overhand knot is now very close to grigri, let's say you are 10' off the ground now -
4.I still want to play it safe, so get another 3 feet of rope, below the current knot - and tie another overhand knot in a bite. Having a larger pear shaped backup locker helps here - slip the new bite loop into the locker - then remove the old - short loop from the locker - untie and drop it - you now have about a 5 to 6 foot loop - enought for next move.
5. as you start getting higher, you can pull longer loops (enough for several moves) as long as you calculate your ground/ledge fall potential on loop
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calamity_chk
Jan 14, 2004, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: What are the dangers involved in using a GriGri to self belay? What is this modification?
as a total climbing addict and gumbie, i asked a climbing mentor these same questions, amongst others, early last year. his response to me was, "if you were really ready [skill-wise] to practice aid without anyone around to help if something were to go wrong, then you wouldnt need to ask these questions in the first place."
the response was frustrating, but the logic was right-on.
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dsafanda
Jan 14, 2004, 5:56 PM
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How do you gus and gals withy more experience deal with the issue of the wieght of the rope causing it to slip down through the Gri-Gri? Know what I'm talking about? In my brief and few forrays in to aid soloing this was my only problem with the Gri-Gri.
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timpanogos
Jan 14, 2004, 6:05 PM
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You will want to search the aid forum for detailed discussion on this.
Search for rebelay prusik - lots of pro's/cons. You will learn some cool other uses - saving your rope/life on jug around sharp edges.
It is crucial that you deal with this issue with the grigri!
Even within 30/40 feet this problem will manifest itself.
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flamer
Jan 14, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: How do you gus and gals deal with the issue of the wieght of the rope causing the rope to slip through the Gri-Gri? Know what I'm talking about? In my brief and few forrays in to aid soloing this was my only problem with the Gri-Gri.
Just tie off some good peice's as you climb. Bolts are Ideal, just throw a locker(or an oval) on it , pull the rope tight to the anchor and tie it off with a clove.
Speaking of clove's, It's a much better knot to use for back up's(IMO of course!) Ever tried to untie an overhand on a bight that's been shock loaded?
Chad! Dude! You tie off every 4 ft!!! That's too close my man! Try every 10, and behold the wonders of moving faster!!
I still would prefer to use a clove hitch over a grigri, as my solo belay.
BUT now that I have discovered the wonders of the Silent Partner....nothing else need apply!
josh
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 6:24 PM
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Regarding tying off to peices as you go... some find it acceptable, but I am not a huge fan...here's why. Let me know if you see it differently & why, because the rope-pulling itself through my grigri is really annoying, but the thoughts below make me reluctant to "rebalay" by tying off peices...
Say you have 40 feet of rope out. you take a fall. All 40 feet of rope absorb the shock of the fall, especially nice on dicy peices. Nice
Say you have 40 feet of rope out. You tie the rope directly to a locker on a bolt. You move up, place a peice, and the peice blows. Factor 2 fall onto the locker on the bolt.
Same scenario, but you get a couple of peices in above the tied off bolt. Then you fall. Still a veeery harsh fall, like taking a whipper on the first bolt of a sport climb with a completely static belay.
Again...aid soloing is not for everyone!
-Kate.
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timpanogos
Jan 14, 2004, 6:34 PM
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Josh,
There is no sense in tieing off at all if your tie off loop exceeds the distance to the ground. Heck you might as well not tie one until you get to about the 4th or 5th move if you are going to drop a 15 foot loop right off the belay if there is ground fall potential.
The intended point of the list was:
1. To avoid ground fall, you will start out with very small loops for the first several moves. As noted drop your loops based on that ground fall potential is. As noted, the higher you get, the longer loops you can drop - always calculating.
2. Once into the routine, you will place a new knot, then drop the old one.
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 6:40 PM
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I am an evil sinner because I don't tie a backup until I am 25 feet off the deck if it is C1. evil careless sinner. Consider it highballing. See? I am an aid boulderer. Without a crashpad. Still, since I am super effective, that is only about 3 or 4 moves. heh.
Ricardo: What do you do about rebelaying to avoid the rope slipping through?
-Kate.
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trguy
Jan 14, 2004, 7:21 PM
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I used a Gri Gri to solo Space Shot this summer and it worked fine. Opted against the mod. The intention of the mods I saw were to allow the Gri Gri to be tied into both your harness and into a chest harness. There were pros and cons but I though tying a back-up knot was the way to go.
As for tying off pieces - I did (1) pitch with out tying into a unit (besides the main anchor). By the end of the pitch, the weight of rope was pulling slack through the Gri Gri. Somewhat alarming at times, not a big deal at others. What worked well was tying into a piece 1/2 way up the pitch with a long sling such that if you fell the piece would not be loaded at all. I used a shoulder sling.
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furryfrisbee
Jan 14, 2004, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: What is this modification?
Here is A modification of the Gri Gri, it may not be the one you were looking for though (it's not the same as the first one I saw). Be safe, be careful, have fun, where brown pants.
http://ulrichprinz.com/alpin/equipment/selfmade/#grigri
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timpanogos
Jan 14, 2004, 7:54 PM
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Dang Kate, you must have some reach girl.
25/3 = 8.3 feet per move
25/4 = 6.25 feet per move.
From my knee to my highest reach, that I could place gear is about 5' - your going to lose 6" of this to the piece, sling/binner (at least) -
So, for me, If I'm in the top rings of my russian aiders I might have 5' between pieces.
Rule of thumb for gumby me - plan pro/binners etc. for 4' average placements - which is what my discussion was based on (best case fall distance - 4'.
Sure if it's bolt ladder - hi ball it - c2 for me - sew it up chickensheet - non-speed climber here.
Once again, as you noted - you may choose to not tie until somewhere between mere ankle sprain heigth to broken femur level.
Chad
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 7:57 PM
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Important Re: Sawing off the flap:
Recognize what this does to the surface contact between the rope and the cam...the rope is no longer "held tight" against a large portion of the cam. This is why it feeds easier.
Just beware of what this means if you are hanging upside down with the rope pointing out of the bottom of the grigri when it is attached to your chest harness and regular harness.
And if you can't figure this out, then you should not be modifying your grigri as such. If you can figure it out, then make the decision understanding the risks involved. I'm not saying its bad, just saying "take note"
-Kate.
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 8:11 PM
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Hey Chad:
That's why there was a heh there.
However, since you brought it up, my reach on easy ground is excellent, as I regulary stand on the spreader bar of my yates ladders (small girlie feet) and I clip the ladder directly to a biner that goes directly into the peice. Also, I even put mini-clip loops on my BD cams to save 3 inches!
6+ feet happens all the time on C1. Four feet between placements would be a crying shame unless it was overhung.
Only bragging 'cause you made me.
Of course if it isn't C1, I s*** myself. So there.
-Kate.
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timpanogos
Jan 14, 2004, 8:35 PM
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p.s. if you have never read the thread on the guy who factor two'ed, broke his beafy new locker on his grigri - twisted the grigri to uselessness and I think broke a rib - but survived by being caught on his backup knot
look it up - interesting read.
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 8:41 PM
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Yeah, I use a small petzl ball lock on my grigri when soloing. 2 reasons...
1) takes so much futzing to open it, I know I won't open it by accident (ie confusing it with my backup knot locker)
2) I had a huge locker for my grigri at first, and, as I climb non-hauling aid in my sporto harness, there was room for it to twist around and actually cross load sometimes! Having the small petzl biner, it is crammed on tight enough that it dosn't twist around sideways.
Note to aspiring aid soloists - chose your grigri attachment biner carefully...these are just my preferences, but the moral of the story is to put some thought into it.
-Kate.
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flamer
Jan 14, 2004, 8:46 PM
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Chad- I agree with kate- sack-up buddy what's a 10 ft fall to the ground? Have alittle more confidence in your gear placement. When the gear is crap I MIGHT tie a back up knot sooner- but isn't it a BACKUP knot? If you have to tie it every four ft then why use the grigri at all? Why not just tie a new knot every 4 ft?
Kate in regard's tying off gear so the grigri won't self feed. you're reading way to far into it. Yes you can generate bigger fall factors Onto the bolt, and onto yourself. I believe you used the falling onto the first bolt of a sport climb example, and if that's all the force you're generating then what's the problem? If you're that worried about it use a screamer. Honestly if that bolt fails you have the anchor behind it. Wait til you take your first daisy fall! Talk about force's!!
Ok I think I'm done with this thread as I don't want to talk in circle's...
josh
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 8:51 PM
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Hey Josh...thanks for the commentary! My concerns on rebelay were based on an old thread in the aid forum, and so I am always curious what others think on it. Copperhead swears that rebelaying like this is certain death in a debate with PTPP, I just wanted some more perspective, so thanks.
See ya round!
-Kate.
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timpanogos
Jan 14, 2004, 9:01 PM
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Josh,
you still missed the point
let me quote my original post
In reply to: 5. as you start getting higher, you can pull longer loops (enough for several moves) as long as you calculate your ground/ledge fall potential on loop
Also, please note that these instructions were for someone (original poster) who has no idea what is up with this - they are out for the first time - what should they do? - heck guys - high ball it to 25' then play with a backup knot from that point on - great advice!
In fact, tell them to just have some one at the crag tie the lead line to their aiders when they are about 3 moves up - no sense funtzing with ropes, backup knots and all that good stuff till you are well on your way!
Kate - on the Pete thread - not to start that all over here again - that is why I suggested before to go there and read it - but it's best to not clove off on the piece but to put a long prusik (I have 2' loops, drop one on a 2' runner and you now allow for 4' of streach before you load the piece
Chad
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holdplease2
Jan 14, 2004, 9:04 PM
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All good points, Chad, thanks for the clarification and hope to run into you in zion sometime.
-Kate.
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epic_ed
Jan 15, 2004, 11:46 AM
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Richard, excellent idea with the duct tape to keep the grigri from moving into position to get cross loaded. But where are you attaching the keep loop to on the grigri? I assume you modified the grigri somoehow.
Ed
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timpanogos
Jan 15, 2004, 11:58 AM
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Richard,
What Ed asked ...
I would also like to tether my grigri - but do not want any major (even much over minor) physical modifications.
In my current gym jugging, I simply tied a piece of 2mil cord in the binner hole, but this is a very poor solution.
The duck tape is a great idea, not only to help (along with dmm plastic clamp - which I also use) keep the grigri in a good position, but to also keep the tether from getting up into the action.
Please show us the other side of that beauty so we can see how you teathered it.
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erdeneruc
Jan 15, 2004, 12:56 PM
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Kate - I would not fix my rope to a locking biner, nor would I tie it to a biner at the end of a runner. This would lead to the problem that you describe.
Since we are trying to keep the weight of the rope manageable so it does not slip through the belay device, I can achieve the same effect by using a prussik loop. Just keep the loop long, tie the prussik knot on the rope, clip it to the biner in question, then take the slack out of the system. Do that by pulling the rope up, and setting setting the prussik lower on the rope. That way, when I fall the rope can stretch, moving up and through the biner. The prussik would ride up with the rope, it would go slack, but would not bind it.
A side benefit of this set up is that my pro will remain correctly aligned, and it will not lift up when the rope stretches. Just visualize a stopper fixed to the rope, first directly, then with the long prussik - you get the idea...
Erden.
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spike
Jan 15, 2004, 1:17 PM
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HI epic_ed & timpanogos,
Here is a picture of how I added cord.
Drill small hole in black plastic, use 3m cord with knot, plus seam grip to keep it in place. I attach a longer cord to the small cord, so if/when the longer cord wears out it is easy to replace. You can see the longer cord attached to the short cord in the previous image. :D
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=13474
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climbhigher
Jan 15, 2004, 1:44 PM
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WATCH OUT!!!! don't cross load your locking biner when using a grigri. And my Modifyed Girgri is sketchy at best. (It has not caught me everytime). And one time the lever got caught on something and i went for a ride to. Saw off the lever. IT's crazy not to use a BACK UP Knot. I guess when i rope solo. I just don't plan on falling. I take the same attitiude as when i solo without a rope.
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ricardol
Jan 15, 2004, 1:52 PM
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In reply to: I am an evil sinner because I don't tie a backup until I am 25 feet off the deck if it is C1. evil careless sinner. Consider it highballing. See? I am an aid boulderer. Without a crashpad. Still, since I am super effective, that is only about 3 or 4 moves. heh. Ricardo: What do you do about rebelaying to avoid the rope slipping through? -Kate.
.. kate ..
i do the same thing you're talking about -- i tie the backup once i'm at least 20+ feet off the deck .. before that .. you're going to deck anyways .. (plus is a "backup" -- most of the time it doesn't come into play!) ..
.. about re-belaying .. i use long prussiks .. (i forget their length -- i think mine are tied out of 6' lengths of 6mm cord.. though that might be wrong -- i'm not at home to check right now) ..
.. i've taken 4 aid falls on re-belayed lead lines .. and checked where the prussik ended after the ride came to a stop .. always right below the carabiner of the piece .. so its a good system in my book .. you have to take all the slack out of the line when you put it on the prussik .. blah blah..
.. if your prussik is too short then you could run into trouble where your fall is arrested by the prussik .. which could kill you. (will kill you)... like someone said earlier .. soloing is not for everyone.
-- ricardo
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ricardol
Jan 15, 2004, 2:02 PM
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thats a modification i have to make to my grigri! -- (keeper cord) .. the whole way up on zodiac i was scared i would drop the grigri every time i had to remove it to thread it onto the other line ..
(i knew how to use other methods -- so dropping it would have just been inconvenient)
-- ricardo
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epic_ed
Jan 15, 2004, 2:25 PM
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Yeah, but can you solve them for about $200 less? :mrgreen:
Richard, thanks for the photos. Great idea.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 15, 2004, 2:56 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, but can you solve them for about $200 less? :mrgreen:
Ummm... Steal one???
Hahaha,
Jp
(Don't take this literally... some people might)
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timpanogos
Jan 15, 2004, 3:53 PM
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yea, time to get out the drill! Thanks
That picture does go to show that some gear you just do not retire!
(those gloves are great!)
cool picture.
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crackboy
Jan 15, 2004, 4:50 PM
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hey spike do you tie a cord to orientate the gri up for a chest harness?
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timpanogos
Jan 15, 2004, 10:09 PM
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Dang - climbing on the brain ....
A little math ....
25' off deck - I'm standing on a nice bolt - Next moves are some nasty looking blown out pin scars - c2 pro placements - so good time to tie a backup knot - I drop a 10' loop off my backup binner.
I highstep on up there - say 6' and place my next piece - quick waist bounce feels good, jump on it. You reach down and drop a regular runner and clip the bolt - grab your aider and start heading for the next top stepper - pop - the piece you are standing on pops.
At 13' off the deck your grigri starts to load - but somehow fails (caught handle or what ever) - unfortunately you now have 20' of rope in the loop to go and only 13' of air.
If your rope had - say - 6% elongation you are going to roughly stretch
50 * .06 = 3'
If you had a 5' loop at 25' - you will not deck - very hard (2' runner - 1' stretch before decking).
p.s.
reminds of of an old bumper sticker I saw once:
"299,792,458 meters per second - it's not just a good idea - it's the law!"
Chad
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holdplease2
Jan 15, 2004, 10:32 PM
Post #42 of 47
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Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 1733
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Thanks for your comments and thoughts, guys, much appreciated. Right about now I am so sick of getting short-roped by my GriGri, especially as I get faster, I may well spring for an actual solo device. After all, about 70% of my climbing time is spent aidsoloing...maybe it is just time to bite the bullet...
Anybody want to buy some cats?
:)
-Kate.
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timpanogos
Jan 15, 2004, 10:44 PM
Post #43 of 47
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Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
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Nothing quite like that wonderful feeling of jumping up in those top steps and having it pull your pants down!
Dang I sure do cuss a lot when that happens!
That sp sure is appealing.
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mrhardgrit
Jan 19, 2004, 6:49 AM
Post #44 of 47
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Registered: Nov 28, 2001
Posts: 153
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I've used both a normal grigri, modified grigri and clove hitches for aid soloing. The modified grigri is definitely the way to go if you want to do a fair bit of free climbing (and accept the increased risks) - although it still isn't that good if there is too much weight of the hanging end of the rope on grigri. It does also seem to not catch as well when you just sit back and rest on it occasionally = a bit of a momentary fright!
The unmodified is safer and very practical for a high degree of aid, even if you are travelling fast. Just be even more careful about the weighting of the rope on the grigri and you'll have less probs with smooth running.
However, if you want to save all your money - go with the basics. The Clove Hitch. It's certainly cheaper than the solo aid!
Tom
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imnotclever
Aug 3, 2004, 8:33 AM
Post #45 of 47
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Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 10000
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Bump
(I've spent quite a while searching for this again) :x
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ricardol
Aug 3, 2004, 9:21 AM
Post #46 of 47
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
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damm .. alot of good info there ..
.. i still haven't put a keeper cord on my grigri .. gotta do that soon
-- ricardo
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imnotclever
Sep 2, 2004, 7:34 AM
Post #47 of 47
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Registered: Sep 8, 2003
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Well, I did the keeper. It works great. I copied Spike's method with one change.
Spike’s setup is shown on page 2 of this thread. He has a loop from the biner that attaches to the keeper in the GriGri. This I copied exactly.
He then has put a wad of duct tape on the bend of the biner to prevent the GriGri from moving to the spine. If you play with the GriGri on the spine of the belay master it is very easy to get the GriGri to torque itself against the biner, this could result in breaking the biner or the GriGri. I don’t know if this is what happened to Tom or if his was simply cross loaded. Spike’s duct tape is his way of ensuring that this doesn’t happen.
I attack this from a different way. I use it with the GriGri through the narrow end of the belay master. Doing this requires that you remove the plastic piece to get the GriGri to the narrow end, and then replace the plastic piece. Now you run the risk of dropping the plastic piece, so I took and added a keeper cord to the plastic piece that attaches to the keeper cord on the biner. (The keeper cord on the biner is attached at one end to the biner and the other end attaches the two other keeper cords, one for the GriGri and the other for the plastic piece.).
This way there is very little room for the GriGri to move on the biner. There is a lot of room for movement at the belay loop end of the biner, but this doesn’t matter because the pull on the GriGri will always put the belay loop where it needs to be, avoiding cross loading. Torque on the biner and GriGri is also avoided because there is no way for the GriGri to get around the bend of the biner.
It is not as much work as it sounds and it puts you back to relying on the plastic piece to prevent cross loading instead of relying on duct tape. Also you can flip it around if you want to use it for a munter hitch and not have the tape in the way.
Tom's story if you are unfimalliar
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