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newbieclimber
Mar 20, 2002, 5:17 AM
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"You guys who are belaying palm down...I gaurantee you can't get rope out fast enough for me to clip, but, know what, we're never going to find out, because you aren't going to be belaying me like that."
for your information if you belay with your palm up in gyms in the UK they will throw you out for being unsafe. and they have been climbing a lot longer than you punters in the US. i learned to belay palms up and then learned how to belay using two other methods and it is clearly safer to belay palms down. now that is how i belay.
as for feeding rope out for lead belaying palms down allows you to sling more rope through the belay device and faster because you can slide your hand further back along the rope as it is a more natural movement for your arm which also allows you to do it quicker. i can get three big arm lengths of rope out through an atc faster than someone using the overhand method can get two of their mini hauls out for the leader.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2002-03-19 21:36 ]
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 5:17 AM
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Quote:Arlen: I'm locked off and watching the climber, not my hands.
Why would you ever be watching your hands?
Quote:When I'm belaying a leader and controlling slack, I can hold both rope ends apart to lock the device while there's slack above--it's less tiring than with pal up. And with the palm down, I can pull the belay side behind my ass to create redundant friction...
But you don't need more friction. If the leader is taking a hard enough fall for the rope to slip through the device, then that is what it needs to do prevent dangerous loading of the gear, and, frankly, even with your hand behind your butt, it's going to do it anyway.
But, generally, you don't want that hand behind your butt when the leader's not moving. You want it somewhere where you have options. If you keep your brake hand (palm up, for heaven's sake) in front of you at about a 30-40 degree angle from the leader's side of the rope, then you can quickly yard out slack, lock off, or let the rope slide through your hand, as the situation dictates.
-Jay
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newbieclimber
Mar 20, 2002, 5:23 AM
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"But, generally, you don't want that hand behind your butt when the leader's not moving."
i disagree. when a leader is not moving the safest place for your hand to be is locked off. the problem is your palms up belay method. with palms down the lock off position and the start position for slinging rope through the belay device are the same. the dilemna you face is caused by palms up belaying and is one reason why it isnt as safe.
the bottom line is that in 99% of all falls the first reaction of the belayer is to clamp down with their guide hand on the climbers side of the rope. the reaction of locking off your brake invariably occurs after impact. if you are already locked off you dont have to worry about anything. if you arent locked off there is a fair chance you could lose control of the belay in a high impact leader fall.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2002-03-19 21:33 ]
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 5:34 AM
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Quote:"when a leader is not moving the safest place for your hand to be is locked off.
Oh, yeah? What if he's 15 feet above his last piece on a low-angle climb? If you're belaying me, you better not be figuratively picking your butt with your brake hand. I would expect you to be ready to instnatly reel in as much slack as possible if I fall. Your hand needs to be out in front of you to do that.
Quote:if you arent locked off there is a fair chance you could lose control of the belay in a high impact leader fall.
No there isn't. Unless the leader is safely hanging out at a rest stance, I keep my brake hand in a neutral position. I've caught hundreds of falls from this starting position and have never ever even come slightly close to losing control of the belay. On the contrary, this gives you more control of the belay. It allows you to be an active belayer who can vary the belay depending on the situation. Not every (nor even most) falls should be caught by just locking off the device.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-03-19 21:41 ]
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newbieclimber
Mar 20, 2002, 5:46 AM
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"What if he's 15 feet above his last piece on a low-angle climb?"
its the belayers duty to keep the climber off the deck not keep him from taking big falls. first most climbers would backpedal down the low angle crag and never get going very fast so the fall wouldnt be very severe. but lets say your climber saw a ghost in the crack and jumped back twenty feet. you have much more chance of dropping him to the ground trying to take in slack then if you just locked off.
also hauling in rope doesnt necessarily decrease impact forces. it actually can INCREASE the impact force.
"Not every (nor even most) falls should be caught by just locking off the device."
thats very dangerous advice. good luck to your climbers.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2002-03-19 21:52 ]
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slcliffdiver
Mar 20, 2002, 6:29 AM
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Hands down, I prefer palm down (pun intended). Demo of previous mentioned principle: "Pretend" you're trying to catch a fall tie off to something above your head take in slack grab the belay end palm up, belay hand next to rope running towards pretend climber about 8 inchs in front of the belay device (to simulate rope taken in from a lead fall while taking in rope). Losen your fingers a little bit and try to do a lock off behind you're butt quickly (Be careful and work up the speed slowly. You can hurt your fingers doing it!) . Try it several times how much do you have to loosen your fingers and how fast do you have to pull to feel it try to jerk out of your fingers or jerk out of your fingers completely? Now simulate or imagine the free end catching on or in something at about waist hight with some tension. Fun huh? Now try it palm down. Potential to burn your palm but if you're like me It's extremely hard to lose the rope this way.
Other considerations:
It seems a lot easier for people to screw up and grab the rope to the climber also with the belay hand with the palm up or get a good hold of the belay end and climbers end at the same time with the other hand. Especially when catching a fall while taking in rope.
It seems like it can be slightly faster taking in or letting out rope palm up the speed difference drops a lot after you've belayed palm down a while.
It does feel more natural palm up to start with but for me at least it didn't take very long for it to feel just as natural palm down (a day or two).
If you open your hand palm down the rope is more likely to fall out. I actually in general I find this in favor of palm down. I see too many palm up climbers with the rope just laying across there hand. Some people do this pretty much all the time. I think physicaly it is tempting to start doing this palm up.
That much said I do very infrequently belay palm up I know I have a reason or reasons I just can't recall why now. I find a need to belay with my left hand a lot more frequently than palm up.
Time to go sleep. (may continue a little bit later)
A parting thought. A belay that works 99.9% of the time is still lousy odds when you realize you have or will belay or be belayed thousands of times.
Peace
David
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tavs
Mar 20, 2002, 2:15 PM
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This has become a pointless discussion. Those of us who belay palm up (and, let me reiterate, I have seen MANY MANY more people belaying palm up than palm down, whether inside or outside, TR, sport or trad lead) and have been doing it for years are quite confident that our system works perfectly well. I feel no need to have my hand behind my ass to catch a fall or lock off (that's what your ATC is designed for--friction is supposed to do most of the work); I certainly would not want to be in this fully locked off, hand behind ass, when my leader was above his last piece, staring at a dicey move, and EITHER going to make a big move up or come flying off--in this case, I'd have my palm up hand partially locked off, primed to either reel in slack/lock off or pay out for the big move. As for feeding slack, put your hand palm up and extend it out sideways as far as your arm can go--gee, I can go just as far with my palm up as with it down, which means I can feed out just as much slack as with palm down.
In any case, I say--however you belay, as long as you can catch me in a whatever manner the situation requires (dynamic, maybe even letting a little more out so I miss cracking my skull on a roof, reeling in so I don't deck on that ledge, whatever), then you can belay me in the manner you are comfortable with.
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arlen
Mar 20, 2002, 5:10 PM
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Just to clarify what I said before: I don't recommend standing around with the belay side lock around your ass. I do use that method when I need to shift position (e.g. to try to get a better view of the climber) or use the rope hand temporarily. If I'm on stance, I'm locked off with the ropes in front of my waist.
And most of the trad climbs I wind up on bring the leader out of sight, sometimes out of earshot pretty quickly. A sharp tug could mean he or she needs slack, is on belay and taking, or is falling. I can live without instant slack in that case, and no partner of mine has complained yet.
Ultimately, there are too many what-ifs and in-contexts to pontificate about one technique or another, try as I may. I do what I think is consistent & safe and what I think I can keep up for long durations on belay.
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howitzer
Mar 20, 2002, 5:58 PM
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I don't really have anything to say about palm up palm down method, as long as we are all safe and alert out there! But I do have a question and a response: My question is how safe is it for someone to self-belay with a grigri? I was climbing 2 weeks ago nearby and saw a girl climbing up while belaying herself off her harness with her grigri, taking up slack as she climbed. I was going to offer her a belay in fear that this was not a safe thing for her to do, but she was just about at the top and came down before I could say anything. I am one of those folks who really won't say anything to another climber about being safe unless I am POSITIVE what they are doing is not right. I was unsure about that though, as I had never seen anyone else doing it. Just curious about that one. My other thing is in response to number7;
QUOTE:
The technique I don't get is when a belayer will bring the slack parallel with the live line (usually on top-rope). Does't that let the rope slide freely if the climber happened to fall? I know I don't trust that kind of
belay. I like it when my belayer brings the left hand to where the brake is, repositions the brake hand and repeats the process.
Ok.... I think this is a bit strange, considering this is how most people are taught to belay by folks who are experienced climbers. The point is to get the slack up as quick as possible, which cannot be done fast just by pulling the rope with both hands through the ATC while it is toward the locked off position, and to never take your brake hand off the rope... The need to bring the brake up to the live line is the ease with which the rope will come through, enabling you to pull in slack, and get it through the ATC and break hand, thus making a very efficient belayer. If you are worried about falling and the line feeding out and you hitting the ground, maybe you need to work on the reflexes and trust you have of your belayer That person should be watching you anticipating a fall at any time - and so they will break in an instant. The friction begins the milli-second that hand starts to come down. Maybe you'll lose an inch or so for the response time, but I'd rather have my belayer keep up with the slack, and not killing themselves trying to pull the rope through the belay device. Just my 2 cents there....
[ This Message was edited by: howitzer on 2002-03-20 10:03 ]
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 6:02 PM
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Quote:Newbieclimber: its the belayers duty to keep the climber off the deck not keep him from taking big falls.
I hate belayers who have that attitude. A belayers job only starts with keeping the leader off the deck.
You are totally ignorant, NEWBIEcliimber, and, apparently, unwilling to listen to people more knowledgeable than you. That makes you unsafe. Bye.
-Jay
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 6:28 PM
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Quote:Tavs wrote: I certainly would not want to be in this fully locked off, hand behind ass, when my leader was above his last piece, staring at a dicey move, and EITHER going to make a big move up or come flying off--in this case, I'd have my palm up hand partially locked off, primed to either reel in slack/lock off or pay out for the big move.
Exactly. Well said.
Quote:As for feeding slack, put your hand palm up and extend it out sideways as far as your arm can go...
Here's an even faster way to pay out a lot of slack: Bring your brake hand in front of you, palm up, so that the two strands of the rope are parallel. Grab the leader's side of the rope close to the ATC with your non-brake hand and pull out a full arm length of rope, letting the rope just slide through your brake hand -- don't move your brake hand at all. If you need to pay out even more slack, keep your brake hand right where it is, let go with your non-brake hand and just reach down and pull out another arm length of slack, and another, if necessary.
This method eliminates the need to shuffle your brake hand back and forth on the rope, and is, consequently, faster. Also, I find I can get a bit more rope out with each arm length, if I turn my non-brake hand over, and pull the rope out palm down.
-Jay
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newbieclimber
Mar 20, 2002, 6:37 PM
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"My question is how safe is it for someone to self-belay with a grigri?"
it depends. if you don't back up the gri-gri then youre trusting your life to one piece of equipment but thats still safer than free soloing. even if the gri-gri is working properly if you fall upside down the gri-gri might not catch you so most people will back up the gri-gri either by tying knots behind them in the rope every 10 feet to keep them from sliding all the way down the rope if something goes wrong--which is a pain--or by using a prusik knot above the gri gri which will clamp down if the gri-gri fails to catch you.
with a little experience you can also get the gri gri to self feed by slightly weighting the end of the rope. that way you dont have to stop to pull the slack through the gri-gri.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2002-03-20 10:41 ]
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newbieclimber
Mar 20, 2002, 6:44 PM
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"Here's an even faster way to pay out a lot of slack: Bring your brake hand in front of you, palm up, so that the two strands of the rope are parallel. Grab the leader's side of the rope close to the ATC with your non-brake hand and pull out a full arm length of rope, letting the rope just slide through your brake hand..."
of course if the leader falls at that instant they are going to hit the deck. the ropes are parallel and your break hand isnt clamped down on the rope.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2002-03-20 10:47 ]
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howitzer
Mar 20, 2002, 6:51 PM
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Isn't that the risk you take when you lead climb? You have to get slack to clip! And it's a pain in the ass when you don't get enough!
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 7:09 PM
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Quote: NEWBIEclimber: of course if the leader falls at that instant they are going to hit the deck. the ropes are parallel and your break hand isnt clamped down on the rope.
No, NEWBIEclimber, he decks if you're belaying him because you have your brake hand behind your butt where you can't pull the slack out of the system. If decking is an issue (as it well might be when the leader is clipping overhead), I have my hand in front of me with my elbow bent and the ropes running parallel. I can pull an armlength of slack out of the system and lock off the ATC before the leader hits the end of the rope.
I have saved one partner from decking using this belay technique. She fell while clipping the third bolt of a sport climb at full extension way over her head. I ran backward down a slope. Because my brake hand was in front of me with the ropes parallel, I was also able to pull out an arm's length of slack, while running, before locking off. I caught her 4 inches off the deck. If it weren't for that arm's length of rope I pulled out, she'd have decked.
NEWBIE, you need to post less and listen more (yeah, like that's going to happen).
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-03-20 11:23 ]
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slcliffdiver
Mar 20, 2002, 7:18 PM
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Response to tavs
Those of us who belay palm up (and, let me reiterate, I have seen MANY MANY more people belaying palm up than palm down, whether inside or outside, TR, sport or trad lead) and have been doing it for years are quite confident that our system works perfectly well.
I've climbed with many experienced people that have been that belayed palms up with no problem and haven't worried about it. Nobody really has ever argued to me that there a isn't a slightly more potential to mess up but that they do it safely. For me I just assume that there is a possibility to screw something up eventualy given enough iterations, hypothermia, exaustion, stupidity and I choose to do some things in a way that I find hardest to screw up.
I feel no need to have my hand behind my ass to catch a fall or lock off (that's what your ATC is designed for--friction is supposed to do most of the work);
Actually I was trying to demo worste case forces and feelings on your hand in a lead fall with a still rope, not suggest that people lock of behind there butt regularly. Also what can happen if someone screws up and jerks to hard. I could have been clearer.
I certainly would not want to be in this fully locked off, hand behind ass, when my leader was above his last piece, staring at a dicey move.
Never ment to suggest otherwise.
I can go just as far with my palm up as with it down, which means I can feed out just as much slack as with palm down.
I actual wrote you can feed out slightly more/faster palm up and to start with the speed difference is even larger. I'd rather be belayed on many leads by someone palm up than someone who hasn't learned to belay quickly palms down (takes longer to get fast ). I've never gotten quite as fast palms down as palms up and I've been doing mostly palms down for 16 years. I can feed out plenty quickly enough but it is slightly more tiring to feed fast palms down quickly. Actually I think one time when I switch is when my arm gets tired from belaying a lot someone who is constantly moving quickly.
In any case, I say--however you belay, as long as you can catch me in a whatever manner the situation requires (dynamic, maybe even letting a little more out so I miss cracking my skull on a roof, reeling in so I don't deck on that ledge, whatever), then you can belay me in the manner you are comfortable with.
I agree that the above is more important than palm up down. I don't stress over someone who belays well palm up. Real newbies can mess up either way. Kind of novice level seem to mess up palms up a bit more.
Peace
David
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tavs
Mar 20, 2002, 7:40 PM
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"I agree that the above is more important than palm up down. I don't stress over someone who belays well palm up. Real newbies can mess up either way. Kind of novice level seem to mess up palms up a bit more."
Yes! We can agree that what matters is that you have confidence in your belayer's ability. (Oh, and some of my points were meant in response to others, not just you.) I also can agree with that last line, which is why, as I said before, a lot of camps and groups like Outward Bound, etc, teach palm down.
Cheers!
[ This Message was edited by: tavs on 2002-03-20 11:41 ]
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hardcoredana
Mar 20, 2002, 8:12 PM
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I don't care how you belay, palm-up or palm-down. Enough people seem to have an opinion on that one. What I do have to offer is some terminology and clarification.
Brake hand: the hand that locks off the rope and is positioned on the side of the rope that piles up on the ground. This hand locks off the rope during a fall, hence the term "brake hand".
Guide hand: the hand that is positioned on the side of the rope that goes up to the climber. This hand guides the rope through the belay device smoothly and also helps you move your brake hand down the rope.
****Usually, the brake hand is the person's dominant hand, which means that most often the brake hand is the right hand (because more people are right-handed than left-handed). It is important to note that left handed people will usually use their left hand as a brake hand.
With those terms in mind, I have edited maculated's original descriptions for the different belaying methods. These methods do have terms, as you can see below.
Articulated method:
Quote:I learned to belay with the left hand [guide] on the climber's end, right hand [brake](palm up) on the rest of the rope, pull right hand up to meet left, left grab rope, right hand slide down and lock off.
Discrete Hand Switch method:
Quote:people there were belaying right[brake] hand palm down, pulling rope with left [guide] hand from climber's side of ATC, and extending right[brake], then moving left [guide] hand above and pulling, switching right [brake] hand close to lock off ATC on right.
I do have one revision to maculated's description. For the discrete method (and for the articulated, for that matter), your right hand should never leave the rope. In short, you don't switch your brake hand and guide hand, rather, you grab the rope above your brake hand with your guide hand , and then slide your brake hand down the rope. This technique allows you to move your brake hand down the rope without removing it from said rope.
You can do either method palm-up or palm-down, but in terms of comfort, the articulated method lends itself to a palm-up hand position, and the discrete method lends itself to a palm-down hand position.
I don't care whether you belay palm-up or palm-down. In the end, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that your brake hand never leaves the rope during a belay.
[ This Message was edited by: hardcoredana on 2002-03-20 12:28 ]
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hardcoredana
Mar 20, 2002, 8:24 PM
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I'm concerned that no one has responded to this one:
Quote:Climber falls, belayer is at fault. A gri-gri can be used just as any other belay device if the belayer is paying attention!I believe that even if the rope is threaded backwards it can still be used as a belay device (but DON'T let go)
Sorry, buddy, but you're wrong. Threading a gri-gri backwards is a sure-fire way to drop your climber, even if you try to hold onto the rope. A backwards-threaded gri-gri provides minimal friction on the rope. Most likely, all you will get is one damn fine rope burn and a climber who is about to land on your head.
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dustinap
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Mar 20, 2002, 9:08 PM
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I know I'll propbably get flamed for this, but I usually don't match both hands on the rope, leaving the rope up, and not locked off. I usually will keep the rope locked and slide my hand either up or down the rope to pull slack, that way I'm always locked off. My hand is still gripped onto the rope.
most people don't teach belaying this way, and I don't know if I'd teach a new belayer this way, but to me it seems much safer and better, and also much easier when you supinate your hand such as I do, or palm up, fingers down.
BTW, my range of movement is greater when my palm up, supinated, then it is palm down, pronated. I tested it myself, but maybe it's just I'm built weird.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-03-20 13:10 ]
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newbieclimber
Mar 20, 2002, 9:46 PM
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"Sorry, buddy, but you're wrong. Threading a gri-gri backwards is a sure-fire way to drop your climber, even if you try to hold onto the rope."
his point was that even if the cams of the gri-gri malfunction and do not engage the bending of the rope as it runs through the gri-gri and down to the locked off belay hand provides enough friction for you to hold a climber. therefore if the climber falls it is the belayers fault. i agree with him.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2002-03-20 13:54 ]
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newbieclimber
Mar 20, 2002, 9:53 PM
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"I have saved one partner from decking using this belay technique. She fell while clipping the third bolt of a sport climb at full extension way over her head. I ran backward down a slope. Because my brake hand was in front of me with the ropes parallel, I was also able to pull out an arm's length of slack, while running, before locking off."
there is nothing preventing someone who is belaying palms down from running and taking in rope. the situation you describe is a special one and all belayers and climbers should discuss possible situations like that and what to do before getting on the climb. that way when it happens there is no need to think you are ready and just react according to your plan.
by the way how do you know you couldnt have gotten one step further but because you were trying to take in rope it slowed you down? with the result being you increased the chances of messing up and dropping your climber as you took rope in yet with no added benefit.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2002-03-20 14:02 ]
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Dana: "Sorry, buddy, but you're wrong. Threading a gri-gri backwards is a sure-fire way to drop your climber, even if you try to hold onto the rope."Quote:
Newbie: his point was that even if the cams of the gri-gri malfunction and do not engage the bending of the rope as it runs through the gri-gri and down to the locked off belay hand provides enough friction for you to hold a climber. therefore if the climber falls it is the belayers fault. i agree with him.
Dana got the point. You, Newbie, didn't get Dana's (big surprise).
If you thread the gri-gri backwards there will not be enough friction to catch a hard fall by locking off. A gri-gri without a cam does not work like an ATC. Read (sure!) my two posts from about a week ago on this topic.
-Jay
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 10:13 PM
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Quote:"how do you know you couldnt have gotten one step further but because you were trying to take in rope it slowed you down?
Uh, because moving my arm doesn't slow down my legs?
-Jay
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