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darth_gaydar


Aug 24, 2004, 5:10 PM
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I like it for TR soloing.


kalcario


Aug 24, 2004, 5:24 PM
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*This is a silly assertion.

Most "valley" and/or "trad" climbers would laugh at you if you brought a grigri to a trad gear climb.

The grigri is the best sport climbing belay device ever made.

Anybody that tries to make a similiar claim about it in regards to trad climbs is delusional. *

I have *forgotten* more trad climbing in Yosemite, than you will ever do.

Why, if the grigri is used for dicey aid on walls, would it not be good enough for A0 pro on free routes?


alpnclmbr1


Aug 24, 2004, 5:58 PM
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In reply to:
Most "valley" and/or "trad" climbers would laugh at you if you brought a grigri to a trad gear climb.

Would you agree that this is a fair statement or not? You know it is, and if you dance around this one then you are taking lessons in gwb speech.


In reply to:
I have *forgotten* more trad climbing in Yosemite, than you will ever do.

Considering that you stopped climbing climbing trad ten years ago, or more, that doesn't surprise me at all.


kalcario


Aug 24, 2004, 6:08 PM
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*Would you agree that this is a fair statement or not? You know it is, and if you dance around this one then you are taking lessons in gwb speech*

Of course it's stupid! You don't take a grigri to Snake Dike, because you don't want the extra weight, but to suppose that one increases risk when the pro is as excellent as it is in Yosemite is ill informed at best. You think cams are gonna rip out of Outer Limits because you're using a grigri?


alpnclmbr1


Aug 24, 2004, 6:21 PM
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You think cams are gonna rip out of Outer Limits because you're using a grigri?

No.

As far as I am concerned the bulk and weight are more of an issue then the increased impact forces. Needing to carry an additional rap device would be as well.


strangeday


Aug 24, 2004, 6:48 PM
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I have used them in the gym, and have just bought one for top rope use. I do however like the new trango cinch. very similar design and fewer moving parts, or so I have been told. The one problem that I think many people have with lead belaying with the grigri is that if you use 11mm rope, the feed is slow. A friend said that using a 10.2mm rope works better for lead. My main problem with them is, I want to know that my belayer can pay out as fast as I need, and not leave me pumped and cursing while they are fumbling with the device. Also, an tube slot type device has no moving parts, Is waaaay cheaper, and forces the belayer to pay attention with more care than I feel a grigri does.If you are going to be doing any rock climbing at all, where rope and belaying is involved, I feel that you should know how to use ALL kinds of belays (ATC, auto block, munter hitch, etc...)

On one other note, after a friend was finished on a top rope in josh, one that they had been using all day, when he opened the grigri up, there was dirt all up inside it. :shock: Someone had left it laying on the ground or something, but somehow it got full of dirt, and running your rope through that is like glueing sandpaper to your devices cam.....

Sooooo, in my opinion:

GriGri= top rope & gym, belaying the second or for cleaning or routesetting

for lead I will take my trango jaws, and a nice leather glove


paulraphael


Aug 25, 2004, 7:40 AM
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In reply to:
Nope, in neither their catalog nor in the literature that comes with the grigri do they say that, they say they are not to be used for "mountaineering or adventure climbing", which is quite a bit different from telling you not to use them for trad routes, many of which are just as well or better protected than sport climbs

actually "adventure climbing" is another term for "trad climbing." especially on the websites of euro companies.


elsinore


Aug 25, 2004, 6:42 PM
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I would agree that it is very much possible to give a dynamic belay using a gri-gri. In either of these situations a dynamic belay would be acheived by giving the climber a bit of a slack belay; meaning you would give them an arms length or half an arms lenght of slack. (Consideirng this is a safe alternative, and in a lot of situations is.)
But who wants to haul a gri-gri up a multi-pitch anyway? Unless its a sport route of course....


climb_plastic


Aug 25, 2004, 7:43 PM
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I'm pretty sure that giving slack makes it worse. More slack = longer fall = more shock.

The dynamic belay is when you make a catch dynamically (in motion) so that it doesn't shock the system as much. The belayer can do that simply by relaxing and not tensing up so much when the climber falls making the catch softly and allowing yourself to get pulled up rather than fighting the upward pull. You can do that with both the gri-gri or the atc.


sarcat


Aug 26, 2004, 6:38 AM
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In reply to:
You can't get rid of it?

As in I still want to hang on to it.


paulraphael


Aug 26, 2004, 7:39 AM
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In reply to:
I would agree that it is very much possible to give a dynamic belay using a gri-gri. In either of these situations a dynamic belay would be acheived by giving the climber a bit of a slack belay; meaning you would give them an arms length or half an arms lenght of slack. (Consideirng this is a safe alternative, and in a lot of situations is.)
But who wants to haul a gri-gri up a multi-pitch anyway? Unless its a sport route of course....

You're describing a way to create a longer, but equally static fall.
Anyone doing this needs to hit the physics textbooks before someone hits the deck.


moondog


Aug 26, 2004, 8:03 AM
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In reply to:
You're describing a way to create a longer, but equally static fall.
Anyone doing this needs to hit the physics textbooks before someone hits the deck.

Amen. Funny how this kinda stuff gets around. I went climbing with a guy last year who was taught by his friends to do this (maintain unnecessary slack) to create a "dynamic" belay. I asked him what the reasoning was and he couldn't give an answer. Seems some folks tend to accept uncritically what (self-declared) "more experienced" climbers tell them. Dangerous habit.


kalcario


Aug 26, 2004, 8:43 AM
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*Amen. Funny how this kinda stuff gets around. I went climbing with a guy last year who was taught by his friends to do this (maintain unnecessary slack) to create a "dynamic" belay. I asked him what the reasoning was and he couldn't give an answer. Seems some folks tend to accept uncritically what (self-declared) "more experienced" climbers tell them. Dangerous habit.*

It depends on the situation, sometimes it is safer to belay with more slack. When it's overhanging, you belay with a little more slack to avoid swinging back into the wall - given, of course, you're far enough off the deck that you're not gonna hit the ground. The really dangerous habit is to pull in rope when he's falling, or have no slack at all (unless, of course, he's in danger of hitting the ground). Each situation has to be judged differently, and to accept uncritically the blanket assertion that belaying with extra slack is a "dangerous habit" isn't real smart either.


paulraphael


Aug 26, 2004, 8:51 AM
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In reply to:
Amen. Funny how this kinda stuff gets around. I went climbing with a guy last year who was taught by his friends to do this (maintain unnecessary slack) to create a "dynamic" belay. I asked him what the reasoning was and he couldn't give an answer. Seems some folks tend to accept uncritically what (self-declared) "more experienced" climbers tell them. Dangerous habit.

I've also seen someone teaching a belayer to take up slack during a fall and to drop their bodyweight onto the rope to create a "dynamic" belay. This might be a good technique when the climber's in danger of decking, but it's the oposite of adding dynamics.

Your point about about accepting any advice uncritically needs to be repeated. even if the self-declared experienced climber IS experienced, you don't know if their long experience is the product of knowing what they're doing or just chance.

I survived my first many years of climbing the old fashioned way: dumb luck. I don't recommend this approach to anyone. I've learned more about climbing safely in the last couple of years than i did in the previous ten, simply because I finally realized everything i knew was out of date, unresearched, and based on mimicking friends who themselves didn't know anything. The good news is that now there are so many good sources of good information. Places like this can be a starting point, at least to get pointed in the direction of solid sources. No one should trust me or anyone else here on how to use a gri gri, or how not to ... but I would hope some arguments that come out of this that get people confirming ideas for themselves with solid sources: manufacturer's data, test results conducted by engineers, the amga, the uiaa, and rescue organizations, and on top of that, field experience of people you trust.


elsinore


Aug 26, 2004, 8:59 AM
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When giving a slack belay, you obviously need to be paying attention (reguardless of your knowledge of physics) to your partner with respect to how far they are off of ledges or the deck, this is why in my previous post I mentioned it is not always a safe alternative. I think the idea of allowing a little bit more slack in the system is that you will have more rope out to absorb the shock, meanig you will have more rope in the system, thus more strech of the rope. I suppose you could argue that falling that much further creates more force anyway.... But in my experience this technique has always provided safe, soft catches. Im not exactly talking about giving people an extra 15 feet of slack...usually an additional arms length of slack will give you another 5 ft. or so when you fall...The biggest advantage of being caught with this type of a belay is that you are much less apt to pendulum directly into the rock, smashing your heels, ankels or knees.


paulraphael


Aug 26, 2004, 9:03 AM
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In reply to:
I think the idea of allowing a little bit more slack in the system is that you will have more rope out to absorb the shock, meanig you will have more rope in the system, thus more strech of the rope. I suppose you could argue that falling that much further creates more force anyway.... But in my experience this technique has always provided safe, soft catches. Im not exactly talking about giving people an extra 15 feet of slack...usually an additional arms length of slack will give you another 5 ft. or so when you fall...The biggest advantage of being caught with this type of a belay is that you are much less apt to pendulum directly into the rock, smashing your heels, ankels or knees.


paulraphael


Aug 26, 2004, 9:10 AM
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I think the idea of allowing a little bit more slack in the system is that you will have more rope out to absorb the shock, meanig you will have more rope in the system, thus more strech of the rope. I suppose you could argue that falling that much further creates more force anyway.... But in my experience this technique has always provided safe, soft catches. Im not exactly talking about giving people an extra 15 feet of slack...usually an additional arms length of slack will give you another 5 ft. or so when you fall...The biggest advantage of being caught with this type of a belay is that you are much less apt to pendulum directly into the rock, smashing your heels, ankels or knees.

Sorry, but this is a complete and dangerous misunderstanding of how to protect a leader from penduluming into the rock. A slack belay increases the fall distance in proportion to the amount of extra rope out, so the fall factor, and also the impact forces, stay the same. So you let your leader fall farther, with absolutely no benefit in terms of reducing impact forces or slowing a swing.

The correct way to deal with this situation is to have as little slack in the system as possible (which is always the case) and to provide a true dynamic belay. This can be done by jumping at the moment of impact (if you're on a long enough leash and don't have a roof over your head) or by allowing a couple of feet of rope to slip through your belay device (which is providing friction all the while, and is therefore softening the catch). Both techniques require some practice. Most people find jumping easier to pull off than controlling rope slippage. But both have their place.


moondog


Aug 26, 2004, 9:17 AM
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Sorry, i did not mean to give the impression that extra slack is not a good technique for certain situations. The "dangerous habit" bit was meant to refer to uncritical acceptance of advice, not belay technique (though the writing could have been clearer).

The guy I referred to in my previous post had taken up the habit of always feeding unnecessary slack in order to give a "dynamic belay". His explanation had something to do with more rope out = more stretch = softer catch or something (memory hazy on his exact theory, but that's the rough version).


Partner cracklover


Aug 26, 2004, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
Why, if the grigri is used for dicey aid on walls, would it not be good enough for A0 pro on free routes?

This question has been adequately answered already.

In reply to:
*Would you agree that this is a fair statement or not? You know it is, and if you dance around this one then you are taking lessons in gwb speech*

Of course it's stupid! You don't take a grigri to Snake Dike, because you don't want the extra weight, but to suppose that one increases risk when the pro is as excellent as it is in Yosemite is ill informed at best. You think cams are gonna rip out of Outer Limits because you're using a grigri?

Snake Dike? That's hardly a fair example, given how much is bolt protected. And I haven't done Outer Limits, but for the sake of this conversation, big splitter cracks like that, and those at IC may as well be considered sport climbs, for all the questions about hard falls on poor gear.

So instead, how about a typical day of trad climbing at any of the areas with crack protected face climbs, like the Gunks, Cannon, Cathedral, LCC, and even parts of J-Tree or Yosemite. Many of the climbs at these areas will require gear placements like small Aliens, Lowe Balls, and RPs. All perfect good gear when well placed, but capable of failing at relatively low loads. Hell, a big copperhead may be more bomber than some of these "trad" pieces. No question that screamers have their place on these climbs, but so do dynamic belay devices. So that speaks for crack-protected face climbs. Now the same arguement holds true in places with varied rock quality, or with very thin cracks. In fact... most trad climbing areas.

GO


davidji


Aug 26, 2004, 9:53 AM
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A slack belay increases the fall distance in proportion to the amount of extra rope out,
True.

In reply to:
so the fall factor, and also the impact forces, stay the same.
That's only true in the fall factor=1 case. If the ff would be higher (without the extra slack), than the extra slack will decrease it. If it would be lower, than the extra slack will increase it.

I'd leave the math as an exercise for the reader, but I have a feeling people will just argue without actually doing it, so I provided a little math below.

David


The math:
Low FF case: climber is 30m high, 30m or rope is out, and he's 10m above his last pro. He falls 20m on 30m of rope for a ff of 20m/30m=.67.

Now lets add 5m slack. I realize that's an absurd amount, but it illustrates the trend. So the climber is still 30m up, 10m past his last pro, but with 35m rope out. So he falls 25m on 35m rope, for a ff of 25m/35m=.71. So the fall factor increased due to the extra slack.

High ff case:
Climber is 10m above the belay, 10m of rope out, falls 20m on 10m of rope for a factor 2 fall.

Now lets add 5m slack. Climber falls 25m on 15m rope for a ff of 25m/15m=1.7, and a decrease in forces (unless the climber hits something in those 5 extra meters).


Partner cracklover


Aug 26, 2004, 10:46 AM
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Davidji: you're right about the FF slightly increasing/decreasing. That's (mostly) a moot point though, as the relative change in FF is generally very small. What's *not* a moot point though, is that just leaving extra slack in the system does not work to either provide a softer catch or to prevent a hard swing into the wall. To do these things you need to do the technique correctly. The basic idea of how to provide a dynamic belay (as explained earlier in the thread) is to jump or let some rope move through the device in a controlled manner just as the force comes onto the device.

I won't try to add anything to these basic descriptions, because, frankly, I'm not all that good at it. It requires practice to do well. But I will add that clearly one of the two techniques is not safe to do with a gri-gri (letting rope slip), and the other technique (jumping) is not always possible on a multi-pitch climb.

GO


elsinore


Aug 26, 2004, 10:46 AM
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Sorry, but this is a complete and dangerous misunderstanding of how to protect a leader from penduluming into the rock.
The correct way to deal with this situation is to have as little slack in the system as possible (which is always the case) and to provide a true dynamic belay.

There is a good chance I am just not doing an excelent job of explaining this technique.. but Giving slack in some situations is absolutly helpful and by no means a complete and dangerous misunderstanding of protecting the leader. Again, you obviously do not want tons of slack payed out to whoever is climbing, and I agree that jumping is an excelent way of providing a dynamic belay and preventing a pendulum. But, by giving a bit of slack you will prevent a pendilum. It seems to me that whenever I climb with an inexpereinced belayer 9 out of 10 times I am being smashed into the rock duing a lead fall beaucse there is 0 slack in the system, this is particularly evident in a short fall situation, like when you take a fall with the pro at you knees. Also on any type of steep terrein (which is what im climbing most of the time). In general this techniqe should be designated to vertical and overhanging sport routes where the slack will not effect the climber from nailing something like a feature or the deck during the fall, which is what I was refering to. I most likely did not state this in my last post, sorry. I certianly dont reccomend this type of belay for less than vertical gear routes, or any situation where you cannot see the climber from the belay, or anything else other than steep or vertical sport routes... Really, Im not a bumbly droping folks left and right.... Im just sick of getting terrible catches.


davidji


Aug 26, 2004, 10:49 AM
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In reply to:
Davidji: you're right about the FF slightly increasing/decreasing. That's (mostly) a moot point though, as the relative change in FF is generally very small.
I agree that it isn't a great way to change FF. I was just taking issue with the math, not chiming in on the how-to-do-a-dynamic-belay topic. While the 1.7ff fall in the last example is much better than the 2.0, that doesn't seem like the most practical way to reduce falling forces. Especially when you consider that most of the time it will increase falling forces.


jt512


Aug 26, 2004, 10:55 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the idea of allowing a little bit more slack in the system is that you will have more rope out to absorb the shock, meanig you will have more rope in the system, thus more strech of the rope. I suppose you could argue that falling that much further creates more force anyway.... But in my experience this technique has always provided safe, soft catches. Im not exactly talking about giving people an extra 15 feet of slack...usually an additional arms length of slack will give you another 5 ft. or so when you fall...The biggest advantage of being caught with this type of a belay is that you are much less apt to pendulum directly into the rock, smashing your heels, ankels or knees.

Sorry, but this is a complete and dangerous misunderstanding of how to protect a leader from penduluming into the rock. A slack belay increases the fall distance in proportion to the amount of extra rope out, so the fall factor, and also the impact forces, stay the same. So you let your leader fall farther, with absolutely no benefit in terms of reducing impact forces or slowing a swing.

First of all, adding slack does not keep the fall factor constant; it moves the fall factor closer to 1. For a typical, less-than-factor-1 fall, adding slack increases the fall factor. Nonetheless, slack usually reduces the swing into the wall. If the route is overhanging, slack puts the climber further away from the wall. Additionally, even if the route is vertical, you tend to fall away from the wall. If there is insufficient slack in the rope, you come onto tension early in the fall, and you get pulled into the wall in an arc with a small radius, resulting in a hard hit. Having a few feet of slack in the rope keeps this from happening. Like everyone has said, you also have to take the terrain into account; sometimes the terrain dictates that you keep as little slack in the rope as possible.

In reply to:
The correct way to deal with this situation is to have as little slack in the system as possible (which is always the case) and to provide a true dynamic belay. This can be done by jumping at the moment of impact (if you're on a long enough leash and don't have a roof over your head) or by allowing a couple of feet of rope to slip through your belay device (which is providing friction all the while, and is therefore softening the catch). Both techniques require some practice. Most people find jumping easier to pull off than controlling rope slippage. But both have their place.

Dynamic belaying is important, but when the landing zone is obstacle free and the route is not a slab, slack is important, too. In fact, there are situations in which slack is more important than dynamic belaying. For instance, when the leader has clipped pro above a bulge and climbed past the pro. In this case, the belayer must keep enough slack in the rope so that he drops the leader into clean air below the bulge. Otherwise, the leader better have good dental insurance.

Another example is when the leader has climbed above a bulge, but his last pro is beneath the bulge. Here, if insufficient slack is in the system, you have an exaggerated version of the situation I described in my first paragraph. The leader will be pulled into the wall with fearsome angular momentum.

-Jay


alpnclmbr1


Aug 26, 2004, 11:06 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the idea of allowing a little bit more slack in the system is that you will have more rope out to absorb the shock, meanig you will have more rope in the system, thus more strech of the rope. I suppose you could argue that falling that much further creates more force anyway.... But in my experience this technique has always provided safe, soft catches. Im not exactly talking about giving people an extra 15 feet of slack...usually an additional arms length of slack will give you another 5 ft. or so when you fall...The biggest advantage of being caught with this type of a belay is that you are much less apt to pendulum directly into the rock, smashing your heels, ankels or knees.

Sorry, but this is a complete and dangerous misunderstanding of how to protect a leader from penduluming into the rock. A slack belay increases the fall distance in proportion to the amount of extra rope out, so the fall factor, and also the impact forces, stay the same. So you let your leader fall farther, with absolutely no benefit in terms of reducing impact forces or slowing a swing.

The correct way to deal with this situation is to have as little slack in the system as possible (which is always the case) and to provide a true dynamic belay. This can be done by jumping at the moment of impact (if you're on a long enough leash and don't have a roof over your head) or by allowing a couple of feet of rope to slip through your belay device (which is providing friction all the while, and is therefore softening the catch). Both techniques require some practice. Most people find jumping easier to pull off than controlling rope slippage. But both have their place.

I have to pretty much go with elsinore on this one. On steep climbs where swinging into the wall is a concern. You do want to keep some slack in the system, and then, you do want to do a dynamic belay.

The initial drop(freefall) allows you to clear more room for the swing, ie the lower the climber is, the farther away from the rock when you start the dynamic catch/swing.

If there is absolutely no slack in the system, your dynamic jump is not going to go anywhere, and the falling climber is going to crater.

If the leader is ten feet above a bolt, slack becomes less of an issue.

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