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strider


Oct 7, 2004, 12:25 AM
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Why does America suck sooooo much...
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...when it comes to the climbing gear market? Do BD, Met, Trango, etc.. have such a strangle hold on us that we can not import more diverse Euro equipment? I took a tour through Barrabes tonight and found an amazing array of equipment that we have never seen or even dreamt about before. Here are a few examples:

From Kong:
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=390&pf_id=2882&opt=m
And from Cassin:
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=543&pf_id=4339&opt=
These are shock absorbers. For the solo aid climber there are genius. You could set this up at your lower belay as a shock absorber (of course you want to back it up with...lets say...two shoulder-length slings...should be plently strong back-up) so that when you have a wicked fall you can lessen the impact. Also re-usable. No more paying $30 for screamers before a climb.

Also from Kong for the aid climber:
Ascenders @ $40 each ($10 less than Petzl and very similar)
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=392&pf_id=2568&opt=m
The infamous Block-Roll Wall hauler at a whopping $113
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=392&pf_id=2574&opt=m
Various pulleys that range from $12-$126
Kong also does a line of cams...WHO KNEW?!?
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=394&pf_id=7150&opt=m
...and nutz...
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=393&pf_id=7220&opt=m
...and not only nutz. WTF is this??????
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=389&pf_id=2760&opt=m
a $20 quick draw with the weirdest twist I have seen yet.

So how about this Wall Hammer that is a cross between the BD and OP hammer and only costs $65
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=1102&pf_id=11752&opt=m
And this Kong rigging plate is ONLY $18.82!! How much is the Petzl...$42!!!!
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=1102&pf_id=12498&opt=m

And it's not only Kong. Fixe has some stuff going on. Check this wall hauler out. it is only $59!!...
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=71&pf_id=3277&opt=

So what is the deal?? Why don't we have any of this cool stuff over here?

Just Curious
-n


pheenixx


Oct 7, 2004, 12:50 AM
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Congradulations -- it looks like your've discovered.... barrabes.com

To answer the title on this FORUM: Why does America suck sooooo much...

B.U.S.H.


jon06


Oct 7, 2004, 1:54 AM
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Seriously.

I've spent hours apon hours searching the web for rock climbing gear and have never seen most of the stuff off of that page. The wall haulers and shock absorbing lanyard plate dohicky looked pretty kick ass.

But I agree about the the "Frog" thing. What the hell is it?

I would love to be able to get my hands on some of that gear without a translator and conversion table.


maxdacat


Oct 7, 2004, 1:59 AM
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But I agree about the the "Frog" thing. What the hell is it?

They are draws that are easier to clip and give you a bit of extra reach. Never used 'em but they look wierd.


norushnomore


Oct 7, 2004, 2:23 AM
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If you like what you see just buy it.

I have bought from them a few times and stuff showed up in my office few days later just as it was bought from mgear or likes.

For what you care there is no diff if there is a us disributor or not.


Partner tisar


Oct 7, 2004, 3:56 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
But I agree about the the "Frog" thing. What the hell is it?

They are draws that are easier to clip and give you a bit of extra reach. Never used 'em but they look wierd.

The FROG:
http://www.barrabes.com/.../medium/kongfrog.jpg

Got a grip on one once. The principle is to keep the "gate" open untill the it's pushed against a bold whereafter it automaticly locks up. Makes it easier to clip reachy stuff. It's the last manufactured version of "panic draws" as far as I know.

There was a big discussion on it in a german climbers forum as they found out it becomes unclipped under certain circumstances (rope gets tangled around upper "biner" and pushes both of the release buttons or such). I think the purpose is truly in aid-climbing and the draw should be replaced by a normal one as quick as possible.

- Daniel


viciado


Oct 7, 2004, 4:52 AM
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1) Barrabes is great. I have ordered from them both in Portugal and the US. With larger orders you can save big on shipping!

2) I've used frogs before, but found that they are a bit limited and prefer quickdraws.

The frogs don't work well with large "tige" (glue-in) bolts since the opening is limited to what you see. In the Lisbon area, you find a lot of glue ins due to the sea exposure.

On hangers, we have had some problems with them not locking completely if they are not placed just right. PLUS the mechanism is shorter than a biner. I find that outweighs the reach factor.

I have never seen the rope actually open the things though, but can understand how it COULD happen if the rope somehow got wrapped around the top portion... it could push/pull the two little "fingers" you see in the foto above and thus open the double gate. Having said that, I have not been able to open a frog if weighted.

Use 'em if you like 'em...


rkhali


Oct 7, 2004, 5:06 AM
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The FROG:
http://www.barrabes.com/.../medium/kongfrog.jpg

I have one which I got from Canada, and I use it all the time. When you're pumped and you need to make that clip quickly, or you're just too chicken to move off that bomber hold and the bolt is just a few inches out of reach.
It's great, but relatively heavy so I only carry one....
My magic quickdraw I call it, it helps mentally :wink:

Cheers,
Raymond


bluetrout


Oct 7, 2004, 5:57 AM
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Those frog things are big, bulky and heavy.


Partner euroford


Oct 7, 2004, 5:57 AM
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yup. kong makes some cool stuff, most of it is typical, but some stuff nobody else makes and its highly desirable. all the big wall guys lust after the wall hauler. you don't need a translator, you can switch the language to english and pick several currencies, they take credit cards, so go for it.


anykineclimb


Oct 7, 2004, 6:29 AM
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Kong and Cassin makes some great stuff.

Used to sell it a the shop I worked at. sold tons of it.


leinosaur


Oct 7, 2004, 6:49 AM
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sucking's underrated - what if your significant other didn't suck?


fitzontherocks


Oct 7, 2004, 7:07 AM
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Something happened with Barrabes and the EC or with their competitors or something. I bought some Boreal Ninjas for my young daughter about 2-3 years ago. $20! Add in $10 for shipping, and it was still half what I would have paid in the U.S. of A. And they're great kid's shoes. Now, the same shoe has gone back up to $60 or 70. I though I remember hearing about some dispute either with the EC or with competitors. Anybody know? Since Barrabes is Spanish (though they now have a U.S. site and I think a store in SF?), I thought maybe just Spanish product (like Boreals) were cheaper than those from other countries. Anyone?


dingus


Oct 7, 2004, 7:22 AM
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Something happened with Barrabes and the EC or with their competitors or something. I bought some Boreal Ninjas for my young daughter about 2-3 years ago. $20! Add in $10 for shipping, and it was still half what I would have paid in the U.S. of A.

Don't know about the EC thing but Boreal-USA went out of business a couple of years ago and the shoes were ultra cheap for a while. Golds for 60 bucks, etc. Wish Ida bought more cause no other climbing shoe seems to fit my duck feet like those spanish lasts.

DMT


itakealot


Oct 7, 2004, 7:37 AM
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Re: Why does America suck sooooo much

HUH? WTF does this have to do with gear?

Why don't you move to Iraq if the U.S. of A sucks?


anykineclimb


Oct 7, 2004, 7:41 AM
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I know a few years ago Black Diamond had a fit because Americans could buy gear from MEC cheaper than they could in the US. So now MEC cannot ship certain items into the US. Which is now just a great excuse for a road trip to Canada!

Another reasoning behind why we don't see some of this gear is simple marketing.

Theres tons of products not available in the US and vise versa
Granted some of this gear is availnle at a few US retailer but for the most part is goes unnoticed. Could be that they(Cassin, Kong..) make enough money without the US, so why bother. Other companies, like Luckey, partners up with American companies (Metolius) to sell it as their gear.


jstp


Oct 7, 2004, 7:42 AM
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Hate to burst you bubble buddy, but most of these products are available in the US, if not the exact one, the something very very similar.

The first one is an absorber designed for via ferrata, which incedentally europe has a lot more of than the US. you can get several different and higher tech versions through petzl. though you have to special order because they are not common here; because we do not have much via ferrata. industrial supply companies also have similar more heavy duty items. the kind of absorber pictured here works sort of like an atc and munter combined. the result is a device that can absorb a shock load, but only safely once. Petzl states about its similar products that it can be used more than once only if there are no other options: like you are high up on a via ferrata and only have one device. after that the cord needs replacing. So repeated use for aid soloing could be very bad and risky.

The second item at is very similar to a product pika used to make. It is similar to the first but is designed to work with flat webbing. don't know if it still availible from pika, but it had similar limitations and obviously the fact that it is may no longer be available says something....

The kong ascenders at look pretty much identical to the older style petzl ascenders. thus, i suspect the price difference. i also have been underwhelmed with kong's quality after using many of their 'biners and seeing their cams.

Can't speak to the Kong wall hauler, but to be honest if the quality is there it looks pretty cool.

The new kong nuts and cams are both rock empire manufacture it appears, nothing special. Omega pacific, ABC, and a variety of other gear companies all contract out their work to the same facilities, thus the proliferation of gear with different labels that all looks the same.... Different label doesn't mean new or different gear.

The frog you can get in the states at Kong dealers, though it doesn't seem to be catching on. And if the germans have found it to pop off of bolts i doubt it will.

The Fixe wallhauler is identical to the old Rock Exotica one unless that picture is misleading. The tooling looks exactly the same! Only anodized a different color. Fixe must have bought the old design from Petzl once they started to make their pro- and mini-traxion devices. If you love the old wallhauler or are hell bent on having one get one on ebay, way cheaper. Unless of course it is those clashingly wonderful new colors that drew your eye...

If you want to see some truly off the wall euro gear :shock: i suggest you look up Ushuba, Altai, and Ural titanium gear try this ( http://stores.ebay.com/URALSPORT ). They make a belay/hauling/pulley/ascender/whatever device that looks like a mideval torture tool (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50814&item=7104707573 ), pitons so small it makes my cower and a variety of figure eight derived (i think... hope) descenders that look like something Gary Larson would draw in a surgeons hands. These items can also be found on eBay, or cruise the web.

And if someone could tell me how to make links work in these posts, that would be awesome. Sorry for being too dumb to include them. :oops:


jstp


Oct 7, 2004, 7:52 AM
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I had to add this as well: Buying gear from your local gear shops supports local economies, local buissiness, local climbing, local community and is generally a more concientious way of getting gear than doing essentiailly what every big corportation goes - outsource. We all have heard the impacts of this. Buying from an out of country, or out of state online retailer is often cheaper, but when the difference is not much i really urge you to buy from local shops to prevent them from dissapearing, and you from being frustrated because you cannot fondle all the latest gear, or get theat 4.5 camalot for your new project before someone else snags it. Local gear shops struggle enough without you sending your cash out of the country (which harms you in the long run anyway, if you want to get really economically tech wenie about it), and local shops are often willing to cut you a deal to get your business. I know the shop i work in does, and most other LOCAL shops do, not the chain stores, or corporate money makers (Yosemite Mountain Shop maybee....). Support your local economies and climbing scene, its better for all of us.

ok i'm off the soap box now


holmeslovesguinness


Oct 7, 2004, 8:42 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Something happened with Barrabes and the EC or with their competitors or something. I bought some Boreal Ninjas for my young daughter about 2-3 years ago. $20! Add in $10 for shipping, and it was still half what I would have paid in the U.S. of A.

Don't know about the EC thing but Boreal-USA went out of business a couple of years ago and the shoes were ultra cheap for a while. Golds for 60 bucks, etc. Wish Ida bought more cause no other climbing shoe seems to fit my duck feet like those spanish lasts.

DMT

My understanding (from talking to someone at a local gear shop) is that Boreal's US distributor stopped doing business with them due to the fact that you could order them so cheaply via online Euro sites. Dunno if this is true or not. The only place I have been able to find them locally is at Neptune in Boulder (but of course they have everything there).


caughtinside


Oct 7, 2004, 8:46 AM
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Hmm, you can get a few of these gizmo's over the internet, but not in shops, and so america sucks?

The title of your thread is what sucks.


dingus


Oct 7, 2004, 8:53 AM
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In reply to:
Hmm, you can get a few of these gizmo's over the internet, but not in shops, and so america sucks?

The title of your thread is what sucks.

Yeah, it sucks, in that it got 700 hits in just a few hours. Not bad for a damn gear head thread. Classic misdirection!

I thought it was clever.

Cheers
DMT


maxdacat


Oct 7, 2004, 9:03 AM
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I know a few years ago Black Diamond had a fit because Americans could buy gear from MEC cheaper than they could in the US. So now MEC cannot ship certain items into the US. Which is now just a great excuse for a road trip to Canada!

Isn't that a bit anti-competetive?


thewiz


Oct 7, 2004, 9:13 AM
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Maybe you should move out of here, go to Canada or some where you could get your cheap crap. I think you suck soooo much.


rcaret


Oct 7, 2004, 10:07 AM
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because we try to make everything fair instead of letting a free market take over an allow for the better company to win


e_wire


Oct 7, 2004, 10:15 AM
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Dude, you need to cross the border, we have most of this stuff here in Canada - at least in Montreal - in most outdoors shop. The Frog thing, nuts, and the rest. Most of the Kong stuff anyway... But it doesn't have quite as good reputation as BD or Petzel.

e_wire.


pheenixx


Oct 7, 2004, 10:20 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Hmm, you can get a few of these gizmo's over the internet, but not in shops, and so america sucks?

The title of your thread is what sucks.

Yeah, it sucks, in that it got 700 hits in just a few hours. Not bad for a damn gear head thread.

What sucks is my post got CENSORED...!!! Wow -- my 1st -- (gnat...your my hero).

It case it was just a computer "glitch"....Former Post:
Congradulations, you've discovered barrabes.com

As to your forum title -- "Why does America suck sooooo much..."

B.U.S.H.

Maybe it was a Repblican who censore it... :lol:


rradjc


Oct 7, 2004, 10:25 AM
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All the gear you mention is available in US stores such as Pagan Mountaineering in Moab, Ut and I think Over the Crux in Az. Kong and related may be hard to find, but it exists in the US.


dingus


Oct 7, 2004, 10:33 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I know a few years ago Black Diamond had a fit because Americans could buy gear from MEC cheaper than they could in the US. So now MEC cannot ship certain items into the US. Which is now just a great excuse for a road trip to Canada!

Isn't that a bit anti-competetive?

I thought it was REI complaining that Canadian companies like MEC could sell BD gear for less than REI could, in the same marketplace, due to tax laws and exchange rate variations, etc. Barrabes played into this subject but I can't remember how.

So you are the VP of Sales at Black Diamond, and your largest customer says 'DO SOMETHING.'

Doing something isn't as anti-competitive as you make it out to be. If BD loses REI they lose a huge share of their market. THAT is anti-competitive.

Trade restrictions are not anti-competitive by definition. Sometimes they enable it.... most of the time. Unless you have sold out to globalism...

and if you've sold out to that silly assed concept then you MUST ACCEPT the actions of Blair and Bush toward Iraq.

I hate this 'one world' shit. If that means import duties on Euro goods, amen. if that means telling MEC they can't dump American manufactured goods on American soil thereby running American companies out of business, GOOD.

We shouldn't be looking to CANADA in terms of wisdom on this subject... they want to sell their largest mining company to a wholly owned Chinese government business front. That's right, Canada seems willing to sell their precious metals industry to a foreign government.

With 'globalism' like that? We poor dumb assed citizens NEED PROTECTION.

Walmart too. Bastards are killing the common man. Something will hagve to be done. I say... NUKE ARKANSAS, yee hah!

DMT


e_wire


Oct 7, 2004, 10:42 AM
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We shouldn't be looking to CANADA in terms of wisdom on this subject... they want to sell their largest mining company to a wholly owned Chinese government business front. That's right, Canada seems willing to sell their precious metals industry to a foreign government.
DMT

Dude, you're mixing up alot of issues here. Canada mining doesn't have anythinbg to do with this. Nor does the slack-or-close-to-none laws on gun control in the US! MEC will not ship BD equipment, nor will it ship cheaper Cloudveil apparel to the US. It's the type of agreement they do with US companies in order to protect their domestic market. Most of the stuff we get for less at MEC cannot be shipped to the US.

Get the facts straight! See this link for more info...

http://www.mec.ca/...C%3Efolder_id=730459

e_wire - yeah, I'm from Canada!


fanederhand


Oct 7, 2004, 11:22 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
But I agree about the the "Frog" thing. What the hell is it?

They are draws that are easier to clip and give you a bit of extra reach. Never used 'em but they look wierd.

The FROG:
http://www.barrabes.com/.../medium/kongfrog.jpg

Got a grip on one once. The principle is to keep the "gate" open untill the it's pushed against a bold whereafter it automaticly locks up. Makes it easier to clip reachy stuff. It's the last manufactured version of "panic draws" as far as I know.

There was a big discussion on it in a german climbers forum as they found out it becomes unclipped under certain circumstances (rope gets tangled around upper "biner" and pushes both of the release buttons or such). I think the purpose is truly in aid-climbing and the draw should be replaced by a normal one as quick as possible.

- Daniel

Try "Pagan Mountaineering" in Moab that is where I got one.


Partner tgreene


Oct 7, 2004, 11:32 AM
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http://www.climbonrock.com -- These guys carry Kong cams


Partner coylec


Oct 7, 2004, 11:51 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I know a few years ago Black Diamond had a fit because Americans could buy gear from MEC cheaper than they could in the US. So now MEC cannot ship certain items into the US. Which is now just a great excuse for a road trip to Canada!

Isn't that a bit anti-competetive?

Classic do-not-compete clause in contract formation. Highly effective. THis is how companies divy up markets for various distributors to ensure each distrubitor gets what htey want.

coylec


itakealot


Oct 7, 2004, 12:10 PM
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Most of the Kong stuff anyway... But it doesn't have quite as good reputation as BD or Petzel.

e_wire.

Those Bonatis just keep popping. -reference to the 1980's bonati recall. Doesn't anyone remember?


Partner chugach001


Oct 7, 2004, 12:36 PM
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Oh please...

These are nice products so why not either (1) buy 'em, (2) put your money where your mouth is and become their US Distributor (you know they want access to the world's largest market), or (3) become an instant millionaire by beating those lousy US companies at their own game.

At least we have 3 options that beat whining.
Jeff


danpayne


Oct 7, 2004, 1:00 PM
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Re: Why does America suck sooooo much

HUH? WTF does this have to do with gear?

Why don't you move to Iraq if the U.S. of A sucks?

uhhh, are you aware that the U.S. is in complete occupation of Iraq, trying to make their country like ours? Just curious to see if you heard about that whole "War Thing" over there?


jeffstephan


Oct 7, 2004, 1:08 PM
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To answer the title on this FORUM: Why does America suck sooooo much...
B.U.S.H.
I feel ya 8^)


outdoorclimber


Oct 7, 2004, 1:49 PM
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The frogger draw is sketchy. I've used it b4, and hated it. You can only clip into the bolt if you are directly under it, and it's a pain to take it off the bolt. Stick with normal draws...


wlderdude


Oct 7, 2004, 2:36 PM
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Wow, what an angry thread.

Oh, well. I'll se if anything can be cleared up.

The Frog works like the mechanism on your car door that latches it closed. I saw one at Pagan Mountaineering, but didn't buy one. They are one of the few places I have seen that have much Kong gear. Kong makes some good stuff. The workmanship isn't what the workmanship of US made gear is, but it is still very good. My Kong biners are some of my favorites.

Liberty Mountain took over distribution of Kong gear a couple years ago. They inflated the prices a bit over what their previous distributor had them at (I think it was Climb Axe, but I can't remember for sure). The Euro went up in value realtive to the dollar and Kong has been generally priced out of the US market. They were never very well known.

The lack of brand recognition and strong Euro have hurt some of the other European gear makers who have started selling gear to us, such as Cassin. Again, the workmanship is generally not as pollished. CE rated or not, fewer climbers are willing to trust the "cheaper" stuff so few shops carry it. Let's face it, few shops inventory much gear, they don't compete very fiercely with each other, reputation of the their quality is important and they like selling gear with higher sales margins.

I don't doubt that there is a great deal of pressure from market leaders to keep the Europeans in Europe with their gear. I understand Barrabes had to start listing US prices on their shoes when selling to US customers, or the manufacturers would stop selling them shoes. It raised a stink here when it happened, but apparently it blew over well enough it was forgotten.

The internet may overcome some of these issues. If want that stuff, you can get it. The market may get a little grey at times, but someone will sell it to you. But you can't pay with a cheque or pick the colour.


slablizard


Oct 7, 2004, 2:44 PM
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Well actually if you compare shoe prices they're lower in US (NOW). Last summer I had my wife bringing me a pair of Miura's from Italy, I paid $90 compared to $146 here. But I was checking now and the difference is minimal, at least at barrabes.

on sportextreme you also find some very good deals but often are larger sizes...
hen you add the shipping to the cost you're pretty much there again.


ophir


Oct 7, 2004, 3:14 PM
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Why does America suck sooooo much...
Wal-Mart, Mcdonalds, Home depot.


ldsclimber


Oct 7, 2004, 3:42 PM
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All this gear has been around for years. I remember seeing the Slyde in a shop in 96. The reason why most of that gear is not found in shops in the Us is simple Economics, Supply and Demand, also pacticality, the slyde is ment to be used with a static rope wich is a commen practice in Europe.
People are also like Sheep in the climbing world. Not very many of them are willing to try new gear, mostly for good reason, it is your life you are expermenting on.
People tend to buy the gear that they see working. The Euro brands are for the most part just as safe and some what cheaper, but they are just not popular. BD, Wild Country, Metolious and so on are all over the hardman/woman's rack. That tells all new comers that they are better.
The only way to find out for yourself is to be an informed buyer and research them out, find them and try them.


ldsclimber


Oct 7, 2004, 3:58 PM
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I forgot the whole reason for looking at this form.
As an American and as some one who has served her and has lived in other counties as a local I call BULL S!*T. To say that America sucks is a flat out Pomus statement and should make any American sigh with disbelief rather than whole heartedly agree, without even thinking about what was just said. I don't care what your political views are, America does not suck.
I love my county and will not sit by at my computer while Crap like that is passed on the Front PAGE of this Web Sight . You are intitled to have that view but I'll be Dambed if it's going unanswered.


ldsclimber


Oct 7, 2004, 4:09 PM
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After rereading the whole topic sentence again I gotta say sorry for ranting. Get out and vote.


kachoong


Oct 7, 2004, 4:15 PM
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...you guys think gear is expensive in the US????

...try here downunder.... our average 60m 10.5mm dynamic will cost you $280-$300 (US$210).... or say an Cobra ice axe for $400 (US$280) or a BD Camalot for $140 (US$100)....
...import tax SUCKS!


danbensen


Oct 7, 2004, 7:02 PM
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...you guys think gear is expensive in the US????

...try here downunder.... our average 60m 10.5mm dynamic will cost you $280-$300 (US$210).... or say an Cobra ice axe for $400 (US$280) or a BD Camalot for $140 (US$100)....
...import tax SUCKS!

damn, I was considering moving down there if that idiot Bush wins re-election, but that kinda throws a monkey wrench into the equation


danbensen


Oct 7, 2004, 7:02 PM
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...you guys think gear is expensive in the US????

...try here downunder.... our average 60m 10.5mm dynamic will cost you $280-$300 (US$210).... or say an Cobra ice axe for $400 (US$280) or a BD Camalot for $140 (US$100)....
...import tax SUCKS!

damn, I was considering moving down there if that idiot Bush wins re-election, but that kinda throws a monkey wrench into the equation


danpayne


Oct 7, 2004, 8:08 PM
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I forgot the whole reason for looking at this form.
As an American and as some one who has served her and has lived in other counties as a local I call BULL S!*T. To say that America sucks is a flat out Pomus statement and should make any American sigh with disbelief rather than whole heartedly agree, without even thinking about what was just said. I don't care what your political views are, America does not suck.
I love my county and will not sit by at my computer while Crap like that is passed on the Front PAGE of this Web Sight . You are intitled to have that view but I'll be Dambed if it's going unanswered.


"Well you may not agree with what I have to say, You'll defend to the death my right to say it!" :D Just messin, first off, thanks for your service. Overall America is a great place, but its an even greater place for us to be able to voice whats wrong with it.


Partner coylec


Oct 7, 2004, 8:11 PM
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I forgot the whole reason for looking at this form.[..] blah blah blah [..]

Dude, you need to lay off the caffeine, you're a little edgy.

coylec


ldsclimber


Oct 7, 2004, 9:39 PM
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Yeah Sorry about that enough said on my part.


Partner tattooed_climber


Oct 7, 2004, 10:03 PM
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FROG....looks cool and all...some good thinking/engineering went into that one....but....like always with me: K.I.S.S.

more moving-parts and crap, the more likely for a fk up


fluxus


Oct 7, 2004, 11:09 PM
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maybe someone already mentioned this but Liberty Mountain in SLC distributes some of the gear mentioned in the first post including the frog.
www.libertyclimbing.com

peace


fanederhand


Oct 9, 2004, 5:08 PM
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The frogger draw is sketchy. I've used it b4, and hated it. You can only clip into the bolt if you are directly under it, and it's a pain to take it off the bolt. Stick with normal draws...

I have had non of these problems. It is great for stick cliping as well.


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