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Mcdowell Bolt Choppers Needed!
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danpayne


Oct 19, 2004, 12:24 PM
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Mcdowell Bolt Choppers Needed!  (North_America: United_States: Arizona: Phoenix_Area: McDowell_Mountains)
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Hey all, just got back from the McDowells today. Svens Slab needs a good bolt chopper. Someone has put some TERRIBLE bolts in places they don't need to be. They aren't even Climbing bolts. just sh1t chain in places it shouldn't be. Its UNSAFE and someone is going to get hurt around there. I would do it, but I don't know the area well enough, and would prefer someone with more knowledge do it. The area is that tree place about 110' feet off the deck of quaker oats. You've got that bomber eye bolt that AMC put there and then a few feet below that you have these manky chains. Any input anyone?


caughtinside


Oct 19, 2004, 12:26 PM
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What is with the call for bolt choppers lately?

Doesn't anyone do anything themselves? Good thing we've got RC.com to whip up everyone into a frenzy.


danpayne


Oct 19, 2004, 12:28 PM
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I explained that, I would not trust myself to make any mods to the routes. but I do know there is some manky sh1t out there that someone will get hurt on if no one does anything about it.


caughtinside


Oct 19, 2004, 12:31 PM
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Re: Mcdowell Bolt Choppers Needed! [In reply to]
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well, if you feel you're not 'qualified' to unscrew a nut from a bolt, I might think that you're not qualified to make any kind of determination about the quality of fixed gear, and what should or shouldn't get chopped.

Or maybe you're just another lazy climber?


danpayne


Oct 19, 2004, 12:34 PM
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Jesus man, tryin to let people know there is some unsafe sh1t up there and you rip me apart. I'm just trying to help out, and you just want to make yourself look big.

Oh, and the gear isn't listed in any of my books/maps. Im guessing its not meant to be there. And, did I mention it looks like Sh1t....


caughtinside


Oct 19, 2004, 12:37 PM
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letting people know about 'unsafe' conditions

and

Bolt Choppers Needed!

are two different things there, chucklehead.


danpayne


Oct 19, 2004, 12:43 PM
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Listen buddy, If the guy I went out there with wasn't experienced, we might have actually used them. Maybe I don't know what the correct usage of "Chopping" is. It's mankey sh1t, I can't chop em, Dont know how. My buddy doesn't care. Just wanted to let people know, and now I'm done talking to you. You go make yourself feel important to someone else now.


Ignore.....


asandh


Oct 19, 2004, 1:00 PM
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:)


drubt


Oct 19, 2004, 1:19 PM
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In reply to:
Listen buddy, If the guy I went out there with wasn't experienced, we might have actually used them.

In reply to:
It's mankey sh1t, I can't chop em, Dont know how. My buddy doesn't care.

so the guy that wants to chop them isn't experienced knows enought to know that they are manky but you still almost used em? is that right
and the experienced one stopped you from using em but doesn't care whether other people use em?

strange
hope you figure it all out man it sounds like a rough little problem you gotta deal with


jimfix


Oct 19, 2004, 1:38 PM
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I can't believe the flack the original post is getting for wanting to remove unsafe fixed gear.

I might add 24' bolt cutters to my rack if people start over bolting at my local crags.

Bolts have two purposes

1) Protecting what can't be protected by natural pro.

2) Making bomber anchors for belay's, and only really necessary if a natural anchor can't be set.

One of my local crags has no bolts, and I hope local climbers lynch anyone who sets any there.


rradjc


Oct 19, 2004, 1:38 PM
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I'm not familiar with the chains you mention.

As for the bolts - what are you referring to here? From what I remember all of the bolts there are older, a bit rusty and not the heavy duty stainless steel hangars you'll see other places. But they do hold a fall. All the bolts for the routes on that wall seem to be adequately placed, meaning at good rest stances at cruxes and such.


crimpandgo


Oct 19, 2004, 1:50 PM
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There were no chains on Quaker Oats last time I did it. Just 5 bolts then a fairly lengthy runout to the AMC eye bolt. It is a 5.5 and my guess is someone thought it unsafe and added chains. I can't vouch for the quality of the chains, cause I have not seen them. I know chains were added to the 10a/10B to the right (changes in attitude or something like that) and they seemed like pretty good quality.

Your warning is well noted and appreciated. However, don't yell for bolt chopping. It is a sensitive issue around here


epic_ed


Oct 19, 2004, 1:54 PM
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Dan, was that you out there on Sunday? Me and my buddy Jeff were over on the 5.7 OW battling our brains out.

Anyhow -- if there are new chains at the top of Quaker Oats, then these are definitely new. That honkin eye bolt is the only fixed anchor at that belay station. The chains must be new -- within the last 8 months. What makes you feel they were unsafe? Location? Quality of hardware? Quality of placement?


tradmanclimbs


Oct 19, 2004, 2:50 PM
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A poor choice of words. If an anchor is unsafe it usualy needs to be replaced, not chopped. Replaceing unsafe fixed anchors with new stainless steel anchors is a good thing, community service, etc. You should not place new fixed anchors unless doing so by the agreement of the majority of the local climbing community.


sandbag


Oct 19, 2004, 3:03 PM
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Wow, big suprise, another bolt chopping flame fest. Been a while since we seen one of these..... :roll:


epic_ed


Oct 19, 2004, 5:09 PM
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In this case, there are about six routes on a slab that all end at the same point at the top of the slab. The AMC glued/installed a HUGE eye bolt there many years ago. It is the only fixed anchor at the top of the climb(s) and was in fine condition the last time I climbed there. There should be no need for those additional bolts, but I'll try to find out more info about who put them there and why.

Ed


joshklingbeil


Oct 19, 2004, 5:46 PM
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Their have been a number of bolts popping up out their in the Mcdowells. The bolts in question are located about 4 feet down and to the climbers right of the eyebolt. I noticed them out their around june. Thay are 1/2 inch expansion bolts with chains like whats on the Classic Ride The Wild 5.9 at Queen Creek. I think the bolts are solid but offensive. And will be subject for removel. Kinda like the bolt on top of the easy 5.7 Peaches & Cream. I also noticed that some Wanker added bolts to the 5.3 climb more like class 4 to the right of One for the road. I suspect thay are chopped by now. Ahh What we must do to keep our crags free of excess fixed gear.


rradjc


Oct 19, 2004, 9:32 PM
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If the chains at sven are the same as the chains added to ride the wild, then they're pretty damn bomber. However they certainly aren't necessary, myself, my friends and plenty of others before us had done those climbs over and over without complaint of bolt locations.

In the respect of Queen Creek, I've noticed more bolts and more open 'cold shut's' out there in the last year. The addition of anchors on Ride for instance seems ok I guess, but I'm more concerned with the open shuts being placed on slab type climbs and the like. PM for questions/info, I don't want to change the direction of the thread.... um, what was the direction of the thread?


curt


Oct 19, 2004, 9:39 PM
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There are probably many old bolts in the McDowells that should be replaced. I did a few routes on Gardiner's wall a couple years ago that had horrific old 1/4" bolts sticking half way out. I don't think they would hold much of a fall.

Curt


epic_ed


Oct 19, 2004, 9:55 PM
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I'm all for replacing the FA bolts actually on Sven's Slab. You might actually see someone lead a climb over there besides Quaker Oats. The addition of anchors or retrobolting of the slab to add bolts, however, should be (and I imagine would be) met swiftly with the sharp end of a crowbar.

Ed


joshklingbeil


Oct 19, 2004, 10:22 PM
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Someone recently replaced the bolts on Sinkso & Ego Trip on Sven Slab. Around the same time as the chains were installed.


Partner tim


Oct 19, 2004, 11:13 PM
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In reply to:
I might add 24' bolt cutters to my rack if people start over bolting at my local crags.

WTF?! Seriously, :wtf: Who the hell uses bolt cutters to chop? NO ONE! You've got to be a troll, my ''friend''.

How to rebolt: http://safeclimbing.com/...tion/howtorebolt.htm

Bolts that suck (not an exhaustive list): http://safeclimbing.com/...tion/dangerbolts.htm

For those of you playing along at home, chopping + adding a better bolt = rebolting. The question of what to do when no replacement bolt is called for, is left as an exercise for the reader. But, here is another helpful link.

http://www.acehardware.com/...oxy--pi-1409482.html + some local grit...

I haven't seen that many unnecessary bolts but I have volunteered my time to help replace the bolts on Sea of Tranquility, so I done went and poked around a bit with the tools. Turns out that a hammer and a U-notched LA piton, you can rip out most 1/4" coke-can-tabs as well as many other varieties of jingus. Once I can figure out which bolts are original on the lines I have been on in the Needles, I intend to rip out the new additions and replace the original (and now often horrifying) pieces with something out of this millenium. It is the least I can do after hardmen like Herb Laeger went up there and spent their cash & effort putting the originals in. I enjoy climbing up there and would like to return the favor. But this is not relevant to what's going on at your crag.

I'm ambivalent about chopping, but I thought it might help to at least get some decent information into the discussion. You guys in Arizona can no doubt figure out what needs to be done... just thought it might help to be real sure the doer is well informed.


danpayne


Oct 20, 2004, 12:54 AM
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In reply to:
Dan, was that you out there on Sunday? Me and my buddy Jeff were over on the 5.7 OW battling our brains out.

Anyhow -- if there are new chains at the top of Quaker Oats, then these are definitely new. That honkin eye bolt is the only fixed anchor at that belay station. The chains must be new -- within the last 8 months. What makes you feel they were unsafe? Location? Quality of hardware? Quality of placement?

I was actually out there today (Tuesday). I was informed today by Anthony from The Hiking shack, that a lot of manky gear was placed out there this last summer, and he intends to chop it. Not for the ethics of it, but because it is unsafe. And as he put " The new gear was not the intent of the original ascension party" I talked to him about it a little while after posting this. Hes got about 25 years experience so I'll let him take care of them. So problem solved... In my book at least.


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 1:35 AM
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It's gonna be fun to chop those 1/2 inch bolts. All 6 or 8 of them. I look forward to see this Fixed gear get the boot. I think their is a good amount of old hardware out their on climbs like Hard Drivin' & Tumbling Dice. It's abought time to talk to Ficker & Waugh and get permission to replace their old hardware store bolts with some bomber bolts. Those rust streaks are getting longerrr. I hate it when some freeking A$$ feels the need to retrobolt a proud line....Some names come to mind Smeltzer knows what I'm talking about.Someone needs to rebolt Deliverance 11c at Pinnacle Peak before I kill my self on those 1/4 inchers..........


climblouisiana


Oct 20, 2004, 7:38 AM
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Maybe someone should replace this bolt on Fearless Leader with these bolts found at the top of Lost Nuts at Pinnacle Peak .
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=20957
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=33789


thedesertnomad


Oct 20, 2004, 8:22 AM
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Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again...

Thanks


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 1:35 PM
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I think that replacing old 1/4 inchers change the commitment level of any given route. So Permission would be the best thing to do. Did the same person that replaced the bolts on sven slab also add the chains? I bet the shirt on my back .


asandh


Oct 20, 2004, 1:45 PM
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:)


epic_ed


Oct 20, 2004, 1:47 PM
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In reply to:
Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again...

Thanks

We saw none on Sunday, but then we didn't make it over to Sven's proper. We were over on Changes in Latitude and Peaches & Cream. Beautiful weather, it is...

Dan -- Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed.

Ed


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 2:10 PM
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Quote" Nobody needs permission to replace old unsafe 1/4 bolts. Those bolts were safe for the FA to lead on, now they're not safe for current leaders. Need permission to bring a route back to its original safety state ??? Come on, think this one through .... " The Original Safty State Was New 1/4 inchers... Not 1/2 inch x 3 3/4 inch 5 piece Power Bolts..... I think old timer Bob Blair may still be pounding in 1/4 inchers? I don't think 1/4 inchers were all that solid when new. Not by todays standerd anyway.


crimpandgo


Oct 20, 2004, 2:40 PM
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In reply to:
Quote" Nobody needs permission to replace old unsafe 1/4 bolts. Those bolts were safe for the FA to lead on, now they're not safe for current leaders. Need permission to bring a route back to its original safety state ??? Come on, think this one through .... " The Original Safty State Was New 1/4 inchers... Not 1/2 inch x 3 3/4 inch 5 piece Power Bolts..... I think old timer Bob Blair may still be pounding in 1/4 inchers? I don't think 1/4 inchers were all that solid when new. Not by todays standerd anyway.

1/4 inchers may be acceptable by some standards... and may maintain the original state of the FA, but not when they are old and rusty. They need to be replaced. Some of the bolts on Sven looks in bad shape to me. I felt much better climbing past the second bolt on Ego trip after it got replaced. Especially when the guide book lists it as runout and ground fall potential. If it breaks, you are decking.

P.S. I dont remember too many problems with bees on the sven slab proper either. I did have to change course at the top of One for the road due to a rather large nest near the top and to the right. Beware climbing it and be safe.

For what its worth, I dont condone adding bolts to climbs already existing. Seems to be happening alot. A number of Queen creek climbs are getting bolts added. But I have to admit, Quacker Oats was my first lead, and as a 5.5 that last section to the anchors was pretty run out and can tend to freak new leaders out. It might be nice to talk to the FA and see if they wouldn't mind the new anchors. It would make the runout a little less. Think like a 5.5 climber on their first 5.5 lead, instead of a 5.10 climber doing a fun 5.5 lead.

P.S.S If anyone is interested in taking a trip up to Gardners wall any time soon, I would love the company. I have never been up there and have been looking foward to it.


epic_ed


Oct 20, 2004, 2:43 PM
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1/4" bolts are no longer considered the standard for lead protection hardware. It's generally accepted that a 3/8" x 3.25" bolt is acceptible replacement hardware for old 1/4" bolts. These will be around longer than the original hardware and the net total gain is less cost for replacement (over time), and less damage to the rock since fewer hole will be needed to be patched/redrilled over that same period of time.

Ed


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 3:08 PM
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I don't really care if these routes get new bolts. But It gonna change Them from a climb where you are in the no fall zone to I don't whanna fall zone. It's obivious your not as comfertable as climblouisiana and others who still climb these routes with the original hardware. It's like someone wanking out abought the bolts on the hand. Maybe You should not be on these routes. Have you guys done the Tower In the Supes Its a freeking Classic runout climb with a few 1/4 inch bolts Do you think thay should yanked out? Or should you get some balls like the Hardmen that climbed it before you. I think everything in the Superstition mtns. Fits into this no fall zone. Do you feel the need to modify these climbs to fit your needs? Maybe you need to get permission to retro it man for your safty!!!!


crimpandgo


Oct 20, 2004, 3:16 PM
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In reply to:
I don't really care if these routes get new bolts. But It gonna change Them from a climb where you are in the no fall zone to I don't whanna fall zone. It's obivious your not as comfertable as climblouisiana and others who still climb these routes with the original hardware. It's like someone wanking out abought the bolts on the hand. Maybe You should not be on these routes. Have you guys done the Tower In the Supes Its a freeking Classic runout climb with a few 1/4 inch bolts Do you think thay should yanked out? Or should you get some balls like the Hardmen that climbed it before you. I think everything in the Superstition mtns. Fits into this no fall zone. Do you feel the need to modify these climbs to fit your needs? Maybe you need to get permission to retro it man for your safty!!!!

You wanna die hardman, you go right ahead. The rest of would like to live and climb another day. The original climbers climbed on 1/4 new bolts. Not 1/4 inch, 20 year old rusted bolts. I have been on a few climbs in the Sups, and I tell ya, I may not climb them again unless that crap gets replaced or I can place trad instead of clipping. Some of that crap looks like it would break off just by clipping in. Make sure you are signed up for your frequent flyer miles, cause you are gonna use them. :lol:

Signed
non-hardman


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 3:53 PM
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No I don't want to die thats why I don't fall on those route. You would have to be stupid to do so? And No I don't consider my self a hardman just a climber who knows his limits. Maybe you need to become more self aware of your ability. .If you feel you are gonna die on the route maybe you should not climb it! These are climbs you have to feel SOLID on and know your ability level...Is the Hand Scary for you? You guys have been at Pinnacle Peak climbing on glue-ins huhh? Buy a Gripp of glue-in bolts Dude!! And get someone has lots of experance bolting to do the dirty work for you. Then they will be solid for like 100 years. Or Maybe go to Queen Creek and climb that place out before they turn it into a hole in the ground. While you guys are out there bolting away. replace the bolts on Deliverance 11c and Deep Freeze 11a oh and Sidewinder 11a has a old bolt on the traverse that Marty couldn't see due to being blinded by the huge shinny eyebolts on top of lost nuts. Luna 10b and redemption 5.9 also got old rusty bolts with leaper hangers.Hey man I was at the peak the other day and the bees were chill. I think its time fore you to do South Crack. Think you can hack it man watch out for the manky fixed tricam.


crimpandgo


Oct 20, 2004, 4:06 PM
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No I don't want to die thats why I don't fall on those route. You would have to be stupid to do so? And No I don't consider my self a hardman just a climber who knows his limits. Maybe you need to become more self aware of your ability. .If you feel you are gonna die on the route maybe you should not climb it! These are climbs you have to feel SOLID on and know your ability level...Is the Hand Scary for you? You guys have been at Pinnacle Peak climbing on glue-ins huhh? Buy a Gripp of glue-in bolts Dude!! And get someone has lots of experance bolting to do the dirty work for you. Then they will be solid for like 100 years. Or Maybe go to Queen Creek and climb that place out before they turn it into a hole in the ground. While you guys are out there bolting away. replace the bolts on Deliverance 11c and Deep Freeze 11a oh and Sidewinder 11a has a old bolt on the traverse that Marty couldn't see due to being blinded by the huge shinny eyebolts on top of lost nuts. Luna 10b and redemption 5.9 also got old rusty bolts with leaper hangers.Hey man I was at the peak the other day and the bees were chill. I think its time fore you to do South Crack. Think you can hack it man watch out for the manky fixed tricam.

Do you believe the crap you spew bro? You can actually prevent all the elements that might lead to you falling? You are obviously in connection to a higher power than most of us bro cause I never believe I don't have a chance of falling. I read too many of the injury reports on this site to believe I am above falling, even on the most comfortable of climbing.

and by the way. All those places you spew off? I have climbed at all of them and love them. And if some of the manky gear got replaced, I would enjoy them even more.


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 4:21 PM
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Even if these routes get new bolts. You will still be wanking on 5.7. Piss off Cupcake. Go climb a dozen routes at camleback and those 1/4 inchers will seem solid. I bet you have never Soloed anything except the class 4 up Sven Slab. I would never want to fall in the supes doing so might result in death. Just a tip for you Noobs.And watch out for those chossy flakes at Mcdowells. Sorry for the hard feeling bro I guess I must be bored. And thanks for ranting with me.


crimpandgo


Oct 20, 2004, 4:27 PM
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Even if these routes get new bolts. You will still be wanking on 5.7. Piss off Cupcake. Go climb a dozen routes at camleback and those 1/4 inchers will seem solid. I bet you have never Soloed anything except the class 4 up Sven Slab. I would never want to fall in the supes doing so might result in death. Just a tip for you Noobs.And watch out for those chossy flakes at Mcdowells. Sorry for the hard feeling bro I guess I must be bored. And thanks for ranting with me.

I like ranting with you, though, I would do with a little less sarcasm and criticism. dont see the need for it since you don't even know me nor do you know how I climb. But hey, but if you like bein a jerk, who am I to get in the way.

To answer your question, no, I have never soloed and do not plan to solo. I value my life more than that. But hey, if it makes you feel more like a stud, you go right ahead and do it. I will make sure I am not below you to pick up the pieces.


epic_ed


Oct 20, 2004, 4:35 PM
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Josh, there comes a point on every bolted route that the fixed hardware needs to be replaced. Why do you think you're such a hardman for climbing on bolts that are clearly past their usefulness?

FWIW -- there is a bolting ban in the Supes. That alone is the reason none of the old stuff has been replaced. It's because you can't replace it.

Ed


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 4:36 PM
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Yeah Soloing Require you know your ability level.Rock how ever does and will break adding a risk factor. How long have you been trad climbing for?Their are trad climbs with the same risk factor. The Bolting ban states that no new perminent structures In the Wilderness.


crimpandgo


Oct 20, 2004, 4:43 PM
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In reply to:
Yeah Soloing Require you know your ability level.Rock how ever does and will break adding a risk factor. How long have you been trad climbing for?Their are trad climbs with the same risk factor.

Really? There are trad climbs with the same risk factor as soloing? Hmm. wouldn't it be called a solo then?

Have fun bro... and be as safe as you can :lol:


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 4:56 PM
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Have you ever seen a X rated Climb before Crimpandgo. I have toproped a few because I was not up to die on a 11b X route. Epic Ed I have stated that upgrading the bolts will change the state of mind of the leader as he/she climbs past them. I have stated a few climbs that are hard routes that are in need of bolt replacement. And have also stated these are heady climbs thet should not be taken lightly. And also stated that I'm not a Hardman. Does Hanging on bashies make you a hard man epic? Does Freeclimbing past them like on the climb at Cholla called Mish Mash(5.7) make you a hard man? No... But I don't think Stan Mish would like you to pull out the bashies and put in bolts.I don't think he would like that. You guys need to Relax for these climbs. Mello out Man!


clausti


Oct 20, 2004, 5:12 PM
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edit: delete.


danpayne


Oct 20, 2004, 5:22 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again...

Thanks

We saw none on Sunday, but then we didn't make it over to Sven's proper. We were over on Changes in Latitude and Peaches & Cream. Beautiful weather, it is...

Dan -- Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed.

Ed

Thanks Ed, let me just get one thing straight with everyone on here though. These aren't Good bolts gone bad. This is gear that was never intended for this purpose. Anthony will tell you all about it. These bolts are rated at about 300 lbs. And don't even have climbing hangers. Anyway, sorry to stir the sh1t up with everyone. I didn't know there would be such a problem in asking someone with more experience to remove something that may kill somebody...

And to answer your BEE question, I was on the Quaker oats wall the whole time and only saw one bee. Hope that helps.

Dan


epic_ed


Oct 20, 2004, 6:30 PM
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Josh, would you agree that all fixed hardware needs to be replaced eventually?


olejeff


Oct 20, 2004, 7:39 PM
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This thread is funny! Josh, are you high?


curt


Oct 20, 2004, 7:46 PM
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I am a little fuzzy on the ethics here in Arizona, since I have only lived and climbed here since 1992 and I have never placed a bolt here. However, the general prevailing climbing ethic I am familiar with allows for the replacement of bad bolts with newer safer bolts--as long as no additional bolts are added to the route.

Curt


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 7:51 PM
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Yes Epic Ed Because eventually It will rust off the rock. But their will be places like the Troon mtn, The Supes, and Lower east wall at Pinnacle where the mank will live Forever. Well at least untill someone trespasses to Fix fixed hardware. Ed you should aid Deep Freeze On the thumb. You would have fun except for the manditory 5.8 bird $h!t protected by a .75 camalot. I had fun on it on sunday except for the bird crap. Olejeff If iI was high I wouldn't have replyed 10 times in the same thread :lol: .


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:11 PM
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climblouisiana wrote:
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Maybe someone should replace this bolt on Fearless Leader with these bolts found at the top of Lost Nuts at Pinnacle Peak .

You can thank Marty Karabin for those fu**ing eyesores. He did it under the guise of providing "safe" anchors for a boy scout tyrolean traverse from the main Peak to the north side. In reality, it was purely for a slackline setup.

G.


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:14 PM
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josh wrote:
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Did the same person that replaced the bolts on sven slab also add the chains? I bet the shirt on my back .

I'd bet my shirt that they didn't replace the bolts. I'd bet they only replaced the hangers.


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 8:21 PM
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Well steelmonke give me your shirt. You can clearly see the old chopped 3/8 inch bolts right next to the new ones. $h!tty Rebolting job Now give me your freeking shirt. And BTW Oak creek spire North face is only 5.9.


olejeff


Oct 20, 2004, 8:27 PM
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Josh, you are cracking me up. Just for kicks and giggles, try an honest to goodness reply in correct English.


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:30 PM
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Ed wrote:
In reply to:
Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed.

Ed, I would like to be involved in this. I actually got my junk together to start reworking the old bolts on Gardeners Wall a while back and got sidetracked. Count me in... get ahold of me (PM would work initially) if you organize something. It would be nice to try to figure out a reasonable way to pursue this activity rather than have a bunch of people just thrashing around out there. The crags are worth the respect since they're sort of the last accessible example of the standard Phoenix climbing once set (Pinnacle Peak having been turned into an amusement park).

Heard about the chains on Svens a while back and just sigh and shake my head. These days, a lotta people put in anchors because they're simply lazy and learned to climb in a gym. Some numbnut probably put the chains in above Quaker Oats so that he could run a slingshot toprope out there for classes or something. Bad reason, but I've heard some of the local guide people pretty much treat Svens like it's their own personal crag, so I wouldn't be surprised if...

I'd like to hear about other (strictly the added ones!) bolts that have magically shown up in the McDowells. The weather's nice, I dont' mind going for a hike with my crowbar and fixing what shouldn't have been done. I'm still trying to figure out why someone put a pair of bolts on the southeast corner of the summit Tom's Thumb.

Josh: lighten up a little. Nobody would advocate 1/4" bolts in this day and age. It's just stupid. 3/8" is no problem for replacement, and even preferred if you can get a clean redrill on the old hole to limit damage to the rock. And I wouldn't necessarily base any of my activities on ANYTHING Bob Blair advocates if I was you. Can you say extremist?

Again, before anyone goes running out there thinking bolts have been replaced because they have a new hanger on them, I've seen bolts (like the ones on the east side of the Hawk Boulder) that are still the originals that have had new hangers screwed down on them. The old bolts are probably not that bad in some cases, just good to be aware of what you might be whipping on.


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:38 PM
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danpayne:
In reply to:
let me just get one thing straight with everyone on here though. These aren't Good bolts gone bad. This is gear that was never intended for this purpose. Anthony will tell you all about it. These bolts are rated at about 300 lbs. And don't even have climbing hangers. Anyway, sorry to stir the sh1t up with everyone. I didn't know there would be such a problem in asking someone with more experience to remove something that may kill somebody...

Don't sweat it Dan. You did a good thing. This is the net, so take it with a grain of salt. And don't be afraid to bring up similar stuff you see out there in the future. I think the only way to keep this sorta sh*t at bay is to yank it until people realize that someone cares enough to clean up. Consider the crappy gear gone as soon as I have a bit of free time to run out there. Thanks.


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 8:40 PM
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Quote:"Josh, you are cracking me up. Just for kicks and giggles, try an honest to goodness reply in correct English. " STFU Noob. Is that any better?


curt


Oct 20, 2004, 8:43 PM
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In reply to:
Quote:"Josh, you are cracking me up. Just for kicks and giggles, try an honest to goodness reply in correct English. " STFU Noob. Is that any better?

Kid.....really......its.....

STFU n00b!!!!11111 Please pay attention.

Curt


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:44 PM
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josh wrote:
In reply to:
Well steelmonke give me your shirt. You can clearly see the old chopped 3/8 inch bolts right next to the new ones. $h!tty Rebolting job Now give me your freeking shirt.

Ahhhhh...gotcha. Haven't been out there in a while. Figured they just did what they did on the Hawk Boulder and screwed down some new hangers. Well that's complete bullsh*t.

Oh and you need to lay off the red meat dude. Whats with all the fu*king attitude?

In reply to:
And BTW Oak creek spire North face is only 5.9.

Oh... I didn't realize you were such a macho man. Sorry to inflame your already aggro sense of self.


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 9:00 PM
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Thanks for the 411 Curt. I've been a little pissed off latly, so sorry people for ranting. I've been upset with all this rock abuse latly. I agree thet I may need to mello out a little. Damn it I need to crank on some rad rock to calm myself.And it's not red meat man. Peace


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 9:21 PM
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I also forgot to say that this is the most attention that the McDowells have got since the 70s. Now go chop those bolts.....


olejeff


Oct 20, 2004, 9:50 PM
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Wow Josh, you are an angry fellow. I agree, you do need to mellow out. If I upset you I apologize.


epic_ed


Oct 20, 2004, 10:36 PM
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Greg, I PM'd you.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 9:48 AM
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I like reading this thread.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:05 AM
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In reply to:
climblouisiana wrote:
In reply to:
Maybe someone should replace this bolt on Fearless Leader with these bolts found at the top of Lost Nuts at Pinnacle Peak .

You can thank Marty Karabin for those fu**ing eyesores. He did it under the guise of providing "safe" anchors for a boy scout tyrolean traverse from the main Peak to the north side. In reality, it was purely for a slackline setup.

G.

I know that Mary put them in there, Greg. I'm sure he was also responsible for adding bolts to Dead Meat, Loafer's Choice, Fear of Flying, Naked Edge, Hiliter, Redemption, Dungeons and Dragons, Never Never Land, Birthday Party, Mr. Creamjeans, Deathwatch, Pecker Party, Dried Oatmeal, etc. He did that all before replacing the existing mank on Luna, Lesson in Discipline, Sidewinder, Deliverance, and others I can't remember. I wonder if the First acentionists gave him permission. ha ha.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:08 AM
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In reply to:
Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again...

Thanks

If I am out at the McDowells tomorrow or sunday, I will attempt to take care of the bees to the right of One For the Road. They're pretty sluggish when it gets colder.

Also the bees at the top of BEEGEE are getting closer to see their maker if they haven't already.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:18 AM
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In reply to:
But I have to admit, Quacker Oats was my first lead, and as a 5.5 that last section to the anchors was pretty run out and can tend to freak new leaders out. It might be nice to talk to the FA and see if they wouldn't mind the new anchors. It would make the runout a little less. Think like a 5.5 climber on their first 5.5 lead, instead of a 5.10 climber doing a fun 5.5 lead.

Adding bolts or chains to Quaker Oats is unacceptable. If you're freaked out by the runout then toprope it.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:23 AM
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In reply to:
Ed wrote:
In reply to:
Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed.

Ed, I would like to be involved in this. I actually got my junk together to start reworking the old bolts on Gardeners Wall a while back and got sidetracked. Count me in... get ahold of me (PM would work initially) if you organize something. It would be nice to try to figure out a reasonable way to pursue this activity rather than have a bunch of people just thrashing around out there. The crags are worth the respect since they're sort of the last accessible example of the standard Phoenix climbing once set (Pinnacle Peak having been turned into an amusement park).

Heard about the chains on Svens a while back and just sigh and shake my head. These days, a lotta people put in anchors because they're simply lazy and learned to climb in a gym. Some numbnut probably put the chains in above Quaker Oats so that he could run a slingshot toprope out there for classes or something. Bad reason, but I've heard some of the local guide people pretty much treat Svens like it's their own personal crag, so I wouldn't be surprised if...

I'd like to hear about other (strictly the added ones!) bolts that have magically shown up in the McDowells. The weather's nice, I dont' mind going for a hike with my crowbar and fixing what shouldn't have been done. I'm still trying to figure out why someone put a pair of bolts on the southeast corner of the summit Tom's Thumb.

Josh: lighten up a little. Nobody would advocate 1/4" bolts in this day and age. It's just stupid. 3/8" is no problem for replacement, and even preferred if you can get a clean redrill on the old hole to limit damage to the rock. And I wouldn't necessarily base any of my activities on ANYTHING Bob Blair advocates if I was you. Can you say extremist?

Again, before anyone goes running out there thinking bolts have been replaced because they have a new hanger on them, I've seen bolts (like the ones on the east side of the Hawk Boulder) that are still the originals that have had new hangers screwed down on them. The old bolts are probably not that bad in some cases, just good to be aware of what you might be whipping on.

Yes, the crags are worthy of respect. As are the first ascentionists.

Yes, Pinnacle Peak has turned into an amusement park.

Greg, thanks for the comments.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:35 AM
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Re: Mcdowell Bolt Choppers Needed! [In reply to]
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I think that replacing old 1/4 inchers change the commitment level of any given route. So Permission would be the best thing to do. Did the same person that replaced the bolts on sven slab also add the chains? I bet the shirt on my back .

I agree that it changes the commitment level of the route. If someone that was responsible replaced the 1/4" bolt with 3/8", I probably wouldn't be too mad about it.

As time goes by, the original intention or style of a crag's development may get lost due to the slippery slope of added hardware thus diminishing the developerss accomplishments and the experience of future climbers.

Hey Josh, Let's watch the "Eiger Sanction".


steelmonkey


Oct 22, 2004, 7:41 AM
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climblouisiana wrote:
In reply to:
I know that Mary put them in there, Greg. I'm sure he was also responsible for adding bolts to [pretty much all the bolted routes at PP] and others I can't remember. I wonder if the First acentionists gave him permission. ha ha.

I just want to make sure everyone knows who's doing the drilling out there. Sometimes when I'm ragging on Marty for this stuff, I wonder if anyone else cares (or knows). He doesn't so far... I'm just noise.

He added the bolts to "make it safe" supposedly and at the behest of the City of Scottsdale (who I'm pretty sure depends on Marty to give them the definition of "safe" when it comes to climbing protection). From what I can tell, for most of today's climbers, "safe" means no possibility of injury instead of the older version where you don't die. It blows my mind that we've gone so far as to retrobolt one of the nicest old school crags in Phoenix because gym climbers expect more protection.

In reply to:
As time goes by, the original intention or style of a crag's development may get lost due to the slippery slope of added hardware thus diminishing the developers accomplishments and the experience of future climbers.

Nice comment. It seems to me that it's up to the climbers who still care to try to maintain the "experience and style" of the Phoenix granite areas. Obviously Pinnacle Peak has been eliminated from this category, Troon is all but gone and all the other areas may soon be eliminated as well. I guess until that day comes, we'll need to keep our eyes open and make sure that bolters are aware that anything out-of-bounds that is found on established climbs is going to meet with the business end of a crowbar. Pretty much our only recourse or means of deterrence. All I ask (or hope for) is that people do the job right. Pull it, go easy on the rock, if the bolt breaks, try to push it back in and patch the hole as well as you can with epoxy and crushed rock.

I'm pretty sure that virtually all of the old school route developers (Bob Blair might be an exception) would find it completely appropriate to replace old rusty quarter-inch bolts with their modern 3/8" counterparts. The real popular bolt around here for years, however, was the old self-drilling type with the jagged edge along the bottom that drilled it's own 1/2" hole. Sometimes took more than one of those to drill a hole in the granite around here as the teeth broke off. If it makes Josh feel better, I'd be happy to ask the ones I can contact. For most routes, I'd just have to ask Ficker, which makes it easier. :D

For what it's worth...
Manny Rangle and I (mostly Manny so far) have been trying to contact and arrange a meeting with someone from the Superstitions (TNF) in order to try to strike up a dialogue about some sort of bolt-replacement program before someone dies out there. I hope to get this effort rolling again this fall to see if something can be done. The situation is ridiculous out there right now. So far, they're not being particularly helpful.

In reply to:
Also the bees at the top of BEEGEE are getting
closer to see their maker if they haven't already.

We always used to joke about getting a gallon of gas and pouring it down the crack from above and lighting them up to get them out of there. Would have been an interesting sight, to say the least, especially if we'd done it at night... :lol:


tanthalas39


Jan 28, 2007, 5:57 PM
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Re: [danpayne] Mcdowell Bolt Choppers Needed! [In reply to]
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Well, I know this is literally years later, but just in case anyone is reading this and wonders how it all panned out... the offending chains are gone. I led Sinkso and Ego Trip today (hey, someone DOES lead something other than Quaker Oats!), and the only anchor at the top was the previously mentioned huge AMC ring.

/In the interest of full disclosure, I onsighted both climbs today, but I used the same last bolt for BOTH climbs, which now reading the guidebook, apparently I'm not supposed to do for Sinkso. Oh well.


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