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joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 8:21 PM
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Well steelmonke give me your shirt. You can clearly see the old chopped 3/8 inch bolts right next to the new ones. $h!tty Rebolting job Now give me your freeking shirt. And BTW Oak creek spire North face is only 5.9.


olejeff


Oct 20, 2004, 8:27 PM
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Josh, you are cracking me up. Just for kicks and giggles, try an honest to goodness reply in correct English.


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:30 PM
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Ed wrote:
In reply to:
Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed.

Ed, I would like to be involved in this. I actually got my junk together to start reworking the old bolts on Gardeners Wall a while back and got sidetracked. Count me in... get ahold of me (PM would work initially) if you organize something. It would be nice to try to figure out a reasonable way to pursue this activity rather than have a bunch of people just thrashing around out there. The crags are worth the respect since they're sort of the last accessible example of the standard Phoenix climbing once set (Pinnacle Peak having been turned into an amusement park).

Heard about the chains on Svens a while back and just sigh and shake my head. These days, a lotta people put in anchors because they're simply lazy and learned to climb in a gym. Some numbnut probably put the chains in above Quaker Oats so that he could run a slingshot toprope out there for classes or something. Bad reason, but I've heard some of the local guide people pretty much treat Svens like it's their own personal crag, so I wouldn't be surprised if...

I'd like to hear about other (strictly the added ones!) bolts that have magically shown up in the McDowells. The weather's nice, I dont' mind going for a hike with my crowbar and fixing what shouldn't have been done. I'm still trying to figure out why someone put a pair of bolts on the southeast corner of the summit Tom's Thumb.

Josh: lighten up a little. Nobody would advocate 1/4" bolts in this day and age. It's just stupid. 3/8" is no problem for replacement, and even preferred if you can get a clean redrill on the old hole to limit damage to the rock. And I wouldn't necessarily base any of my activities on ANYTHING Bob Blair advocates if I was you. Can you say extremist?

Again, before anyone goes running out there thinking bolts have been replaced because they have a new hanger on them, I've seen bolts (like the ones on the east side of the Hawk Boulder) that are still the originals that have had new hangers screwed down on them. The old bolts are probably not that bad in some cases, just good to be aware of what you might be whipping on.


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:38 PM
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danpayne:
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let me just get one thing straight with everyone on here though. These aren't Good bolts gone bad. This is gear that was never intended for this purpose. Anthony will tell you all about it. These bolts are rated at about 300 lbs. And don't even have climbing hangers. Anyway, sorry to stir the sh1t up with everyone. I didn't know there would be such a problem in asking someone with more experience to remove something that may kill somebody...

Don't sweat it Dan. You did a good thing. This is the net, so take it with a grain of salt. And don't be afraid to bring up similar stuff you see out there in the future. I think the only way to keep this sorta sh*t at bay is to yank it until people realize that someone cares enough to clean up. Consider the crappy gear gone as soon as I have a bit of free time to run out there. Thanks.


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 8:40 PM
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Quote:"Josh, you are cracking me up. Just for kicks and giggles, try an honest to goodness reply in correct English. " STFU Noob. Is that any better?


curt


Oct 20, 2004, 8:43 PM
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In reply to:
Quote:"Josh, you are cracking me up. Just for kicks and giggles, try an honest to goodness reply in correct English. " STFU Noob. Is that any better?

Kid.....really......its.....

STFU n00b!!!!11111 Please pay attention.

Curt


steelmonkey


Oct 20, 2004, 8:44 PM
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josh wrote:
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Well steelmonke give me your shirt. You can clearly see the old chopped 3/8 inch bolts right next to the new ones. $h!tty Rebolting job Now give me your freeking shirt.

Ahhhhh...gotcha. Haven't been out there in a while. Figured they just did what they did on the Hawk Boulder and screwed down some new hangers. Well that's complete bullsh*t.

Oh and you need to lay off the red meat dude. Whats with all the fu*king attitude?

In reply to:
And BTW Oak creek spire North face is only 5.9.

Oh... I didn't realize you were such a macho man. Sorry to inflame your already aggro sense of self.


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 9:00 PM
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Thanks for the 411 Curt. I've been a little pissed off latly, so sorry people for ranting. I've been upset with all this rock abuse latly. I agree thet I may need to mello out a little. Damn it I need to crank on some rad rock to calm myself.And it's not red meat man. Peace


joshklingbeil


Oct 20, 2004, 9:21 PM
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I also forgot to say that this is the most attention that the McDowells have got since the 70s. Now go chop those bolts.....


olejeff


Oct 20, 2004, 9:50 PM
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Wow Josh, you are an angry fellow. I agree, you do need to mellow out. If I upset you I apologize.


epic_ed


Oct 20, 2004, 10:36 PM
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Greg, I PM'd you.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 9:48 AM
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I like reading this thread.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:05 AM
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In reply to:
climblouisiana wrote:
In reply to:
Maybe someone should replace this bolt on Fearless Leader with these bolts found at the top of Lost Nuts at Pinnacle Peak .

You can thank Marty Karabin for those fu**ing eyesores. He did it under the guise of providing "safe" anchors for a boy scout tyrolean traverse from the main Peak to the north side. In reality, it was purely for a slackline setup.

G.

I know that Mary put them in there, Greg. I'm sure he was also responsible for adding bolts to Dead Meat, Loafer's Choice, Fear of Flying, Naked Edge, Hiliter, Redemption, Dungeons and Dragons, Never Never Land, Birthday Party, Mr. Creamjeans, Deathwatch, Pecker Party, Dried Oatmeal, etc. He did that all before replacing the existing mank on Luna, Lesson in Discipline, Sidewinder, Deliverance, and others I can't remember. I wonder if the First acentionists gave him permission. ha ha.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:08 AM
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Having NOTHING to do with "chopping" vs "replacing".... HEY Dan or Ed... how were the bees (if any still) over at Svens ?!? I have seen them pretty thick there before. The weather is getting nice for McD's again...

Thanks

If I am out at the McDowells tomorrow or sunday, I will attempt to take care of the bees to the right of One For the Road. They're pretty sluggish when it gets colder.

Also the bees at the top of BEEGEE are getting closer to see their maker if they haven't already.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:18 AM
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In reply to:
But I have to admit, Quacker Oats was my first lead, and as a 5.5 that last section to the anchors was pretty run out and can tend to freak new leaders out. It might be nice to talk to the FA and see if they wouldn't mind the new anchors. It would make the runout a little less. Think like a 5.5 climber on their first 5.5 lead, instead of a 5.10 climber doing a fun 5.5 lead.

Adding bolts or chains to Quaker Oats is unacceptable. If you're freaked out by the runout then toprope it.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:23 AM
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In reply to:
Ed wrote:
In reply to:
Anthony is a good friend of mine -- I'll have a talk with him about how to proceed and may even get involved in the effort. Permission of the FA isn't necessary to replace old mank. No additional bolts should be placed, and if there are any, they will be removed.

Ed, I would like to be involved in this. I actually got my junk together to start reworking the old bolts on Gardeners Wall a while back and got sidetracked. Count me in... get ahold of me (PM would work initially) if you organize something. It would be nice to try to figure out a reasonable way to pursue this activity rather than have a bunch of people just thrashing around out there. The crags are worth the respect since they're sort of the last accessible example of the standard Phoenix climbing once set (Pinnacle Peak having been turned into an amusement park).

Heard about the chains on Svens a while back and just sigh and shake my head. These days, a lotta people put in anchors because they're simply lazy and learned to climb in a gym. Some numbnut probably put the chains in above Quaker Oats so that he could run a slingshot toprope out there for classes or something. Bad reason, but I've heard some of the local guide people pretty much treat Svens like it's their own personal crag, so I wouldn't be surprised if...

I'd like to hear about other (strictly the added ones!) bolts that have magically shown up in the McDowells. The weather's nice, I dont' mind going for a hike with my crowbar and fixing what shouldn't have been done. I'm still trying to figure out why someone put a pair of bolts on the southeast corner of the summit Tom's Thumb.

Josh: lighten up a little. Nobody would advocate 1/4" bolts in this day and age. It's just stupid. 3/8" is no problem for replacement, and even preferred if you can get a clean redrill on the old hole to limit damage to the rock. And I wouldn't necessarily base any of my activities on ANYTHING Bob Blair advocates if I was you. Can you say extremist?

Again, before anyone goes running out there thinking bolts have been replaced because they have a new hanger on them, I've seen bolts (like the ones on the east side of the Hawk Boulder) that are still the originals that have had new hangers screwed down on them. The old bolts are probably not that bad in some cases, just good to be aware of what you might be whipping on.

Yes, the crags are worthy of respect. As are the first ascentionists.

Yes, Pinnacle Peak has turned into an amusement park.

Greg, thanks for the comments.


climblouisiana


Oct 21, 2004, 10:35 AM
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In reply to:
I think that replacing old 1/4 inchers change the commitment level of any given route. So Permission would be the best thing to do. Did the same person that replaced the bolts on sven slab also add the chains? I bet the shirt on my back .

I agree that it changes the commitment level of the route. If someone that was responsible replaced the 1/4" bolt with 3/8", I probably wouldn't be too mad about it.

As time goes by, the original intention or style of a crag's development may get lost due to the slippery slope of added hardware thus diminishing the developerss accomplishments and the experience of future climbers.

Hey Josh, Let's watch the "Eiger Sanction".


steelmonkey


Oct 22, 2004, 7:41 AM
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climblouisiana wrote:
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I know that Mary put them in there, Greg. I'm sure he was also responsible for adding bolts to [pretty much all the bolted routes at PP] and others I can't remember. I wonder if the First acentionists gave him permission. ha ha.

I just want to make sure everyone knows who's doing the drilling out there. Sometimes when I'm ragging on Marty for this stuff, I wonder if anyone else cares (or knows). He doesn't so far... I'm just noise.

He added the bolts to "make it safe" supposedly and at the behest of the City of Scottsdale (who I'm pretty sure depends on Marty to give them the definition of "safe" when it comes to climbing protection). From what I can tell, for most of today's climbers, "safe" means no possibility of injury instead of the older version where you don't die. It blows my mind that we've gone so far as to retrobolt one of the nicest old school crags in Phoenix because gym climbers expect more protection.

In reply to:
As time goes by, the original intention or style of a crag's development may get lost due to the slippery slope of added hardware thus diminishing the developers accomplishments and the experience of future climbers.

Nice comment. It seems to me that it's up to the climbers who still care to try to maintain the "experience and style" of the Phoenix granite areas. Obviously Pinnacle Peak has been eliminated from this category, Troon is all but gone and all the other areas may soon be eliminated as well. I guess until that day comes, we'll need to keep our eyes open and make sure that bolters are aware that anything out-of-bounds that is found on established climbs is going to meet with the business end of a crowbar. Pretty much our only recourse or means of deterrence. All I ask (or hope for) is that people do the job right. Pull it, go easy on the rock, if the bolt breaks, try to push it back in and patch the hole as well as you can with epoxy and crushed rock.

I'm pretty sure that virtually all of the old school route developers (Bob Blair might be an exception) would find it completely appropriate to replace old rusty quarter-inch bolts with their modern 3/8" counterparts. The real popular bolt around here for years, however, was the old self-drilling type with the jagged edge along the bottom that drilled it's own 1/2" hole. Sometimes took more than one of those to drill a hole in the granite around here as the teeth broke off. If it makes Josh feel better, I'd be happy to ask the ones I can contact. For most routes, I'd just have to ask Ficker, which makes it easier. :D

For what it's worth...
Manny Rangle and I (mostly Manny so far) have been trying to contact and arrange a meeting with someone from the Superstitions (TNF) in order to try to strike up a dialogue about some sort of bolt-replacement program before someone dies out there. I hope to get this effort rolling again this fall to see if something can be done. The situation is ridiculous out there right now. So far, they're not being particularly helpful.

In reply to:
Also the bees at the top of BEEGEE are getting
closer to see their maker if they haven't already.

We always used to joke about getting a gallon of gas and pouring it down the crack from above and lighting them up to get them out of there. Would have been an interesting sight, to say the least, especially if we'd done it at night... :lol:


tanthalas39


Jan 28, 2007, 5:57 PM
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Re: [danpayne] Mcdowell Bolt Choppers Needed! [In reply to]
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Well, I know this is literally years later, but just in case anyone is reading this and wonders how it all panned out... the offending chains are gone. I led Sinkso and Ego Trip today (hey, someone DOES lead something other than Quaker Oats!), and the only anchor at the top was the previously mentioned huge AMC ring.

/In the interest of full disclosure, I onsighted both climbs today, but I used the same last bolt for BOTH climbs, which now reading the guidebook, apparently I'm not supposed to do for Sinkso. Oh well.

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