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estherator


Nov 30, 2004, 8:29 AM
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Really just a long winded boulder problem? It's been so long since I've really been into sport-I've been bouldering and trad climbing the past year-that I've been wondering if I'll ever feel the impulse to get back on a rope for sport.


kalcario


Nov 30, 2004, 8:35 AM
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You know how most of the best boulder problems are overhanging?

Guess what...most of the best roped climbs are too.

But by all means, stick to your trad guns...don't be a little piss-ant boulderer all your life...


clausti


Nov 30, 2004, 8:40 AM
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edit: delete.


caughtinside


Nov 30, 2004, 8:42 AM
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Well, if you can't see how a 30m overhang would be fun, then yeah, maybe sport climbing isn't for you. 8^)


snars


Nov 30, 2004, 8:57 AM
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Really just a long winded boulder problem? It's been so long since I've really been into sport-I've been bouldering and trad climbing the past year-that I've been wondering if I'll ever feel the impulse to get back on a rope for sport.
I hear you..sport just isn't Real Climbing, it lacks the Zen of bouldering or trad :D


t-dog
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Nov 30, 2004, 9:11 AM
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we could just as easily say that a typical trad route is nothing but an easy sport route with mind-f--- clips.

True, but at lest you get to clip from holds you can sort of rest on, as opposed to sport climbing where you often times get tired clipping


overlord


Nov 30, 2004, 9:16 AM
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youre comparing apples and oranges here. typical sport climb requres more endurance than a boulder problem. its like 5 or 6+ boulder problems in a row. trad is kinda like sport just clipping takes longer (and isnt 99%+ safe).

no form of climbig is "better". enjoy whatever you like. who knows, maybe youre the next aid wiz that the climbing world will gawk at hes accomplishments.


jcr


Nov 30, 2004, 9:22 AM
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Climbing will always be climbing... no matter in what package it comes in. Dont know why people bother and go through all the trouble of critizising each category of a sport we love, instead of enjoying it. Any type of climbing has its own type of challenge.

Hell, no matter which type of climbing Im doing... I enjoy it. 8^)

JC


photon


Nov 30, 2004, 9:27 AM
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"I hear you..sport just isn't Real Climbing, it lacks the Zen of bouldering or trad "

I hear you, you just suck REALly bad at sport climbing, that's why it isn't Zen to yoiu


crackmd


Nov 30, 2004, 9:37 AM
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I am constantly going through phases in my climbing between sport and trad. Never been into bouldering except I love traversing; I like being on route for long periods of time. Both types of climbing (sport and trad)seem to complement each other and one could say the same about bouldering with trad. Doing a wide variety of climbing makes you a stronger climber in each discipline. With more experience the distinction between types of climbing become much greyer. In saying this I mean that there have been countless occasions when on a "sport" route I have used a key fingerlock or jam to rest on allowing me to recover for a crux. On the flip side it not uncommon for me to use a drop knee or flag to span through a difficult span of crack. Sure placing pro adds an extra challenge, but that is mitigated with experience and choosing well-protected routes. Bouldering will definitely help your trad climbing and probably vise versa. Sport climbing will probably augment your bouldering and trad climbing, but there is no reason to do it if you are not into it.


subtle


Nov 30, 2004, 9:38 AM
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Ahhhh, just to get to the crux of the matter, as it were...all together now:

1. Whatever things I climb are spiritual/rad/stylish and your stuff is just wanking/boring/easy.
2. You need true grit and a large manly...skill set...to do my style of climbing, whereas yours is practiced by morons/degenerates/fat uncool people.
3. Bouldering is obviously for middle school drop-outs that can't afford food or attract members of the opposite sex.
4. Sport climbing is obviously for spandex-clad posuers who don't like danger and probably use hair mousse.
5. Trad is obviously for old fat people who can't climb anything hard and therefore try to die from shame by never clipping any pro.
6. Ice climbing is obviously for people who aspired to be evil villians, but never got the whole cape and sidekick thing together.

As patently uncool as climbers are, it's amazing the parking lot at the crag is so full...


crackmd


Nov 30, 2004, 9:54 AM
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In reply to:
trad is kinda like sport just clipping takes longer (and isnt 99%+ safe).

I think this is an oversimplification. Trad climbing done safely and competently is just as safe as sport climbing. Most people have to drop down 2 to 4 numbers from their sport limits to achieve this competence. If you don't trust your gear then obviously the perception will be that the climbing is unsafe. There is no reason to think that a well-placed stopper or cam in good rock is any less bomber than a bolt. It takes a few years of trad climbing for most people to realize this and start to push their limits on trad climbs.
The other distinction comes between sport climbs and trad-bolted face climbs. There is no doubt that there is a psychological difference. On ground up/trad bolted faces it seems like you are always climbing above your pro as opposed to sport climbs where there are usually enough bolts to keep you from getting scared.


climb_plastic


Nov 30, 2004, 10:59 AM
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Trad climbing done safely and competently is just as safe as sport climbing.

Now you just took away the trad climbers excuse for climbing 5.8s max.

I think the three disciplines, bouldering/sport/trad, are different in how much power and endurance you need. If you have a lot of power but less endurance then you'll be good at bouldering. If you have a good combination of both power and endurance then sport would be a good choice for you. If you have no power and no endurance then you can climb trad and climb 5.8s....oh, but they're mentally tough 5.8s! J/K.


Partner gamehendge


Nov 30, 2004, 11:51 AM
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I hear you..sport just isn't Real Climbing, it lacks the Zen of bouldering or trad

I do both equally and just starting to really get into trad, and IMHO each one helps me climb better in the other aspects. Have you ever climbed a full rope lenght sustained overhanging 5.11 (which by all means isn't too hard for many)? While I enjoy crankin out boulder problems trying to achieve the next V whatever, I get alot of enjoyment and what you call "zen" in doing a sport route that is equivalent to 5-6 V3 boulder routes in a row. But to each is his/her own.


moroneyp


Dec 2, 2004, 5:55 AM
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Well, if you can't see how a 30m overhang would be fun, then yeah, maybe sport climbing isn't for you. 8^)

Speaking as a boulder...

For the love of God man, how does anyone find a 30m overhang fun?? :?


moroneyp


Dec 2, 2004, 5:57 AM
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Ahhhh, just to get to the crux of the matter, as it were...all together now:

1. Whatever things I climb are spiritual/rad/stylish and your stuff is just wanking/boring/easy.
2. You need true grit and a large manly...skill set...to do my style of climbing, whereas yours is practiced by morons/degenerates/fat uncool people.
3. Bouldering is obviously for middle school drop-outs that can't afford food or attract members of the opposite sex.
4. Sport climbing is obviously for spandex-clad posuers who don't like danger and probably use hair mousse.
5. Trad is obviously for old fat people who can't climb anything hard and therefore try to die from shame by never clipping any pro.
6. Ice climbing is obviously for people who aspired to be evil villians, but never got the whole cape and sidekick thing together.

As patently uncool as climbers are, it's amazing the parking lot at the crag is so full...

Brilliant... Its the best answer i've heard to all these flame wars over the different types of climbing!!


illimaniman


Dec 2, 2004, 6:28 AM
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Speaking as a boulder...

That's funny.


moroneyp


Dec 2, 2004, 7:24 AM
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Speaking as a boulder...

That's funny.
Ah, of all the times to type the wrong word.... Hit my head too many times falling off the blasted things, its bound to do some damage eventually... :lol:


ikellen


Dec 2, 2004, 9:15 PM
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I think bouldering is alot different then sport climbing, or atleast the climbers are different. Almost all the people I know that boulder alot hate leading, and they usually get pumped out quickly on sport routes (i.e they have no endurance). I'm talking like after two clips on routes that are far easier than the boulder problems they climb. So sport climbing isnt just roped bouldering, it is climbing actual routes.


glyrocks


Dec 2, 2004, 9:29 PM
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Has anyone seen that dead horse I was beating?


cgailey


Dec 2, 2004, 10:43 PM
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Has anyone seen that dead horse I was beating?

You mean this one :deadhorse: ?


healyje


Dec 3, 2004, 3:21 AM
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Having watched "sport" climbing evolve from the beginning, I've always felt the the real signature of sport climbing isn't the form of protection, but rather the legitimazation of hangdogging. What really defines sport climbing is the style ethic (hanging), not the pro.

The prevailing trad ethic was always falling - no hang[dogg]ing allowed. Sport climbing 'bailed' on that convention and while they were at it simply dispensed with trad pro as a distraction as well (but then, only about half or less of trad climbers back then were ever really good, comfortable, and confident with pro anyway). But the distinction between falling and hanging is really what's at the heart of things.

This key distinction is what estherator was referring to when s/he posed this question to begin with and I agree with their perception. I've always considered sport climbing to be a form of "Aerial Bouldering" in that by hanging you are simply "bringing the ground up" with you as you go. I've also always wished that routes done with this "sport" style ethic were designated as such with the addition of an "AB", "S", or "H" style attribute, e.g. 5.11c (AB), so you'd know whether a route was put up with a [trad] clean or sport ethic (regardless of whether you protected the route with gear or bolts). I believe that would have gone a long way to calming the initial rift between the two camps (over style that is - bolting is another matter altogether...).

We old guys aren't stupid either and have always been willing to acknowledge that it [generally] isn't possible to put up quality new routes with a trad ethic (onsight, ground up, no cleaning, no preplacement of gear, no previewing, and *especially* - no hanging) when you're playing in the 5.12+ and above neighborhood. But what I think has been disheartening to a lot of old trad climbers is the general loss of that "no hanging" style ethic and the [retro-]application of hang[dogg]ing from extreme routes where it has obvious legitimacy back on to more pedestrian routes (5.0-5.11) where, from that 'old-timey' perspective, it has none at all. [Nothing is harder on an old trad purist than watching folks hang all over a 5.8 - bolted or trad protected...]

This is a radical shift in mentality and approach that is best evidenced over decades - in the old days you went to a place like Eldorado or the Gunks and you heard people yelling "falling" all day long, whereas now it's a pretty uniform chorus of "Take" - and that from folks using trad gear as well as sport. If you aren't an old person who was climbing in those days you can't really perceive how pronounced the difference is today.

Many of us believe that two decades of gyms and "Take" have led to very different perception of what climbing is all about. We see more and more folks whose first climbing experience was indoors simply looking to replicate their [absolutely, positively safe, gearless] gym experience outside and are ready, willing, and able to shape (bolt) the rock into gym-like submission to get it. And that in a nutshell, and to answer jcr's question earlier in this thread, is why sometimes we can't simply "always get along...".

[P.S. Trad or sport, the only thing better than a 30M overhang is a 30M overhang with 4M roof at the end of it...]


glyrocks


Dec 3, 2004, 7:37 AM
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Why yes, I do believe that is the one.


fracture


Dec 3, 2004, 7:42 AM
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Having watched "sport" climbing evolve from the beginning, I've always felt the the real signature of sport climbing isn't the form of protection, but rather the legitimazation of hangdogging. What really defines sport climbing is the style ethic (hanging), not the pro.

I generally agree; but the other factor is well-protected, safe routes (with fixed gear).

When I climb on a well-protected gear route, I essentially sport climb---take falls, hang, work moves, etc. I'm sure that totally pisses you off, too. :lol:

In reply to:
The prevailing trad ethic was always falling - no hang[dogg]ing allowed.

Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!

In reply to:
This is a radical shift in mentality and approach that is best evidenced over decades - in the old days you went to a place like Eldorado or the Gunks and you heard people yelling "falling" all day long, whereas now it's a pretty uniform chorus of "Take" - and that from folks using trad gear as well as sport. If you aren't an old person who was climbing in those days you can't really perceive how pronounced the difference is today.

Sport ethics have won (even on "trad" climbs) for a reason---your way doesn't make logical sense. Ground up? But I can freaking walk to the top of the cliff! No hanging? But I'll redpoint it more than twice as fast. Don't fall? Then why would I bother to clip any pro? Wtf?

Your way of climbing is obsolete and more contrived. Most modern climbers are interested in the climbing. That is, the movement on the rock. We don't care about the neo-random "ethical" rules of days past.


healyje


Dec 3, 2004, 9:23 AM
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I generally agree; but the other factor is well-protected, safe routes (with fixed gear).

When I climb on a well-protected gear route, I essentially sport climb---take falls, hang, work moves, etc. I'm sure that totally pisses you off, too. :lol:

Again, it's a style ethic, but one that many of us feel essentially erodes the development of confidence, courage, and boldness. While more and more people climb, a smaller and smaller percentage of them have a sense of adventure, bold ethics, and respect for the rock.

In reply to:
Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!


Fracture, we've had this discussion before - aid is aid, free climbing is free climbing - aid is what we do to move up rock at the end of the free climbing road. As our collective abilities evolve aid routes get freed. Aid is completely legitimate and if your average sport climber is nervous or scared of trad climbing, than the odds of them wandering into real aid territory are pretty damn slim.

In reply to:
Sport ethics have won (even on "trad" climbs) for a reason---your way doesn't make logical sense. Ground up? But I can freaking walk to the top of the cliff! No hanging? But I'll redpoint it more than twice as fast. Don't fall? Then why would I bother to clip any pro? Wtf?

So has McDonalds and obesity won for a reason - your way doesn't make logical sense. Shop for food? But I can freaking just drive thru the window! Cook? But I'll eat it more than twice as fast. Stay in shape? Then why would I bother to eat at all? wtf?

In reply to:
Your way of climbing is obsolete and more contrived. Most modern climbers are interested in the climbing. That is, the movement on the rock. We don't care about the neo-random "ethical" rules of days past.

Or your way of climbing is suburban and more banal. Most modern climbers are only interested in a one dimensional, simple vs. complex, unintegrated (why golly, then I'd have to learn to think, climb, and be bold all at the same time). If we still had those neo-random "ethical" rules of days past we wouldn't have access problems, crowds, or those yellow and red "billion bolts sold" signs at the entrance to every climbing area...


jt512


Dec 3, 2004, 10:16 AM
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The prevailing trad ethic was always falling - no hang[dogg]ing allowed.

The prevailing ethic was falling and lowering to the ground, and making every subsequent attempt from the ground up. Hangdogging isn't defined by taking instead of falling, but rather by not lowering to the ground after you've weighted the rope. It is simply a more efficient means of learning to climb harder: you can work a problem move repeatedly, if necessary, without having to repeat the entire climb just to get one more shot at the move. Ideally, in sport climbing, the decision to "take" should be motivated by efficient redpoint tactics, not by lack of "boldness." While you're still working out moves it is a waste of energy to always climb till you fall.

-Jay


healyje


Dec 3, 2004, 12:38 PM
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The prevailing ethic was falling and lowering to the ground, and making every subsequent attempt from the ground up. Hangdogging isn't defined by taking instead of falling, but rather by not lowering to the ground after you've weighted the rope.

Jay, I'll buy into that clarification of the definition, I still lower to the belay and pull the rope, reclipping on subsequent attempts on both trad and bolt protected routes, indoors and out...

In reply to:
It is simply a more efficient means of learning to climb harder: you can work a problem move repeatedly, if necessary, without having to repeat the entire climb just to get one more shot at the move. Ideally, in sport climbing, the decision to "take" should be motivated by efficient redpoint tactics, not by lack of "boldness." While you're still working out moves it is a waste of energy to always climb till you fall.

I'll also buy the use of hanging in the context of the "redpoint" ethic and rationale. I do certainly recognize the efficiency in working through the moves on routes this way. I just don't happen to buy into it for myself as I like to approach routes as ground up puzzles and feel that focusing on that aspect of developing/maintaining physical abilities can have the side effect of work against you relative to developing the integrated physical/mental/emotional skillset that I feel is important in trad climbing - particularly those you need to bring to bear in runout situations where you are going to have to perform on the spot, fall, or downclimb rather than hang and work through it...


allan_thomson


Dec 3, 2004, 12:43 PM
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[quote="clausti"]I mean, if we're going to be throwing things around here, we could just as easily say that a typical trad route is nothing but an easy sport route with mind-f--- clips.
quote]

Bit more than just a mind fuck when you're hanging around trying to place gear, hoping you can get it placed good and get to a good stance where you can take a rest. I didn't think onsight was quite so important in sports.


allan_thomson


Dec 3, 2004, 12:56 PM
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Sport ethics have won (even on "trad" climbs) for a reason---your way doesn't make logical sense. Ground up? But I can freaking walk to the top of the cliff! No hanging? But I'll redpoint it more than twice as fast. Don't fall? Then why would I bother to clip any pro? Wtf?

Your way of climbing is obsolete and more contrived. Most modern climbers are interested in the climbing. That is, the movement on the rock. We don't care about the neo-random "ethical" rules of days past.

Wtf!!???!!!! The gear is there to makes sure the impact of your fall isn't too great. Trad ethics are better, as to be able to onsight a climb without falling is the ultimate aim (even in sports - are you telling me you aim to fall!!???!!!). If you can't onsight it, then really you don't climb at that grade. Saying anything else, is just pretension. We can all inch ourselves up a climb bit by bit, but it takes a heck of a lot more to do it in one.

Trad is not the past. It should be the ultimate aim, as only then can you actually claim to have reached the peak of your climbing - think about it, being able to climb from the ground up and hanging about and placing gear, reliant on your own bodies stamina, not just inching yourself up by clipping into periodically placed bolts, then being able to take a rest when it suits you.


fracture


Dec 3, 2004, 1:02 PM
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In reply to:
Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!


Fracture, we've had this discussion before - aid is aid, free climbing is free climbing - aid is what we do to move up rock at the end of the free climbing road. As our collective abilities evolve aid routes get freed. Aid is completely legitimate and if your average sport climber is nervous or scared of trad climbing, than the odds of them wandering into real aid territory are pretty damn slim.

Are you suggesting that it is only ok to aid something if it is too hard to be free climbed? The Salathe is only 5.13c---not uber-hard by modern standards, except that the hard pitches are high up on a big wall. Yes, too hard for Robbins, but why would you say it was ok for him to hangdog it and not free it but bad style for the Hubers (et al) to hangdog it in order to subsequently climb it free?

Where's the consistency?

In reply to:
If we still had those neo-random "ethical" rules of days past we wouldn't have access problems, ...

This is beyond bogus.


fracture


Dec 3, 2004, 1:24 PM
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... to be able to onsight a climb without falling is the ultimate aim...

Not to me; I find redpointing far more fun than onsighting.

In reply to:
(even in sports - are you telling me you aim to fall!!???!!!)

Pretty much. Nearly every time I go sport climbing I expect to take several falls, unless I'm taking it easy for some reason.

In reply to:
If you can't onsight it, then really you don't climb at that grade.

This is a semantic issue, and in comparison to actual language usage you are incorrect---people talk about "5.14 climbers" all the time, and there are only a dozen or so people who have onsighted 14a, and only one person who has onsighted 14b.

What does a "5.X climber" mean, if not someone who can climb a 5.X? There is no "onsight" in that.

In reply to:
Trad is not the past.

I don't think you understand the concept of "tradition". :lol:


Partner angry


Dec 3, 2004, 1:37 PM
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This sort of thing pisses me off. Why does everyone automatically assume that pure traddies lead 5.8 max? That's bullsh!t.

I have done 2 sport routes in the last 4 years. I onsight 11+ trad with impunity and my project/redpoint level is higher. I have a buddy who is a bigger elitist than me, and is WAAAAY stronger. He doesn't do sport either.

Trad does not equal weak!!!!

Weak trad climbers are weak, not trad. Just as weak sport climbers are a reflection of their weakness, not their (ghey) discipline.


photon


Dec 3, 2004, 1:41 PM
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you'd be considered pretty weak at most sport-climbing areas dude
5.11 = warm up, hope that cheers you up


Partner pt


Dec 3, 2004, 1:54 PM
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In reply to:
you'd be considered pretty weak at most sport-climbing areas dude
5.11 = warm up, hope that cheers you up

Whatever; Most sport only climbers couldn't touch 11+ trad, not because they're scared, but because it's hard. Most 5.11 sport routes I've done are far easier than a similiarly graded trad route. I'm not dogging (no pun intended!) sport climbing either, I just think the ratings are a bit different, especially at old school areas such as Eldo or Vedauwoo.


photon


Dec 3, 2004, 2:37 PM
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"Whatever; Most sport only climbers couldn't touch 11+ trad, not because they're scared, but because it's hard. Most 5.11 sport routes I've done are far easier than a similiarly graded trad route. I'm not dogging (no pun intended!) sport climbing either, I just think the ratings are a bit different, especially at old school areas such as Eldo or Vedauwoo."

Whatever: Most trad only climbers couldn't touch 11+sport, not because they're scared, but becasue it's hard. Now since it appears that you are a stronger sport climber than trad climber you really shouldn't use yourself to prove your sport only climbers couldn't theory huh? I don't know I onsited Max Factor and I can think of a few sport climbs of that grade that I haven't onsited. So now what?


healyje


Dec 3, 2004, 2:40 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!


Fracture, we've had this discussion before - aid is aid, free climbing is free climbing - aid is what we do to move up rock at the end of the free climbing road. As our collective abilities evolve aid routes get freed. Aid is completely legitimate and if your average sport climber is nervous or scared of trad climbing, than the odds of them wandering into real aid territory are pretty damn slim.

Are you suggesting that it is only ok to aid something if it is too hard to be free climbed? The Salathe is only 5.13c---not uber-hard by modern standards, except that the hard pitches are high up on a big wall. Yes, too hard for Robbins, but why would you say it was ok for him to hangdog it and not free it but bad style for the Hubers (et al) to hangdog it in order to subsequently climb it free?

Where's the consistency?

In reply to:
If we still had those neo-random "ethical" rules of days past we wouldn't have access problems, ...

This is beyond bogus.

Fracture - you seem to have some problem with aid climbing being a legitimate type of climbing and want to continually mix the definitions and application of dogging and aid climbing - this is really a semantic stretch and isn't valid at all except in the most tenuous and abstract context for the sake of argument. You'll note my comment was time indexed relative to what was aided when 5.11's were as hard as free routes got isn't the same today where many of those aid pitches have been or are being freed now. Again, do you have some basic problem with aid climbing or do you simply use its existence as a rationale for dogging?

Talk aid or talk dogging and when talking either be clear to time index your comments - Robbins and Hubers climb[ed] in entirely different times and contexts. The Hubers freed a lot of these pitch with siege/sport tactics and I suspect that is the only way those pitches could be freed and that onsights simply weren't possible or realistic. And when you're up in the 5.12+ range that should probably be expected. The number of clean, onsight FA's decline pretty damn rapidly past that difficulty...

[Oh, and beyond bogus the comment isn't, if bolts had been used judiciously in line with trad ethics strictly as a pro-of-last-resort and there were no clip-n-go sport routes I suspect we'd have 85-90% fewer climbers in the world today. Elitist? Not really, just selfish - I don't like crowds, or the bolting of routes and access issues that follow them and have never felt any need to introduce the suburban hordes to climbing (or make a buck off of them in the process)...]


Partner pt


Dec 3, 2004, 2:49 PM
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Now since it appears that you are a stronger sport climber than trad climber you really shouldn't use yourself to prove your sport only climbers couldn't theory huh?

Why do you think I'm a better sport climber than trad climber? Actually, I climb pretty equal in terms of difficulty (sport vs trad) but I almost exclusively climb trad. So what does that mean?


fracture


Dec 3, 2004, 3:45 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Where's the consistency?

Fracture - you seem to have some problem with aid climbing being a legitimate type of climbing ...

No; and I have done some (easy) aid climbing and enjoy it. I also use aid (french free) on most of my sport projects before I eventually redpoint them.

The point I'm making is that aid climbing (which is traditionally a type of climbing) is hangdogging, yet you are not consistently applying your scorn to aid.

Why don't you enumerate the conditions under which hanging on gear is acceptable? Clearly you don't universally find it unacceptable.

In reply to:
You'll note my comment was time indexed relative to what was aided when 5.11's were as hard as free routes got isn't the same today where many of those aid pitches have been or are being freed now.

The first 10 pitches of Salathe Wall (Free Blast) contains only 2 5.11's. Yet it didn't get an all-free ascent until over a decade after Robbins hangdogged his way up it. Supertopo says the pro is all C2 or better....so what gives?

You didn't answer my question about whether the difficulty is what makes it ok (in your mind) to use aid (hangdog). Was it ok (in your mind) for Robbins to hangdog Free Blast, simply because he couldn't have free climbed it? If so, does it matter what the collective ability level is, or what the individual ability level is?

John Gill did a 5.13+ (V9) boulder problem in 1959---two years before Royal hangdogged his way up a 5.11b. Similarly, now that the 5.13 pitches on the Salathe headwall are well within the collective free-climbing ability of modern climbers, certainly you don't consider all aid ascents of said pitches unethical (or do you?). So it can't be collective ability....

I hangdog/aid my way up my sport projects the first time I get on them because they are too hard for me to link it on my first try. Yet you consider that bad style/ethics. So it can't be about individual ability either....

It's difficult to be ok with aid but not sport and keep your dogma consistent....

In reply to:
The Hubers freed a lot of these pitch with siege/sport tactics and I suspect that is the only way those pitches could be freed and that onsights simply weren't possible or realistic.

For the Hubers, yes, but Yuji Hirayama (an evil, hangdogging sport climber) nearly onsighted Salathe (4 falls on his first try), and later did it from bottom to top in a day with no falls. 8^)

In reply to:
[Oh, and beyond bogus the comment isn't, if bolts had been used judiciously in line with trad ethics strictly as a pro-of-last-resort and there were no clip-n-go sport routes I suspect we'd have 85-90% fewer climbers in the world today. Elitist? Not really, just selfish - I don't like crowds, or the bolting of routes and access issues that follow them and have never felt any need to introduce the suburban hordes to climbing (or make a buck off of them)...]

I don't disagree with the number-of-climbers part (and I agree that it is selfish). What I disagree with is the broad "access issues" comment.

If anything, one could argue that more climbers means a larger interest group, forcing parks to deal with climbers and accept them as valid users. One could also argue that well-protected routes could reduce accidents (or rather the seriousness of the accidents that do occur) and thus the perception of climbing as a reckless, fringe, xtreme sport that makes some land managers uneasy about climbing.

Of course, in reality it simply depends on the specific circumstances. But it should be noted that very few nonclimbers give two shits whether people are putting bolts in the rock.


Partner angry


Dec 3, 2004, 4:09 PM
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Photon, Max Factor is a unique route. It is way pumpy, and really takes sport climbng strength to do well, I expect you would do quite well on Devils Tower too. (I didn't onsight Max Factor, of course I tried it when I was a 5.9 leader).

Those routes do not make you a unified hard trad leader.

I'm not perfect, and I'm no stranger to the hang dog, but of all the areas I visit, I climb the trad lines at about the same level. Wide, short, long, thin, chossy, or Eldo, I stay about the same. My goal is to be solid at everything to 5.12+, maybe it's my upbringing but I have never thought of bolted lines as anything more than practice routes, to develop the finger strength to do certain trad lines. Naturally it soon made more sense to boulder than to climb sport. It develops the fingers and body better and is a wee bit more pure.

I also apologize for turning this thread into a numbers sprayfest. ::as fshizzle getts another ruthless beating from maculated::

I'm not sure what the original point is, but I'll just say that an 11+ trad leader would be far better in a sport climb than a sporto climbing trad, even if the gear was preplaced.


allan_thomson


Dec 4, 2004, 8:55 AM
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In reply to:
[quote="allan_thomson
In reply to:
Trad is not the past.

I don't think you understand the concept of "tradition". :lol:


I think I do. Just because something is established, doens't mean it can't be the future. Remember "Those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it". Tradition plays a very important part in life, and will do so in future. Don't ever pretend that it won't.

BTW, Digusting display of a lack of true ethics. Just shows you intend to remain a pretentious punter for the rest of your life.

Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad. Can you explain why now, the cutting edge of the climbing world aim to do sportslines in Trad? So much for being outdated eh? The ultimate aim is to be able to lead even higher grades, without the need to change the rock from how you find it. Bolts should merely be a transition stage, for the time it is impossible to lead those routes safely in Trad, until the ultimate aim of leading it trad it obtained.

The only ethic purer than Trad is free soloing. Long live the angle grinder!!!


allan_thomson


Dec 4, 2004, 9:01 AM
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In reply to:
"Whatever; Most sport only climbers couldn't touch 11+ trad, not because they're scared, but because it's hard. Most 5.11 sport routes I've done are far easier than a similiarly graded trad route. I'm not dogging (no pun intended!) sport climbing either, I just think the ratings are a bit different, especially at old school areas such as Eldo or Vedauwoo."

Whatever: Most trad only climbers couldn't touch 11+sport, not because they're scared, but becasue it's hard. Now since it appears that you are a stronger sport climber than trad climber you really shouldn't use yourself to prove your sport only climbers couldn't theory huh? I don't know I onsited Max Factor and I can think of a few sport climbs of that grade that I haven't onsited. So now what?

Bullsh1T!!! He's proving that despite being capable of leading harder in sports climbs, he is prepared to make a sacrifice of grades in order to display the better principles of taking the rock as it is. I would like to see you hanging around on a Trad routes, trying to get your first piece of gear in while your arms are pumped to f@ck, and then tell us that sports climbers are superior. It would probably be a bit difficult for you though, as you'd probably not have enough time between failing to get your first bit of gear in, and getting put into the back of an ambulance/morguewagon.


fracture


Dec 5, 2004, 4:13 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
[quote="allan_thomson
In reply to:
Trad is not the past.

I don't think you understand the concept of "tradition". :lol:


...

Tradition plays a very important part in life, and will do so in future. Don't ever pretend that it won't.

This concept is dangerous (in society, not climbing). Just because something has been done one way does not mean it must always be done that way. "Tradition" is just an excuse for people to stop thinking.

In reply to:
Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad.

What planet are you from?

Even most trad climbers admit that the opposite is the case.


jdiddy


Dec 5, 2004, 5:32 PM
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I dont know why I do it. Why in the world do I sit here and read these threads filled with ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!
The only thing that is more of a waste of time than me sitting here reading this crap, is the time the above authors spent writing and deliberating on such disputable matters!
It really makes me sick that our sport is filled with people who will argue over sub-divisions. Trad is trad. Sport is sport. Bouldering is bouldering. Ice is ice. Forget it!!! Enjoy what you do, respect what others enjoy!


photon


Dec 6, 2004, 9:04 AM
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allan_thomson wrote:

"I would like to see you hanging around on a Trad routes, trying to get your first piece of gear in while your arms are pumped to f@ck, and then tell us that sports climbers are superior.It would probably be a bit difficult for you though, as you'd probably not have enough time between failing to get your first bit of gear in, and getting put into the back of an ambulance/morguewagon."

Considering I mentioned that I onsited an 11c crack at Vedauwoo in my post above, in which I put at least 5-6 pieces of pro in and lived to write this post to you, I'll just assume you are too stupid to realize how stupid your are.


dingus


Dec 6, 2004, 9:13 AM
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The contention that most sport climbers couldn't lead a 5.11 trad line seems moot in light of the fact that most trad climbers can't either.

True.

DMT


Partner tradman


Dec 6, 2004, 9:24 AM
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Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad. Can you explain why now, the cutting edge of the climbing world aim to do sportslines in Trad? So much for being outdated eh?

Great post!

Stop me if I'm wrong, but historically, haven't aid lines been progressively freed as well? It certainly seems that the ethics gravitate towards trad, don't they?


dingus


Dec 6, 2004, 9:33 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad. Can you explain why now, the cutting edge of the climbing world aim to do sportslines in Trad? So much for being outdated eh?

Great post!

Stop me if I'm wrong, but historically, haven't aid lines been progressively freed as well? It certainly seems that the ethics gravitate towards trad, don't they?

Yeah, once all the cracks are de-dirted and the hairlines are bashed out to fingerlocks and all the chicken and retreat bolts have been placed and the belays are well documented and a few hundred ascents have smoothed out the rough edges. THEN we get to stylistic impovements... haha.

What's your problem with sport climbing again?

DMT


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 10:53 AM
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In reply to:

"I'll just assume you are too stupid to realize how stupid your are.

Much like yourself then????? Why not use the adjective grade to make it clear it is trad? I've put my grades into both USA, + UK, (UK adjective indicates it is trad). Do you not have the brains to do this? 5.11 does not to me indicate whether it is sports or Trad, whereas is you'd added E3 6a in brackets it would have, to expect me to know otherwise, without seeing the climb or being told if it was trad or sports is cretinous.

Anyway, I don't recall seeing you yourself actually saying that you had personally lead that, from the way you lay your postings out it looked like you were badly quoting the poster above. Perhaps in future better use of the quoting facilities would make your point clearer?


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 11:15 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad.

What planet are you from?

Even most trad climbers admit that the opposite is the case.

No, I think you will infact find, trad climbers do actually make more progress in sports than do sports in Trad. That is because trad originated climbers have the technical knowledge + the strength + stamina for sports climbing, whereas most sports originated climbers do not have the knowledge to place gear safely.

The only thing which would further delay a trad climber in making progress in sports is their onsight ethic, but then on the other hand a sports climber trying to readpoint a trad climb on poorly placed gear (cos they haven't the experience to place it properly) is more likely to get seriously injured, and put out the game for good.


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 11:22 AM
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all the chicken and retreat bolts have been placed
DMT

Not in the UK, they aren't. They'd be chopped within days.


crimpandgo


Dec 6, 2004, 11:32 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad.

What planet are you from?

Even most trad climbers admit that the opposite is the case.

No, I think you will infact find, trad climbers do actually make more progress in sports than do sports in Trad. That is because trad originated climbers have the technical knowledge + the strength + stamina for sports climbing, whereas most sports originated climbers do not have the knowledge to place gear safely.

The only thing which would further delay a trad climber in making progress in sports is their onsight ethic, but then on the other hand a sports climber trying to readpoint a trad climb on poorly placed gear (cos they haven't the experience to place it properly) is more likely to get seriously injured, and put out the game for good.

These statements are totally unfounded and cannot be supported. You should place the disclaimer that the above statements are your opinion because I am sure there are many folks out there that will prove your statements to be inaccuate.


I don't personally care about this subject, but to imply one type of climber/climbing type is better than another is ludicrous and impossible to support. If you talked about specific climbers maybe your arguements would be more meaningful/


photon


Dec 6, 2004, 11:33 AM
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Here's what I said:

" I don't know I onsited Max Factor and I can think of a few sport climbs of that grade that I haven't onsited. So now what?"

I saw no need to make a detailed post to explain everything to someone like yourself who doesn't have a clue what we were talking about. Notice, fshizzle's comments above, seems he knew exactly what I was talking about. Hmm, seems he had little trouble understanding my post, because he has been to Vedauwoo. Therefore, since I wasn't addressing you, you've never been to Vedauwoo and don't seem to be able to type Max Factor into the route database on this website, I can assure you that no quotations or other grammatical symbology I offer will cure your need to spew regardless of content and general laziness.


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 12:00 PM
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In reply to:
These statements are totally unfounded and cannot be supported. You should place the disclaimer that the above statements are your opinion because I am sure there are many folks out there that will prove your statements to be inaccuate.

Explain what skills are needed in sports climbing, that can't be found in Trad climbing?

The moves are the same, it is just that sports is more dynamic, whereas trad involves a lot of hanging around placing gear. The techniques required to make say for example a 6a move in sports are exactly the same required to make that 6a move in trad.

Therefore a trad climber can make faster progress in sports than a sports climber can in trad (as the purely sports climber would have no experience of placing gear, and so has to learn to do this, and do it safely (taking a big step down their grades), whereas a trad climber can carry on from their top trad grade, using the technical moves they learnt at trad, and use and develop their strenth (+ onsighting means they have a lot of stamina).

There is absolutely no way you can dispute this.


outdoorclimber


Dec 6, 2004, 12:08 PM
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All types of climbing have their time and place. They are all really fun and this can't be disproved (except for aid of course) :)


crimpandgo


Dec 6, 2004, 12:13 PM
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These statements are totally unfounded and cannot be supported. You should place the disclaimer that the above statements are your opinion because I am sure there are many folks out there that will prove your statements to be inaccuate.

Explain what skills are needed in sports climbing, that can't be found in Trad climbing?

The moves are the same, it is just that sports is more dynamic, whereas trad involves a lot of hanging around placing gear. The techniques required to make say for example a 6a move in sports are exactly the same required to make that 6a move in trad.

Therefore a trad climber can make faster progress in sports than a sports climber can in trad (as the purely sports climber would have no experience of placing gear, and so has to learn to do this, and do it safely (taking a big step down their grades), whereas a trad climber can carry on from their top trad grade, using the technical moves they learnt at trad, and use and develop their strenth (+ onsighting means they have a lot of stamina).

There is absolutely no way you can dispute this.

I have an issue with the statements bolded. My experience is that there are few sport climbers that do nothing but sport. Most that I know and have read about have done plenty of climbing that includes other disciplines such as trad. This is especially true amongst the community of sport climbers that have reached the ranks of 5.11 and above.

Your arguement assumes they have not climbed Trad at all. I would suggest this is an arrogant assumption. I would assume that if I met a 5.11 sport climber at the crags, that person has probably done lots of different climbing and has probably run laps on easier trad stuff if they have not done laps on harder stuff as well.

Then I have to ask, what really is the difference between the trad climber and the sport climber? Surely at the the skill levels you are talking about it is not purely the ability to place gear, because that can and should be learned on easier terrain?


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 11:55 PM
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Look, just accept, that what I am saying is, that someone who has purely done sport, is going to make less progress in trad, than someone who has purely done trad is in sport. We're not talking about those who have done a bit of both, that is a bit different. That is why I underlined the word Purely. Point taken?

Plus you're forgetting the need to play head games as well. running it out over a piece of gear which you aren't entirely convinced will hold takes a lot more mentally, than running it out over a bolt.

Plus there is the fact that if you rely on redpointing to push your grades, then on the higher grade Trad climbs (where there is increasingly less and less gear, and it is less certain to hold), you are going to be unable to do this, and so will probably either hit a mental block, or come a cropper.


guangzhou


Dec 7, 2004, 3:03 AM
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A strong confident climber will not mind running it out on climbing that feels easy to him. Therefore a strong sport climber may not see such climbing as technically chalenging and will not experience the same head games.

Someone in a previous post said that trad climbing is less dynamic then sport climbing. I don't agree with this statement. Go climb in the south east and you'll found some great, and very dynamic trad line up some very imposing looking faces.

I love this agument. Ever notice that top performing climber do it all and don't limit themslve to on style, one form, or one area..


Partner tradman


Dec 7, 2004, 4:30 AM
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What's your problem with sport climbing again?

No problem whatsoever.

I was simply commenting that it's interesting how ethics gravitate towards more "natural styles" - aid lines get freed, high-altitude siege routes get climbed alpine style, sport lines get sent trad and eventually, inevitably, someone goes for the free solo.

Interesting isn't it?

I'm not saying why this happens or whether it's "good" or not. I'll leave that up to what ever bizarre and convoluted measure you may choose to apply.

:wink:


robreglinski


Dec 7, 2004, 5:14 AM
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dammm guys this is going on a bit don’t you think
ok I’ve read this thread and it made me think. Basically you are arguing about what is climbing is it merely the skill of the person to scale a vertical rock face or is it more

Climbing is a way of life and, like everything in life, it has rules. these rules change from type to type and the change dictates what game your are playing (sport, trad, big wall)

Instead of slagging each other about whos style is best and why consider the following

Imo the different styles or "games climbers play" are listed below and you fall into one of these categories

Bouldering: where its just the climber versus the rock

Sport: Where the climber trusts another person’s skills (both in bolt placement and belaying) in order to maintain a life line

Crag: where the basic application of climbing related skills give a life line for the climber (note the first rule of trad climbing “the leader never falls”)

Multipitch: Where two climbers work together in order to retain a level of safety

Big wall: where a climber uses a greater volume of climbing related skills (eg aid) to scale faces requiring more than a day to complete

Alpine: where a climber uses the skills above (and more) to conquer a new range/level of hostile forces (extreme cold, bad weather....)

Super alpine: the same as below without the expedition techniques

Expedition: where the climber draws upon all skills available both from his team and from a support crew to conquer a massive challenge

Soloing: where its just the climber versus the rock (fall and die)

One is not better that the other your are still required to climb the route however the style that you choose can change the risk that you can take.

This is where ethics come into it coz if you bolt a crack then it’s unethical because you are changing the style at which the route was created and you are decreasing the danger. Also note that you can free a big wall and its not unethical because you are increasing the danger not decreasing it

Read the games climbers play by Ken Wilson im not going to plagiarise it anymore
Rob (UK trad monkey and Scottish Winter Mountaineer)
fire blanket ready


dingus


Dec 7, 2004, 7:18 AM
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I was simply commenting that it's interesting how ethics gravitate towards more "natural styles" - aid lines get freed, high-altitude siege routes get climbed alpine style, sport lines get sent trad and eventually, inevitably, someone goes for the free solo.

Interesting isn't it?

Uh, no, not really.

DMT


crimpandgo


Dec 7, 2004, 7:43 AM
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Look, just accept, that what I am saying is, that someone who has purely done sport, is going to make less progress in trad, than someone who has purely done trad is in sport. We're not talking about those who have done a bit of both, that is a bit different. That is why I underlined the word Purely. Point taken?

Plus you're forgetting the need to play head games as well. running it out over a piece of gear which you aren't entirely convinced will hold takes a lot more mentally, than running it out over a bolt.

Plus there is the fact that if you rely on redpointing to push your grades, then on the higher grade Trad climbs (where there is increasingly less and less gear, and it is less certain to hold), you are going to be unable to do this, and so will probably either hit a mental block, or come a cropper.

Your point is taken. I just dont agree with your point. Sorry. I don't think there are too many pure sport climbers at the grade levels you are talking about. Good examples are Tommy Caldwell and Sonnie Trotter. both are cutting edge sport climbers yet they put up some of the most killer "non-sport" routes in the world. Matter of fact, it seems vogue right now for these guys to break the image that folks like you have that they are just sport climbers. Many of the top climbers are going out and ticking some of the hardest non-sport lines. Beth Caldwell is pushing some of these limits recently as well.

There are climbers out there that are purely sport. there are climbers out there that are purely trad. But to say one will addapt quicker than the other is based on the person and not the style of climbing.


tommyt


Dec 7, 2004, 7:57 AM
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I believe it was John Sheman that summed it up humerously "Sport climbing is niether" I always thought that was funny.


healyje


Dec 7, 2004, 11:07 AM
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Fracture,

Haven't had a chance to get back to your post yet, but I will...

In the meantime I thought this was a revealing excerpt from the "No Crashpads Required" article on this site's home page about Croatian deep water soloing that speaks to what McClure and Sharma found so refreshing about this outing:

In reply to:
Cameras, film crews, even Jack Osbourne, all were there to record the madness. Said McClure, “This is the ethic: its ground up, you go till you drop. No working the moves, no dogging. If it’s really hard a peek from abseil is allowed to save days missing the hidden crimps. Its pure and simple, a journey into untouched territory, no ropes, no rules, just the desire to move over stone.........then a gaze out to sea, like that of some wizened mariner before taking the dive, a perfect arrow from 60 feet.”

The team established over 50 routes during the trip, culminating in McClure’s ultimate FA, Ring of Fire, f8b+ (5.14a). Sharma was up it second and confirmed the rating of the toughest DWS anywhere. The route is located on the Holy Grail Wall, Mana Island, begins with a 7m traverse and ends with a crux 9m above waterline.

Sounds a lot like they were really digging on that "no dogging" aspect of the old-timey trad ethic. I also find it interesting that when a lot of top sport folks reach their peaks what starts interesting them is trad climbing. Maybe there's hope yet for a renaissance yet...

I also think this quote:

In reply to:
Its pure and simple, a journey into untouched territory, no ropes, no rules, just the desire to move over stone....

captures what we can all agree on is the ideal (under circumstances where you won't [necessarily] die). But note: the "no rules" aspect of the excerpt that is a major contributing factor to their deep water bliss is due more to the fact that in [deep] soloing there are no rules necessary - no implicit game - but rather explicit realities that transcend any self-imposed rules.

The trad ethics I have always held dear mirror and recreate that pure onsight [deep] solo experience - only with the addition of a rope: climb ground up and when you can't climb anymore - you fall. You don't hang, which would be impossible on a solo. Again, the notion of ground up, climb until you fall, and no hanging being as close as you can get to a solo experience with a rope on is what it's all about and central to the core of the trad ethic. By comparison, the use of [trad] gear is almost a peripheral matter. Staying close to those imposed [soloing] realities was always the whole point of climbing/leading for my partners and I.


hape234


Dec 7, 2004, 3:56 PM
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fracture said

[For the Hubers, yes, but Yuji Hirayama (an evil, hangdogging sport climber) nearly onsighted Salathe (4 falls on his first try), and later did it from bottom to top in a day with no falls. ]


How the h3ll can you say that he nearly onsighted it with four falls. Dont get me wrong, if he eventually ticked a super hard grade, thats an achievement, but dont mix a great achievement with trying to taint the purity of what an onsight means. Onsighting a climb is the best one can hope for, and it involves no falling. Four falls is a hell of a way off an onsight.

As for this stUpid thread as to semantic and philosiphical debates on whether sport beats trad, it almost, ALMOST comes close to that thread recently posted stating that people only climb trad caus they're too weak to boulder. Leave chossy sh!t like this in the corner of the crag. noone want to see it.. climbing is there for personal achievement. you want to show off how good you are or how ripped you are, go to the climbing gym and impress the plebs'. you want to bag other climbing styles caus you dont understand them, i pity you. and for those of you who can appreciate climbing for what it is, im sure i will see you at the crags giving it your all and having a blast, no matter the style of climbing.

Why does it always seem to be everyone having a go at trad climbing. must be jealousy or something, caus it's at least as legit and skillfull as any other type of climbing. just caus there are people out there that can only climb 5.8 trad doesnt mean that trad climbers are weak,cant sport or boulder or that you cant trad 5.12. there's also nothing wrong with those people, caus they're out there ENJOYING climbing, not sitting here bagging other types of climbing.


dingus


Dec 7, 2004, 4:28 PM
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Staying close to those imposed [soloing] realities was always the whole point of climbing/leading for my partners and I.

Was it REALLY the whole point of climbing, this adherence to some stylistic imposition? Really?

Were you guys really so starry eyed idealistic that concerns over style overrode all? Jeez, I hope for your sake that you climbed for fun and to hear the wind whistling through the holes in your head, like most sensible climbers! Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!

See, while I love a good ethics discussion, ethics are not the point of my climbing, not remotely, never have been and never will be. I would not say, for example, that "if I can't trad I refuse to climb at all." Nope.

Hell, I once nailed a wooden-hold route onto the side of a barn I didn't own and proceeded to joyfully climb that thing so many times the black streaks gave me away to the owner, lol! Twas pre-gym era. He sure was pissed. How's this for climbing ethics? - - -

"Dingus, how would you like it if I came over later and nailed a bunch of these goddamned holds to your truck??? I bet you wouldn't like that much, now would you???"

See, when he put it like that, climbing ethics took a whole new spin, hehe. Spin, get it???

I didn't quote it but you hoped for a rennaisance in trad climbing or words to that affect. Why? Why is it important that others adopt your stylistic creed? I'm not saying you're foisting them upon unwilling recepients, you don't come across that way.

But while I don't climb strictly to adhere to some creed concerning safety equipment, which is the sum total of the entire debate, a freaking safety debate haha, I also don't have a big desire to see others 'do as I do.' Part of me doesn't even want others doing as I do.

Other than to respect local ethics, of course! To my thinking, the only important climbing ethics are those designed to help us all get along and share a public resource. But I pretty much reject any path that includes no give with the take. You rule out sport climbing and you have lost an ear to your WAY. You want me to be open, I require reciprocation!

I guess I don't understand your jihad dude. Come on man, step into the 21st century. I started climbing on the 70's too, things evolve. Hook up with some other old timer and go sport climbing on something that really works you. Give it a try! If you hook up with some folks who know how to do it they can give you a jump start.

I've recently climbed with a 60+ year old retiree who leads stout 11's and works 12's. He also has sent some of the proudest trad lines in the state too.

I think that dude ROCKS! He climbs freaking circles around me, on ANY terrain! Friendly to strangers, not an unkind word to say about anyone it seems. I want to be more like him, not less. I have a long way to go...

DMT


fracture


Dec 7, 2004, 9:20 PM
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fracture said

[For the Hubers, yes, but Yuji Hirayama (an evil, hangdogging sport climber) nearly onsighted Salathe (4 falls on his first try), and later did it from bottom to top in a day with no falls. ]


How the h3ll can you say that he nearly onsighted it with four falls. Dont get me wrong, if he eventually ticked a super hard grade, thats an achievement, but dont mix a great achievement with trying to taint the purity of what an onsight means. Onsighting a climb is the best one can hope for, and it involves no falling. Four falls is a hell of a way off an onsight.

Do you realize that the route we are talking about is a grade VI? It's something like 37 pitches. What "nearly onsighted it" means in this bigwall context is that he onsighted the vast majority of the pitches (many of them decently hard), and did the rest generally on the first redpoint attempt.


hape234


Dec 7, 2004, 9:41 PM
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actually no i didnt know that fracture. take that back and my apologies to you on that.


Partner tyify


Dec 7, 2004, 9:57 PM
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tyify moved this thread [In reply to]
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tyify moved this thread from General to Sport Climbing.


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 2:03 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Staying close to those imposed [soloing] realities was always the whole point of climbing/leading for my partners and I.


Was it REALLY the whole point of climbing, this adherence to some stylistic imposition? Really?

Were you guys really so starry eyed idealistic that concerns over style overrode all? Jeez, I hope for your sake that you climbed for fun and to hear the wind whistling through the holes in your head, like most sensible climbers! Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!

See, while I love a good ethics discussion, ethics are not the point of my climbing, not remotely, never have been and never will be. I would not say, for example, that "if I can't trad I refuse to climb at all." Nope.


Dingus, let's see... No we weren't starry eyed or idealistic at all, on the contrary - we were actually being pragmatic as hell when we adopted a "without a trace" ethic for the very realistic reason of trying to preserve the climbs we were developing.

In fact, given the rock where we learned was pocketed with no cracks and seeing the route was almost harder than doing them we purposely climbed without chalk because it would totally give away the route. Yeah, I know that's the antithesis of crack climbing or today's taped gym routes, but half the beauty of these routes was being able to say there is a route right here and trick one is do you have the eye to see it, trick two is do you have the goods to climb it.

This is a very different experience from most climbing areas. Developing an eye was half the deal there as we walked under most of those climbs for several years before we had chops enough to even see them, let alone climb them. We also mostly climbed steep hangs and roofs as we didn't have much in the way of vertical walls and we often toproped routes rather than bolt them (some of these toproped routes had 20'+ horizontal ground falls from roofs at the cruxes they were so overhung) so hanging really wasn't an option anyway. Our routes by and large weren't like delicate, near static face climbs, or steadily motoring (or in my case thrutching) cracks - they are full on heading upside down, swinging, dyno-monkey contraptions loaded with heel/toe hooking, kneebar no-hands rests, and our general objective was to spend as much time with our feet above our heads as humanly possible.

While we deeply held both the "without a trace" and the "ground up, no hanging" ethic it wasn't some sort of foreground obsession always on our mind, but a set of assumptions that we didn't really think about at all - we just climbed and had a gas putting up route after route. And given we basically never climbed straight, ever, keeping some intellectual track going was pretty much out of the question. If you'd talked to us about all this then we more than likely would have scratched our heads and said, "and you'd screw up the rock and hang from your rope for what reason...?" kind of at loss for the what the point of it would be. And hey, old habits die hard I guess and I kinda like these old habits. Must be why I was wearing Fires and not using chalk when we did Epinephrine two weeks ago...

In reply to:
I didn't quote it but you hoped for a rennaisance in trad climbing or words to that affect. Why? Why is it important that others adopt your stylistic creed? I'm not saying you're foisting them upon unwilling recepients, you don't come across that way.

But while I don't climb strictly to adhere to some creed concerning safety equipment, which is the sum total of the entire debate, a freaking safety debate haha, I also don't have a big desire to see others 'do as I do.' Part of me doesn't even want others doing as I do.

Other than to respect local ethics, of course! To my thinking, the only important climbing ethics are those designed to help us all get along and share a public resource. But I pretty much reject any path that includes no give with the take. You rule out sport climbing and you have lost an ear to your WAY. You want me to be open, I require reciprocation!


I don't rule out anything you or anyone else does and I don't give a rat's ass how people climb so long as they don't screw up the rock - it's that old-timey "without a trace" thing. I've heard rumors of a Euro turnaround in places where they're so bored with sport they're pulling all the bolts and going trad - that was more what I had in mind.

In reply to:
I guess I don't understand your jihad dude. Come on man, step into the 21st century. I started climbing on the 70's too, things evolve. Hook up with some other old timer and go sport climbing on something that really works you. Give it a try! If you hook up with some folks who know how to do it they can give you a jump start.


Again, its that old saw that, "one hundred twenty years later it's taking just about the exact same amount of time, effort, and courage to bolt every rock in North America as it did to shoot all the Buffalo (...seemed like a good idea at the time...)". Every route that gets [unnecessarily] sport bolted removes even the remote possibility that some future fool can walk up to it and suffer the mistaken illusion of having a "first ascent" experience. And that experience is what is consumed and gone forever - bolting sport routes is a penultimate consumer act that [more or less permanently] commodifies rock (especially in small crags). Also, concentrations of sport routes draw crowds, dogs, noise, trash, and access problems like flies.

Did that sound Jihadish...? Well, if so I hear a call to prayers every day even if the infidel hordes intent on their righteous crusade to bolt every rock into a submissive convenience* are unstoppable as a drunken cheerleader on a Cheney highball...

    *con·ven·ience ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-vnyns): n. The quality of being suitable to one's comfort, purposes, or needs: the convenience of living near shops, schools, and libraries.

    1. Personal comfort or advantage: services that promote the customer's convenience.
    2. Something that increases comfort or saves work: household conveniences such as a washing machine, an electric can opener, and disposable diapers. See Synonyms at amenity.
    3. Chiefly British. A lavatory.

In reply to:
I've recently climbed with a 60+ year old retiree who leads stout 11's and works 12's. He also has sent some of the proudest trad lines in the state too.

I think that dude ROCKS! He climbs freaking circles around me, on ANY terrain! Friendly to strangers, not an unkind word to say about anyone it seems. I want to be more like him, not less. I have a long way to go...


That dude sounds like he rocks and more power to him and you. This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks). Bottom line, for me personally, is that, with notable exceptions, most sport routes are boringly one dimensional (minus the dimensions of self-reliance and gear stealth). I'm just hoping to be lucky enough to still be tradding away when I'm 60+ -- but I'm sure by then I'll be too embarrasingly old school for my wife to let me out and about on public lands...


dingus


Dec 8, 2004, 9:09 AM
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First of all healje, you are a pleasant person with which to disagree. Salude!

In reply to:
If you'd talked to us about all this then we more than likely would have scratched our heads and said, "and you'd screw up the rock and hang from your rope for what reason...?"

I don't say this to be unkind, but your distinction point here, hanging on a rope, is SO ARBITRARY! You talk about it like its some sort of logical dividing line, but from where I sit, comparing hang dogging to your ideal of free soloing, means the use of any rope is CHEATING! If you lead using a rope and fall, dude, you are totally hanging. Yet because you either lower to a stance or to the ground and begin anew, you tout that as some sort of quasi-free-soloing ethic? You cheat and decry my cheating at the same time. Makes my head spin it does!

In reply to:
Must be why I was wearing Fires and not using chalk when we did Epinephrine two weeks ago...

So you own a pair of fires and went climbing 2 weeks ago. I own a pair of fires too. For a while this fall they were the only rock shoes I could worm over my swollen ankle. So what?

In reply to:
I don't rule out anything you or anyone else does and I don't give a rat's ass how people climb so long as they don't screw up the rock - it's that old-timey "without a trace" thing.

Old timey eh? Not as old as many portray that's for sure. Translated- I don't give a rats ass how people climb so long as they don't sport climb.

In reply to:
I've heard rumors of a Euro turnaround in places where they're so bored with sport they're pulling all the bolts and going trad - that was more what I had in mind.

My reading of European climbing history, a far older and deeper history than ours, seeing is how they invented this sport, suggests that equipping routes was happening from the git go Bro! I can cite specific examples but it's unnecessary. These equipped routes preceed anything done on this continent in terms of technical rock climbing. They are tradder than trad... that's right. Equipped routes in Europe predate equivalent difficulty American routes on almost every front. It can be argued that this ground up, leave no trace ethic so readily tossed out as trad is in fact a radical product of the 60's and 70's. So all this talk (from others, not you) about over bolted and over equipped routes in Europe representing some sort of decline is a stretch.

In reply to:
Every route that gets [unnecessarily] sport bolted removes even the remote possibility that some future fool can walk up to it and suffer the mistaken illusion of having a "first ascent" experience.

What if all those fools have no desire for a FA experience of the sort you pine for? Is it OK for them to have a sport too? I don't know, but in these parts there is little conflict over resources. The qualities that lead to good sport climbs don't typically lend themselves to ground-up trad climbing anyway. Ie they are most often practiced at segregated areas.

In reply to:
And that experience is what is consumed and gone forever - bolting sport routes is a penultimate consumer act that [more or less permanently] commodifies rock (especially in small crags).

Why should the traddy get to consume it then? If it is so precious, better that no one climb it at all. That is the only logical conclusion to this tack.

In reply to:
Also, concentrations of sport routes draw crowds, dogs, noise, trash, and access problems like flies.

Of course, like Yosemite Valley, and Eldo and the Gunks. Damn sport climbers!

In reply to:
Did that sound Jihadish...?

No, I didn't see you theatening a holy war.

In reply to:
Well, if so I hear a call to prayers every day even if the infidel hordes intent on their righteous crusade to bolt every rock into a submissive convenience* are unstoppable as a drunken cheerleader on a Cheney highball...

Oh stop it. The river you're crying is getting my dairy boots wet.

In reply to:
This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks).

Right on man. Guess what? I have no desire to climb a 5.11 r route. At all. Don't care and I doubt I ever will again. As proud as that accomplishment is, and I can respect the skill needed to do it, represents what to the community? Another line that will be climbed by precious few. There are lots of those routes in Yosemite. I applaud them. And there are no lines either. Whereas the bulk of your traddies are lining up for routes like Nutcracker and Serenity Crack. Damn few people really and truly desire to climb hard runnout trad routes. But in your talk of consumption, which is the greater greed... a 5.11 safe sport climb enjoyable by the climbing prolateriat or the 11r headfest that only a few will dare? Who has truly squandered what? Is that even a valid plank to argue from?

I would submit that neither can make the greater claim of conservation. Not in terms of route possibilities anyway. I see little problem with some convenience oriented climbing. I don't interpret the word 'convenience' as 'pact with the devil.' I don't see the resource crisis. I do see a lot of strong climbers having fun in the sun. They don't leave trash behind and they have squandered nothing.

Lastly, with the government push for user funding of public resources, land manager concerns over climber impact are at the very bottom of my list of worries. As a paying customer, they damn well better deliver what me, the paying customer, wants, or they will find themselves out of a job. That's the ultimate result of user fees... eventual user control.

Cheers Bro!
DMT


kalcario


Dec 8, 2004, 10:52 AM
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*This is a very different experience from most climbing areas. Developing an eye was half the deal there as we walked under most of those climbs for several years before we had chops enough to even see them, let alone climb them. We also mostly climbed steep hangs and roofs as we didn't have much in the way of vertical walls and we often toproped routes rather than bolt them (some of these toproped routes had 20'+ horizontal ground falls from roofs at the cruxes they were so overhung) so hanging really wasn't an option anyway. Our routes by and large weren't like delicate, near static face climbs, or steadily motoring (or in my case thrutching) cracks - they are full on heading upside down, swinging, dyno-monkey contraptions loaded with heel/toe hooking, kneebar no-hands rests, and our general objective was to spend as much time with our feet above our heads as humanly possible.*

Where was this, how hard were the routes, and how did you eventually protect them?


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 11:47 AM
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Dingus,

I think the whole of our discussion comes down to two essential points for me:

1. Bolting: I have a basic problem with the Judeo-Christian, "I's paid my money, now...", consumer-oriented, 'God put it all here for me to use (consume, abuse) as I please' perspective embodied at the root of both bolted sport climbing and your comments in general. When two people walk up and climb a rock and it is forever altered by one and left unaltered by the other exactly who is doing the imposing? Clearly, it's the one that permanently altered the natural state of the rock. A line of [grid] bolts has a lot in common with cigar smoke and dog shit - perfectly fine, you think, if you're the one leaving them - not so great for for folks that prefer clean air or are trying to take a walk in the park. I don't climb or put up routes as a community service - I climb purely for my own enjoyment and to escape your 'community' and feel no obligation or desire whatsoever to build on ramps for the masses to follow. I really don't care if anyone else ever climbs my climbs. In fact, if the bolts disappeared overnight ebay would be flooded with climbing gear and we'd instantly have 80% fewer climbers and that would be just fine with me. What's next, multi-player sport climbing video games and wheel chair ramps for ADA compliance (yeah, I know - Jihadish)?

2: Hanging: I admit, while having done my share of free solos, I've always gravitated towards using a rope and life. But I try to climb as if I weren't using one and that's the experience I like. I fall and go back down because bringing the ground up to a move (hanging) essentially reduces it to a [aerial] bouldering problem and doesn't require nearly the will or emotional crank ground up requires, though I will grant you that passed a point somewhere up above 12+ ground up is no longer viable. I understand you can wire the actual moves / route faster, but only at a cost I personally think is too high if you really want to develop and maintain the skills and headset for trad.


fracture


Dec 8, 2004, 1:33 PM
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In reply to:
This fall myself (52), a 60 year old, a 50 year old, and a young Texan put up a new five pitch 5.11c R rated trad route (5.10a C2 R for about two weeks).

So you used hangdog tactics? :lol:


kalcario


Dec 8, 2004, 2:50 PM
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*I fall and go back down because bringing the ground up to a move (hanging) essentially reduces it to a [aerial] bouldering problem and doesn't require nearly the will or emotional crank ground up requires, though I will grant you that passed a point somewhere up above 12+ ground up is no longer viable.*

The problem with never using the rope for upward progress (including practicing moves without lowering) is that you'll never get to the point where will and emotional crank are *unnecessary* to climb 12+ or harder ground up and/or on sight.

Hangdogging inarguably makes you a better climber. Period. The fact is that HANGDOGGING SPORT CLIMBERS are pushing trad climbing standards far beyond what the best trad climbers of the 80's ever dreamed of (Dihedral Wall, Salathe free in a day, etc).


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 3:47 PM
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Fracture,

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the free vs. aid climbing deal - it's pretty simple, aid climbing is a separate activity entirely that represents a deliberate cessation of free climbing and just happens to use more or less the same gear for upward movement.

Intentional hanging while free climbing whatever you call it, dogging, frenching, etc. is simply a lack of, or different, style ethic depending on your perspective.

One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other...

As for the route in question we encountered three points of aid we considered impossible after lots of falling. Two appeared impossible and the third was unadvised moves up an overhang with loose blocks. The first we found an alternate approach moving out from the corner and swinging the arete; the second we came up with an way less than obvious alternate technical solution; and the third we determined that the three blocks/flakes would (for now) interlock and wedge in place under weight once you had both hands on the top of the left block of the three and so now goes free after you "set" the blocks which are directly over your head, hence the R rating.

----------------------------------------------------

kalcario

Again, I have no doubt that dogging is the fastest route to 12+ land and I see you do a lot of hard routes - that approach just doesn't hold interest for me at the moment, though who knows, maybe I'll change - but if I do it will be a deliberated and intentional change of style ethic (and probably hanging on trad gear, not bolts) - not all that different from deciding to switch from free to aid climbing.

But I'm curious as to what's been the percentage mix between trad and sport for you as you've gotten better? Personally it doesn't surprise me that top sport climbers end up doing trad or deep water eventually just for the sense of risk and self-reliance for a change...


kalcario


Dec 8, 2004, 4:17 PM
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*But I'm curious as to what's been the percentage mix between trad and sport for you as you've gotten better? Personally it doesn't surprise me that top sport climbers end up doing trad or deep water eventually just for the sense of risk and self-reliance for a change... *

Me? Trad/big walls from '74 to '88, sport after that with some trad guiding and "date climbing" thrown in. Don't really see too much "risk or self-reliance" in free soloing 7 or 8 bodylengths above deep water, unless, of course you can't swim...plus I was always more reliant on the gear when trad climbing in Yosemite, and I feel more self-reliant now when sport climbing. On trad in Yosemite you know when you leave the ground that you practically never have to run it out, because there's almost always a good placement in your face. I'm more haired doing actual hard moves above a bolt on a sport route than I ever was on Astroman or the Rostrum, basically you never have to actually "go for it" on those routes like you do on sport because of the Gear-Anywhere-You-Want Factor.

*Our routes by and large weren't like delicate, near static face climbs, or steadily motoring (or in my case thrutching) cracks - they are full on heading upside down, swinging, dyno-monkey contraptions loaded with heel/toe hooking, kneebar no-hands rests, and our general objective was to spend as much time with our feet above our heads as humanly possible.*

Where, how hard, what gear?


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 5:17 PM
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In reply to:
*But I'm curious as to what's been the percentage mix between trad and sport for you as you've gotten better? Personally it doesn't surprise me that top sport climbers end up doing trad or deep water eventually just for the sense of risk and self-reliance for a change... *

Me? Trad/big walls from '74 to '88, sport after that with some trad guiding and "date climbing" thrown in. Don't really see too much "risk or self-reliance" in free soloing 7 or 8 bodylengths above deep water, unless, of course you can't swim...plus I was always more reliant on the gear when trad climbing in Yosemite, and I feel more self-reliant now when sport climbing. On trad in Yosemite you know when you leave the ground that you practically never have to run it out, because there's almost always a good placement in your face. I'm more haired doing actual hard moves above a bolt on a sport route than I ever was on Astroman or the Rostrum, basically you never have to actually "go for it" on those routes like you do on sport because of the Gear-Anywhere-You-Want Factor.

I see, yeah, the valley is all about cracks that's for sure. If that is your background than I bet sport/face/bolts does seem like a big difference. As for the deep water - that's more about self-reliance than risk; freeing aid routes is where I was more referring to risk.

In reply to:
*Our routes by and large weren't like delicate, near static face climbs, or steadily motoring (or in my case thrutching) cracks - they are full on heading upside down, swinging, dyno-monkey contraptions loaded with heel/toe hooking, kneebar no-hands rests, and our general objective was to spend as much time with our feet above our heads as humanly possible.*

Where, how hard, what gear?

Hint: Climbing Magizine - March/April 1978...
Rock 'n Road - pg. 141

I don't have a scanner or I'd scan a couple of pics in...

era: '74-'76
routes: 5.10 - 5.13
gear: cliff/climb dependent - tope rope / death fall top rope (one broken back) / trad
[no harnesses, barefoot or EB's, no chalk]


kalcario


Dec 8, 2004, 5:35 PM
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*Hint: Climbing Magizine - March/April 1978...
Rock 'n Road - pg. 141

I don't have a scanner or I'd scan a couple of pics in...

era: '74-'76
routes: 5.10 - 5.13
gear: cliff/climb dependent - tope rope / death fall top rope (one broken back) / trad
[no harnesses, barefoot or EB's, no chalk]*

Where, what gear?

Yes I know we had EB's and no harnesses back then...what is a "death fall top rope"?


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 6:00 PM
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In reply to:
Yes I know we had EB's and no harnesses back then...what is a "death fall top rope"?

Ah, a top rope for a roof on a cliff so overhung that the top rope doesn't fully engage until after the crux or that swings you 30-50 feet or so to the mid-point before entering the trees. We took repeated 23 foot horizontal ground falls at the crux on one roof where the rope didn't engage fully until you were past the crux to the lip; and one guy broke his back on a tree on another (he made it out through the trees ok, but the one we always worried about got him on the way back in...). And we also soloed one called "Leaves of the Failing Faith" by piling up a 10' high row of leaves under the roof because it was immediately on the shoulder of a busy park road and you'd be a grill ornament on a top rope...


kalcario


Dec 8, 2004, 6:14 PM
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I give up


healyje


Dec 8, 2004, 6:23 PM
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If you're going to give up would you sell any Crack'N Ups and LoweBalls you still have...?


dingus


Dec 9, 2004, 8:07 AM
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Dingus,

I think the whole of our discussion comes down to two essential points for me:

Cheers man. Happy holidays. Glad you found your way back into the game btw. Sounds like you're having a blast.

DMT


healyje


Dec 9, 2004, 9:46 AM
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Dingus,

Same to you! Always a pleasure.

Yes, I've been in and out of it a bunch of times over the 30 years compared to my partner who never stopped. I think this time has been particularly active and satisfying because last year I didn't get to windsurf or climb or anything else - I was commuting by train between PDX and SEA doing 80-100 hour weeks. Then on weekends I was coming home on a remodel of the kitchen and living room that we took down to the studs and rebuilt back up with new plumbing / hvac / elec / windows / etc. We basically had no life last year. With the work completed this year the three of us have just been liberated to have a life and play again. Nothing like endless grueling work to make climbing seem like a whole new experience.

At 52 there might also be a tinge of "last harrah" in the mix, but then I met and climbed with guys older than me this year (like your friend) and saw the blurb on the 82 year old guy leading 5.10 in the valley so now I'm thinking maybe I'm being a wuss and need to get on a march to get all my old chops back.

I am at the point of deciding if I want to break back into the 5.12 zone or not and if I decide that in the coming year how I do it will depend on how much time I have available, who knows, if time is short I may have to try the dogging approach to training in the gym that has obviously worked for kalcario and others. Hey, maybe even try bouldering (egads). But I'll probably still climb ground up trad outside. But maybe then, as kalcario suggests, 5.11 and up trad would be less demanding. There is some possibility that I'll be in Mexico early next year and if so I might have to experiment some with the idea at Potrero given I understand it's all sport.

Happy Holidays and a Vertical New Year to you and everyone else here...

Joseph


kristibobclimbs


Feb 3, 2005, 10:34 PM
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Subtle.....I think I love you!I would have to agree,any type of climbing rocks and the only people who suck are those that DON'T climb.I have tried sport,trad and bouldering and I love them all,I definitely go through phases of preference towards one in particular,but i will always be active in all three.Respect your fellow climber!Seriously now people live and let live,no snobs allowed!


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